Hi folks Yesterday (local hour) I posted here a message to the latin community, talking about the spanish Poser forum at "you-know-which" website. Today it was deleted, and I have received a notice of a Renderosity Moderator where says that my post "was removed as it contained a link to a adult sight only which is against our TOS Advertising or linking to any publications and/or web sites that are age restricted due to content, and/or pornographic in nature" I only say: 1.- This is the law. Sorry if I have violated it. "Nevermore", quoth the Raven. Dura lex sed lex 2.- Be carefull if in any peoples question about a prop or similar, you knows this one is at that "you-know-which" website. Maybe you might violate the TOS if you pronounces its name 3.- My post only wanted to help the enormous spanish-speaker 3D community that the Rosity administrators have forgotten. Its sad that Rosity presumes to be the biggest 3d community ... and the only important Poser forum in spanish isnt here but in an adults' site (though that "you-know-which" website is another 3d art community) 4.- I believed that in this site you needed to have the legal age to can register. I obey TOS and I wont put any more links to that "you-know-which" website nor pronounce its name, but I think that I can to give my opinion: so many precaution seems ridiculous to me. I can upload a pic with a million tits with only a nudity tag, but I cant speak about another sites though its clear in my post that I want to help the community and not to do advertising of that "you-know-which" website 5.- These romans are crazy... :(

Maybe you might violate the TOS if you pronounces its name Yes, actually, it is if you include the .com part. If you just say the name without the .com that's okay, though. No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, that rule came from a site admin. bonni

Well, I include the .com, so I violate TOS I dont include the .com, so I dont violate TOS But if I put the name without the .com, anybody who has a minimal knowledge of internet can find it in a search engine, so its the same that if I put the name with .com, so I violate TOS I need an aspirine. Crazy romans... :((((

Yeah, it's a bit crazy but under this schizophrenic arrangement, you can still accomplish your purpose of informing people, so what can you say. If they really wanted to keep people from corrupting the masses, they'd forbid any mention, with or without the ".com". I suppose the rationale is to avoid "promoting" adult content without suppressing information. You could argue that from a practical standpoint, the "ban" accomplishes nothing. This is an American site though and in America today, one has to tread carefully in certain areas. The result sometimes appears to be at the best, silliness or at the worst, hypocrisy. On the other hand, as long as it forestalls bloodletting, it's a good thing, and perhaps the best we can expect in a democracy straining to tear itself apart. Apologies for the rhetoric, pre-election dementia :-) N.B. It's probably not something that folks in the rest of the world can understand.

Yeah, I understand it, though I dont share it. This is an american website, so while Im a Rosity member I have to follow American rules here though they dont like me

The really inconvinient of these rules is that its initial idea of defending against things as reprehensible as indiscriminate pornography is being converted into a puritanical censorship, where the first idea is that youre under suspicion. The Moderator didnt erase the link that has caused the whole polemic, erased the entire message with the help that may be to the spanish-speaker 3D community. Im suspect of putting messages that violate TOS. Im a delinquent. Im bad. Booooh. I understand that many things have changed since September-11, but ... freedoms and the presumption of innocences principle are remaining very damaged

Pre-election dementia? Ha-ha! One of the disadvantages of the global village is that USA has elections and the whole world has elections. Here in Spain, Europe, I am booooored of seeing in tv news all this information about it ... thanks to heavens, remains few days of all it... Im so saturated that ... some mornings I wake up and I'dont know if I vote for Bush or I vote for Kerry

:))))))

Message edited on: 10/31/2004 06:22

That can't be the only Spanish language Poser Forum. I know of French and German ones, a Japanese group just started up, and thought that there was a Spanish one with info posted here a couple years ago. If there isn't a current one, why don't you start one? Carolly

Cause Im afraid that I hadnt time to moderate it, Carolly, not for no desire it... :(

