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Carrara F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 28 3:44 pm)
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Subject: Eovia and CuriousLabs announcement.
EOVIA Corp and CURIOUS LABS Inc. Announce Strategic Partnership Press Release #21 For Immediate Release - Eovia and Curious Labs launch Carrara Studio 2 / Poser 5 Bundle - Mountain View, California - May 2nd, 2003 - Eovia Corporation, developer and publisher of leading 3D software, and Curious Labs, Inc. today announced a strategic partnership that will focus on both technology and marketing cooperation. This new partnership begins immediately with the joint offering of a Poser 5 and Carrara Studio 2 bundle. "Poser and Carrara Studio, originally developed by the same company, share the same elegant user interface, unmatched ease of use and affordability," said Antoine Clappier, CEO of Eovia. "This new partnership between Eovia and Curious Labs reunites our award winning products, providing a maximum benefit to our customers." The Carrara Studio 2 / Poser 5 Bundle begins shipping today, at a suggested retail price of US$529. "This bundle helps to bring together two very valuable tools for the 3D and Art Worlds," said Katherine Howard, Curious Labs Vice President of Sales and Marketing. "Even more significantly, it marks the beginning of a valuable partnership that will focus on future development as well asand integration as well." Pricing and Availability The English/International version of the Carrara Studio 2 / Poser 5 bundle begins shipping today for the Windows platform, at a suggested retail price of US$529. Sidegrade from any version of Carrara Studio to Poser 5: US $199 Sidegrade from any version of Poser to Carrara Studio: US $199 For more information and direct purchase, users may call Eovia in the US at 1-866-856-3775, or connect to the Eovia webstore at www.eovia.com, or contact Curious Labs at sales@curiouslabs.com or www.curiouslabs.com. About Carrara Studio 2 Carrara Studio 2 -- The Complete, Accessible and Productive 3D Solution for the creative user in the fields of Web, Print and Video. Available for Macintosh and Windows, Carrara Studio 2 is one of the most popular 3D graphics applications for modeling, animation, rendering, and special effects. About Poser 5 Poser 5 is the ultimate 3D-character design and animation tool for artists and animators. Create 3D figures from a diverse collection of ready-to-use human and animal models. Quickly output movies and images from posed figures. Poser is easy to master, affordable, and yet rich in professional features. About Eovia Corporation Eovia, a TGS company, was founded in November 2000 with headquarters in Mountain View, CA and offices in San Diego, CA and Bordeaux, France. Eovia is a young company with strong assets, and benefits from both the savoir-faire of its founders and the legacy of more than ten years of Research & Development and Marketing conducted by MetaCreations, Fractal Design, Ray Dream and TGS. Formerly the home of Amapi 3D, TGS has been in the graphics software business for over 15 years. About Curious Labs Inc. Curious Labs, Inc, a wholly owned subsidiary of EGISYS AG, designs, develops, and publishes software tools such as Poser(r), which focus on 3D human and character visualization for artists, designers, and web developers. The company is located in Santa Cruz, California. For more information, please visit our Web site at www.curiouslabs.com. EOVIA MEDIA CONTACTS North America and Rest of the World Emily Sorensen emily@eovia.com (858) 457-5359 x 111 France Laurent Billy billy@eovia.com +33 (0) 5 56 13 37 77 Germany & Austria Stefan Blomberg stefan@eovia.com +33 (0) 3 88 35 47 12 CURIOUS LABS MEDIA CONTACTS North America and Rest of the World Katherine Howard pr@curiouslabs.com Europe Wolfgang Eichner wolfgang.eichner@EGISYS.de ### Copyright Eovia 2003. Carrara, Carrara Studio, Amapi Designer, the Creative 3D Modeler, Eovia and the Eovia logo are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Eovia Corporation in the United States and/or other countries. Amapi 3D is a trademark or registered trademark of TGS, Inc. Poser is a registered trademark of Curious Labs, Inc. and EGISYS AG. Windows is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation. Macintosh is a registered trademark of Apple Computer, Inc. All other products, fonts, company names and logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners.
So what is the story about Curious Labs these days? I thought I saw something to the effect of them laying off a bunch of key people and there was nothing left but a skeleton crew to keep selling it. I guess if they are expecting a Mac version this summer, somebody besides sales folks must still be there. Does anyone know the full story?
