Hi all
In order for the Fractal Forum and Gallery to be a fun, helpful, and an overall enjoyable place, communications need to be established.
If at any time, there is any problem, please let myself, or Barbara (DreamWarrior) know. This includes harrassing IMs or e-mail. Any correspondance would be confidential, and would be handled in the best way possible.
We want everyone to enjoy being here, and that can only happen if everyone helps in communicating problems.

Please feel free to contact us at any time. That is what we are here for.

Thank you

Nick

good point and well addressed! cheers guys!

Thanks Nick, I just wished those others who I know needed to talk to you or Barbara would still bring this to you, It is never too late people. Point well taken, so report those nasty IM's or e-mails to Nick or DreamWarrior Please Thanks Carolyn

I agree. Lots of wonderful people told me that if I left, the person who sent me a nasty message would win, but surely, if you receive a rotten message, then just ignore it without reporting the person, then he HAS won. The more people choose to ignore the nasties, the more they will keep on doing their nasty work. Please please report any horrible spiteful messages, it is the only way these sort will be stopped. My thanks to Nick and Barbara, Thelma.

Thank you for starting this thread vclaszlo. Hopefully people will report the problem. I would truly hate to see anyone leave this site over something so stupid and cruel!! OOPs, this was posted under hempknotics, sorry guys. My daughter is actually using the site now, YEAH!. May take a bit for us to get use to having to log ourselves out, LOL.

So.....let me get this straight. Someone was upset because his art wasn't in the top twenty list and send harassing emails and IMs because of that? LOLOLOL That's hysterically funny. Sorry anyone had to get upset, though, but geez, I hope the humor in this idiocy and be seen and enjoyed. It's a riot.

You got it and it isn't the first time this jerk has caused this exact same thing before.. I think he's obessed with the hot 20 instead of enjoying each others work totally ridiculous ....for sure.

I view that behavior as totally inmature and would think people like that would just eventually ruin the quality family unit atmosphere up here. Too bad, life is too short for such behavior.

So very true the realy question is who is going to be next , who will be the next victim??

Whoever did this should be banned, period. No second chances, no grace period. A person such as this doesn't suddenly become a good citizen and happy contributor. Sick jealousy courses through the veins to such a point that they have to be revmoed, like a cyst. Get rid of him. To do otherwise is just naive.

PS......wow, my banner looks pretty cool. :)

For the record......anybody who thinks being in the top twenty has any other import than being in the top twenty with friends who enjoy voting for you, hasn't been paying attention. But who cares? Places like this are supposed to be fun and to take it seriously is more absurd than the stained Bugs Bunny tee shirt I am wearing today. :)

Not being a very competitive person, but having enjoyed so many of your styles of art, I am just happy someone takes the time to drop by and comment once in a while. The creep also hassled me, and I was not even in the top twenty. I guess he was just jealous that I voted on others more than him. Who knows what lurks in the mind of a wonderful, slightly off-key artist? I'm here to have a fantastic journey, and all of you have given me that, even if I don't have time to comment on everyone's art. Thank you all very much!!! (:

I wish you all would take what happens in Iraq, and other places in the world, and to innocent women and children, who are raped and slaughtered without even knowing why as seriously as this totally unimportant incident!!!! Probably I will be banned too, but I just HATE sentimental and hysterical people that get upset like 3 year old children!!!!! LOVE PEACE AND RESPECT IS MY WISH FOR YOU ALL! Enjoy your selves some more while you are at it, and a good evening to all! Eveline

Message edited on: 08/16/2004 14:47

This really brings smile to my face since I was the first one in April this year to know first handed how it feels it is nice to know those of you who are the wonderful true artists feel like some of us do. This is not about who makes the top 20 least it isn't for me it's getting to know wonderful artists being able to learn from the best with out someone jumping down your throat or receiving those nasty IM's. To me its an honor to just be around real artists like Keith,Mindy,Rick,Vivian and many more who really cares who is on the top 20 this Gallery is one of the best Gallery's rendo has why because of the friendiness and help those of you who have been fractalling for years are kind enough to share your knowledge Thank You :)

