Ok guys, I have a question. Not that it will change the way I do things in this respect, but I just have to ask... I feel like a lot of people who make fractals are downright apologetic-sounding when they mention any post work. I've done it too, so I'm not immune, but why do we do this? What is so bad about postwork, really? Is it still not our own work? Just wondering. how do YOU feel about postwork?

everyone is doing postwork, one more than the other,the main issue must be the fractal, the weird or beautyful shapes and abstraction ask for a creative interpretation. just keep your work in balance, fractals are always intruiging and it is nice to see how some creators build there outstanding compositions, anyway, just a georgeous flame can be enough, but playing with it gives so much fun. RS

You have a good question. I do it by habit and also to explain what I did. I use mostly UF for my fractal images. But then, I do some postwork to add signature, frames, do some tonal and colour balance, some unsharp masking, etc... These are all things that cannot be done in UF. So, if somebody is interested in using UF for the first time, s/he knows what can be done and what cannot be done with it. OK, seems like some promotion for the product ;-). Miche

I normally avoid postwork because I still dream of having my images in a large format printed some day... And every post work done on a smaller size is lost then. Do you keep track of your post work? Could you redo it on a larger size with the same effect? Many filters just take pixels into account and not the magnification... But the whole thing is no religion for me.

Hi Andreas, I suppose that you ask your question to me? I use Photoshop & Painter for postworking. In Photoshop, I only do 'adjust levels' (a histogram stretch in PSP as I know this is what you use), 'adjust variations' and 'unsharp mask' in Photoshop. These ones are easy to do as I always follow a same recipe. For the rest I use Painter. One of Painter features is scripting. So, I always keep a script of my postprocessing. This way, if I change dimensions of my original fractal image, I still have a trace of what to do after in this software. But the big secret if you want to make large prints is planning large from the beginning. Adjustment is easier if you start from large then reduce than the opposite. Miche

I love postwork and announce when I do it so others will know that the program didn't just produce that fractal or the image is comprised of multiple fractals rather than just one and you can't combine them like you can in UF without the use of another program. Much of my postwork is the same layer blending effects that can be done within Ultrafractal, I've always loved layerwork. Most of what I've posted here though is single fractals...they're still my personal favorite. I think both belong here, what's important is the fractal...some are presented better with postwork. ;o)

I really go back and forth on this one. Sometimes I feel a fractal conveys the idea I want to get across on its own, and needs no post. Sometimes there's no 'idea' at all, but only something I find beautiful. Sometimes, though, there are those fractals that just scream "Give me a world to exist in!!" so I do my best to answer. I don't think I'm apologetic about post, but I do wonder sometimes if my work pushes the fractal into another medium entirely.

BUT at the same time, when I can post an image that is entirely fractal with no post, there is something VERY satisfying about actaully saying "no post." I think it's not an apology so much as a quiet way of expressing the triumph of getting a program to do what you really want it to do.

All in all, I feel this is a very individual thing, varying from artist to artist. I think we should all be proud of what we produce, and always unapologetic. As long as it makes YOU, the artist happy, that's really all that matters in the long run.

And that was a lot more than 0.02 cents. LOL

Kat - done babbling for now. ^_^

Well heck Kat...that says how I feel better than I did!!! LOL ;o)

heyyyy you guys are great... ok then. i see all kinds of different aspects now. WOW. thanks guys. I recently had one of my fractals removed from my gallery at deviantart for NOT being a fractal even though I clearly stated which program i used. I began wondering if post work makes it NOT A FRACTAL anymore but heck i don't think so... thanks guys. laura

Wow...really? I guess different sites feel differently, this is the only place other than my site where I post mine. So which one did they remove...is it in your gallery here? ;o)

I do a little of both. I think I announce that there is no post work mainly just to let people know! I'm not against post work by a long shot; I don't mind cutting, chopping and flipping a fractal until I get the look I was looking for. As I learn new tricks, I can't wait to try them on my fractals. I'm like a kid with a new toy. Just much older and the toys are a lot more fun! William

