First I want to apologize ahead of time to Rena, she is wonderful and her designs and textures are fabulous bar none as is her customer service. My issue is with The modeller of these products and the store "support" not the clothing design or the gorgeous textures I'm sure this will open a can of worms but I personally feel that a clothing item for vicki should fit a default loaded vicki. JeffH says it should be modelled to the base mesh (so that means create Stephanie's clothes on michael ok). As the image shows this product doesn't properly fit a default Vicki. JeffH says I have to turn off the soften hip morph (damn that's ugly!). He then suggested I contact the creator to request a soften hip morph for the items. I explained to him that when I contacted the merchant he was curt and borderline rude. I had gotten a one sentence reply referring me to Clint. When I asked if he was going to fix the issues he again referred me to Clint and Jeff. Jeff's response? "I think maybe you and the merchant have a personal conflict going on. I suggest that be put aside and try to work it out between you." Now why would I buy an item from someone I have a personal problem with? Much less buy 3 items?

If the showing through above were the only issues I'd shut up but due to the fold look on the sides (which does look lovely in a straight on pose) there is the crunching seen here in this image. I have been told this is not an error or bug but is intentional - I argue that it is crushing and not folding.

last image showing it posed. The awful thing here is that I actually love this set and I bought from this vendor because I had admired his work for awhile and finally when seeing this gorgeous package decided I had have it!

I also bought the Gothic Pants and Shorts and had problems with them as well. The top references an incorrect file but then loads anyhow - it just throws up an annoying error message (how'd the tester miss that it's pretty obvious?), but it does load. The gothic pants load but are "unseen" they keep suggesting corrupt rsr files but that isn't the issue here, I of course deleted those prior to saying anything. This is often caused by a geometry file that is in the character folder instead of the geometry folder. It's a p4 thing that happens rarely I know that, this is the first time it's happened to me actually. This is why some stores require the obj to be in the geometry folder. The response was that the item was created in Propack and it puts the obj in the cr3 folder. That's fine but this product includes rsr files so it was intended for use in Poser 4.03 at least, Yes I could edit the cr2 and move the obj - but that isn't the point. The issue with the Top is not a problem as Jeff agreed it was an issue. The point is that the error is there and if I could see it and if Jeff saw it how did it get passed? As far as the gothic wear if you buy rena's great textures for that and use her re-mapped versions there are no issues with them. My point to all this is that I am severly disappointed in the testing the merchant support (or lack therof - except for rena) and the response.

I wold leave negative feedback but since it has to be approved by the vendor what good will that do?

excuse my typos - it's been a long day (and you should all be used to them by now anyhow lol)

just curious LadySilverMage, is that Vicki 1/2 or Vicki 3 in your picture? I tried converting some of my older Vicki 2 stuff over to vicki 3, and noticed hip problems simular to what you have in the image (when applied to vicki 3). So im wondering if this is one of those things that the person just 'marked' as a Vicki 3 thing without verifying that it would work properly with Vicki 3 first, mentioned something like this early on when vicki 3 first came out that had happened with a merchanise thing, and it was fixed pronto. So was just curious if it's v3 your fitting it to or v2 and if its v3 do ya get the same results with v2? Just curiousity here, its kinda a cool concept, the model but if it doesn't work, who'd want it?

It's vicki 2 and the outfit is created for vicki 2 of course. It is a very cool model and the headpiece is absolutely gorgeous, all it needs a bit of adjusting to be fabulous.

ah thats a bummer then :/ well hopefully the merchant who made it will fix the model. I agree models that weren't made Explicitly for a poticular morph set should fit the default figure. I've made items for both, but if its for a 'morph set' only i let people know right in the description.

Well, that's one off of my wish list :( Sorry you are having problems with this LSM, but thanks for the warning. I agree, that looks like crushing of the mesh and not some type of aesthetic "folding" of the material. My next question is, where were the beta testers (both Rendo and for the merchant) and why didn't they see these rather obvious problems? And yes, it should fit the default model without anyone that purchases it having to do anything to it. Anything less and the product is not ready for any store. I'm not understanding the response of the team here...that disturbs me also. Pendy

Maybe he will create a soften hip morph for it, and maybe a few other adjustments as well - I can think of someone (netherworks) who could do some really fabulous morphs and adjustments to an outfit like this. But even just the hip soften morph would make this outfit well worth the $20.00 and have me singing his praises (ok maybe not that far considering his curt response - but I'd be happy as a clam). Well that and move the danged geometry files where they belong for a product that is aimed (&the use of rsr files means it was) at Poser 4.03 users. I'd buy his entire store then as he has some wonderful design ideas.

