Well, aside from the fact his hotkeys would screw up my personal set up (lol -- no biggie, Carrara's does too), Phantast's comments in the CL Survey Follow Up post got me to thinking, and my reply sorta got outta hand. I'm not interested so much in bitching about what's wrong with Poser or comparing it to other things, but rather, in what could happen with it -- and all of us, in the process. I agree with his assessment of Poser's general design, and I think CL would as well (If I may be so bold, lol) that it started out as a Posing tool for export and has since shifted focus. I think that shift will continue a bit more, as well -- Poser was intended to provide a rapid and quick method of boning and animating figures for porting to other applications. Said so right in all the original release info (I've watched it a mighty long time, lol), that had, as a sort of side benefit, the ability to preview those set ups. The things I'd like to see most, right now (or in version 6), I keep thinking about. The Top Ten come down to pretty much this so far: - = Better previewing system (OpenGL & VidRAM use) - = The ability to add top level folders (so I can have MAT folders and MOR folders along side Pose, Figure, Face, etc.) Don't do it for me, let me do it. - = Point Lights (number one for me) - = Customizable Hot Keys - = Multiple selection - = Multiple Undo - = More accurate collisions - = Improved Memory Handling - = Copy, Cut, and Paste of objects - = The ability to browse my runtime more efficiently -- a larger panel, perhaps. During the downtime for it (from the collapse of Metacreations until about a year ago), the community that grew up around the program changed that. It had started before, but those very long years where there was no work on it sorta killed Poser's original place in the scheme of things -- all of the big apps developed their own systems, the new ones all came onto the scene with it built into them, and poser certainly wasn't going to change in the immediate future, so it sorta lost that segment of the market. When it came out, Poser was revolutionary -- truly so, as nothing had taken all the cool things out there at the time and enabled you to do what it did as fast. One of the biggest complaints I've seen is the plug-in need, lol. If nothing else, that shows just how easy Poser is to use compared to many of the built in versions of other applications. There may be some legs left there, but running is still a ways of for it. My approach to using Poser has come out of several years of reading these darn boards and using it to create training tools. Essentially, I look at Poser as a sort of theater, and I've set things up to enable me to use it as such. I have actors, a wardrobe department, a scenery department, a workshop, and, of course, a stage (that big ol screen). Now, having the ability to cut and paste would be absolutely wonderful from my director's chair. So would being able to select multiple figures and make adjustments. I also would like for there to be some sort of "stage design" mode, where I could load in the elements that enable me to create my scene rapidly -- drag and drop would be my choice, personally. Customizable hot keys would be the option I would suggest for hot-keying -- artists are notoriously stubborn about changing the way they work (hence the grumbling about the changes in P5), and they are very picky about the way they set up their tools. Changing cameras is something I rarely do, but I never have my hand leave the mouse to do so -- I can usually achieve any POV I need using the camera panel and the two drop downs for cameras -- and the addition of the camera controls above the document window was a nice touch. Small things like that are more useful to me, without dramatically changing the interface itself -- I like it, I'm familiar with it, and it is a lot easier to use than some of the other systems out there. The one thing I do not want Poser to start to resemble is a modelling application. Most emphatically I do not want that. They are cumbersome creatures, necessarily so, and totally geared towards the more engineering minded types. Maya and Mirai are two of the most annoying programs I've ever had the displeasure of glaring at, and Lightwave isn't too far behind -- those folks need to really be the ones to focus one ease of use for the typical user. This is NOT to say that Poser should not add some modelling capabilities in, only that in doing so, they should avoid following what most folks think of as standard conventions and go the route that got them started in the first place: make it easy for somene who knows nothing about computers (which is they prototypical user). Another ongoing concern I have is the constant calls to "rewrite the base code". Now, I agree, there are some really serious issues in the core code -- compatibility with current OS methods, chiefly -- that could use some revision, and there is little doubt that the code could be compressed some, but I do not think a wholesale rewrite is in the communities best interest at this time. The reason is that programmers (and those of you out there know this) hate wasting space and lines and effort. Be they good or bad programmers, it's a common thing. And much of the stuff that makes poser such a viable and adaptable tool is that it relies on ASCII file formats. These are things that NON-programmers can actually sorta play with and get to know -- they call that user friendly in some places. One of the first things mentioned often after the "rewrite it" is "get rid of ASCII". In doing so, they will cease to expose they very thing that has made much of what the community sells and thrives on possible. MAT files, MOR files, ERC, EasyPose, INJ/REM, and so forth, are all accessible to people without decompilers and lots of programming knowledge, and would not have been possible if it weren't for that accessibility. So that is not something that would be good. The other big reason is compatibility with current stuff. Core code changes mean big changes in the methods of operation. The obj format is a bloated warthog with bad gas. Get rid of it, though, and most of the products in the stores are sorta outta there. Pose files were never meant to have all those funky things in them, so lets strip them down to just the basics. Whoops, there goes the other half of the stores. Now yes, we would all expect them to build the features the community has discovered right into the new code base. But what about the ones we haven't discovered yet? What about the ones that will come out of figuring out the dynamics and material room stuff? Those changes are part of what makes the community a thriving, living, learning, growing thing. And a vital part to it, at that. I'm all for fine tuning. Let's not cut our own throats though. Right now, to me, is the most exciting time for folks who love Poser. Never before in the last 20 some odd years have I seen anything quite as remarkable as what's going on right now. This is a community of several websites and hundreds of thousands of users that has built up around a program that's essentially died and been reborn. It has developed into a sort of miniature version of the computer world in general, and this despite the fact hat the stuff it involves has been one of the background pushes for the constant development within the computer industry itself. Now there is competition not only at large, but in specific, there is a thriving marketplace of evolving content that is actually changing the very manner we use the program (anyone looked at Microcosm, lately? Really looked at what it can do? Or seen some of the huge and amazingly detailed texturing work being done out there? This stuff rivals what's being done at studios, and is art unto itself.) There is a new version coming, CL is financially sound and has backing from a more fitting partner. Shade, while still pretty much unheard of here, is an incredible package that is intentionally set up in several price points from the reasonably affordable to the competitive price arena. It has technology that if leveraged into use with Poser could really give it an amazing toolset. With the plugins developed by third parties, the rise of a strong player in the smae field, and a still growing customer base (legal or not, lol), there is a sense to me that we are about to sort of explode out there. Probably not going to happen overnight, but I think that in a few years -- say, three or so, we'll see a huge shift in the "3D" world online that reduces dramatically the division between us "poser weenies" and those "3D pros" who tend to sneer at us. This is what it's all about to me, ultimately -- bringing this amazing tool to folks who otherwise would never be able to express themselves for lack of training in the "RL Arts" or lack of a particular skill. It's not about wether you postwork or not (and yeah, I'm a no postworker, lol) nor is it about wether you think the next new proggie is going to take over or not. It's about what has been built up here, and what we do now, in our actions, and our words, and our wallets, to set up the direction for that future. We love what we do -- from Bushi's latest python wonder to UV Mapper 3 to Clothing Convertor, from DAZ to Rosity, Pros to RDNA -- this is a huge world of folks who all share a common love of being able to do something simply, quickly, and easily and still produce some of the most stunning works of art the world will ever see (though most of it still seems pretty ignorant of it). ok, enough of this. I've got kids to feed, medicine to buy, and shaders to play with. Thanks for reading this, and sorry for being so long winded.