Sometimes there is a measure of satisfaction in achieving a particular result within one application. I think the main reason for mentioning post work, as is common with 3D apps as well as fractals, is that many viewers are artists who habitually think about the techniques or structure of art as well as the aesthetics, so it's a courtesy to the curious. On the subject of whether something "is" a fractal, it's not as simple as what programs are used. XenoDream and UF in particular can make objects/pictures that have little or no fractal aspects, and it's not always obvious just from the result. In XD, an object made from just one holon may be quite complex but has no fractal properties (unless modified by an iterative metamorph such as gnarl or popcorn.) But you can make objects such as vases that are definitely fractals though some viewers may be skeptical (I will be posting a series of teacups soon). Some fractal art communities are equally open to shapes that are mathematical but not fractal, some may not be. Regards, Garth

There was once a thread regarding where to post. One answer was that if you are using a sotware that normally produces fractals (like UF for example) then post here. This gallery is not for fractals only but also for images created with a generator for fractals. many of my last posts do not contain fractals or pseudo-fractals, even some of the spirals are just finite objects, because I worked with a pixel formula. Regards, Andreas

The piece was 'Visitor', actually, but I re-posted it with the frac. next to it. you guys are great. i've been reading the responses and really enjoying this thread. thanks laura

Mostly agreeing with above statements..but also, when I do post a pic that has more elements than just a fractal (usually a Poser figure + postwork painting) I like to post both the before and after pics; that way people can see the foundation fractal, and what it led to in my mind's eye.
mytwocentsworth

Attached Link: http://www.theli.net/TMP/PP.jpg

For me, I don't like to limit myself to a single utility to create my fractals. Instead I'll try out several programs (non-fractal ones) to have them create or render fractals. If this is postproduction though, I'm not sure. :)

Most of the time, the postproduction I do use is for frames to my UF renders. I find that I can create much better frames in Photoshop than in UF, so I'll use Photoshop. No questions asked.
Most of my fractals has more or less been postproduced, often to enhance details, create depth, add textures or even starfields, color or level changes.
I often tend to render my UF fractals as .PSD so I can alter them later in photoshop.

Here is a fractal I rendered with the intention of using postproduction. PP in this case involved lighting, color, deleting of details and adding of texture.

oooh you guys. i feel much better now... thanks. laura

Attached Link: There is no such animal as post processing

There is no such thing as post work on a fractal or any piece of art for that matter unless you are talking about framing and glass. All the work that you do to accomplish your desired results is just artwork. Lighting a fractal is no different than adding white or paynes gray oil paint to other colors to achieve light and dark. Although fractals so stand alone unlike other forms of art, some are far more interesting in context. In my opinion this flap over post processing is just one of snobbery. Rembrandt used to spit on his canvas to thin out some paint. Was that post processing? Virginia

Well I agree with you about the flap being snobbery...I think that's one reason I don't it done here. LOL But I do consider postwork to be anything done to the fractal after it is rendered. Ultrafractal, Gimp and Xenodream all allow you to render on a layer and you don't have to switch to a separate graphics program to manipulate the layers and mask and what not. But even though you haven't done the final render yet you're still working on an already rendered fractal to create a composition. I would correlate Rembrandt spitting on his canvas with my trying different variations or gradients and adding or tweaking triangles within the program as I'm creating the fractal. ;o) The link took me to the xenodream site but I didn't see anything pointing to a discussion or article on post work. :o(

I am beginning to see fractals a raw material for whatever my imagination can run with. I have seen some outstanding renders where little postwork has been done. I have also seen captivating artistic pieces where there has been extensive postwork. Imagination. The above flame is a pretty basic spiral creation. You can tweek and color it all you want, but it's still the standard spiral flame.

