Someone gave a comment on a Cinema 4D art work using poser figure in this C4D gallery.

Well, I don't know exactly what to say, but there's one thing I DO KNOW: in 3d imagery like in this context, it seens much more possible to get reviews an EXCELLENTS, and OHHHHS, what a sexy chick with stupid poser figures than with true talented, hard-worked projects. Let me be straight: I AM NOT, repeat NOT GAY, but C'MON, naked chicks all THE FUCKING TIME???????? Where's the skill, THE TALENT? I think if poser was to be banned from this world, 90% of the newer artists wouldn't know where to beggin, I mean, they don't do 3d art, they do POSER works like this one. WHAT A SHAME. I missed something, maybe I should quit cinema 4d and post naked poser figures. I believe doing this I would get EXCELLENT rankings all the time. DUHHHHH

I was thinking to use Cinema 4D with poser figures.
He clearly mentioned stupid poser figures
I remember that some other person said I dont use disgusting poser figure---- in Zbrush forum before.
Probably only few persons mentioned them explicitly.

Did you poser people experience this kind of problem?
How do you deal with them?
Probably I should only talk about modeling works with them? Never mention or show art works which have poser figures.

Everybody likes to feel superior to someone else. It's easy to scoff at Poser artists because yes, you can make a scene "out of the box" without much thought or effort. And come on, we all know some renders which have been posted like that. However most modellers don't bother looking beyond that or exploring any further. They just write Poser users off as no-talent people playing dress-up with virtual Barbies. Well, that's just human nature, I suppose. This comes up every couple of months. It's disconcerting the first time you encounter it, but then... blah. Next please!

My only comment is this: If I were able to live 8000 years and have all the time necessary to scratch build everything for everything, there'd still not be enough time. When there's a deadline, I take the quickest, simplest, fastest, easiest, least stressing, least costly means to do the job. If someone's paying me $100000 to make a figure from scratch, YAY!, they'll get one, darnit. Since noone has yet to offer me these princely sums, I'll stick to the quick-and-dirty method. Poser figures are 3D models with textures, just like all other 3D models. I'd ask Mr. Superior if he builds ALL of his models and textures and rigs and morphs from scratch and does he/she receive adequate compensation for the effort involved. Either way, it'll show them for who they really are.

No, I think that they don't look out of the Box.......afterall....those of us who don't model but use Poser models for what we do, could be for many reasons. I am at a point in my life where my kids are grown, I have a affordable morgage on my house, and gainfully employed (for the moment anyways) and can afford to buy what-ever software they use to do what they do. Unfortunately, having the money but NOT the time is a huge difference. In fact, I recently bought Cinema4, the upgrade from the ComputerArts magazine "trial" version but other then loading it up and registering........I have not touched it. Don't fret about any of the ratings you get from your images...If you like them, KEEP IN MIND.....that is all that matters. (: Do you create FOR the "complements" you may get or do you do it because it "Pleases" you? (: For me that is why I do any images, it is fun and it "amuses" me. (: No biggie if no-one else does. (: Oh, well....we can always try again. LOL!

I wouldn't let it bother you. For every "cookie cutter" Poserist, there's a skilled modeller with all the artistic ability of a tomato.

If this person calls themself an artist and is still looking for rankings, then there is something wrong with him. An artist makes art which they want to make, in whatever medium they want so that it expresses their vision......an artist does not make art for rankings.

I use poser and now even C4D CE6. I want to make poser props and even figures in C4D and render poser figures in C4D. Its no opposition between poser and some other arts ore software. My thirst intent to start with C4D was as a support for poser but still a newbe I understand I can go much fare in my art with this type of aps. Ok Im a little bit bored about the horde of poser pinups. But I have posted some of them my self. It's a common motive in al form of arts. There are lots of pretty god stillebens, spaceships and landscapes in the advanced 3D aps galleries. Its good stuff made from scratch by the artist them selves. But some of these have the characteristics of tutorials, its not special talent. To create a real human meshes in 3D are difficult. The lack of pinups in hi end 3D galleries reflect only the difficulties to make them not that there are bad art. And its another question way this type of motives is so common.