Well, it would've been nice if they'd simply modified your link and sent you a nice reminder but that would be too much to ask--it's easier to spank you. I agree with you on the censorship thing but this isn't really doesn't seem to me to be either fish or fowl. I'd say that I wish they'd simply come down on one side or the other but let's face it, we know which side that would probably be. Considering that, you have to pay the (relatively small) price of posting a "non-link" link and interested people have to lose the small convenience of being able to click directly. As long as it doesn't go any further, I can live with that. From your perspective though, I agree that the way of dealing with transgressions is a little heavy handed but some would say that's not unusual. Since 'Rosity is supposed to be the NY Times of Poserdom, the Poser site of record so to speak, it should provide the most open forum on the subject. While it's not perfect by any means, I think in general, it does a fairly good job of that.

This is the major reason I don't post here or come here very often; the hypocrasy of those in charge. You can't post a link to another site (yes, I know it's an adult site); yet many of their goods in the store here violate there own TOS! Guess if you bought a banner ad, then "that other site" would be okay to mention here. Or maybe not.

"Since 'Rosity is supposed to be the NY Times of Poserdom, the Poser site of record so to speak, it should provide the most open forum on the subject." Rosity is the biggest site, and it certainly has its fine points, but the most open site, in terms of freedom of discussion, is PoserPros. They would never delete a thread because someone wanted to help others find the Spanish Language Poser forum elsewhere, whether the other site had a ".com" in its name or whether it happened to include links to adult sites. I wish I'd seen the original thread here, I have no idea what this mysterious other site is. Maybe I'll just find it by surfing the usual sites, maybe not. Chill, 'Rosity cops, puh-leeze. :-)

It's no strange new site. Transmapped hair will look like a cloud of dots until you _ _ _ _ _ _ the image. + If strange images are Exotica, then naked Vicky is E_ _ _ _ _ _. + Render at 72 _ _ _s per inch. + Analog modems are attached to... No time, the Germans have broken through, blew poor Smither's head clean off! This is it. If you get through, remember to tell them that we died like Englishmen. God save the Queen!

O Brave New World! ;)

"O Brave New World!" Nope, the same old craven, ignorant, superstitious old world. If anything, the march toward civilization peaked about the time the Berlin wall fell. It's been a race back to the Dark Ages between Christianity and Islam ever since. "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." -Thomas Jefferson

For those who are not aware,; the site in question is Renderotica. If you don't know how to find it you can do a search. As far as I know, the name of the site is not forbidden, but directly linking to it is a violation of TOS here. If I'm wrong I'm sure I'll get spanked, but I'll get over it. The spanish speakers forum there is "Hispanerotica". Personally; I'm getting a bit weary of all this "other site that shall not be named" nonsense on both sides. It does nobody any good and only breeds unnecessary animosity between sites.

Momcat, the ridiculous thing remembers me when in Harry Potters books the magicians cant say the name of Lord Voldemort, but yes "You-Know-Who" (I dont know if thats the exactly translation, I read Harry Potter in spanish): dot com yes, dot com not, link yes, link not, I then erase post, I then dont erase post... all that seems ridiculous to me. I think that Moderator work isnt easy, but in a post that clearly dont want advertise of pornography but to do help to the spanish community, for an application of TOS with justice was enough to erase the link. No intention for me of create animosity between sites, but all we are adults and all the things can be spoken Case closed to me ;)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=193

Excuse me, but everyone who has joined this site has agreed to the Terms of Service. If you don't agree, you don't click the "accept" button and you don't become part of our community. That simple. The Terms of Service describes what behavior is not acceptable: trolling, attacking others, warez, stealing copyrights, posting certain types of images (rape, kiddie-porn, sex, torture), and... linking to age-restricted sites. The link is to the TOS, this might be a good time to refresh yourselves with the clauses and think about why they are included. This website attempts to be family friendly, and there are things children should not see, or get to with a single click. You may be an adult, and resent any censorship, but we must take into account the needs of a far vaster community. hauksdottir Renderosity Moderator