Sheesh, you know there always has to be an antagonist around. Frankly, all of us are entitled to our own opinions in my humble opinion, and why can't others feel the same way? I don't think any of us are acting childish. Me thinks you protest too much Eveline. (:

I, too, resent being reminded yet again of the hate and genocide in the world--as if we are unaware of it--- on a friggin' art community site when daring to venture an opinion. I'm with you, Carol, I think it was inappropriate and insulting. Why express an opinion on anything, when there is so much misery in the world, right? Bleh. Hey Eveline, I can direct to you to a George Bush bash site, if you'd like. They may not know anything about Mandelbrots, but who cares? At least they'll discuss only what's important.

Message edited on: 08/16/2004 18:44

I'd just like to state my 3 year old can't act nearly as calm and polite like the others I've seen here, lol :P Though I do wish people would just calm down and allow others their opinions. As long as no harm is done :).

We do live in a free world where everyone is entitled to their opinion however seems strange that only one person is upset with this thread. However I also agree with Carol and Mindy 100% I think it was inappropriate and insulting Eveline

Message to eveline. Are you Mr Naasty's mother or sister ???

lol Thelma! I think you've got it!! << xo (:

Now now now ladies, are we getting personal here?
Did it ever occur to ANY of you to ask Mr Nasty ( ..or Arend Nijdam, to use his ordinary name) for HIS opinion on all this????I am pretty sure you did not....
By the way you are talking about him, and panting one after the other: "Oooh yes, he did it to me too, who wants to be his next victim??" one can only conclude He sure must be the Horned One!!
For this "War on Mr. Nasty" surely brings some excitement into your petty little lives......
Maybe you all should take a look here, so you can learn something about Stupid Group Behavior and ways to change your way of thinking!
http://www.co-intelligence.org/co-stupidity.html

Forever yours in co-forgiveness, Eveline

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 11:41

He has you snowed Eveline, as he did all of us that he later harrassed. Wait until it's your turn. You sound just like him. Honestly, I wonder if you aren't him using another one of his fake names. I feel so sorry for you.

Eveline wait just wait one day it will be your turn and when it is you will then know how the rest of us feel no need to get nasty this is an open forum to speak as we feel Do you honestly believe he is innocent (Arend) think again He will not stop I don't care how many times he is suspended he is obbessed with it all. A real shame too since he is a wonderful Artist but he, himself has done this not any of us. so stuff that in your stupidty link. Enough is enough. It is bad enough to take his rath without taking yours, neither one is worth it. End of my postings see I have so much more better things to do then read this thread every 5 minutes. However the question still stands who will be the next one. Like I really care stupidity runs around the world.

Eveline, why don't find yourself a bottle to wedge yourself into, like any other pill?

Hahahaha! getting the hang of it now,huh Mindy dear? See, RR is just like Reality, same Power Games, same Never Listening to Anybody but Yourself...Big Egos catch the most Antagonism..? Or not? And all of this NOT in my Native Language... Left an open question: Did you, or did you not ask Arend for his opinion, or explanation?

And an answer: No I am not his mother, nor Himself in disguise... I am just a good friend of his that will not allow him to get slaughtered by people that did not even wonder why he wrote what he wrote...Or WHAT he wrote....Nor ANYBODY for that matter...
But hey, shit, shoot all the people that act out of line for some reason.....
Is'nt this what "HUMANITY" has always been very good at...

Your loving Idiot, Eveline

I wasn't talking about Arend at all, Eveline. I didn't say a word about him. In fact, I didn't even know until today that he was the person who supposedly did this. What I was commenting on was you scolding people who had the right to express an opinion. A few people here were bullied by someone, and harassed. I don't like it when people are told they can't express themselves, or that they have no right to feel a certain way. You want to stick up for your friend? Fine. But don't censor people, invalidate them or belittle their feelings. Their feelings are very real to them.