Good points... What I'd really like is for the posing code from Poser to be incorporated into Vue. It seems the best fit since Vue already can import a Poser scene and maintain all the texture mapping. It also has a nice rendering engine and material room. Vue also does hardware accelleration very well. Cloth and Setup from P5 would be nice to have too, but those could be added as pluggins later. Since the new Poser parent company is closely related to Vue, it's possible....

Ynsaen: Good analysis. I think "rewriting the code base" is an unrealistic call to toss out baby with bathwater. On the other hand, fixing code base problems as fundamental as the screwball way Poser handles File I/O may require wandering into some otherwise core areas with a machete, and if so, so be it. I am certainly not looking for more modelling capability in Poser; I'd like to see them continue to refine their rendering tools, but if I want to lathe a wineglass, I'll do it elsewhere. There are enough demands on technical expertise in the program already, without adding modelling to the mix. The purists who look down their noses at people who "can only use Poser" are for the most part folks invested in the priesthood (you know, the grownup versions of the brat who used to chant 'I know somethin' yew don't!'). Mario Andretti probably doesn't know how to tune a carburetor, and I'll bet da Vinci didn't weave his own canvas. So we are hobbyists. So was Wm Carlos Williams. However, I think we are at a crossroads where two "hobbyist" paradigms are about to go their separate ways. The two camps are very clearly defined by the differences between Poser and DAZ/Studio, differences that are far more fundamental than a spat over getting Vickie "Face room ready." The DAZ paradigm is for us to purchase variety from them at a nominal cost. Instead of dynamic cloth, they are happy to provide us with a MFD for this character and that, at a nominal cost. If the MFD were made of dynamic cloth, we wouldn't need "The MFD for the Millenium Cat"; we could just make it fit in the Cloth room. If Victoria were "Face room ready," the market for this and that "character" would fall off quickly. The key is tools that work simply and can be understood easily. Poser is on that track. And there is the Poser paradigm: Not models but tools. Instead of selling you "Vickie's Hollywood Sleaze Greasy Do," Poser gives you the tools to create a hairdo on Judy that is potentially much more realistic and variable. Instead of selling you "Stephanie 3.12's Variant of the Funny Hat that Sort of Looks Like Something From LotR But Isn't Because Calling it that Would Be Copyright Infringement," Poser gives you easily used tools that make a generic hat adaptable. This is why the flirtation with "Content Parasite" was so wrong-headed. CL is not a "content provider" in that fundamental sense. I think it is a poor decision, not to fix the content issues in P5, because if Judy didn't have a boil on the bridge of her nose and some strangely inhuman bumps here and there, and there were dynamic hair for the brats, and the Face room had some basic missing morphs like "hooked nose" or "bulbous tip," and the provided textures weren't sketches, and the Primitives were all upgraded the way the ball and square were, many Poser 5 users would regard their 3rd-party purchases as optional. Mick

Well, the one thing I'd like to see improve most of all is the lighting rigs. Put simply, Poser's lighting stinks. What i mean is, it needs a lot more control with the ability to add area lights or point lights (as was mentioned). While they're at it, real GI would be nice to have, since faking it with dome lights or probelights is just way too time consuming. "Dome lights" take forever and a day to render, and probelighting is just a pain sometimes. Other apps are getting fast GI calcs these days, and I'd like to see it brought to Poser (but that isnt' a PRIORITY). More efficient memory management, multiple undo's, and tighter compatibility with higher end software is a must have for me. I'm satisfied with the material room, although I'd like to see them expand their preset shader database, and spruce up the GUI a bit in there. Although it would be nice to have Oren-Nayar-Blinn and Metal shaders in addition to Phong and Blinn. Ok, ok... now I'm asking too much. They'd have to jack up the price significantly. LOL

pdxjims -- I've had some similr thoughts, but a bit more involved -- I'd like to see all three programs become interchangeable to a much higher degree. Vue to have more of Poser's posiness (lol), Poser to be able to bring in some of the Vue plant systems, and Shade to have both. What Mover 5 can do now, well, holy cow. lol I still ultimately prefer bryce to Vue, but unless this slowly forming little group can rescue it, I don't know where it will be headed. mickmca -- lol -- love the description of that hat offering. Excellent insight into the direction of DAZ -- they are shifting to a bait and sell strategy , but it's a proven one. And the core content in Poser does need to be improved. I sorta hope they start doing something like "better" figures with each version of poser. I think if they had let ChrisD and that team do what they really wanted to do with the figures, we'd all be looking around going Vicki 3? Oh, yeah... But there would still be a huge demand for content. I don't think CL's decision to try for a content base was wrong, I think the methodology behind it was wrong. They aren't MS, and shouldn't try the same methods, lol. But to create a diversified revenue stream as a semi-independent entity, they do need to move into content. I think that parnterships at first, with development of a strong in house team over time, would truly create a real sense of competition among the two huge players (although I think there are some shops out there that will keep putting both to shame :D). It would also make sure Poser 7 has something to bring it to life -- I really do feel that D|S2 and P7 will engage in a pretty ugly battle that will be something sweet to be part of. Expensive, but sweet. lol fido13 -- oh yeah, baby. lol All the kinks with ram aside, my absolute biggest wish is for a point light. The "dome light" systems out there aren't only render killers, but they are terribly unwieldy and one can often achieve better effects by actually doing the lights yourself. There have been some improveents to the lights in P5 -- mostly through the addition of ray tracing and the material aspects, but a point light is essential to so much and some sort of GI would be a pleasant feature to have. As for jacking up the prices through more, shaders, well, I don't know about that. Shaders can be written, and if there was an area right now that's programmerish I'm curious about, it's shaders. I think as more and more of the community comes up from P4 into 5 or 6, we'll see a huge burst of shaders on the market coming around (and maybe a built in way to create our own, perhaps? lol) I'm watching this thread 'cause I think the people who really love this stuff will have something to say and contribute more than the usual "this sucks", and I'm really interested in what folks think.