Thanks,
Eric Winemiller
Digital Carvers Guild
3D extensions for Carrara
http://digitalcarversguild.com
Eric Winemiller
Digital Carvers Guild
Carrara and LightWave
plug-ins
I'm curious on this seamless thing. I don't recall being able to pull something from Poser seamlessly at all. I use the grouper tool, and it takes quite a bot of work to get a Poser character into Carrara and get all the textures sorted out. Not to mention the hair studio in Poser don't port into Carrara. Is there a plugin now for Carrara/Poser? JDexter
I look on this partnership with a weary eye. I used Poser 3, and Bryce 3d, and I found them (for me) entirely useless (I also quite disliked their interfaces). I started with Raydream 3d way back when, and moved soon to Raydream St. 5.5. It took some time for me to grow warm to the idea of Carraras interface (which I felt was too gooy and would get in the way), but I have finally done it. There is such a thing as making user interfaces too dumb, but Carrara is on the right side of that issue. These late developments, however, make me weary. The bridge between Carrara and Amapi, made me fear that we will never be getting NURBS and other such powerful modeling techniques in Carrara. The Poser bundle just furthers my fears that Carrara may become trivialized. On the box they refer to Carrara as the: complete, accessible, and productive 3d solution, lets hope my fears are unfounded, that it remains thus by itself, and that the package can scope from serious users, to beginners, with the ease it has done. EMC
I'm not so pessimistic... but the obvious advantage is to Curious Labs I think... Eovia is going strong with great products. And importing from Poser can be done without the headaches... problem is that its not easy when you don't know how to do it. And shaders for transparencies can be a pain, but that's solvable too. And no, you don't even need Grouper... in fact I don't use Grouper to import Poser scenes anymore. now, what do I need to do to get a Poser plugin to Carrara... arrrrgh. Once THAT exists... I may be willing to take a chance on P5. Otherwise, the hair is useless. question...does anyone know offhand if the cloth room exports? that would be useful... but I don't know if its enough to get me to upgrade.
What's the issue with P5 hair and Carrara? I can't import it as an obj but I can import it as a dxf. Still need to work out some good shaders for it but haven't spent much time on it yet. As a recent convert to Poser and Carrara fom Bryce, I have to say I am quite pleased with the two tools and am looking forward to a collaboration beyond bundling (like an import plug-in!). I just looked for a discussion of P5 hair and Carrara here but didn't find anything on dynamic hair... My current (just begun) project involves P5 into Carrara and I was planning on dynamic hair, (which I've imported once before), so I'd love to hear about any pitfalls. Thanks, Marc
Well, regardless, Poser and Carrara together is far from 'seamless'. It require a lot of tweaking and knowledge to get it done right. Now if there was a plugin like there is for Vue and Poser 4, then 'seamless' would apply. If they are going to come out with a plug-in, then that needs to be stated in the advertisments, and the plug-in should be available when the partnership was announced, not at some future date. How many people will buy this bundle just to find out there is nothing 'seamless' about it? I like Poser (Though not P5), I like my Carrara, and to see this is dissapointing since it is VERY misleading. JDexter
It is clear that a plug-in is needed to properly import Poser figures into Carrara. Since Eovia and CL have formed this alliance they should work at making the products more friendly to each other. Something like Vue 4's import filter for Poser figures would be much welcomed. I love Poser, but like a lot of other Poser users have been disappointed with the bugs and hastles of this most recent version 5. Service release patch 3 is due to come out soon, though, so hopefully it will take care of most if not all of the remaining bugs. Poser 5 can create hair as memory hoggin strand based objects. It does not readily export to any 3D program that I know of. The bright spot is that if you don't intend to render your image in Poser, you can use hair props, which with the right textures and transparency maps, look just as good (if not better in my opinion) than the new srand based hair that you can grow on an object. Daz has excellent and realistic looking hair that you can buy, plop on your figure's head and be done with it. If you are serious about creating photo-realistic humans for you scene you should seriously consider getting Poser. To me it's worth the money.
I have P4 PP ... I just haven't upgraded yet, haven't seen the need. I'm interested in the cloth room more than anything, but I need to know if it exports the cloth. Hair I usually use props or paint on. I have toyed with making furry props with Eric's Anything Grows, and that works pretty well too.
