hi, just looking for a little moral support. I have been geting rather excited as I am just comming close to compleating my first product. To my dismay another 'big' merchant has created a very similar product which shall be available soon. I don't know whether to battle on, and complete the setup, or just give up entirely as I dont think I could compete. This is not the first time this has happened and it leaves me rather upset and exhausted, as you can imagine it takes a long time an alot of effort. This time I thought my product rocked (if I do say so myself). But you know what they say - great minds think alike! Does the marketplace need two products which are essentially the same. Any advice on what I should do would be great as presently I feel very isolated. Dag

I know this is easy for me to say, but please don't let this get you down. I've seen many others complain about the same thing happening. My suggestion would be for you to offer your similar item at a lower price, if possible. Ideally, this will work as a competitive strategy ... the increased sales due to your lower price should help offset any losses incurred by asking for less than you'd originally wanted to. If you feel you can't do that, go ahead and make your best effort. Do great job with the promotion. Competition is healthy, and truly unique items are rare in our community, despite the virtual glut of Poser items available. If your item is of competitive quality and value, you will be able to sell it. I might also suggest that if you decide to come out with future products, keep very quiet about them until you're getting close to release time. There's been a noticable increase in copycat items lately. I'm sure some of that is pure coincidence, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of it is just a nasty reality of the market. But since uncopyrighted ideas are fair game, it's the risk merchants take. Good luck to you!

There are many similar products in the marketplace. I would say go and release it anyway. You will still be better off releasing it and not getting as many sales than you would be in spending the time making it and not releasing it, therefore not making any sales. Thats the way i see it :) Rawn

The more choices we have the better any way.

People just want what is new and what looks best. Wait for the item to be released and then see how you can make yours better. Wait 6 months and then release your product. The other broker's item will be forgotten and your's will be new. I wouldn't lower your price. No store or broker I have ever talked to, has ever been able to prove to me or show numbers that provethat lower numbers increase profit. Usually the opposite is true. Many think the cheap stuff is cheap because it is crap. If people want it they will buy it. Hang in there. This stuff happens all the time.

I've shelved items before too but it's not really necessary. There really are no original ideas anymore. I would do a little something different to your product, maybe come up with something additional to add to it and release it anyway.

Actually, another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is NOT to shelve it, and NOT to lower your price, but to add just a little bit of something that will make yours stand out and slightly different from the other one. What is something that would make your package more attractive than the other one?

Yep.. my recommendation.. add more value yto your product, if you can.. more textures, props, anything that would make it more desirable then the one that's forthcoming. Something I'm finding is once something is released, in many cases, the artist doesn't expand on it, and just moves on to the next project. I'm finding I'm buying more as a consumer from the artists that don't forget their "children" and nurture them with continual support. As a merchant, I'm going to support those people that support their own items more. Add in some things to create more "value", and then plan an additional release supporting it somehow if you can.. when people compare the two, they will probably want to one with more usabiliy, and versitility.

Another tip/trick is to make some sort of add-on for your product and put that in free stuff. Hard to do if it's a texture, I know, but in most other cases it will work fine. It's a bit hard to know what is possible without knowing the product :o) but I DO know what you mean about someone beating you to a release of something you thought you were the only one that had thought of. I'll also say Release it anyway!

Anton wrote: "Many think the cheap stuff is cheap because it is crap. If people want it they will buy it." Difficult call. Some people like a bargain. If you present it well, people can SEE it isn't crap, and if the price is $5, it's a no-brainer whether to buy or not. On the other hand, if it's $30, a lot of people will say, well - it's nice - but do I really need it that much, like, $30 much? Since your unit costs are the same whatever price you charge, the strategy that maximises your return is not obvious. It comes down to psychology.