There's always some hothead spouting. Whenever you encounter this, ask yourself, as an artist and a person, the following question: "Why the hell should I care what they think?" Most of the time, the answer you get will be: "I don't." While all artists want approval, the wise ones know that their own approval is what matters most. ;)

Right on Rawnrr, you said exactly what I was thinking. lol Marque

Don't worry about it Himico, just force it out of your mind I've been using C4d and poser together for years and it used to really bug me, but i forced myself to just not care, if you must use the negative experience then use it to drive yourself to produce a C4d/poser image thats makes the self called experts go WOW...BTW does the swearing. non spelling Homophobe have a gallery?.....Steve

Pretty much what they said, with a couple of added points. There are a -lot- of genuine professionals (ie: those who get paid for this) who routinely use Poser, and the various Poser meshes. They are quick, easy to manipulate, of reasonable quality and at a nigh onto unbeatable price. Poser is just a tool; and like any graphic software tool, there is a staple or two attached to it. With Bryce it was the 'Reflective Sphere Over The Water', which has been seen in Bryce fora for an eternity. Poser has 'Naked Vicki In A Temple With A Sword'. Vue has 'Waterplaneground with Single Mountain Terrain with preset Sunset and Tree to the Right of Same'. Cinema has it, Lightwave has it (the Eternal B5 Spaceship of Your Choice), Max has it, Maya has it, Shade has it, etc. All they boil down to is the start of the learning curve. Back in the dim, dark days, the likes of Traveler, Syyd, Legume, Mehndi, Jack, Diane, Davo, Dendras, Don Tatro, and every other Poser Ghod you want to name committed NVIATWAS. Just like every Brycer committed SSoW. They all grew beyond it (notice I never claimed that any of them grew -up- :P ). Poser is just a tool. Use it as such, not just the means to an easy end, and ignore the app snobs. The proof is in the result (an excellent example of this maxim is at www.belino.net , where Phoul hangs his hat. Check out his demo's and you can see just what Poser 4 and Vue 4 can do....and I have had the extreme pleasure of having a Lightwave snob waxing about what 'his' app could do...and seeing the look on his face when he found out that the apps actually used weren't LW, and cost less than many plugins for his 'baby'. Revenge is sweet, and shriveling a twit is pure enjoyment...). And be careful of the 'no gallery' effect, as well. Most of my work is animation, so... no gallery. Now, back to Poser 5 and tests with VuePro and Mover 5. We really need a gallery for animation types to play in...

I think there is a parallel with comic book artists. A lot rag on anime work. I personally am not too fond of anime when its cheapely done. But western style can be just as easily cheaply done. I remember reading an article about the artist who worked on the old Flash Gordon comic book serial. He got high praise for his talent and well drawn work. Turned out he simply traced a lot of his figures from an older Tarzan comic. I also know 3d artists who have this lame (its poser it sucks) attitude but they use the actual obj mesh when modelling figures. Yes there is true talent. There are truly good modellers who make the entire figure themselves. But then there are also people who make their own wood for wood projects or paint for their paintings. Once the figure is made, what really is the difference between posing a figure in Max vs Poser. They are posed then you render. max has better renderers but that's about all. If a Max artist buys a vuepoint figure then poses and renders that figure, how have they done better?

Yeah what the other 3d artist don't realize is the speed of production. Fine they made a figure and it looks real good. Now can they buy a dress or slack or coat for them and have those fit and render within 5 minutes? Heck, If I need a pair of shoes I just buys some shows or DL them and I'm up and running. And that's one thing you'll see in non-poser created systems. The figures always wear the same outfits and have the same hair etc. Its the difference between a carpenter and an woods craftsman. A carpenter uses precut wood, tools, nails etc and makes a house because the end goal is to make something. A woods craftsman makes his own tools, cuts his own wood etc because part of the process is making your own materials as well as assembling them. Sure the crafstman knows more but how many houses can he crank out vs the carpenter?