There are more products than I like to think of that don't have the geometries in the Geometries folder, which is very frustrating. Why not adapt P4 standards for all Poser products? I also hope he fixes them, it's a gorgeous set. Until then I'm tired of editing cr2's for purchased products and will have to pass on this one. :(

THANK YOU Judith!!! Honestly Jeff made me feel like I was too picky to expect that in a Poser 4 file (he probably didn't mean to put that's how it seemed) and that I should accept it because it was created in propack. He also didn't seem to realize it would cause that problem - which was more frustrating.

There is no "Crushing" or "Crunching" and the clothing fits on a default victoria if you set the hip morph to zero.

Close up of the folds.

Of course not...... Again you are asking that we change the "out of the box vicki" to fit the outfit and you ignore the other two items that have the geometries in incorrect folders for P4 - and as you can see by judith's comment I'm not the only one that can happen to.

yes the folds are very lovely - in a straight arms akimbo pose. These weren't extreme poses either in fact I used the DAZ ones for these images. Guess I'll render a wide hipped vicki in a temple with straight legs and arms akimbo - I'll give her an appropriate vacant stare and call it NWHVIATAA (naked wide hip vicki in a temple arms akimbo). After that I'll render vicki weearing the Gothic pants - I won't put a nudity tag on it because of course the pants are there and if you can't see them it's not my fault because the pants were made in Propack and all.... (yes that is dripping sarcasm you are reading) But I do have to agree that for whatever reason the outfit always looks better on the left than it does on the right.

Gee, it's not a tough change Jeff, just a few lines of text. And you've already got them doing the textures from the Runtime directory last I heard, why not implement geometry standards? 2 lines of text is all it would take.... and moving the obj to the geometries folder (which is really it should be anyway... and textures in textures and so on and so on) I realize it's not your product, but is that such a high cost to pay for a happy customer? I'd do it without thinking twice.

Oh, btw, I wasn't suggesting that you specifically do it Jeff :)))

Jeff, there really is no reason why a purchaser of a product should have to alter that product in order to get it to work. That's like having to alter a piece of clothing to fit you after you purchase it when you have been told it will fit just fine at the store...the only good thing about the clothing store scenario is at least you can try it on before you purchase it. And Judith and LSM are correct, I'm also one that is tired of having to either edit the cr2's or move the files around because they are incorrect to work for P4. I think adopting a few standards for the store wouldn't hurt. And another side note, if that is what it takes to make the product work correctly and as advertised, then someone should have let the merchant know to add that to the readme file. If that had been done, this whole thread probably wouldn't have happened. Again, it goes back to standards being set for products sold in the store.

that should read it looks better on the right than it does on the left.... Please excuse her wide hips and ignore that bulge - it's just a fold.... Judith I am actually talking about different issues with 3 different products from one vendor here. I can't show the issue with the shorts of course because they don't show up..... The POWL does load correctly - my issue on that is that the bodice doesn't fit a default vicki and Jeff here believes that a default vicki is one with the soften hips dial *changed* to 0 while I (and the others that have commented here and elsewhere) agre that it should fit her "out of the box" without any adjustments on the customer's end. Furthermore all the modellers I've shown the bulge image to believe it is an issue with the mesh and not a fold they say it looks like it's "crushing" not folding.

Both sides are the same.

see if you pose her carefully the bulging is barely noticeable and I can work around that. Just like I can move the geometry files and edit the cr2 - but customers shouldn't have to!

yes Jeff - as long as you don't move her and don't use her in her defualt shape. I'm sure it's all in my imagination - I don't know where these images came from......