Brother and sister once again! Please just add some enhanced character interaction between the two programs and not force another major learning curve on us. If I could move textures between Poser 5 and Carrara 2.1 and back with out going threw a whole lot of setup and changes I will be a happy camper.
Plug-in for P5 and C2 is a must have! I agreed almost everyone's comments here that Its not seamless without the plug-in because of problem with obj, animation and texture-map. If Eovia make a plug-in like Vue have for Poser then it would considered seamless. Poser5 hair is useless because of the poor tools. It need professional barber hair tools; unique combs, hair spray to freeze in some spots, and curling iron. It is an issue for Curious Labs, not Eovia except import issue. Eovia, I really beg you to create that seamless plug-in and we will turn you into very extreme good business as in good exchange. Many highend 3d users will switch their softwares into seamless Carrara/Poser bundle because of easy to use and less headache. Gene
I agree on the plug in front. It is a must! As was brought out, VUE is the perfect example of how to do it. I use OSX and VUE seamlessly brings the file in, even though P4 only runs in classic. It works! Eovia, needs something like this desperately if this is to work good. My other gripes, are that Curious Labs keeps pushing the release date of P5 off. I think the initial release date was Jan 2002, I think. I have also read more negative reviews on P5 then positive. It seems P5 has a really bad reputation for requiring a super computer to run acceptably and people complain a lot about how unstable it is. This makes me worry that my Dually G4 won't be enough to run it acceptably. I sure hope they don't disappoint the Mac users... Regards, PAGZone
In lieu of a full blown poser to carrara plug-in, a useful intermediate step would simply be something that allowed you to associate shaders with materials on import. When working with poser, my process to date has been to group it and save the map file, import, and get the shaders right for all the materials. Then there are typically reposes and reimports. For these, I reimport and drag all the correct shaders over the right body parts: simple but tedious. Once my map and shaders are ready, reimporting would be a snap if there was someway to automatically associate existing shaders and materials. For me, anyway, since I reimport several times (and might do so more if it was easier), the bulk of the time savings would be the automatic shader association. Does such a thing exist already? Marc
oh, I really do need to write a tutorial I know... export from Poser as an obj file, after deciding what parts of your scene you want to export, default options checked. This will keep your scene easy to deal with. if the scene is complex, I'll do this in stages. I export my surrounding scene first as one obj. Then I export my figures one by one. I import to Carrara from Poser as a vertex object, polymesh per material checked. Autoposition disabled, disable autoscaling checked. voila, you have your scene all in the right place, but its teeny tiny Poser scale. Go to the objects list. Ungroup all the objs you see there, and then select the major parts of your scene as one object. Group them. then you can scale up the new grouped poser scene to over 2100 percent or higher, so Carrara doesn't make a mess of your uvmapping.(do that by clicking the main group for your scene in the obj) even though I have a PC, and could use grouper, I find doing the grouping from Poser itself much easier than doing it in Grouper. I just use grouper to gather my textures in one directory, but you can do that yourself by hand...
