The other forum has alread removed my post about this forum. I guess they don't like the competition.

How's that for a mixed metaphor? Don't look for anything to change. Just go along getting the best you can out of both forums. Just don't ever say, "well, the folks at the other forum said..." You'll find life a lot easier this way. - SMT

If you're referring to the "other forum" that I think you are, they've been doing that for a long time. It's a long, ugly story that started almost a year ago. I haven't been over there in over six months. Interesting to know that they're still doing it. Ho-hum. Melanie

I removed their link.

One of the principals at the PFO also just slipped a shiv to Jack for offering to help with a proposed Poser Manual on the Poser List. This continuing behavior is less than mature and is petulant. I hope for the sake of their consciences that they never develop any insight.

It's funny you should mention that, Allie. OF course, any chance you can get to defame the PFO is one you'll jump on in a second, so it doesn't surprise me. Would you all like to know what may have led to the removal of her post? I don't know myself, but I can speculate. She came in and asked questions. Now, the way she asked them was rather condescending (reminded me a little of ALLIE, te be honest). Still people answered. Rather than offer any sort of thanks, she just continued with questions, and we still continued with answers. Finally, she posted this: "What are you users doing with your software? Are you creating cartoons, doing web stuff, are just showing it to your kids? I've only seen one good production and it's the mpeg file on metacreations website." Now, on the one hand, it looks innocent enough. She wants to know what people are doing with the software. That's fine, however, the tone, in context with her other posts, is rather cold and condescending. I gather that her main interest is in animation, since she's a producer of a small time cable show. That's cool too, but the idea that came across with that "The only good productions..." bit was that everything else was crap. The replies seemed to indicate that, yet she never offered to clarify it. Those of us who are net veterens know that it's hard to convey emotion in cold text, so we sometimes HAVE to clarify. She didn't have to, of course, but it's good netiquette. It's sad to see that so many are blind to the good that lies in the PFO. Unfortunately, people tend to be sheep and will believe anything someone says, just because it sounds good. I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I feel it's necessary to have at least one opposing POV in this thread. Take it or leave it, flame me if you will. krbtv, if you like it here and can get help, that's fine. By all means, stay. Just don't go basing your opinions on what other people say. Investigate for yourself. JonRD BTW, 20 virtual bucks says she won't reply to this thread.

I'm not an admin of any forum, and not a spokesperson as well, but I'm getting TIRED of this. I guess you are referring to your question about "another forum", and this one is STILL THERE. You can read it HERE: http://www.poserforum.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/001160.html I guess that your "show posts of last xxx days" skipped it, because no-one bothered to add any new replies for some time. Please don't blame a Forum for lack of knowledge how to navigate it - this is true for every forum, including this one here. Thanks.

Why dont people just learn to use both forums as the resources they are? Its time to end such vicious squabbling and move on. We are here to create, learn, and move on, and in and out, and back and forth. As artists, we owe it to ourselves to gain as much knowledge possible from any known source, provided its not detrimental. Whatever happened moons ago, belongs where it is, MOONS AGO! I will stand up and say right here, that I have never been ill treated in any way at the poserforum, and thats it! Renderosity has been my home for months, and granted me ample opportunity, to learn, to grow, to experience all kinds of art and opinions, and make some true friends. Its just so sad to see people squabble beneath mounds of bitterness. The internet is a huge playground. Have fun swinging. Syyd

I am in agreement with JonRD, that people are WAY TOO QUICK to smack occupants and operators of the forum, let's try and look past the owners and operators of the forum and THIER differences and look at the benefits that they offer to ANY USER! It isn't and never has been a "real" secret about my personal feelings about some of the operators there, nor is it any secret their feelings about me. HOWEVER, let's not forget the fact that both Willow and Grey, though they might not offer you the service that you desire or that you may have your own personal feelings regarding to them or how they run it, doesn't change the fact that THEY offer a service to the COMMUNITY TOO!! I reconize that and I support what both her and Ian are doing, the work that is involved and the time it takes. I don't agree with how they go about it, but that is really none of my damn business and I try not to make it my business. Peace for the Community has to start somewhere and it starts with everyone of you. A simple way in which to start that peace is by taking your eyes off of them, stop visiting them if you don't agree with how they do things. Rather than sit there and BLAST them, it doesn't solve anything, infact all it does is make it harder for the Community that visits both. Lead by example, teach through actions. Yes, I get tired at the attacks that come from some of the PFO members, but what does it solve by us doing the same thing? It only creates an endless cycle of hate and bitterness and disrupts everyone. In regards to KRBTV, don't be critical of her, none of us can really know what was implied by her statement but her. Internet language has yet to impart feelings along with text for some that haven't used for a while... sometimes the words can be dry and hard to decern the feelings implied behind them... that is why I use smiley faces or frowns sometimes it helps to express the mood behind what you write. You should try it sometime :o) I ask of everyone to do as I try to do (unless someone posts it for all to see sigh), keep your personal feelings about any other forum or operator out of your posts, spreading hate and bitterness is pointless and eats away at the Community as a whole. Yes, I may have my personal feelings regarding it, but I am also smart and brave enough to admitt that Willow and Grey work hard, as does her staff, and they all perform a service for those that visit there for the Community... which is ALL OF YOU!! Just my 2 Pennies worth, Jack