Excellent observations all. I don't have a clue about programming, but the contact I've had with programmers on my job certainly supports ynsaen's observations :) I haven't met one yet that cares much about what users want, as long as the code is clean :) Here are my wants and desires for P6, and in order of importance,just based on using it, Vue, Bryce and the DAZ Studio alpha: 1) Use the Video Card Ram, USE THE VIDEO CARD RAM!!!! When there's an ATI Raedon 9800 with 256 MB of Video Ram installed on the computer......USE IT!!!! I just purchased an additional 512 mb of DDR Ram today and now have 1G. The people where I buy my computers couldn't believe there was actually a 3d rendering program on the market that doesn't use the Video card and the Video Card Ram! I can't believe it either, frankly. It would speed up everything considerably and would likely reduce a lot of the memory problems we all experience. Also.....OPEN GL Capable, please :) Hopefully CL's new partnership with Shade will resolve this ridiculous lack of capability. Oh....and need I add.....test it with a variety of video cards/chipsets before putting it on the market. 2) Improved memory handling and speed issues in general. Poser is really a dog and a half when it comes to memory handling and load time. I finally did install SR3 and it does improve somethings....a bit, as does adding another 512 Ram. But it still takes close to 1 minute for the silly beast to load the first time. Second time loading is admittedly quite quick....very quick in fact, but if you turn off your computer for some reason, you have to go through that god awful slow load....again! Here's an observation: I notice that PsP8 is now using Python scripting and the load time for that software has also slowed considerably from earlier versions. Is it possible that Python is the culprit? 3) The ability to copy and past objects. Vue does this so well it's not funny and what a time saver it is! I can create one terrain and then simply "copy and paste" as many more as I want/need. Same with other objects. Copy and paste of materials is also simple as pie in Vue. For me this is the biggest waste of time in Poser.....having to go back and forth, wading through a sea of libraries just to duplicate a character or prop. 4) The ability to add as many light sets as you want without Poser freaking out or having to use special scripts. When you replace a light set with a new one, Poser should "clean out" the old one, install the new one and get on with it. Lights that are easy to use and visible in the scene so you can find them, manipulate them.....and yes..."point lights". I love the lights in Vue. Take a look at how they're set up. They work great. 5) Multiple undos....absolutely. 6) The ability, if one wants to do so, to arrange character folders so that everything related to that character is viewable in one place....the poses, the props, MAT files, cameras, lights, etc. I think this is the same as ynsaen's comment about "top level folders". This would certainly speed up preparing a character. I put this one last as it's not absolutely necessary (the first 5 are)

mickmca Great description of the two attitudes. I usually call the first one "purchasive", the second one "creative", cause one's about creating and the other about purchasing.

Stewer >> ...the two attitudes. I usually call the first one >> "purchasive", the second one "creative", cause one's >> about creating and the other about purchasing. Basically, yes, though in defense of DAZ, their model focuses the creative differently. I mentioned, when D|S first arrived, in all its "alpha" glory, that there was something ominous in the fact that they are creating a binary format. This model is the reason I find it ominous. Poser is effectively open architecture, except for heads created in the Face room. If you don't like something in the PZ3 file, you can open it in Textpad and change it. DAZ models will be locked down unless you are a reverse engineer, and if you want something "fixed," you will buy a fix. Perhaps the SDK will address this concern, though the very need for an SDK accentuates the difference and reinforces the desire for control. Who gets the SDK? What will it cost? What I see at DAZ is proprietary greed with a nice insurance salesman smile. I seem to be alone in this regard. Oh well. I can't prove it, but I suspect we are already seeing a tactic that would be a little nasty. Based on using SP3 and the MDog, I suspect that DAZ is now "anti-testing" their products, by which I mean boobytrapping them so that they don't look right in P5. I opened the MDog in PP, P5, and D|S, and oddly enough, and for the first time, I could see significant degradation in the model's appearance, but only in P5. SP3 in P5 has strange, strange shoulder joints, but I haven't checked her in D|S. I'm not at the paranoia phase of this suspicion yet, just curious. M