I have no idea what this mysterious other site is. whispers it to you in your ear, taking care not to use the .com part of the address This website attempts to be family friendly I always find this a hilarious statement. A site that sells virtual bondage gear and posable gentials taking the high road? Well, whatever. I do my part to keep within the TOS because I did agree to it, and I tend to generally abide by things I agreed to, even if I think they're stupid and hypocritical. ;-) bonni

Excuse me, but everyone who has joined this site has agreed to the Terms of Service. If you don't agree, you don't click the "accept" button and you don't become part of our community. That simple.*

Fair enough.

The Terms of Service describes what behavior is not acceptable: trolling, attacking others, warez, stealing copyrights, posting certain types of images (rape, kiddie-porn, sex, torture), and... linking to age-restricted sites.

Hmmmm, then Renderosity is breaking it's own TOS; it is an age restricted site. Oh, and a lot of the goods in the marketplace....

The link is to the TOS, this might be a good time to refresh yourselves with the clauses and think about why they are included.

This website attempts to be family friendly, and there are things children should not see, or get to with a single click. You may be an adult, and resent any censorship, but we must take into account the needs of a far vaster community.

Once again, I bring up those items in the Marketplace that violate that "family friendly" clause. There are lots of things there that children should not see. What upsets people isn't the TOS, it is the very uneven application of said TOS. 'Nuff said from me.

As one of our coordinators said... just because you can buy a condom in the drugstore doesn't mean that you can use it there. However, I have no authority or responsibility for the Marketplace. What I would suggest is that you write to ClintH with your concerns... whether it be the goods or the way they are presented. Carolly

just because you can buy a condom in the drugstore doesn't mean that you can use it there But if a child saw the condoms, you can bet that he or she would wonder what they were used for. Fetish items are about as inappropriate for a "family friendly" site as you can think of. They are in there because they make money. Money talks. Plain and simple.

What I would suggest is that you write to ClintH with your concerns Look, I don't have an issue with nudity, with bondage gear, with posable genitals. I only have an issue with pretending this site is 'family friendly'. That's all. And I've already voiced my thoughts on this matter to Clint, as have many others. bonni

Look, I don't have an issue with nudity, with bondage gear, with posable genitals. I have no issue with those things either, although I have known people who took all three to extremes. Oh, wait... you were talking about POSER. My bad. ducks and runs

Carolly, my love, Im not against the TOS. I know that when I joined this site I have accepted the TOS. When in my country I earn my first euro I know that I must pay taxes to the country, though it dont likes to me. Theyre the game rules. Yeah, that simple

You said "I have no authority or responsibility for the Marketplace. What I would suggest is that you write to ClintH with your concerns". Well, this is really ridiculous. The TOS is the law, but ... is there a different TOS to each Rosity zone? Because you the moderators have giving to we the artists the sensation that each one of yours applies the TOS in his zone as desires himself. And the really thing is that, in a strict application of your TOS, when you said about the other site "This website attempts to be family friendly, and there are things children should not see, or get to with a single click", you are describing Rosity. I dont allow my children to enter here, where much worse than a link that send to a site where you must fill a form register to see anything, you can acces here with one only click to images with horror faces, nudity, blood, violence in ALL ITS ZONES: galleries, marketplace, forums, contests. That simple

Im not against the TOS, I said. Im against the indiscriminate and irrational application of the TOS. If, as you said, the trouble wasnt to pronounce the name of a site but yes "linking to age-restricted sites", a Moderator really moderated erases only the link, and he send me the same message saying: "dear member, we have erased a link that violate the TOS, blahblahblah, be careful the next time, kisses, bye". And it remains a post that helps the community, and if somebody wants to go to this site, somebody must search for it himself. And it dont open a bored polemic of 22 posts (now, 23) where seems that Rosity allows its adult content but not the adult content of other sites. That sadly simple