.......But put it into psp, add another layer and play with two filters (and a liberal use of the select tool), let my inagination run, and it becomes.. Emergence: Birth of a Fire Dragon. LOL

a bit strange that a site decides to remove art because it wasn't a fractal according to them really, hopefully they won't remove mine, for else the site won't be mentioned in the top worldwide computer graphics sites on my behalf *SMILE* anyways, i do more postwork than fractalizing images, as a matter of fact anyone can make fractals without having to use the fractal generators or equivalent programs i bet ya can't much tell of a difference between some of my work and that of a fractal artist, i just use a different method or calculation. in my old days as a young highschool student i made fractals manually, and thats what i am doing now as well, just having another tool, i.e. computer, instead of a pen and liner ... and of course i use zillionz of different programs to accomplish anything which looks more like a fractal than a watercolour-painting, and if i take the fractal away, it looks like a painting. have a nice day Harmen

I think adding postwork makes it more "artisticly mine". Especially with apophysis.Here lately Ive taken basic flames and added my own "vision" to it with psp.Sometimes,if its beyond being recognisable as the starting flame,I'll add the starter into the finished piece. Like so: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=641960&Start=1&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes. With Eye of the Dragon,it wasnt very interesting with just a nice texture and had a dead black spot in the lower corner. I selected that spot with the magic wand and used the kaliedoscope tool in psp to spin the original flame into something interesting to fill the spot.I STILL had a dead spot within that space,so I selected it again and spun it around once more.It' all still the same flame.

I think I,myself,would be upset if someone deleted my image from an art site either way.You'd think,if it was art,even if it WAS in a category that someone else thought it didnt belong in,that they'd be respectful enough to ask you to move it into the right(?) category FIRST.Thats assuming they know enough about your picture to know HOW you made it and KNOW that it's definately NOT a fractal...unless somewhere,maybe,in their category list there's a specific mention of posting ONLY "pure" fractals??

It seems to me that a "pure" fractal according to some people's definitions would be nothing more than a black & white line drawing. No color, no depth, no texture and definitely not "art". Stan

Attached Link: http://home.comcast.net/~fractalsbykeith/pgs/frac148.htm

I'll be a snob and say that there is something to creating an image within the bounds of a specific medium. If it's a watercolor then it's a watercolor. If it's oil then it's an oil painting. If it's a fractal then it was made with a fractal program. We have seen a lot of scenic UF images posted here lately that could surely be done better with Bryce or even a camera, but they were done with UF, and that is at least part of the point of doing such an image. That's why I like to mention what postwork I have done. As far as how much postwork is too much postwork, I don't know, nor do I care. For me the challenge is to do as much as I can in UF. If others feel that same challenge, great. If not, that's great too. For the record, (because someone keeps talking about postwork on my images) with one exception in Renderosity, my postwork consists of basic adjustments, like contrast and sharpness, and that's it! One more thing, I think frames should be made of wood. That's just my personal preference. I don't do this either, but I do think it's good to sign an image. I'm just too lazy to do it. Keith

What is the difference between doing the underwater scene in UF or psp? Not everyone has UF, and to my mind creating it in psp (or whatever program one has), using fractals would be the same thing. The art comes from within, and using what you have at hand to create it, not the specific programs themselves. Miriah

Miriah, What's the difference between doing an underwater scene with watercolors or oils? Each requires a different set of skills and techniques. They may be similar, both use brushes, but they are still very different. Part of the challenge, not all of it, but part of it, is to master the medium. That way the art can come from within at it's best. Like I said above, I don't care what everyone else uses to create images. I just think that there is some value to creating an image within a specific medium. Like creating an oil painting of a mountain meadow. I couild easily snap a photo and then take it to PSP and apply all kinds of artsy filters to it and make into art. Or I could paint it with oils. One method is not more or less valid than the other, but a good oil painting deserves respect simply because it's an oil painting. If someone can come up with art using UF without whipping out the airbrush in PSP, they deserve repsect because they are showing that they have mastered the medium. Keith