"an excellent example of this maxim is at www.belino.net , where Phoul hangs his hat. Check out his demo's and you can see just what Poser 4 and Vue 4 can do....and I have had the extreme pleasure of having a Lightwave snob waxing about what 'his' app could do...and seeing the look on his face when he found out that the apps actually used weren't LW, and cost less than many plugins for his 'baby'. Revenge is sweet, and shriveling a twit is pure enjoyment...." (Dale_B)

Dale, the model that Phoul uses are made with Lightwave (like most DAZ models). The statement "made with VUE and POSER" that Phoul writes on all his animations is wrong. With Poser and Vue only, his animations would be cubes moving in landscapes.

Please don't forget that all the contents that you are using in Poser were created in Lightwave, Rhino, StudioMAX, etc...

:) Eric

errm... I ought to point out that I'm not actually in the Graphic Arts industry - I'm a computer programmer. ('tho come to think of it, computer progamming is a sort of art.) But I do understand deadlines... All ARTISTS, wherever their drive comes from, try to instill in the viewer's mind the same emotion as they were imagining at the time. Whatever the medium, they used short-cuts. For instance, musical composers use established musical theory to work out their harmonies. (OK, some don't - but how many of them do you hear of?) Using Poser is a quick and easy way to get over an idea. It's HOW you use it that counts, plus the imagination behind the idea in the first place. (I don't set myself up as an example!) If purists always had their way, we'd be stuck dead at the time of the arrival of the 1st purist (probably somewhere around 2000 BC: "No can copy cave-painting of other antelope - must make new version from watching real antelope") Me, I'd rather click on a Poser figure, muck around with it til it looked vaguely like the image in my head and if I like it enough, I'll share it with others. Or, make a new figure (if the mood struck me: unlikely - I can't afford the hi-end 3D modelers). Now, where can I get all of the freebies that will make up Tracy Emin's "Bed" (or whatever it was called - the one that got shown in the Tate...) - I could make a scene and put a facsimile of Tracy in it (stategically placed so that no naughty bits are showing, just to placate the purists...) Sorry if that sounded like a rant (wasn't meant to be) just a little satire :-) Cheers, Diolma

Actually, I -do- know that the models Phoul uses run the gamut; the Star Wars meshes were freebies from long ago done in Max 3, I believe. Anyone who bothers to look at the programs could figure that out in a heartbeat, as they aren't modellers. My point there is 'so fricking what'? That is only one =very= small part of CG artwork, and at the risk of starting a fire, no more important than texturing, lighting, rigging, animating, etc. All I was pointing out was the quality (sufficient to convince a self styled LW guru that only 'his' baby could have been responsible =for the entire production from beginning to end=) of Philippe's animations have nigh onto nothing to do with the software used. It's =how= it's used, and the experience brought to it from the user. And let's be honest here; in a real production pipeline, you don't have one person doing it all. You have specialists, and many places contract modelling out simply because it -is- a specialty. So using 3rd party content isn't some kind of cheat as the groups in question imply; it is simply standard business practice to save time. I've had a couple of kids run off from the CG scene as they were getting their feet wet due to that segment of the 4 digit app crowd that feels compelled to denigrate anyone or anything not 'one of them'. I guess the moral of the story is that my father has a friend who has a basement workshop with top of the line everything probably close to $100,000 of tools and power equipment. The man I know that I would trust to do work for me has a bunch of 10 year old Craftsman tools from Sears...and talent and skill, and a willingness to both learn and teach.

I see the same BS is larger 3d groups. There is nothing bad about us or our work. We create models and products that are easy to use and reusable. You can change their look and such easily and they have alot of flexibility in support and appearance. .....and they KNOW we are making money at it. People who are really secure in their talents never dump on other people who create, even if they don't think other people's work is as good. IGNORE THEM AND PITY THEM. Real artists never criticize others UNLESS criticism is ASKED for.