Very interesting discussion! Regarding the Poser UI: There are two very different aspects of a good UI, that are unfortunately sometimes at odd. The first is the ease of getting something done in a program for inexperienced users. Poser does an moderately good job of that, which is better than most 3d programs I have ever used. Note that this is not the same as easy to learn, because it dos not guide the user to a deeper understanding. The second is the ability for a experienced user to set up a effective workflow. This is the part that the current Poser UI is really bad for, for many reasons small and big. For me the second aspect is much more important, because one is a experienced user for a longer time than an novice. Regarding a rewrite of the core functionality: Rewriting the core engine will definitively break some of the existing content, because much content is build around poser quirks. But I would really prefer CL would disregard compatibility and give us a tool that makes creation of new content easier, more powerful and more logical. But that is not likely to happen, because I think many other users would hate it. It is just that I like creating my own stuff more than using the stuff of others (but that is great too).

I would like to have a good dualscreen support. Love the idea to have the libraries on the second screen then. Thomas

mickmca: DAZ just released an update for the Mildog packs. Something about morph information. I got it, but haven't installed it yet. Maybe that deals with the issue you described? I think it would be a bit silly for them to purposely make their stuff look like crap in P5 :) There are getting to be more and more alternatives for product purchases including Sixus, Cubed, RDNA, not to mention merchants here and at Poser Pros who actively support P5. They may eventually not care about the "P5 only" user, but it's way too early for that now, I think.

Hi, I just wanted to post a thank you to all in this thread. It's extremely valuable insight and I just wanted to let you know that CL has read through this. Will continue to look in case additions are posted. Kind regards, Katherine

I think the BIG concern with Daz Studio is the potential conflict of interest. The Poser community has three "legs" to it. * Curious Labs (making the tool) * Daz (professional support for content) * The vendors (pro and semi pro content) Concentrating two of these will lead to a situation where V4 or whatever version may well be fully usable ONLY in Daz Studio. Now consider what would happen if the barrier to entry was such that no one else could make fully Daz Studio enabled features without Daz's blessing?

Sandoppe >>I think it would be a bit silly for them to >> purposely make their stuff look like crap >> in P5 :) That, unfortunately, doesn't make it unlikely... I have the MDog updates, which probably don't address my concerns (the ridiculous idea that you can make a vulva out of a squashed scrotum, and the fact that they apparently used a Staffordshire for their model, so all the breeds are bowlegged). We'll see. >> conflict of interest Odd way to put it, but yes. Eventually I expect to see DAZ products that are in their format and thus cannot be used in ANY version of Poser. That's certainly their perogative, and if by then they have DAZ Studio past "alpha" (whatever that means in Happy Valley speak), I still doubt if I'll buy. My 3D dollar is going into building around Poser--Shade, Carrara, AMAPI, Bryce, Vue. I don't need an alternative Poser. I am a small, if vocal, minority voice, though, and that's fine too. My money is on a new, thoroughly cleaned up P6 by the end of the year or early in 2005. I think the new blood from Japan is going to fix some things permanently. My two cents. Mick

Sorry to skew this thread a bit, but... Katherine, There's a new post (poser g5 optimized by Ede) that seems to indicate what I'd suspected for some time, which is that the Mac version of Poser 5 is not plagued with anywhere near as many problems as the Windows version. The source of course being the Mac to Windows conversion code that was written so very, very long ago. Any chance that THIS could be rewritten before anything else, so we can get responsiveness, speed, and many memory leaks, "file locks" under XP etc., fixed? All these new redesigns for the upper 2 stories of the Poser House are great of course, but if the foundation is crumbling because it's not to current (Windows) spec., then the result remains all too predictable.

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Well, actually, if you read a little closely, you'll note that we do talk about that. But it's been discussed enough that CL is more than aware of it (sorta decayed horse there), and I'm willing to bet that the windows system it's been installed on isn't quite up to snuff itself -- most OOB systems are designed for anything but 3D art, and sometimes worse for it. But even more to the point is that that port took advantage of SR3 being built into it directly, which gave it the advantages of stability that the windows users didn't have initially.

And we all do expect those things to be fixed -- have for a while, and we actually believe it will happen -- just as you do.

Should we continue to rag on the companies for the same thing day in and day out?