Gotcha!!!! Refresh within 10 minutes, LOL Your ever refreshing Eveline

:) You're a damn good artist, Eveline. For what it's worth.

Lets keep it at that, Mindy dear! Same goes for you..Sleep well, I am going to watch Catwoman, to still my appetite for fantasy movies... No grudge..For what it is worth... Your vigilante, Eveline

Lovely people: Let's remember how this thread started, by Nick: "In order for the Fractal Forum and Gallery to be a fun, helpful, and an overall enjoyable place, communications need to be established."... Now, if we start yelling at eachother, the noise doesn't let us communicate. Let's move on. Barbara

We already had, so there was no need for your post.

I think, for what it's worth, we are losing sight of the problem. There are too many people here that are targets! If your work gets voted into the hot 20, then all of a sudden you get harassing IM's telling you how undeserving you were to receive that honor! This has continued and been allowed to go on for a long time now! If you never take a stand for what is right, then what's the use for the freedom of speech, which we all currently have? I for one agree that the person we are speaking of, has a definite problem! If he is allowed to continue to be a part of this community, then there should be rules and regulations for HIS actions if this kind of behavior continues! No one told him to react the way he did, he did this ALL ON HIS OWN! Another thing, I don't think the VICTIMS are acting like 3 year old kids, I think they are tired of this sort of thing being allowed to continue! They have every right to voice their feelings about any subject, whether it be critisizm that was constructive and helpful, or being told that their work wasn't good enough to be in the top 20! Has anyone asked Thelma, classyladytwo, or the others, just exactly what he said to them? I'm sure they have told a few people, maybe if they saved those IM"s they should post them, so we all can see HIS behavior! Sorry if someone has a problem with this post, but I'm tired of my friends being tortured! Yes I know someone said he has mental issues, but who doesn't I think at one point and time we all have problems, but again that doesn't give us the right to trash anybody else's work or their feelings! Vicky and William

Exactly. It is very sad when you admire someone's amazing talent, and think they are a friend, then they turn on you. Guess you are never to old to be fooled. Bummer.

I agree with Vicky that anybody who abuses anyone here, via IM or email, should be banned. Period. Nobody should have to go through that. It really should be a done deal, and not up for discussion.

Secondly, nobody should be scolded for expressing their feelings, which is why I got into a pissing match with a friend of Arend's---even though I understand and respect a friend's loyalty.

Finally, I am not sure, Carol, if you meant by a friend "turning on you" that they harass you, or if you simply meant they don't vote for your work. I certainly don't gauge my friendships that way. I would hope that people make that important distinction between honest critiquing of art and friendship, 'cuz they is two different planets. The friends that are nearest and dearest to me tell me when my work is sh*t, and I love them all the more for it.

If it was the latter, then it's probably safe to assume that more than one person (you) feels as you do--that you believe that a friend failing to vote for your work is tantamount to betraying a friendship. Even though I personally don't operate that way, I fully understand it and the hurt feelings that ensue. I am also not so sure if there is any "cure" for it, especially on a site like this.

An example you might relate to: I run a very busy discussion board. My dear friend moderates it for me. There are people in our overall community that I loathe, that she pals up to......and visa-versa. I can't tell you how many arguments and discussions we've had, and hurt feelings, because she "posts to" so-and-so, or I said a friendly word to so-and-so. We both, at various times, have felt it was a personal betrayal of the friendship. Through time and lots of discussion, we were able to draw up rules and boundaries for this kind of thing that we both felt comfortable with so we wouldn't have to hurt over this stuff again. The same thing may hold true for art voting here, that some kind of honest discussion with one's friends may be called for, if the relationship is real and truly important to you.

I hope everything works out for the best, and certainly hope that nobody ever has to be abused for the act of creating art.

Mindy

How about a quick suggestion? Since we all agree that the Hot 20 is no real big deal, after all there is no prizes or cash awarded. Why not just do away with it, especially if it is going to continually cause these kind of problems? My 2 cents worth, William

Attached Link: TOS

The issue was handled the minute it was informed to us.