also, very important, never NEVER export the 'world' part of your Poser scene, export just the individual parts of your scene without the ground or the world... I wish I knew what its called in the english version, its called umgebung and grundflache in my version. Anyway, they are the first two parts of every poser scene. Don't export them when you reassemble the scene in the way I have described. ok, now these instructions should be Mac-friendly :)
Hi, Bijouchat, Thanks for all the info. I've always assumed exporting the world is bad but have never tried that to see what happened if you did. Regarding your other comments: I do import scaled and have not yet noticed a problem with my uv mapping. Lips, eyes, etc seem to come out in the right place. On the automatically associating shaders with polymeshes, I do get a shader per mesh and these may contain the texture maps (if there are any for that mesh) but they aren't my 'final' shader. If there is transparency, I need to fix it for Carrara and I usually need to adjust other things like highlight/shininess. I'd like for my preferred shaders to be automatically associated with meshes (just a wish list thing). Do you find the shaders created on import useful in general? I've found they need lots of hand mod. And instead of mod'ing again on import, I delete the older mesh and reimport (using grouper to strip all channels) and move my previo0usly created shaders back onto the new figure one by one. Grouper's reduction of groups really helps speed that along. Is there a better way? Thanks! Marc
the uvmapping is not messed up by rescaling on import, the relative positioning of various parts of the scene is. I am regrouping meshes by selectively exporting several obj files and then recompositing, regrouping, and rescaling the completed scene inside Carrara, without the use of Grouper. regarding shaders... I don't find the automatically created Poser shaders useful usually, except for the texture maps. I create/edit shaders and save them for reuse again by saving them back to the shader library. Drag and drop is my friend ;-) Some items such as eyelashes, eyes, etc do not take uvmapping correctly at too small a scale. I regroup objects so that I can rescale the scene to a proper size without a problem. I don't like Grouper as its too confusing for me to deal with when working with a large scene, it generates too many objects and makes things needlessly complicated. I would have to export the scene part by part to Grouper, and I discovered I can save lots of time by exporting several objs straight to Carrara. I like having the whole background grouped together as one object, etc. Yes this ends up creating a longer shader tree but this has never been a problem. (I use layers list, that solves the problem of having many materials in one group). I get finished prepping a Poser scene for rendering a lot faster this way, literally in a matter of minutes. Drag and drop premade shaders and I'm on my way to setting up my lighting and getting to the rendering room. Also Mac users cannot use Grouper, and this prompted me to think about an easier way to export (a friend of mine is a Mac user). My method is a way to group objects by their positioning and importance in a scene on export from Poser to Carrara. but if I could just read in a pz3 instead... life would be grand... g
Bijouchat it's good that you've discovered a way to import Poser Figures into Carrara, but many of us would perfer not to have to be bothered with all that. To be perfectly frank I can probably create much more realistic environments (particularly outdoor scenes) in Vue 4 than I could in Carrara by simply importing the Poser file "as is" and being done with it (but it currently only works with P4). I might consider importing Poser stuff into Carrara for indoor scenes given the better lighting options and plethora of furnishing that come with it if I could just import my Poser file "as-is" into it as well. From what I've read, though unfortunately, Poser 5 dynamic hair does not export well into other programs, that being the case a plug-in that could handle the process is sorely needed (for those of you who like the dynamic hair that is). To be perfectly honest I purchased Carrara as a modeler to make stuff for my other 3D programs, not as a final renderer. Unfortunately I just don't have the time to build basic objects from scratch, so I've resorted to pre-made models for my pictures. In regards to Poser 5, I perfer Poser 4 Pro Pack for it's ease of use and speed. The new materials room makes my head spin and P4 has a much simpler materials dialogue. Had I known that Daz was going to release their own software, Daz Studio, probably this year I don't think I would have bought P5. My advise: those of you who already have P4 consider whether the new features (dynamic hair and cloth, face room, and firefly rendering engine) are something you really want before biting the bullet. Those of you who have no Poser on your computer I think you'd do better with going with the most recent version right off the bat.
Thanks for the clarification, Bijouchat. I see where you are coming from. I've been using Poser just for the posed person, hair and clothing and doing all else in Carrara so my use is a little different but I do the same drag and drop of the shaders once there. It is do-able, just tedious. Regarding P5, I do like the dynamic cloth for certain articles. The hair is nice (yes, could be much better but for wild, unstyled hair, works great; also needs to export). I use the DAZ models so the face room isn't too useful but it is nice. I've got to say that the Daz product sounds very suspect to me. These tools don't get created all that easily. Could be a long time before DAZ gets a stable, full-featured tool. And it seems to me to be out of their 'core competency.' That is, do the DAZ folks have any experience with SW projects of this scope? They do great stuff but companies typically run into trouble when they try to do something materially different. But a second product can't hurt, especially if Curious Labs really is faltering. Marc