The common average uneducated buyer thinks that something is worth exactly what they paid for it... and not a penny more. They also expect other stuff to be equally cheap, with no regard for the time and skill in making it. Once they got used to paying $1.99, it got ingrained into their pointy heads that everything ought to be in the bargain bin. We've all seen the threads at DAZ where people keep continuously yelping that "such and so" ought to be in the PC just because that is what they think is a fair price. Deflation has hit hard this last couple of years and I see no bottom to it as long as artists are encouraged to undercut each other. Carolly

Dagmath, There are probably 800 "goth" textures for Vickis of all flavors: red eyes, white skin, black lips. Does that stop anybody from releasing yet another goth texture pack? Nope. Even if your item is a niche or specialized thing (say a Spanish galleon), it will be different from any other Spanish galleons out there. To further this example, suppose that the other guy was going to release his before yours came out. OK. Make a different figurehead, add some casks or detail the interior, put up an ENGLISH flag... and let the customers decide who wins the war over the trade routes. If you give up before release, you've lost everything: your pride and the time you have put into making the product. Your ego can get reinforced... but nothing will restore those lost hours. Carolly

I think the problem is that there is SO much out there of everything, that it is hard to think of something that has not already been done, or to think of NEW ways that something can be done. The artist/merchant has to do it in a new way, or do it better, in order to make it worthwhile. I love creating things, and it thrills me to no end to see when someone else enjoys them. But one of the reasons it takes me so long in between things is because I try to come up with things that are different. It's getting REALLY hard to do that! LOL

Oh .. PS .. I can't tell you how many times the same thing has happened to me, Dagmath ... don't give up even though there will be many times when you will feel like it. We ALL go through it, so just keep plodding away. You have to resolve yourself that you are doing it for the enjoyment, rather than for the money. Once you think that way, it is more of a thrill just to see someone else use something that you made. 8-)

Thank you all for the good advice. It seems to me that you are all in unison as to what to do. I guess I'll just get my finger out and complete what I started. I think your words have encouraged me to dig up my previous attempts too. I just hope I can keep the momentum going. Cheers all P.S. When the time comes - Any takers for beta testing ;)

If you don't release it how will you ever know if it's really useful to anyone? Put it out there and let it compete. Maybe you don't sell a single one, but that in itself will give you valuable information that you can use going forward (maybe there isn't really a market for your item, or you'll have to take a look at the competing product and figure out why people like it better than yours in that case but that's worth quite a bit).

I mean really - how many different breast morphing/manipulation items are out there for sale? People buy the good ones even so right?

Hopefully you put it out there, some people buy it and leave feedback, which you can use to improve it and your subsequent works and you make a few sheckles into the bargain.

Don't look at it as a one off profit making venture - look at it as one part of your growing portfolio of work. You'll get your name out there, some exposure that might help your future works get more response. Who knows, after you release some other quality stuff people will look at your "also offered by" section, see this thing and pick it up because your other stuff is good.

In short, you've got nothing to lose by releasing it, and much to gain.

PS. Despite what other people have said if all other things are equal, the deciding factor will be price - so a lower price won't hurt.

You know, it's not always necessary for Poser products to be absolutely unique. So two people make a Spanish Galleon or a streetlamp. So what? They'll both be different for sure. But even if the item is something that leaves no room for improvisation in the style, like a Nike trainer, there's still plenty room for competition in how it works in Poser. Two people can make exactly the same trainer, but one may have posable laces and the other may come with 5 different textures. What I'm saying is that I'd bet $50 that if you and I make the same thing, there will still be a big enough difference for them both to appeal to different people. Make your product work better inside Poser, and you already have the edge on other similar items. And, I agree with Anton and Carolly. Dropping price is no guarantee of success. mac