We all want this to be a (yet) better place. So let's please try to make it so in a civilized manner.

Barbara
Fractal Coordinator

I am very happy to see that a real discussion has finally started...i do agree with William that it might be a good thing to do away with the top 20. But probably this is not possible, as the fractal top 20 is run by the central database engine of this site.

But anyhow, maybe I was a bit harsh in my first reaction, but I am a person with strong emotions, and sometimes they "boil over". So I apologize to the persons that I might have offended, this was not my intention. My only intention was to incent a real discussion about this topic.

I still think that Arend should be asked to explain his actions, and maybe the harassing IM's should be read by at least the moderators ( or maybe this has already happened?)
A case like this wins a lot by treating it as openly as possible!

I hope this matter will be solved in a constructive way, and can be used as an example in future cases. For as long as this kind of community site is based on highly competitive principles ( voting, rating etc) I am sure that problems like this will keep on producing themselves....

Yours in respect, Eveline

Hi Eveline, You have a lot of class, as I suspected. You stuck up for your friend, and that's to be commended. True, effective discussion comes from dialogue like this, dialogue that the moderator is trying to neuter. Too bad, innit? Mindy

Moderating is an art in itself, as you will surely know Mindy;-)))) It is not for everybody.....

I want to add a few words about Arend, because he is my friend....Of course I had and still have my "issues" with him too...He gets easily obsessed and sometimes this clouds his sense of reality...Add to this his rudimentary grip on the English language, and you can see the source for this kind of problems...
He often is like a little boy, and speaks his mind without thinking about the consequences...But he also can be as sweet as this little boy, so happy with a thing of beauty, or with a bit of warmth someone gives to him...

I developed a "communication-strategy" to deal with this: Sometimes I simply ignore, or step back for a while, and, if allegations were made in public ( as has been often the case in some groups I have been in with him..) I ask him loudly and openly for an explanation. We speak the same language (Dutch), which also helps a lot!

Mental issues, of course, but you cannot simply ban everybody that behaves strange or un-adapted straight away...
(and probably another person with a like set of problems will fill the space immediately;-))))

Sorry about ranting like this, but I have a lot of people around me in my life, that are "different" in one way or another, so it is a bit of an issue with me!

A hopeful Eveline:-))))

As I stated earlier Mindy, I'm not, nor have I ever been very competitive. I couldn't care less about the top twenty.(message 13) I appreciate everyone's opinions, and just love all the art around here. (:

Personally, I think i'll wait until i've seen all the evidence and heard both sides of the story before I pass judgement, until then I will give the person the benefit of the doubt. After all since his native language isn't english and we all know what a poor grasp of the language he has then this could all be a misunderstanding. I'm not saying this because he is a good friend of mine because he isn't, I barely know him. Also, I think you were out of line naming him, Eveline. No matter what your intentions were you have no doubt cast more suspicion on this person from people who didn't even know who it was before. Until he chooses to step forward and explain/defend himself he should have remained anonymous. Lastly, the Hot 20 is a crock of shit. How many times are we going to have to say this before people start listening? I just took a look at it and all 20 spots are occupied by 8 people...That's an average of 2 and a half images per person (i'm a wiz at mathematics). Out of those 20 I can only see '2' maybe 3 that deserve to be there... I wasn't going to say anything about this but... A while ago I did an experiment, some may remember it 'The BFS Experiment'? It wasn't just an experiment in spirals but also in popularity and manipulation. I wanted to see if I could increase the number of comments I received just by commenting on every image that was posted. The average number of comments that I received per image up until the start of the experiment was...10.4 The average number per image while I was commenting on everything that was posted was...23.3 That's an increase of like...130%? (I lied, i'm not a wiz at mathematics). When I stopped commenting again the average per image dropped back down to...12.8 and now it has gone back to about the same as it was before I started. The really interesting thing is, that before and since the experiment I hadn't had an image that got into the Hot 20 in a long time. Yet while it was going on I got '2' in there at the same time...coincidence? I don't think so. I'm not saying that people who comment on every image are purposely manipulating their own work. I'm just saying that commenting (and voting) inevitably brings these results whether you are trying for it or not. I wasn't even being 'over the top' in my comments. I didn't laud everything as a masterpiece but just said it was a nice image. That doesn't mean I didn't like the images I commented on either, it just means they were nice. I can't help wondering how many comments I would have got if i had been over the top though... So, anyone that is lacking in the comments and votes department...You know what to do... As for me, i'm back where I started and happier for it. Only getting comments from people who actually like the images for what they are and not for what they get them in return (ie. comments and votes). No one feels pressurised to comment on my images and I don't feel the same to comment on theirs. I may go weeks without posting a single comment or I may comment on every image posted today. The decision is in my hands. Matt.