Tomsde, I bought Carrara as a final renderer, I do modeling in other applications that are far superior to Carrara for that purpose. I do some simple modeling in Carrara but more complex modeling I prefer using Amapi. I seem to remember a post saying you only have 1.1, I have 2.1 and its a major update regarding the renderer. I use the Global Illumination renderer a lot, it does A LOT more than the hybrid raytracer (just look at my gallery for example of that)... a lot more than P4 or P5's renderers that's for sure. I like having caustics and indirect lighting, those are features you won't see in many other 3d programs in the same price range as C2. I recently gambled on P5 but I own P4 Pro Pack and I imagine I will probably still use P4 for assembling characters and props. I hate P4's renderer, its slow and not very good. I have heard that P5 is no improvement in that area, and bah, I can get simple raytracing for free... (PovRay) I have been rendering in Carrara for some time now as a result. You can get freeware renderers that work better than P4's renderer. I only got P5 for its cloth room and its directory management, for the upgrade price I figured why not. SR3 is out now and the program has finally gotten stable enough to consider buying. If I decide P5 is nice, I may do my final assembly of scenes in there instead. But I'll still be rendering in Carrara. Because C2 has a better rendering engine than Poser. Because with plugins like Fresnel effects (part of the PPex from Lost Horizon Software) and Anything Grows, AGrooves and Shader Ops (Eric Winemuller), and Tree Druid (Zenstar software), I can duplicate some very convincing transparency and refraction, convincing displacement mapping, create lovely trees from custom presets, plus use those trees as tip objects with AGrows to create convincing outdoors scenes, features that rival plugins for big guns like Cinema4d, Lightwave and Maya. With a cheepo box of Carrara and a few cheepo addons I can get the look of 3d software that costs thousands more and is a hundred times more complicated to use than Carrara. I guess you can realise that I like this, and this is why I am such a Carrara enthusiast. Carrara won't do the work for you but if you are willing to put your mind to it, you can do some very professional 3d artwork with Carrara. I'd love to live in a perfect world but for now, if you want to import Poser figures to Carrara RIGHT NOW... and you want to do sequences RIGHT NOW... then use my method until a plugin becomes available :) I guess I removed the old saw that you can't import Poser to Carrara. Well, sorry. You CAN. I CAN. I do it all the time. Its not even hard to do once you know how. Its just a hassle where a plugin would be much smoother and nicer. The question Paul asked me directly is how can HE import easier from Poser without Grouper, with a Mac, and I believe I answered the question. For those that want to use the information TODAY... enjoy. I guess I should get to making a tutorial page as I am sick of people saying they can't do stuff in Carrara when they can. marcq... I agree with you. I for one do not think that the DAZ software will do what C2 can do anytime soon. But if it is a easy to use straight-forward posing program, it could have its following. C2 is a mature and stable product with rendering features that rival some high end software, I don't think DAZ will be getting to that level soon and its hype to even think so. But I'm looking forward to the cloth room...
I got Carrara mainly in order to model objects to use in Poser, but it looks like I need to think about the renderer too. The P5 Firefly engine is such an enhancement of the P4 that I've been happy with it. I ran into a basic problem with Poser-ready modelling in Carrara that I'd like to see a tutorial on. I assumed that the clothes modelling process would work like this: 1. Convert figure to obj and import to Carrara. 2. Take figure to vertex modeller. 3. Build clothing item around figure. 4. Use Boolean subtraction to remove figure. 5. Replace interior of clothing item with "thickness." 6. Export clothing item to obj. Two catches. First, I couldn't get the figure to the vertex room. Bijou's import switches solved that. But two, I can't do a Boolean subtraction of the figure part (rCollar) from the halter top after I build the latter. This is way off topic, but the right crowd to ask. Anyone can point me to an answer? Thanks, Mick
The Firefly Render engine in P5 is really the only things a like about it. It produces much more realistic skin tones than the P4 rendering engine. If you check out the Poser Forum there are a lot of examples online comparing the engines side by side. I can't wait for Daz Studio, which will be free! Then you will buy the modules to enhance it depending on what you intend to do with the application. Let's hope for better lighting and a good renderer.
caustics and global illumination most likely won't be free in Daz Studio, that is if you get it at all... firefly is just a raytracer, it doesn't do radiosity or caustics and I need caustics. Carrara is the cheapest bang for the buck regarding caustics and global illumination. Poser 5, Bryce and Vue do not have this feature. Vue has a better atmosphere editor granted but that's basically useless for what I'm doing, and I have figured how to generate decent environments for Carrara anyway. There's room for improvement on that though... lets hope for progress there in C3. Go check out the price for C4D or Lightwave with the appropriate plugins and you'll appreciate Carrara's value a bit more. Since I am working on jewelry and using Carrara to help generate good gemstone reflection mappings for use in P5, I find this feature absolutely essential. mick, you might want to think about bringing the figure into Amapi after importing it into Carrara. You can make stuff a lot easier with it... brycetech has a great tutorial cd for Amapi 5-6 too. (his cd helped me get started with Amapi) Amapi 5 comes with C2. Although it doesn't have support for obj, it can import 3ds and some other formats. Items I have created in Amapi 5 import perfectly into Carrara via the RDS importer, where you can then save it back out as obj. You might want to talk to Jaager though, he might have some tips regarding making clothes in Carrara. Personally all I make are simple props in Carrara. Organic stuff I do in Amapi. I upgraded to Amapi 7 and I haven't looked back... g I sooo much love dynamic geometry.