LSM.. this does it I'm afraid! :( I have just responded to 3 more similar threads you've started all over the forums slandering the specific outfit despite the dozens of instant messages we have exchanged in 3D arena with full explanations ..despite all! I'm sorry but you ARE indeed on a revenge campaign against BVH because he turned down your offer to broker at your place and I WON"T tolerate this - being part of your forum staff or not! :( So I'll clear up things staight forward once and for all for everybody in here so they know what they deal with, and I will do the very same to any more further posts you plan ahead till you get sastisfied - not a warning, a fair act of justice! You told me that you were making arrangements with BVH to be part of 3DA, he told me he turned you down. Since I was collaborating with him on this items and since I had mention I might broker something to 3DArena myself for further support other than the freebies, you might have been assuming that this outfit would come out to your own store.. but it didn't! You bought the item above the first, I wrote to you telling you that you shouldn't have because you might ask me for a gift since you had given me a couple of your own items for free, I offered a friendly compensation and you chose my own texture pak for BVH's gothic pants and tops. Then you went right ahead and same day you bought those from him too! Two hours later you started bombarding me with private messages in 3DArena full of complains about the outfits models and same time you were doing the very same thing all over all forums, ANY place, despite the explanations and help I was trying to offer myself! :( I made it clear to you that the outfit was created to my own design, I had asked BVH specifically to make it VERY TIGHT on the abdomen because I wanted a protruding material trim all around and it would look silly and up on the air, totally unanatural if it was not too tight! I also offered you explanation and solution on what to do in case you have problems. Finalize your pose and then slightly adjust JUST vickie's abdmen a tiny bit on the X or Z axis if it shows a bit off because any bulgier outfit would destroy the total look and would look unatural. You kept preaching me about the way the dresses you sell at 3DA dont' have that problem or have additional morphs and of how higher quality they are of everything sold around! I tried to explain to you that a morph doesn't always work when skin shows all around the specific area.. you ignored all of what I said and although you seemed to understand all the things I had said, next day you jump to new threads all around slandering the product with the same issues that were discussed for hours the day before! :( On top of all that, the item was put on a fair trial and opinion of too many beta testers, purchasers and even JeffH and Jen the store beta-tester once again! They all tried it out with NO problem! Except YOU! I don't know how you call that in your own book.. but in my OWN book.. it's called intentional slander and revenge!Sorry! :( Rena

Yes Rena, some time ago I did approach BVH - he wasn't selling anywhere and I thought his work looked wonderful, however he wanted me to buy him vicki before I had seen what he could do, I didn't want to he didn't want to sell yet he said and I was fine with that - I had thought he and Netherworks would make a great team, but it was no skin off my nose either way. If I'd had a personal grudge against him for that I wouldn't have bought anything he created - anyone who knows me knows that. I respect wherever he or anyone chooses to sell makes no nevermind to me. I also only posted this here and one other forum, not 3 forums, because I truly want feedback from other merchants and customers - obviously I am not alone in my concept of an item fitting a default vicki. As I said above - repeatedly, if the bodice only had the abdomen protruding I would have dealt with it more than likely - I would have been annoyed but I would have dealt with it. Jeff's response to this has been to show an unposed Vicki so we won't see crunching - that's not a solution. But come on Rena we aren't talking a problem with only one outfit - I'm talking about 3 different and distinct products that I bought that had serious issues. I realize that you consider this personal, it isn't and never was. The design concept is stunning as I have stated over and over again. In fact I have been careful to state that the outfit would be perfect if adjusted. Yes I did buy his gothic pants and top - I had looked at them and not purchased them when I bought POWL. I hadn't opened POWL yet and wasn't concerned about it, after all I hadn't had any serious issues here before. Then you contacted me and I was touched, it hadn't occureded to me to ask you for it, due to your offer I decided to go ahead and get the Gothic outfits as your textures were fabulous. I contacted you originally to ask if when you textured the gothic pants you had had any problems with the invisible pants thing. I also assured you that your re-mapped version worked just fine. Then yes we got into a discussion regarding the POWL - but no matter how tight you want it to be that crunching isn't acceptable. Slander is when I say something intentionally that I can not prove with the intention to create harm or undermine business. The images above speak for themselves. Furthermore I have specifically repeated that the outfit designs are gorgeous and that I had been interestd in further purchases form him. My issue here is that an item created for a character should fit her in default mode and the store testing states it doesn't have to but that a customer should adjust the default character. Furthermore if the item had openly stated the the soften hip morph had to be turned off it would have been less of an issue - although the bulging is still an issue regardless of soft hip or not. Ultimately after your explanations of the reasons we agreed that we would never agree on it, that does not mean that I had to accept it why would you think that it does? If you buy something at the department store and teh zipper doesn't work do you accept it or take it back? I didn't know that our friendship meant I had to agree with you I usually realize that everyone has their own opinions and is entitled to them. I would have been this aggravated and frustrated no matter who had created the product and I wanted to get public opinion because as I said above Jeff is only showing images with the arms straight out.. Sadly I thought that you would realize that just because I don't agree about this product (and my only issue here is the modelling and file placements) that didn't mean I was slamming you, your work or