Finally, surprised. Dont be policewoman with me, Ill obey the TOS, I said. But...the TOS says that you cant give opinion about the TOS? How you reform the laws that need to be reformed? It was not discussing them? What is happening in America? ( ... or in Rosity ... )

;)

Message edited on: 11/01/2004 04:31

A funny comment of a site companion, I need put it here, with the tags because it contents very offensive words: "I guess according to that rule you can have a site named buttfuckedboys and as long as you don't add the 'dot com' to the end you're okay....until they devise another new slippery rule." My god, Im crying... :'D

"Excuse me, but everyone who has joined this site has agreed to the Terms of Service" Actually not everybody agreeded to the current TOS when they signed up, it has actually changed a lot over the years. I dont want to sound like a troll here, but lets get rid of this meme that "everyone agreed to the rules when they signed up". It simply is not true. The only recourse anyone has here is to abide by the renderosity staffs "rules of the day" or just keep quiet.

Casette,

You'll notice that I haven't removed your comments or this thread... but am allowing the discussion to continue. I'd far rather be a park ranger directing folks to interesting views and nice campsites, or educating them about the natural processes, than a park policewoman handing out tickets for driving across the meadow or trashing the streambanks. But a steward of a park must do both duties, or the park will be destroyed and closed. A ranger in charge of trail maintenance might not be able to influence what is sold at the concession stand, even if it increases the amount of litter.

As long as people stick to issues and situations, and perhaps think of better ways to solve problems (a constructive discussion), I'm inclined to leave the matter open.
Now, the intial topic had to do with a Spanish language Poser Group. Have you looked for others? If you don't have the time to moderate one (believe me, I understand that!) perhaps one of the other users might? Are there places not on age-restricted sites where such a group could gather? We do have a couple of Spanish-speaking moderators, would you like their help in locating such a site?

Carolly
Renderosity Moderator

Message edited on: 11/01/2004 06:07

From the TOS page... "Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service." Do we receive a notice when the TOS is changed?

The problem is not that double standards exist--they're everywhere. All of us at some point buy into them--more prisons but not in my backyard, no this or that unless it benefits our business, our candidate, our interests etc. Unfortunately, no one is ever willing to come out and admit it. Now perhaps the 90 products listed under "bondage" in the RMP merely reflect contemporary family recreational practices. Likewise the numerous peni and vagani amongst the 128 "genital" referenced products are probably Parents Magazine endorsed as well. Surely, the dire warning included with one product: "WARNING LINKS BELOW CONTAIN IMAGES THAT ARE INTENDED FOR THOSE 18 OR OVER THESE PICTURES CONTAIN VIVID PICTURES OF GENITALS AND SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED BY THOSE WHO MIGHT BE OFFENDED" is a reference to a Sunday school picnic. Of course, those fully qualified links are non-clickable and we all know that the net-savvy kiddies are too dumb to copy and paste. Now I'm glad those products are there. If I had the money, I'd buy some of them. I'm glad that Renderosity hasn't caved in to those who'd like them removed. To pretend that this is anything but self-serving situational ethics though is really ridiculous. Yes, we all read and agreed to the TOS but that doesn't change the fact that it's application is arbitrary to say the least. As I see it, Renderosity has four choices. 1. Continue "business as usual" and accept the fact that members will continue to point out the hypocrisy of your practices. Respond by ignoring them or tossing the TOS back at them as if it applies equally to all. 2. Simply admit the fact that yes, family friendly doesn't apply in certain situations that we will decide for ourselves so live with it and stop complaining. 3. Ditch the bondage harnesses, gags, morphing genitals etc, and their associated revenue and strive to be truly "family friendly." 4. Revise the nudity tag or add a "MA" mature audience tag and mandate its use for these and similar items. Vicky gagged or trussed up like a Thanksgiving turkey is probably no more what most folks want their kids to see than Vicky in a menage a trois with Mike and the Freak. My personal preferences in order are 4, 2, 1, 3. Now the BoSox won the World Series and John Kerry may be elected President but I rate the chances of anything other then number 1 being implemented right along with Hell freezing over.