ok, thats fine. I just use Amapi as its quicker. I am sure there is probably a way to do it, I tend to use extrusion and I avoid doing booleans... The fishtank here was made in Carrara and I created it fast in the vertex modeller by extruding from a rectangle. you might want to think about doing it that way.
Bihouchat, how do you like the Amapi 7 / C2 interaction? I use Amapi 5.15 for some modeling but still am not too proficient with it (the interface is still not intuitive for me, especially on item/vertex selection). But I've been tempted to get Amapi 7, especially if it plays well with C2. I really don't care for the C2 vertex modeler. Marc
Amapi is the most crytic and difficult 3D program I've ever seen or tried to work with. I have Version 5.1 of Amapi and it doesn't play nicely with my grapphire tablet. The pen works fine with it, but I have significant drag or lag with the cordless mouse. With what I've said above I certainly did not want to slam Carrara in the least. I will eventually upgrade my Carrara to V2, but since I have no real interest in doing a lot of modeling right now, it will have to wait. It's always been my dream to develop my own series of Poser Figures, but it's been beyond my skills for the time being. My primary interest 3D is character studies of human figures, which Poser does the best by far. That's why I emphasize if any of you want to have detailed studies of human figures in your composition as far as I'm concerned Poser is the only way to go and is a great program for the money, even with P5's faults.
Waldo wags his weener wildly. Wasn't too long ago that Curious Lags was playing 'footsie' with Caligari, and saying what a great "strategic partnership" THAT was gonna be. Poser & TrueSpace bundle offer, etc.. At this point, CL might be better off cutting a deal with other software companies to GIVE AWAY "Pisser 5" bundled in with their software, and getting a cut of that other companies extra sales. Is anyone really willing to risk buying the P5 turd, as it sits the way it is right now?
Norbert, What made you think I "wag my weener wildly"? Then, YOU are the one who wags your own weener wildly! I am perfectly happy with Poser 5 and Carrara for my serious animation projects. But there are some small things that needs to be improved. Both softwares are much better than expensive ones with complex learning curve. I can afford any 3D software but some of them wasted too much of my time with all complex tools. Poser 5 and Carrara saved me 300x of my work. So I am supporting Eovia and Curious Labs on improvement for their awesome products regardless what you said because my projects are more important.
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Attached Link: http://www.eovia.com
Hi all! I have important news to share with you today. Eovia and Curious Labs are announcing this evening a strategic partnership. As most of you already know, Poser and Carrara were created years ago by the same company: MetaCreations. Both products share very similar user interfaces, the same ease of use, the same approach to 3D. In other words, Carrara Studio 2 and Poser 5 share the same philosophy. This is why I am so glad to announce the beginning of what, I believe, will be a long and fruitful collaboration between Curious Labs and Eovia. There simply no closer and more complementary products in the 3D market than Carrara and Poser! The first benefit for the users of Poser or Carrara is special prices that Eovia and Curious Labs just started to offer: - Carrara Studio 2 / Poser 5 bundle: $529 (regular $718) - Poser sidegrade from any version of Carrara: $199 (regular $319) - Carrara sidegrade from any version of Poser: $199 (regular $399) Check our web site for more information about Carrara and Poser: http://www.eovia.com Do not miss the section showing: Poser 5 morph target building in Carrara, rendering in Carrara of Poser models and Poser props modeled in Carrara: http://www.eovia.com/3rdparty/poser_carrara.jsp This offer is just a first step. Stay tuned for more news! Happy Rendering to All! Antoine Clappier President & CEO ......................................... Eovia Corporation 888 Villa Street, Suite 430 Mountain View, CA 94041 http://www.eovia.com ......................................... PS: Link to the official Press Release: http://www.eovia.com/corporate/press_releases.jsp