Because they're flippin' idiots?

Computer assisted work is a new form of art. Expect trouble for about twenty more years.;) I feel that computer assisted work is different enough from other art forms that it must have it's own set of criteria. It borrows from other forms of art. It is similar to drawing, painting, sculpture, photography, cinema, cel-animation, dance, fashion design, collage, etc. (I sure hope I didn't miss anyone!). The criteria for all of these forms of art lend themselves immediately to CG. However the actual practice of creating CG work is not at all very close to how any of these other forms of art are produced. As such, techniques are present in CG that are unique to it. Rendering, for example, (although the word is borrowed), is creating a representation of an object using algorithms based on physical models. Texturing, also linked with rendering, is somewhat unique in that again algorithms are used to simulate the interaction of light with a surface. Postwork, (actually taken from photography), is also partially unique in that it provides an entire category of issues to judge. What does this have to do with Himico's post? I think that CG is so new that we do not yet grasp all of the possible issues that would allow us to be able to judge it. You can judge a render as a painting, but really it is not one, for it was not produced the way that paintings are, and on a monitor, has no real physical presence. Although we can judge it with some of the criteria of painting, there are other criteria that can readily be discussed that are many. Who made the figures? What renderer was used? Since there are questions regarding the creation of the work itself involved, it is only natural that some will set up their own criteria and scoff at others that do not meet that criteria. A co-worker said to me that "CG has in twenty years caused the creation of more bad art than anything ever has". I replied, "Well, the publishers of art history books didn't bother to round up 10,000 years of bad art and print it."

I agree with caravaggio, its a new medium, just finding its way, and just another tool of artistic expression with it's own special requirements. I think we should all just worry about our own art. We should spend more time learning from what has come before, because the artistic principles that have been handed down are the same regardless of medium. By this I mean the basics of composition,design, color, light, and perespective to name a few. Finding the best way to communicate what we want to say through our art. All the modeling now how and technique is wothless without a good composition. I could care less about the carping of the modeling crowd, I'm gonna spend my time trying to perfect my work in my chosen medium, while being inspired by some of the great artists that use poser(and there are some really good ones here), and the other great masters from other mediums that inspire me.

Been said before but I'll say it again! Don't let it bother you. I think there are some aspects of every CG program that are superior to others. Some do lighting pretty well, some make nice water, some have fantastic texture features, and some are good for people (etc). I think someone who comments on something negatively (generally) doesn't understand. To the best of my knowledge Poser is very unique and until motion capture technology is avaliable for less than several hundred thousand dollars I suspect this will be the case for the near future and beyond. I applaud people who can make things for themselves but to most casual artists the bottom line is time and money. Anyway, not sure why I commented, but I never let people bother me anymore. I used to be defensive about things (RPGs, mostly). I have a friend who I always agrued with about things and when I thought of how futile it was we became good friends. I got past his oppinion and vice-versa. Ciao.

I find the attitude that "people who use Poser aren't real artists because they don't do their own modelling" an indefensible position. I guess Ansel Adams isn't a real artist because he didn't personally sculpt those landscapes he photographed. I guess Robert Mapplethorpe isn't a real artist because he didn't build all those flowers by hand out of cheesecloth and baling twine.

Imagine for a moment a photographer who takes pictures that look similar to Ansel Adams landscapes, but who does so by photographing miniatures he has constructed himself, using model railroading supplies. Is this hypothetical photographer "better" than Ansel Adams?

It may be true that a lot of Poser art isn't any good, but only because a lot of any art isn't any good. Remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crud. Related to caravaggio's comment - the cruddy 90% of everything gets forgotten fairly quickly, only the good 10% endures. This is why people talk about how "they just don't make [music/movies/books/art/etc.] like they used to." They really do make all that stuff like they used to, you've just forgotten all the crud. Dig up some obscure, forgotten, mediocre classical music and listen to it if you don't believe me...

This is a "re-send", because I don't think my post went through the first time. My apologies if I goofed and it shows up as a double-post!