Matt, thank you. Your experiment re-enforces what I said earlier: None of this should be taken too seriously. That includes 60 comment images or 3 comment images, or the top of the hot 20 or no hot 20. As far as what deserves to be where, that depends how you want to judge. I becoming more convinced that the hot 20 and comments are based more on fun and friends (another phrase for popularity) than it is on the quality of the image. The most commented gallery has a perfect example of this right at the top. That image was the artist's first post in the fractal gallery, one of her first Apophysis images. It is a nice image, but 88 comments? Obviously that artist is on a lot of favorite artist lists. Does she deserve to be at the top of the most commented fractal gallery? Sure, why not? She must be well liked and very popular. Usually we get back what we put out. I often see 10 comment images that I believe are better than many that appear in the hot 20 or that get 30 or 40 comments. I'll take a chance and use myself as an example. I have made a lot of people angry and hurt some feelings. (I'm sure that just this little post is going to irritate somebody) I haven't had an image in the hot 20 for weeks. In my humble opinion, my last 2 butterfly images are pretty good. I think they are better than the image at the top of the fractal most commented gallery, but they didn't even make it in the hot 20. If comments and the hot 20 are based mostly on fun and friends then I get what I deserve. At least I can feel confident that the comments that I do get are an indicator of the quality the image. I would rather have that than 30 or 40 automatic comments just because I am a great guy. I know, everyone, it's the same old tired topic, but if you have read this far, you're not that bored. NONE of this should be taken too seriously. By the way and for what it's worth, Arend and I had a brief discussion on the topic of popularity a few months ago. Keith

Realy qiuck before i'm of to work. i must agree with most of what Keith has stated here about the hot20. Last time i looked i had 5 images in there. Now, I know they have quality but are they realy that good, to give me 1/4 of all places? I doubt that very much. I see the work of grb, qaryon, jockc or encrypted to name just a few, and i'll ask myself, what do these people have to do more to get some final recognition ? I believe the hot20 is a refelction of the mix of quality AND popularity. I don't believe it is popularity on it's own Keith... But anyway, don't take it too seriously, i still have to recieve my first cash for being in there ...grin... have a great day all !!

i have been sitting on my hands for a while and followed this discussion, as for when i have had a warning too, because a moderator saw my message as trouble it isn't really the issue of the hot20 ... it's the language which is taken wrongly... all what seems to be natural to us native speakers may be translated in a different way and be seen as offensive... i am experiencing the same thing with it all, as for a dutch joke translated into english may seem to have felt as an insult, but it's natural to us when spoken in our own native tongue also our culture is quite different than for instance the american culture it seems, we from a different country has to fit into yours to get appreciated and acknowledged, but we can't always fit in i also get often a message saying "learn english first or get a translator before you spam your opinion!!!" although english is my second language... german is my 3rd and i also speak french i do too have communication problems sometimes with my fiancee, Sharon, because of my language, but we both solve it quite well together. so i ask you, don't take everything so very literary and serious, read between the lines, and try to think what he/she means by what his/her wordings are not everyone is blessed with multi-lingual skills to make him/herself understood, as some have problems translating as which is asked in another thread my two eurocents smile Harmen

Hi Matt, and others!