Right now, no. Ragging on DAZ for the joint issues with Mike3 is not going to get them fixed, and I'll bet DAZ knows all too well about them. CL knows about their issues, and they have addressed them to some point so far and acknowledged them in posts. Given what they had to run with, I think they did a good job. Do I expect them to fix the rest in Poser 6 -- or maybe even in the SR (silent prayer) -- heck yes. Will it do any more good now? no -- just keeps the pissing and moaning alive -- the sort of stuff this thread is NOT about.

This isn't about what's wrong with P5 or D|S. This thread is about where we are going with them, and where we are going as communities.

Now, onto the rest:

Are we going to see DAZ close themselves up and become their own vertical market? I think there is a bit too much suspicion and too little examination of the engines that drive this. At this point, DAZ cannot afford to make content only for D|S, and that day is going to be quite far off -- the product has to be finished, a firm user base of very loyal and very invested users has to be built up, and they have to be sure of their role.

I think it may be jumping the gun by at least a year, if not more, to expect them to even begin to put out their product in D|S format. And odds are they will do both formats -- why should they only limit themselves to a single user base, when they can draw from both? They've long wanted to move into other realms as well, supplying content for programs other than poser -- this just happens to be where their money has been made.

It is not in the interests of either CL or DAZ to try and corner the market, so to speak, and I don't expect either of them will do so -- there is too much to lose, and not enough to gain.

Will partisanship play a role in the future of our communities? Likely. Should it? Only to the extent that it fosters good, friendly competition.

Soulhuntre brought up an interesting observation that broke things into three tiers. His lines were rather simple, but not precise, though that wasn't his intent.

I've never viewed DAZ as a bigger cheese than Rosity. yes, they are the makers of the most popular figures for poser, and they have some nice stuff, but they are, ultimately, little more than a bunch of poserholics themselves who've banded together to bring cool stuff out. DAZ was started by poserholics -- they bought themselves out of Zygote (and a really smart move it was, as well).

However, they are facing stiff, stiff compettion in that arean, and it's likely only going to get worse. LaRoo, Mayadoll, Alexa, Neftoon, Linlin & Adam, DinaV -- there are other figures out there now, and how many of them have come out recently. Look at Cubed -- those babies are phenomenal, and if they do folks again, well...

Let's not simply discount the great sites out there. RDNA is a thoughtful home to some outstanding artists, and is exceptionally high quality stuff. PoserPros may have started as a sort of alt.rosity, but they certainly have their own style and voice now. 3DCommune might not have the support it once did, but the folks there are loyal and true to it (just, hey, c'mon, redesign a little, guys, lol), and with Alexa, they've really created a figure that I think is superior to a lot of what's out there right now.

There's the developing specialty stores -- Mec4D, Polymage, 3d-Arena -- lord you all know how large the list is.

CL, DAZ, and Renderosity do too. And each of them knows that they cannot go it alone anytime soon. Daz may be the largest now, but have ya'll looked at what RDNA has of late (ok, yeah, I'm a booster, lol, come visit me)? Seriously! Microcosm is a product that literally changes the way you use poser like nothing else out there. The whole store is filled with incredible products that are fully competitive with anything DAZ has to offer -- and often at better quality. I dont say that lightly, either -- I'm just as picky as the next person. Moreso, perhaps, because I look for flaws from experience.

Other folks see that as well. And RDNA isn't the only one out there. There is some outstanding quality here, at Poser Pros, at 3D Commune. Junk as well, yes, but all of it shows that DAZ isn't the only game in town -- just the best known.

Rosity isn't the only game either -- just the biggest. But with all these other places around, they can't simply rest. They grow and evolve and adapt. Not always the way we like them too (hey, this whole place was once the Poser Forum -- what's all this other stuff about? lol), but then, nothing ever does.

CL might be the source right now, but with competition, they can't rely on it alone. And they know that -- they are business folk, who also need a constant revenue stream that supplements the standard one from Poser.

So yes, there will be some blending of those zones -- the community as a whole has matured to a point where the time is ripe for it. I say yes, let D|S be great, Let Poser 6 be awesome, let CL get some good content, let DAZ slug away.

but let us share in it all.