No.. it is not slander if you do not agree with somebody LSM.. but once you are a friend to somebody that you don't consider this any of her personal fault.. you just ask privately for a refund since you're not at all satisfied with your purchase and you get it.. you don't post again and again about it day in and day out.. unless hurting the product or that friend (intentionally or unintentionally) makes you feel somehow better ! :( I could post here all around test images myself - as saved from the pz3 files I created while working on the outfit textures - where Vickie is NOT at default pose and the outfit responds same way as JeffH's images - your renders truly bebuffle me.. but that would be no further good than keeping the flame alive.. and honestly, as I said the night before, I can think of far more constructive ways to spend my time than arguing in endless threads! :( So this is my last word to any post old or new concerning this issue! I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel! :( Rena

I agree with that rena - but I don't want a refund - I'd prefer to see the item fixed it's gorgeous. You can only offer me a refund on POWL - but what about the other two items I purchased as well? I will use them only because I have your rempaped versions which work flawlessly. I hadn't intended to post to these today at all - until I came on and encountered attacks of a more personal nature. I did not get personal with anyone on these. I specifically pointed out the awesome designs - and instead of the issue being resolved by BVH - in offering refunds or the store staff I have been treated as if I had an agenda and been threatened with "payback"

I suppose a customer shouldn't have to change the morph settings on an "Out of the Box" Victoria, but we all do for good reason.

Really Jeff that is the best response you can come up with?? Even if one uses the character used in the promo images you have to adjust it as is doesn't fit that character correctly either. At least that is what Kayjay said and she has both the outfit and the character used in the promo images. So what about the Geometry placements? Not a word on those at all of course. And lastly what will you do about his personal attacks of calling stormrage and my staff "thugs" How about his threat of payback? BOth are violations of the TOS and more serious than a certain word that was used against you and resulted in a temp banning. Or is it ok because I own 3DA??

Please contact the Forum Manager if you feel the TOS has been violated.

Thanks.

-Jeff

Attached Link: http://www.pixelfader.com

Don't buy any more renderosity products. I mean come on now, most of these products are dirt cheap and i know it's the end of the world if you have to actual put a little work in to get the renders you want. This was obviously a witchhunt, anyone can see that.

Hey pixelfader - first of all that's a TOS violation and secondly the product was sent by rena to a non-biased modeller who has found that the mesh is broken - so why don't you get your facts straight?? The POWL is $20.00 and it is broken. I wouldn't have been so pissed off it had only been the soft hip morph issue. But again - it has been proven by the non-biased modeller rena sent it to to be a badly created mesh. The reason the mesh is worse on the left is that is where it was apparantly seamed together. I don't know who you are (and don't frankly care to) but those who know me know that I wouldn't have thrown a fit if there hadn't been serious issues. Nor do I have any problems with postworking an image. Proving again that you don't know the first thing about me (maybe before jumping into things you should know a bit more about what is actually going on??). But you are more than welcome to spend your own money on a faulty product/s. No matter how BVh spins it it doesn't negate that, not does it change the fact that I wouldn't throw my money away and support an artist in any way if I had issues with them. Get real - very few people are willing to throw their money away on something so petty. If anyone had a grudge it was BVH himself and not me. His post was actually very enlightening....

No name calling please. Stick to the issue or warnings will be handed out...

I'm sorry but there's seem to be here some major misunderstanding that needs to be cleared out to avoid wrong impressions! The item was NOT sent out to that modeler friend of mine for testing by me EVER! I offered it to him as a gift but he declined because he had already bought it with another user name himself for testing purposes of his own! Additionally.. I would like to point out that a pak of 19.90 is not considered money down the drain when it also includes full detailed texture pak as well, for everything it includes! JUST textures sell that much or more from other vendors... so let's be careful when we're in anger of what we say and how we deminish other people's hard work and endless hours they've spent on it! Go on now... and sorry for the intermission! Rena

LOL, Rena I just realized the misconception and it was on my part - I was actually coming back here to clear that up lol (was in ICQ when I realized I was mistaken in that regard and just getting back in here to correct it). I'm sorry for my misconception on that. He had said you sent it to him and he was testing it - so I thought that is what he meant. I'm just sick to death of it being implied that I have some sort of agenda. Just for the record folks - if I'd had an agenda against BVH I would have bought different products - I would certainly not have purchased something co-created with Rena to use as an example! Not at all! I consider Rena a friend and despite our disagreeing on this we have reconciled this matter. She is also a moderator at 3-D Arena and I only have moderators that I find talented, honest & trustworthy. All of the things I feel Rena is! I only bought the gothic outfit at this point so I could use Rena's lovely textures. I had it in my wishlist but was waiting on it until I saw those textures. So since every purchase I made from him in some way involved Rena it should be obvious that it wasn't an "agenda" to destroy him.