There are 2 kinds of beta testers... 1) People who are critical. They will take your product apart and tell you how to make it better. If there are flaws, their keen eyes ought to catch them. If there are tweaks which can add value or flexibility, they will suggest what to do. However, if you are fearful or angered by criticism, offering your baby to sharp-fanged slathering monsters to paw over might be hard to do. 2) People who make pretty gallery pictures and gush to the world about how wonderful and easy to use your product is. Having a couple of "name artists" use your models almost guarantees sales because your work is before the eyes of their fans. If it is honest praise, it is invaluable. If it is a striking image, it will stick in the mind of potential customers. When asking artists, try to match the product to somebody who would most likely use it anyway: a maritime artist would be able to do justice to that galleon mentioned above, whereas somebody who specializes in tiptoeing fairies in flower bikinies might not, no matter how good they are as artists. Successful merchants need the advertising but also need the perfectionism of a good critic. When you are ready to put the package in the hands of beta-testers, advertise that need here. When you choose beta-testers, try to get not only PC/Mac and Poser 4, ProPack, Poser 5 spreads, but also at least one person with sharp eyes and one person with beautiful images in their gallery. Oh, and somebody should proof-read your ad copy. Text which is part of an image doesn't get caught by spell/grammar checkers, and who wants to be embarrassed by a typo in the name of the product? Carolly

hauksdottir wrote: "The common average uneducated buyer thinks that something is worth exactly what they paid for it... and not a penny more." How many of THEM are there? I didn't think uneducated people found their way to Renderosity. I certainly can't say I know WHAT common average uneducated people think about RMP items, but I'm glad to hear that someone does. By extension, all freestuff is worthless. You paid nothing for it, so it's worth exactly nothing. If you believe this, well, really, words fail me.

Phantast, Do you want a list of all the people who have bitched and bellyached over having to pay 10, 20, 30 dollars for something when they feel it ought to be 2 bucks at most... AND the people who demand (repeatedly) new items for the same low price? It would be a fairly long list. These users are common and they are uneducated. Whether they are average is a matter of some doubt, however. Oh, and don't go putting words in my mouth. You and I have tussled over the rights of freestuff providers often enough that you won't get any grip on the high moral ground. Carolly

Carolly, I'm intrigued by your beta-tester categories, because when I needed beta-testers, I discovered a 3rd group. Those who would LOVE to beta-test, but never actually get around to doing it. I picked out 10 testers from the Rosity members, all people I thought had a wide range of skills, and mailed them to ask if they would test a product. 9 said 'Yes, I'd love to', and 1 couldn't, but I found a 10th to make up the group. Well, after a month, I still didn't have a single report and after contacting them all, got 10 different reasons why none of them could manage to do it. By that time, of course, I'd already found most of the bugs myself. I did another week of intensive testing, made a couple of fixes and submitted the product, (which has now been on sale for 6 months with no apparent problems). I'm sure I was just unlucky, but ever since then, I've done my own beta-testing. mac

Mac do you not find that you get over involved in the product and can't look at it objectivly? I find that after spending so much time on somthing its hard to look with fresh eyes. Saying that I don't mind critisism from third parties but would prefer to do it myself. After all those 10 beta testers could have been prospective purchasers. ;) Oh I have so many questions -like I use poser 5 so I probably would need beta testers. Do you have to make a product available for P4 and PP. Is there such a thing as beta testers doing the conversion or do I have to buy a copy of PP and P4 to be a real merchant. Seems like a hard thing to get the right testers Maybe the solution is that a few merchants teem up and beta test and support each others products ?? I dunno have yet to find out how it works. Do merchants get along or see each other as dueling partners?

dagmath.. in regards to the conversion thing.. the only thing P5 can't create is rsr-thumbnails and .bum bumpmaps. The first is easily made with P3DOExplorer (here in free stuff form Yarp) and the latter, well, leave a not that P4-peeps should convert your .jpg bumpmap into those HUGE .bum's ;o) - they're a pain in the ... er... bum anyway L It CAN be hard to get the right testers.. I have failed a merchant once too, I had agreed to test something but went down with a flu :o( Took a while to get the guy to believe me though. It's an advantage if you've been a merchant for some time, your loyal customers will usually gladly accept to beta a new product and then get it for free at the same time :o) My BEST EVER (thanks Dialyn) tester is also my best customer :o)