............

Greetings, folks! I believe this is my first post on a Renderosity forum. I find this discussion absolutely fascinating!

There is a term for people who denigrate those with artistic intent, desire, and effort. These people are "Poison Friends." I have a couple at work. I work in a computer programming environment...think Dilbert's "Cube City," and you'll get the idea!

Anyhow, I tried a few small works, and I got dissed when I had them up as backgrounds or screensavers. I was shocked and discouraged! I respect these guys! They'd give you the shirt off their backs if you were in trouble or need! They were in Vietnam! They fought for my Country, and they lost buddies! And they would do it all over again!

When I got over my shock, I began to realize that it's my artistic friends who are all usually very encouraging and helpful with their criticism.

And now I realize that my non-artistic friends pretty much "bee-eye-itch" about everything. They hated "Moulin Rouge" they hated "Simone", they don't understand the "Star Wars" thing or "Babylon 5." Circque du Soleil is too expensive. Seeing a concert at House of Blues is too much trouble.

They wine and p*ss and moan about everything. And I believe it's precisely because they DON'T have creative activities or pursuits.

It's not the same as the C4D crowd dumping on Poser people, but it is similar. Without realizing it, my "poison friends" exhibit their own brand of snobbishness.

So what I have done is separate them from my artistic side. Oh, sure, I still post my creative photos and artwork from time to time in my cubicle, but if someone hits me with a rude comment, I tell them that although my work is not perfect, I had fun doing it while relaxing in what little spare time I can find. I am SO busy with work and school and sports and stuff, and yet I still try to make time for making music and art. They all know this.

But to further drive the point home, I nicely ask them "what did you do last night just for fun? Oh, and watching television doesn't really count."

They never have an answer. And I have mine. And it makes me happy.

So all of you artists, whether you're professional or proudly an amature like me, would do well to keep your "poison friends" at arm's length. Remember, a poison friend isn't necessarily somebody who PURPOSELY hurts you, but one who hurts you nonetheless.

Anyhow, don't give up their friendship, mind you! Just don't give them the free and clear opportunities to stab your creativity in the heart while it's still gestating.

Protect and shield that innocent inner child inside you. Yeah, the one with the fingerpaints all over his/her hands, face, body, table, walls, ceiling.....

Oh, yeah....don't even get me started on "American Idol." I think that show is cruel and heartless and very VERY destructive.

Anyhow, thanks for listening, and have a super day!

Oh, one of THOSE idiots. People who think that everyone has unlimited time and money to spend on one image. Yadda yadda yadda. You know, my clients could not care less if I use a "stupid" Poser figure or not. They pay for the end result, and they want it in something less than a century, generally speaking. :) The people who take this attitude are just trying to make themselves feel superior. I agree with Anton. Ignore them and pity them. bonni

Think if the only 'Real' musician was the one that built his (or her) own instrument. By hand. Then the music industry would thin out pretty fast :o) :] Fish makes music and Poser renders on a computer - and loves it

":] Fish makes music and Poser renders on a computer - and loves it " Cool. Me too. And I play guitar, none of which I built myself. :) Guess that makes me a non-musician. ;)

LOL SamTherapy: and I write computer programmes and I DIDN'T build my own computer (nor write the operating systwm, comes to that) - so I guess I must be a script-kiddie..:-)) BTW - Recipe for gut-strings on a Guitar not for the faint-hearted. And as for steel strings: 1st build your own Bessmer Converter..... (I never got past that step)... LOL, Diolma

Heh, you guys are funny. I guess in order for me to be a "real" violin player, I need to go back to 16th century Italy or Germany, build a violin, then come forward to present time and buy my own violin off of the market at an exorbitant price...or else I can't be called a musician! Wow, it's a good thing I've got that time machine in the garage! Oh yeah, and if you think building your own computer qualifies you for the title "programmer," you've got it wrong. You also need to forge the hard drive platters, solder the traces on your motherboard, and design and manufacture your own CPU! And when you're done with that, you need to write your own OS and application. But of course, you're not allowed to call it Poser. I'm imagining the writers of the original "Star Trek" series in the 60's being told, "you're not qualified to tell this story until you've actually built a starship and gone 'where no man has gone before'. Go find us some alien life forms, and we'll buy your little series from you." Yikes. Like I said, "Poison Friends." It's okay to play with them; just don't let yourself get too close to them.