Okay, I think I need to get involved in this now. Seeing as there's this mysterious person mentioned... :) Rena is correct that I declined her offer of the model because I'd made arrangements to purchase this model. She offered to let me have it as a gift from one friend to another. However, I had already made arrangements to purchase this file. So, she did not send it to me for testing, I purchased it for that purpose. I consider Rena a very close friend, and Silvermage also. I work as a moderator on LSM's site - so does Rena (we co-moderate a forum together), so I guess that means I have a hidden agenda or something, being a 3DArena "thug" or whatever BVH has decided to arbitrarily label people as lately. The reason I purchased the model is because LSM was all alone here with a file that appeared broken, she asked my opinion on it, and whether she really was going nuts. The only way I could form that opinion is if I got hold of it. Rena became aware that I was interested in the model and offered to let me have a copy as a friend, because we've known each other for years. So, there we go. As an unbiased modeller I was offered a copy as a friend and purchased a copy to test. How much more confused can you get? Now, on to the file itself. Sorry, Jeff, you're wrong, it's broken. PixelFader, there's no Witchunt here, just a customer with a file that doesn't work who certain individuals (one admin and BVH) are trying to make out to be a complete idiot. As for Witchunt, perhaps you should read the thread started by your friend and see how one really starts. If you even slightly understood the crap Stormrage has had to put up with because BVH can't get his facts straight, you might just sound a bit more credible. Now. If there is any further doubt as to the condition of this model. I have a series of 75 rendered images detailing the problem, along with the degree of movement applied and other information as relevant. I can post them here, or I can send them to whomever in Admin staff wants them. The model was put through a series of tests that used to be used at 3DCommune by their testing staff, and a series developed by Ironbear and myself intended as testing guidelines. This file needs to be fixed and any purchasers informed of the fix so they can update. This is a beautiful model and it's unfortunate that this problem exists because it limits it's use considerably. Value & Summary. Rena's textures alone are worth the cost of this file. The problems encountered with the bodice (and a couple with the leg guards) can be hidden by selective posing or tricked in post. They're irritating as all hell but not life threatening. Alone with the problems this model is not worth the money. Fixed, it most certainly is. It's beautifully made, beautifully textured and would be an excellent addition to any Fantasy collection. But, not UNTIL it is fixed and that breakage removed.

I have been in communicatations with LSM and my testing staff today. LSM and I have come to an agreement on how to handle her purchase. My testing staff will be working to resolve the problems with the products. Thanks for posting Questor. FYI, Clint

Thank you Clint for your response on these issues and a thank you to spike as well - you have both been helpful and I do appreciate it. ~LSM

Ah LSM, Your very welcome. Clint

And thank you very much Questor, for posting this. I appreciate it. Pendy

Thank you Clint. Sorry to have posted but I hate seeing two of my favourite ladies arguing. I wasn't sure whether you'd got involved in this yet, as you have I'll back off.

Questor - Would you be so kind as to send me the renders? clinth@renderosity.com Thanks in advance! Clint

Certainly. I'll pack them up and get them sent to you.

Thanks. Clint

" The model was put through a series of tests that used to be used at 3DCommune by their testing staff, and a series developed by Ironbear and myself intended as testing guidelines."

Testing guidelines for armor or cloth?

-JH.

"Testing guidelines for armor or cloth?" I just have to ask... what difference does it make?

Mesh. You don't have armor or cloth in a 3-D model, Jeffy. ;] We also came up with intelligence testing guidlines for Renderosity Admins, and then we scrapped them after we discovered there wasn't a testable quantity there. ;]

It's evident though that we ***shouldn't***have scrapped the eye sight tests for Rosity store testers, on later reflection... ;]

Ouch! That's gotta hurt!

Bifocals may help... ;] That's with pretty standard poses, such as might sold in oh... the Renderosity Marketplace? And were at one time. Care to play some more?