I don't find it difficult to look at a product objectively. In fact, the opposite. I know more about what my products should and shouldn't do than other people. But the whole point of having beta-testers is that they work in different ways from the merchant. So maybe they'll find things that don't work for them that you never thought of. I certainly don't mind criticism. That's the whole point of betas. To get people to try and 'break' the product. And I don't much care about 10 lost sales either. That's a very small percentage to lose in exchange for valuable information. Mind you, all my products are tested by DAZ too before they're released. I just prefer to make sure DAZ can't find anything to fix. 'Do merchants get along or see each other as dueling partners?' I guess that depends on the merchants. I have no problem with competition. Nor do I keep any wonderful 'secrets' that I'm unwilling to share. If anyone asks, I'll tell 'em. And I think that merchants should work together for a common cause. For example, if a user buys a lousy product, he/she may be more reluctant to spend money again in a hurry. The higher the standard of Poser goods, the more sales there are for everyone. A lot of merchants do work in teams. If one is good at texturing, another at modelling and another at promo pics, then it can make life a lot easier. mac

As someone who has been mainly a "buyer" up until now, can I say that I have found some amazing bargains at $5.00, and also made some purchases at $30.00 where I may as well have flushed my money down the toilet. As most other people have been saying, your product may be similar to someone else's, but if you throw something in that is unique, it might be that very something that pushes a buyer in your direction instead of the other person's. When you do finally release the product, make sure that you are available to your customers. I have purchased quite a few things from the Marketplace, but in a handful of cases was very disappointed when I went to the trouble of contacting the creator (both IM and EMail), but got absolutely no response. That puts me off buying anything else from them.

Thank you ernyoka1 for the advice on conversion. I guess you just have to be pickey about the beta testers. Luckily my partner has offered to give it the first glance ;) Though I have always found that family are the worst to ask. From what you all are saying looks like most people are also D.A.Z. brokers, thou I don't think they would broker me. If you make an all singing all dancing product with all bells and whistles does that defeat the purpose. Do people like to purchace a complete package all in, or devided into 'Main Product','Accessories','Poses' etc??? To answer my own question I guess different people like it different ways. Cheers all

No, they aren't mostly DAZ brokers. Many of the more prominent ones are. However, there are some excellent and well-known people who showcase their work at other sites. Look at PoserPros and RDNA and 3dcommune, and you'll see several familiar names. There are also guys like PhilC, Dacort, Nerd, who basically have their own websites and stores. As to "how inclusive?", remember not to stuff your product just to stuff it. Do 20 shades of lipstick make a better product or merely clog the arteries of some poor Runtime? Folks do want a texture with a character or model (and complain when it comes barren and bereft). Most models look like plastic without their textures on. Additional textures can come with an add-on pack, but one texture should be in the starter pack. If it looks like a product line, with continued support, THAT will also encourage buyers. If you are offering a new figure with an extreme body type, let's say a leprechaun, then the existing clothes won't fit... and few people want to see an 800-year-old man in his skin, no matter how much sparkle you put in his step! Having a few clothes in a pack released at the same time means that people can begin rendering immediately. If enough people express interest, you can get the community involved. TenTen and Koshini benefitted by having several extra hands helping make products for them. If you are doing something like this, think about having a clothing or accessories pack released with your figure. One other thing to remember is that freebies as add-ons do help. Let's say that you've modeled a very nice grand piano, with movable keys and strings and everything. It is exquisite, but people might balk at the price, especially if they haven't seen your work before. So... make some sheet music and a candalabra of the same quality and have them as free stuff. Yes, a lot of people will just nab them... but a few might recognize the piano sonata and think if you put that much care and craftsmanship into an accessory item, that piano must be really something (and worth buying!) Carolly

'but in a handful of cases was very disappointed when I went to the trouble of contacting the creator (both IM and EMail), but got absolutely no response' Good advice about being available to your customers. I make a point of including my own mail link in every Help File, AND checking my mail once a day, AND replying to everyone within 24 hours. Not that I get enormous amounts of mail, but for example, with one product, DAZ managed to lose a camera folder from the installer. I was able to mail it within hours to a lot of users, because they mailed me about it, rather than DAZ. I also encourage users to mail me with ideas and suggestions for things they would like to see in add-on packs, and I've already built several figures that people have requested. Feedback from the public is important, and now that Rosity has become so 'politically correct', you can't mention commercial products anywhere but the Product Showcase, so you can't canvas opinions any more. Pity. mac PS I notice no one has mentioned the 'Terror of the Dreaded Promo Images' yet. When you get to the end of your product, you'll quickly discover the 'joys' of making promo pics before you can submit it. The part that ALL merchants hate! LOL.