obviously, i don't care... I started to use poser actively and contribute to gallery and freestuff making pictures or things i had in mind, i needed for myself and that no one ever found time and need or will to make before i do.. best served by oneself, (the old saying) Now, when things are done, i guess that there is a little odd that someone, somewhere, share some of my own tastes and needs and would be glad that FINALLY someone made it while they needed it, and while they could not make it themselves... So once i am pleased with what i did, pleased according to my initial idea, i share "as is", and if some don't like, it is all their problem you know... and for those who like and make me know, i am often very glad to visit their own page or galery and be amazed at what they have done too... it often leads to me begging for tips and advices abotu THEIR works :p Now it got us back to another thread here: it is HARD to explain people wat We are doing with poser. Especially when you finally admited that NO you did not made the model you used polygon by polygon, you did not draw the textures pixel by pixel, you may not even had doen yourself the poses used dial by dial, or the light set too. Then the question is "What the hell did you do, in fact ?" Usually i do not reply, or usually i tell them that if it was just as easy as "push render button", i would not make one picture a week or so, and rosity would not have a one picture post per day limitation :) For those still eluctants, i often put them front of my poser install, and tell them: well do the same !, i even often load the same Pz3 scene just to be naughty if i kept it... YEs there is art and skill in using poser, but it is diluted in many many little details and things and knowledge bits that are unusual to many clasical art forms...

Thank you very much for your encouraging responses. Your opinions are very useful.

I dont worship tools. Poser, Vicky, or Cinema 4D is one of my tools.
I was disappointed with the views they had.
It is not my business. Just ignore, and stay away.

Thanks again. I really appreciate your helpful replies.
Himico.

Riddokun: "Especially when you finally admited that NO you did not made the model you used polygon by polygon, you did not draw the textures pixel by pixel, you may not even had doen yourself the poses used dial by dial, or the light set too. Then the question is "What the hell did you do, in fact ?""

"I loaded up Poser 8 and pushed the 'Make Art' button..." (^_^) Boy, life will sure be easier when they get around to implementing that one, won't it?

I will say this: I have gotten to the point, as my skills have progressed, that I rarely use out-of-the-box poses without at least some modification, and I generally do all of my own lighting anymore, and I usually do some texture work as well. But this is not because I think "real" artists don't use pre-fab poses/lighting/textures, but rather because I'm starting with an image in my head, and these are the things I need to do to get that image out to where other people can see it.

Even assembling pre-fab elements into a final whole requires creativity and talent. If it didn't, why would anyone listen to rap music? (^_^)

Peeps..

I was NOT going to respond to this cause I don't care if you use a piece of chalk and a wet rag to make what you consider art as long as you are enjoying yourself, cool. I'm a musician and many of my peers HATE "electronic" music and HATE EVEN MORE that now "regular" people without technical knowledge and ability can "make music" with programs like Garage Band and Reason. I say awesome... go for it folks. But with that said... 95% of it aint close to what I can do when I compose sounds and music from scratch. Many times I do NOT chose to compose from scratch cause I don't have the time and the client doesn't need a "Cadillac"... they just need something acceptable. So... I guess what I'm saying is that... don't kid yourselves... poser is acceptable... but not too much past that when you compare it against a "from scratch" or heavily post worked piece. (I can hear the sending of beautifully rendered non-post worked art being emailed now)

Poser is a FANTASTIC tool. It has some great uses but as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't going to do some serious post work... its weak. Admit it. Poser straight out of the box looks like crap. If you need a quick down and dirty figure for something it CANNOT BE BEAT. But if all you are doing is placing objects in a scene and pointing some lights on them... just take the hit... it's not really that impressive. It may be a fun hobby but you cannot compare yourself to someone (WITH TALENT) who has modeled, textured and a scene/figure from scratch. I haven't even touched on lighting.