(I deleted this because my html was screwy, sorry! - reposting without html) I feel compelled to put my 2 cents in here. But, as I always say, no worries - I accept refunds ;-) I use P4PP. I am interested in purchasing P5, but I keep hearing that P6 is due out soon, so I am waiting and very much looking forward to it's release! :-) I agree with many of the things said here. As I have never "experienced" they dynamic clothing & other P5 only features, I can only comment on what I know from using P4PP. I agree, I do not want to see Poser become more of a modeling program. I have a modeling program, it was very expensive! I use Poser because it's quick and FUN and the price has been right! It allows me to create images I probably could not otherwise create. So, with that said, I have a few things I would like to see improved as well :-) I can not stress enough how much I would love a better lighting system. As Ynsaen mentioned, Point lighting would be fantastic. I think I read that P5 has this, but, I'll say it anyway - volumetric lighting. :-) While I'm on the topic of lighting, a way to delete all the lights at once would be very grand. I have a python script to do this, but that's another window to open. It would be nice if there was one little button next to the lights to delete them all. A better render engine would be high on my list too. As well as better previews. I'm surprized sometimes when I render something and my lighting looks very different from my preview! Sure would save time if the work window's preview looked a little more like the render. Would be nice if you could actually preview transparant items instead of little dots. :- One very important feature I would love to see is the multiple undo! I'd be happy with 10 - 15 for Poser, lol. Anything's better than 1. Copy & Paste of objects is another fantastic Idea that Ynsaen mentioned and I've often wished for. I have python scripts to allow me to duplicate figures & props. Sure would be nice if duplication of objects was built right in. It would save me from having to open up another window. Of course, I have to add that It would be nice if it worked with Windows copy & paste keyboard shortcuts - ctrl + C & ctrl + V. Even if it just pasted the copy at the same coordinates of the origional object, or centered in my work window. That would be a nice feature. As I am getting ready to purchase more memory, which will be rather pricey... yes, better memory handling would be GREAT! :-D Working in multiple memory heavy programs like Photoshop & Poser or C4D & Poser really bogs down my system. And, my system's not too ancient yet! I'm not familiar with P5's interface, I do like P4's. But, one thing I don't like about P4 (and I do believe it's been fixed in P5) is the restriction of categories in each library. I have to manually clean my Pose folder once a month at least. Gets to be a bit trying. I for one would LOVE it if I could purchase something from a merchant, unzip or install it to my runtime directory, then while in poser, have the ability to put files where I want them to live. Like Mat files... If I buy a new texture/mat pack for the morphing fantasy dress from MerchantX, and MerchantX has it set up to be in his own special folder in the pose library... I'd love to just drag it (or cut & paste) to MY morphing fantasy dress category... thumbnail & all, while in Poser. That way I know where everything is and can keep Poser organize the way I like it. Not the way MerchantX likes it. I think we all do things our own ways, and we all tend to be a little set in those ways. Implimenting drag & drop for Libraries would allow each artist to customize his/her runtime quickly & easily. I also dislike how my Library categories are smooshed in P4PP. If they have long names, forget it, I have to guess sometimes and hope I'm going into the right folder (especially if I've been lazy & haven't cleaned up my runtime, lol). I agree that a larger pannel would be a great addition. If any of the things I've mentioned can be done in P5, I appologise for beating a dead horse. I can't stress enough how much I do love Poser and how wonderful it would be to see it keep improving for many years to come. Thanks to Ynsaen for posting this thread. It really gives us all a bit of a voice - I hope :-) (And thanks to CL for reading). Liz

It seems to be a feature that if ever you raise a thread about the evolution of a program in a general way, you always attract people chipping in with their shopping lists of wanted features, diverting away from the real topic in hand. Yes, of course Poser needs point lights (one reason I gave up on Poser as a rendering program from the outset). Yes, of course it needs better undo (not even multiple undo necessarily, just an undo that reliably works once would be something). We know all that. But what it really needs most of all is a new design that thinks out the ergonomics a lot better than what we have presently. In the previous thread that ynsaen refers to at the head I tried to give an outline of the sort of approach that might work. If someone can say that they rarely change cameras, it says something about the work that they do and the way they do it. If you work entirely within the restrictions applied by Poser, you might not have this need. There is a school of Poser art that goes "Dump figure in scene from library; add clothes; add scene props from library; apply pose from library; add light set from library - render". If that's all you do, you might wonder what the fuss is about. But when you are used to creating complex scenes from scratch in Bryce or Vue or some other similar program, then working with Poser is like trying to walk in diving boots. Complex scene creation cannot be done without continually switching views to check that things are properly aligned. Trying to do it in Poser is so difficult with the tools provided that most people never try; they resort to trickery with background images instead. Poser certainly doesn't need to be a modelling app, any more than it needs to have bitmap editing thrown in (why even try when Paintshop or Photoshop will always be a better option). Equally, it is valid to treat Poser just as tool to be used in connection with another rendering app, just as Anim8or or Wings is an adjunct to Poser. But in that case, it needs to be designed that way, without "dynamic hair" that can't be exported. In such a case, one ignores the shortcoming of lighting and rendering in Poser on the grounds that these are only for quick tests, and the final render will be done elsewhere. But in the case that Poser is positioned as a final scene renderer, it is necessary to have a long hard look at the whole software design, because the present model just isn't suitable.