When you get to the end of your product, you'll quickly discover the 'joys' of making promo pics before you can submit it. The part that ALL merchants hate! LOL Ugh ... you said it! Sometimes I think the promo images take as long as the product development!

'Sometimes I think the promo images take as long as the product development' Deecey, I used to think that, but now I know better. They take even longer.... or maybe it just seems that way. LOL. mac

Quite a few excellent suggestions there. As a user (not a merchant, unfortunately), I look at a few things, when deciding what purchase to make. First, "Need (or Want)".. I agree with most here, there are so many Poser items available covering a broad spectrum, it's hard to try to strike a balance between something that's specialized, but general enough that a good chunk of people will purchase your product. You do the best you can. If your product is along the similar lines of other merchants here (or other sites) try to add or do something a bit different to make your product stand out. That's where Add-on packs can become important. I may see a product and think it's not something I want, only to come back a month later and see an add-on that I DO want. I'll have to buy the original pack, so I can have the add-on. I know of some merchants here who are more successfull with a product after adding add-on packs then with the original item itself. Promos are especially important because it gives me some idea of what I can use the product for. It may be a really great product, but if the promo pictures are awful, my opinion is that the product will most likely be awful as well. Try to get some good artists to volunteer their time to help create some good promos, especially if they're artists that you or other people enjoy seeing. Second, "Quality".. I have to say, having freebies does help in getting some idea about the quality of the work. If I have problems with the freebie, I'm sure not going to plunk down money for a product from the same merchant. However, if I love the freebie, and I'll be the first to admit it doesn't always mean I'll purchase a product, it DOES mean that I'll keep you in mind and check back on any new products you have available. It's nice to make a quick buck, but the really good merchants work on building, keeping, and expanding their customer base, and freebies can help in doing that by showing people what kind of quality work you can do. Third, "Support".. If I have a question about something I purchased and need help, the merchant is the first person I want to talk with. They designed it, I expect they'll have some idea of how to help me fix whatever problem I'm having. I don't expect a response 5 mins later after sending out an email to them (and I do recommend getting an email account specifically for customer support of your Poser merchandise), but I do expect a response within a reasonable amount of time. It may be the problem I'm having is with Poser, and if so, having the merchant able to point me in the right direction to finding a solution scores big points for them in my book. If it is a problem I'm having with the merchant's product itself, I want an answer, an upgrade of the product, or my money back. If I feel they're really sincere in wanting to help me with my problem, hey, I'll even HELP them figure out what's wrong and even work with them in finding a solution. Fourth, "Price".. I expect the price to be reasonable. If it's a good product, easy to use, high quality, and I get the support I need, I'll pay the extra bucks. It may be the product is a bikini for Vickie 3.0, and it may be a cool looking bikini, but if it only comes with 1 texture and the price is $30, I'm not buying. Especially if I can get my hands on an bikini that almost as good but comes with 5 textures, and is priced at $10. Know your market. If bikinis are usually priced at around $10, it's safe to say you can price yours at the same rate, maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, depending on what's all included with your product. Bottom line, if you're wanting to release a product and thinking you'll get rich on just one item, it most likely won't happen. The good merchants on here have been here for years, have several products released during the time they've been here, are known to have good customer service, and are reasonable in their pricing. It seems intimidating, and a lot of hard work (which it can be), but you'll also get some tremendous rewards from it, and have quite a bit of fun as well. Just throwing out some food for thought. Good luck with your item, btw, looking forward to checking it out.