exactly... well, i don't use UF, FE, Chaos, POVRAY, Apophysis nor use other peoples formulas to make my designs, not that i can't, but i don't like windoooz and all the troubles with it, i use a macintosh, which i use for 20 years allready without any real significant complaints; i may get annoyed sometimes when an application suddenly quits, but thats because i do things which the computer can't handle ... like manipulating an image with photoshop which takes more RAM than it has ... but i get there one way or the other so i use artmatic pro which only works on a mac, AND i design my stuff with an unique style no one has, i work huge, and zoom in till 1600% sometimes, till i find no mistake in my designs, i manipulate [distort, skew, twirl, mirror, scale, blend etc] my images so much for many hours till i decide it's perfect and ready to publish; and can print it in any format as well, without blurry side-effects i publish in this fractal-gallery, not only because ppl like me to, but also because the basic is an artmatic pro fractal and like rumple, i feel home here, and we may inspire others to try something similar with other software than what we use anyone is an artist in his/her own view, no matter what he/she uses to make his/her designs, and shouldn't be judged by others for he/she doesn't use this or that software to make his/her creations... or say: oh, i don't know the software your using, so i don't comment ... or: he doesn't belong here for he doesn't use Ultra Fractal or Fractal Explorer or whatever, this is the fractal gallery, not meant to be only for fractalists who use wintel programs ... and per definition a fractal can be made with other programs than with fractal generators ... i use a formula, a macro, in photoshop, to repeatedly do the same transformation: scaling, rotating, mirroring till i have on my screen what i want thats my two pennies smile have a nice weekend and be happy :-))

btw keith, thats a nice beach scenery, hope the fish can breath BIG SMILE ... would use a little blueish gradient blurred and some sun-light effects to the bottom to make it really look like an underwater scenery, or better go dive in the water with an underwater camera and make that pic LOL hope it will help ya to make a decent design Harmen

Attached Link: http://home.comcast.net/~astrokeith/pics.htm

Now cruel, do you need to get ugly with me? Let me say it one more time: I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU CREATE YOUR IMAGES. I have my own standards and I am not trying to impose them on anyone. I agree, there are no rules. I have been told many times that Coral Reef does not look right. Bird too. They don't right to me either. I don't even consider them to be good art, but they are decent technical accomplishments. Looking at what is in the best and most fractal galleries, most folks appreciate technical accomplishments. Let me take a chance on being "a tired conceit" and say that fractals are in a class of their own. I just put up a plain old mandy that will gain attention not because it's a piece of art, but because folks appreciate the math behind it. There sits the difference between fractals and everything else digital. We can create our own formulas with an infinate number of different combinations, variations and locations. There's an inherent beauty to that, but probably not to anyone outside of the fractal world, so it appears as conceit. So be it.

hmm.. okay ... here a 2 second fractal from me LOL without any postwork

Terry, I see your point. Please don't put words in my mouth. I do respect and admire good art no matter how it was created, including post processed fractals. Matt, for example, has made some spectacular images with fractals in Photoshop. I didn't give it a second thought when I saw his images, I only admired it. This thread started out with the question about how many of us feel the need to explain and even excuse ourselves when we mention post processing on our images. I was only trying to explain why I did it. Beyond that you can read whatever you want to in my statements. I'm done.

I don't think there is no need to apologize for post work and I do understand the Devian art doesn't recognize even Vision of Chaos as a fractal program or didn't. I do not feel adobe or psp should be listed in any other way but as post processing. However, I do have a problem with other programs being used in a fractal when 50% or more is the final image itself (example) Bryce for one. Adding a poser figure is partly used in post processing to give the fractal additional realism however it only enhances the original fractal where Bryce for example takes on much more then just fractals or post processing of any kind. Believe me I admire anyone who can do superb work on fractals only and do not need any type of post processing.. However, those of us who do use some type of post processing does that not make us as good as the purrest fractal artist?? it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Another fine line especially when most who do not do post processing have been doing fractal for 15 plus years, verses people like myself who may only have less then a year into fractals with the ultimate goal of not using any type of post processing in time. We all have to learn somewhere, not everyone is perfect not even those who do not do post work I'd rather view an image with post work that has made that image complete then to see fractal done with no post work yet are dirty with gradients, or blurry, or that look like they were just tossed around in a true fractal program . Again what is considered a fractal I've been told as long as the main focus is on the fractal that is all that is considered... So don't be so quick to judge us that do use post work. yet bask within yourself those of you that do NOT use post work and be proud of what you do. I like Terry am a bit over welmed by this on going decussion of post processing verses fractal purity... After all ask yourself can you truely believe everything that a poster lists under the phrase no post work????? I only believe that statement to be true with very few true artists here. thats my penny's worth Carolyn