Anyway point is don't get SO defensive when peeps rip on poser... cause they have a point sometimes... its just doesn't have the capacity you get from "other" apps. Anyway... F all the peeps that are moaning about it. Keep doing what you like... but realize that there is SOME truth in what the poser haters say.

And for my final comment to rebut all I have just said...

"I eat food for the way it tastes... not for the way it was cooked" - Me
So what the H3ll do I know :-) Just keep doin what u r doin.

to clarify my (WITH TALENT) comment about is meant to say that someone WITHOUT talent and all the tools in the world is useless. NOT to say that Poser users are not talented... on the contrary... I've seen some INCREDIBLE art from poser for sure.

Thank you for your comments.

I understand well what you try to mention.
I also understand some views expressed by them.

However, I dont like the atmosphere that we are discriminated because of using poser figure. Modeling is only one part of art works. There are many other important factors such as composition, lighting, material, and others.

I just wanted that minority could live comfortably in the community.

Anyway, it is not my business. Their views do not affect my works.
I mentioned this subject because it might affect the way I dealt with them.

Himico.

I know this thread is mostly dead, but I had the reply sitting in my drafts folder so here it is . Feel free to ignore :)

Obviously I use Poser a lot, and I love the tool. I have seen some people do totally outstanding art with Poser, so obviously I feel Poser is a artistic tool.

However, you have to keep in mind what kind of "art" most 3D websites are talking about. On CGTalk they are dedicated to the art of making 3D images - not really to 3D images as art if you get the distinction. They are there to talk about the techniques of modeling, texturing lighting and composition. With extremely few exceptions the vast, vast majority of Poser images only really represent composition and possibly lighting. It's just not going to impress people who are working hard on learning how to model, texture and so on.

Hell, one of the reasons I use Poser for commercial work is because it let's me get high impact without having to do a lot of the work myself. That's why Poser is a commercially important tool :)

As my own skills and understanding of 3D has grown, I simply have to say that all things considered I respect the effort that went into modeling a figure and doing original textures more than I do the effort that I put into buying Victoria. Just like when I see someone with a totally awesome custom car I am more impressed if they did most of the work themselves rather than simply buying components and having a shop put it together.

• Does this matter in how I evaluate it as ART? No. Art - the emotional impact - isn't gauged by effort.
• Does it matter in how much I go "wow"? Yeah, it does. Just like that custom car.

A fair amount of the reaction many in the higher end community have is simply this... Poser is simply not relevant to the skills they are trying to develop or hone. In their view it isn't a matter of artistic merit - because they are a community about skillets, not really one about art. Just like they wouldn't be favorable to a photograph. It wouldn't matter how good the photo was artistically, it just isn't relevant.

Now there are a fair number of bastards out there and snobs... just like there are people in Poser (we see them here) who go to those forums and go off about how their Poser4 render (and a bad one at that) is so much cooler than their best work and it only took an hour or whatever. This includes a bunch of people who dismiss their criticism as being jealousy that the Poser folks do better work without spending all that money.

Idiocy isn't limited to software choice :)

Soulhuntre, thank you very much for your response.

Generally, I agree with you. I was often visiting CGTalk. There are excellent art works there. As you point out, they are skill oriented community. However, they are not developing new technology, but utilizing available programs.

Poser use less or relatively simple technique, so emotion can be expressed without being buried in complicated technology. Therefore, poser works may have more artistic features.
While many poser beginners only put objects (which we bought) into a scene, beginner modelers are making cup, sword, or car, which may be irrelevant to strong emotional impact. Poser people at least try to create a scene.
We can not do both until we become expert.

I wanted to graduate my Barbie play, and was trying to learn high end program.

Thanks again for your useful comments.
Himico.