"It is not in the interests of either CL or DAZ to try and corner the market, so to speak, and I don't expect either of them will do so -- there is too much to lose, and not enough to gain."

I disagree. I think even if they keep D|S free there is much for Daz to feel they gain by trying to lock in. The Poser content market LOOKS big, but it is fundamentally small. We are a bunch of fish having fun in a very, very small pond. Given that, it is clear that Daz's fundamental unwillingness to support Poser5 despite the obvious marketing opportunities is only the beginning of a partisan play to split the market.

Scenario: Daz releases figures that work in Poser and D|S but rely on the (yet unfulfilled) promise of vertex weighting. Now consider that the locked in format and control of the code may allow them to make sure that no one else can do as good a job as they can with their figures.

If Daz were to keep D|S free in that circumstance and managed to make D|S even remotely usable they might believe that they would corner the market completely. Your choices would be to buy Poser and the Daz figures and have it look bad or buy the Poser figures and just use D|S.

Instantly, a huge portion of people would switch to D|S - a format that now Daz controlled and could maybe make being a broker a requirement for access to the ability to use the advanced features as a merchant.

Think about it. They might be wrong, but it's not a bad play, and there is a LOT to gain.

"Will partisanship play a role in the future of our communities? Likely. Should it? Only to the extent that it fosters good, friendly competition."

All competition is ultimately good, but this one stopped being friendly a long time ago :)

"but they are, ultimately, little more than a bunch of poserholics themselves who've banded together to bring cool stuff out"

They are, ultimately, a corporation. I doubt the people who make the financial decisions these days are poserholics at all. This is a company with financial issues to deal with, payroll to meet and families depending on them... they will do what will make them the most money.

"As well as better previews. I'm surprized sometimes when I render something and my lighting looks very different from my preview!"

The better the render engine gets, the more divergent previews and final renders will look... this is true no matter how high end the software. For instance in Max and Maya the previews will never show you how this is going to look in Mental Ray :)

Hi, I have a quick second to post on one topic. There is mention that people expect Poser 6 out soon. More accurately, SR4 for Poser 5 is out (very) soon. The discussions and survey details on Poser 6 is to get additional feedback from the users and communities. Please don't expect P6 "soon", it is in development. And I don't want to start the speculation of when yet. That's a bit too far down the road to start up the conversation. Thank you and kind regards, Katherine

I have no high expectations for a P6 release date :) I'm going to anticipate 3 years before it's released. Might be dead by then. It would be awfully nice if some of the items in my "wish list" could be addressed by the P5 update, but I don't have a very high expectation there either :)

"What I see at DAZ is proprietary greed with a nice insurance salesman smile. I seem to be alone in this regard. Oh well. " Far from it. "I can't prove it, but I suspect we are already seeing a tactic that would be a little nasty. Based on using SP3 and the MDog, I suspect that DAZ is now "anti-testing" their products, by which I mean boobytrapping them so that they don't look right in P5." It has appeared for a considerable time that as if DAZ might be doing somehting like that - they're certainly not encouraging anyone to use Poser 5, and don't seem at all fussed about decent support for their products in that program. The release of MIMIC for Lightwave is also interesting, given that in theory one oculd use MIMIC for Poser with Daz Studio and Lightwave - if DAZ Studio were actually up-and-running (it's early alpha stage is still pretty, err, early). They do a lot right, but the salesman thing is smack on - they're after our money, nothing more and nothing less. While they continue to offer stuff that seems good, I'll continue to give it to them - but never take your eyes off that crocodile smile! Cheers, Cliff