Terry, I applaud your post. Hurray, beautifully put. So glad to see such silliness trampled on with such eloquence. I may put your post on my site. :) Mindy aka Peapodgrrl www.peapoddesign.net/gallery

This has been an interesting thread. As one who has both post-processed images to the hilt and more recently (within the last couple of years) adds only blurring, sharpening and/or gamma adjustment in post-pro, I can say the loudest opponents of post-processing are those- for the most part, who are either "snobs" as Virginia pointed out..or haven't yet learned to use the image-enhancement tools to make a good image better. Linda

Bravo, Terry! I agree wholeheartedly. Linda

Okay, I've been seeing this rehashed so many times now... I like to look at art...period. Whether pure, post-processed, pasteurized, pulverized, you name it...right on down to the cute cut-n-paste stuff my kids used to hang on the fridge... I don't question the reason, or the process. I don't question anyone's ability with a program. When I see something that appeals to me, processes and such are secondary. Distantly secondary. I think it is great that an artist announces how they made an image. It's nice to know the history of the work. It is also helpful for those who are learning. The Fractal gallery here, is open to both the 'pure', and the 'post-processed', and that is a wonderful thing :) As long as everyone is happy doing what they are doing, what does it matter...really? My 2 cents... Nick

Exactly, Nick. Well-said. Why does it matter? And why is this abysmally dull subject raised again and again? And why do some people feel this overwhelming need to arrogantly (and absurdly) pass judgement on others' ways of creating art? When someone explains this to me to my satisfaction, they will receive one small case of Vermont Maple Syrup via UPS posthaste. Mindy PS......Hi FractalLinda :) PS.......this post was "pure"....no post processing.

Quote - PS.......this post was "pure"....no post processing.

LMAO@Mindy. :)) Everybody's different and has their own way of rationalizing things is why.They want recognition and acceptance for their artistic skills,whatever they may be. I have a friend,whos an excellent artist...he paints signs and has a talent with the airbrush hat blows me away. I tryed getting him into computer generated art and was told that computer generated art isnt really art at all and took no skill whatsoever. I must say,he lost alot of respect from me with that comment but then I thought about it and got over it.Thats just his opinion.Everybody has one,even if they sometimes stink to high heaven. ;)

You're going for the syrup aren't ya?? ;o)

Haha! No...not really goin for the syrup as I dont believe Mindy will see it my way.Just adding my two cents...AGAIN. Gonna have a dollar in it soon. LOL!

Thanks, now ya got me thinkin' about breakfast :) French toast, eggs, bacon, sausage gravy and biscuits... if ya need me, I'll be in the kitchen :)

Gosh that sounds good...matter of fact...sounds like an invite to me! LOL ;o)

Syrup for everyone! ;)

Firing up the griddle...;)

I had fish when I could have had Vermont maple syrup?????? Arrrrrghhhhhhhhh. Bad timing.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=669991&Start=1&Artist=jocko500&ByArtist=Yes

I do posgt work i see things that i can make art with like my stairway to Heaven http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=669991&Start=1&Artist=jocko500&ByArtist=Yes now if you looks at stairs this is theimage i saw and in my mind I saw stairway to Heaven http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=673480&Start=1&Artist=jocko500&ByArtist=Yes In stairway to heaven I just use fracts even on the human I clone them from fracts for the pure reason that this is fracts. Maybe I thinking crazy but most of my fracts is with fracts even the eyes and flames in the skull i just posted http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=674208&Start=1&Artist=jocko500&ByArtist=Yes I do these things so people can see the things I see in my mind that all. Then do this thing belone in 2d or mixed medium?

Nice work. I think it belongs in the Fractal gallery :)

thanks

a litle late but...As you can see from my creations I think postwork rocks. Anything is allowed imo to achieve your vision. 1 thing though ..I think if you want to post in in the fractal gallery at least 1 pixel must be fractal ..LOL.