easy martin. if she is a newbie as it appears she might be then simply informing her of how the process works should do nicely. i'd also like to thank jonrd463 to take the time to speak up about the PFO. your more then welcome to speak up and defend the PFO and i would like to step in and STOP any flaming or personal horror stories of a fellow valid forum. the PFO does have some very talented and helpful users of the poser program that are exclusive there, which includes ian grey as well as the lead creator larry weinburg himself. they, like countless other web sites are excellent resources and should be visited and explored. while there is some extremely bad relations between willow and grey with jack and i personally, they do run a valueble(sp?) resource and the mudslinging that occured on both sites in the beginning of the year caused a serious rift in the community and for benifit of the community i will not allow it even one oppurtunity to return to those bloody days. krbtv, your choice of what links are on your computer is solely yours and yours alone. it is your right and i will leave it at that. this next statement is already known by most, but for those who are new, i will state it once more. it is ideal and wise to use all and every resource out there. to be a member at any, and all places you wish to be and travel amongest them as you desire. for fear of getting repeative i will stop now. ed

All I wanted to say is: If you have trouble with forum ABC, then look twice if it is really a problem at all, then try to contact forum ABC to work it out, and if they really did something terrible to you, there is still plenty of time to go to forum XYZ and cry in public... Just don't go to XYZ the-very-next-second and tell everybody that a crime has been commited against you. Just an example: 3 hours after I did this reply of mine above, I wanted to re-check this message and... it was gone! I could have walked into any other public place and shouted "Renderosity has deleted my post!!!" Well, someone just moved it to the "Complaint Forum" - no problem at all, of course... Call me old-fashioned, but I think this sort of patience is just normal behaviour in a working community - newbie or not. If I don't like the food in a restaurant, I will tell the cook before I phone the local newspaper to publish a warning... :-)

Allie- Ah! touche! Okay, yes, I admit, those were my words. The reason I said it was because I am in no position to defend or promote a site that I don't visit regularly. My experience is that I can look to the PFO for help and usually recieve it. Also, if you want to get nit pickey, what did I say that was false? Renderosity has a Poser forum. The Poser Forum (proper noun, capitalized) IS the only Poser Forum on the net. It is also the original (in name). When I said the part about it being the "right" and "only" place, I was speaking from my POV. Again, I'm just defending my regular Poser "home". Feel free to flame. JonRD

People please. We all know the score (well...most of us). A lot of us go to both places. We have eyes. We see who's doing what to whom. The recent events that happened on the Poser list is a prime example of who does what to whom. But this has nothing to do with being a forum member. You should not go to either of these forums because of the moderators. It's your fellow members that should be the deciding factor on where you hang out. ScottA

I am posting my response to all of this in a new thread because it is a LONG POST... Allie, JonRD, and others I ask that you please read it if you truly wish my view on it... Jack

I think part of the problem is that there are two basic kinds of people on the internet. There are those that take the net very seriously, and there are those that don't think anything that happens on the net is real. Those of us who take it seriously realize that there are real people, with genuine feelings and problems behind the words, and so we try to judge carefully what we say and do, just as we would in real life. Those who think that nothing which happens on the net is real assume that no matter what they say or how they say it, it won't make any difference to anyone or affect anyone. I've encountered this problem over and over again at various sites and chat rooms. There are people for whom the net is nothing but a toy, and they cannot understand that the people on the other end of the words take them quite seriously and can be dreadfully hurt by them. I don't know which krbtv is, but I'm certainly willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. That may be just the way she talks normally, and she might well mean absolutely nothing by it. If she's been misunderstood, then she should at least attempt to clarify her meaning, or just let it pass. People make mistakes all the time, but somehow on the net, condemnation is very quick and forgiveness comes very slowly.

Let's not even go into krbtv likes to email pfo members like myself with 1)questions that belong on the forum as opposed to my mailbox 2)in a short terse vocabulary that rubs people the wrong way.We are trying to be patient with you and be nice when we answer your questions.Which wasn't easy after your I've only seen one decent animation on the web comment.Have a nice day.

My name is Kimberly. My user ID is krbtv. Thanks.

kimberly, you can email me any time

Hi Kimberly :o) any questions you have, feel free to ask or e-mail me. Jack jdkammerjr@aol.com