I quote: "Also, I think you were out of line naming him, Eveline. No matter what your intentions were you have no doubt cast more suspicion on this person from people who didn't even know who it was before. Until he chooses to step forward and explain/defend himself he should have remained anonymous."

I totally disagree with you!*
First I knew that it was true ( the IM's) because Arend himself told me about it, plus the problems that came from them...Friends talk about this kind of things, and he felt terribly awkward about it, especially when his English is so poorly!
Second: I got sick and tired of the " Mr. Nasty" pogrom conducted on this forum, while everybody concerned knew EXACTLY who it was!

So stop telling ME all the time that I am the one that acted wrongly by taking it up for my friend! Especially when YOU admit you did not know anything about this incident in the first place.....

I do, however agree with you on the poularity topic, that for me has been not very intersting in a long time, as I know that most people do not see the quality of my images anyhow, and I am very happy with people commenting who did not miss, but enjoyed what I made;-))))))

But anyhow, I do not feel I have done anything wrong here, at least I tried to help things clear up, which is more than can be said about most of you!

It is always very easy to try to cut off the head of someone that sticks it out for some reason or other...But that also is part of the same group politics that I loathe so much!

I do not have, nor is it my intention to make trouble for anyone posting here, quite the contrary...If you had read my posts really well, and tried to understand in stead of looking for someting to antagonize about, you would have seen that my aim is balance and harmony!

Harmony and respect, Eveline

THIS MESSAGE IS FOR EVERYBODY ON THIS FORUM* Arend wrote me this morning and explained to me he tried to upload a message to this forum, and it never showed up! I have no clue about what has happened, I think here a beautiful task lies for the moderators of this forum... Anyhow, I decided to post his text below. ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- I have raed this discussion and have try to understand all your reactions Very difficult for me Have tell most of you all that my English is very bad and have ask patience for that. Eveline has say it right i think so, i react most to emotional but i stay after all my critic for the Hot 20 and the votings system Its not normal that in a group of 60 to 70 fractelaars always the same people are on top You may know i have also done a test and have give anybody a comment and for most also a vote a few weeks result i has for weeks 3 or 4 images in the Hot list and sooooo much hugs :-))) Not to believe sssstttt only from the woman part of the group LOL After that i saw this a complete wrong action from me and i have delete a few of my image from my gallery to make more space for another artists for a Hot 20 place Have some of you tell from this action Give no names but the just persons understand what i mean Reaction where Arend you can not make that you hurt people that have giving you a vote Result where that i saw after my action that a few special artists now has 3 image on the same time there and not one of the another members that make great art and that deserves a place there conclusion is that you have to make a trip to the complete list of uploads and giving comments as Super Cool and fabulois + V I see that many of you do that on that manner and yes i call that manupilation and i know how it works from out my own test But all the members that has not so much free time to that but make,s great art has not any chance to have a place in that Hotlist and again a mean not my self so as so much of you always think as i read the prived reaction in my mailbox Of course i like it to have there a image as the pic it really deserve ,s This my personal opinion read it pleae carryful and (e)specially try to understand it Has cost me much time to find all this words I have no trouble as you ban me out for comments so as some of you think and do on this moment and also not as you have make the decision to give me not more votes for my work for reason that it is not good enough That ,s your choiche But i have trouble as i see some reactions under my images that has a Hot 20 place Take a look under a few special "ena" I give not the votes you do !!!! Brrrrr long story Ciao Arend and i wish you much lucky fractalshots ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for your understanding, Eveline

Dirk, I agree. It works out that the most populat people are also great artists. A few of us are on several favorite artists lists and they deserve to be there. The trouble is if they are on 40 favorite artist lists they will get 40 comments and land in the hot 20 regardless of what the image is. Flames are also popular.

Keith,Dirk, your posts are OT! This discussion is not about popularity and the top 20 ( although it plays a role;-)) but about the "harrassing IM's" Arend allegedly has sent to Thelma. Please, follow the thread closely before reacting! Eveline

OK, sorry. For a moment I actually returned to caring about what goes on around here. I'll go back to ignoring it.

LOL Deagol :) Cutie :)