You know 3 will never happen anyway, don't you? They make too much money. 8-)

milamber42, no. That responsibility is yours. I'd like to point out that it isn't linking to renderotica or posting about it that is against TOS specifically, it's linking to ANY Adult oriented website that is against TOS. It isn't a personal vendetta against Rotica. Nor are you forbidden from talking about them. Renderotica is an adult themed web site (which I love as a euphemism for a site about sex -- since sex is oh, so very adult, of course), and those are not family friendly. As to the comments about the disconnect between the store and the galleries/forums: The TOS is not unevenly enforced. I used to think it was, as well. But then, I started to look at the larger picture of it all, and I have to note, that yeah, it is applied fairly evenly. It does, however, require our active participation in the community to find those exceptions and point them out. THe people here who enforce the TOS are coordinators and moderators, and they do not get paid, do it strictly for fun and a sense of dedication to the community as a whole, and are culled from among us. You will note, please, that the store itself does not have coordinators and moderators. It has one person overseeing it. The store "pays the rent" for the forums and the galleries. The most common pictures in the galleries are pin ups (although they appear in pretty much every category, they are still pin-ups). The "best selling" stuff is sexual in nature, or happens to be very useful for creating pin-ups. Indeed, some of the stuff that is sold here cannot be used in the galleries in images depicting it's intended use. And 2 things will determine how long such items are still sold here. The first thing, and most important one, is how much of it sells. As long as sexual paraphernalia is made and sold through renderosity and contributes a chunk of change to the bottom line of Bondware, it will be there. The people who buy it, for the most part, don't post to the galleries and don't post to the forums (often, they don't even care that such exist). The second thing is public opinion. If you have issue with Renderosity selling those things, then you need to make it known. Consistently and constantly. To make it known is easy. Clearly, calmly, and professionally write a letter to ClintH. Send that letter everyday. Some folks might like to do the reverse -- allow such conversations and imagery in the galleries and the forums. If that is your agenda, however, then -- and not trying to be mean or anything -- you do need to go over to renderotica. That is why the site was born, that is why the site exists. And that's not my opinon, btw. That's the reality of the site. Renderosity won't be changing in the galleries or the forums to a more sex filled one. And, carolly, hon -- this thread's topic wasn't a spanish group. That's the cause of it (and its a heck of a good goal), but review of the initial post indicates that it's really about dissatisfaction with a percieved quirk in the TOS, aided by and undercurrent of hostile suspicion towards renderosity. It's often assumed that since Rotica is a "poser" site, it's something that would be allowed, despite the fact it's against the TOS, simply because, well, I mean, come on -- it's poser stuff, you know? So it's seems unfair. Eh.

Renderosity won't be changing in the galleries or the forums to a more sex filled one. It's pushing that boundary already. A large percentage of the Poser gallery is of nude or scantily-clad women. While I have no problem with that, some of them are in very suggestive poses, with facial expressions that are very um ... "orgasmic." There is no question what they would be involved in if a second person was in the image. This is an art site that claims to be family friendly. Here are some examples of what I think is "family friendly" art. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=800525 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=800516 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=800501 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=800485 I like tasteful erotic art. I create some of it myself every now and then. But to illustrate the point raised in this thread, here is an image that, while I have no problem with it personally, I would feel very uncomfortable if it was viewed by a young child. Currently, it is viewable with the "Allow Nudity" profile preference set to "No." It is a recent post, so the lack of the flag may not have been "caught" yet: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=800463 My point is this ... if Renderosity wants to be a "family friendly" site, it should not have to depend on nudity flags to make it so. It should not depend on "Thumbnail Warnings" to make it so. It should simply NOT ALLOW what is not family friendly. Otherwise, it comes across as hypocracy.

"I used to think it was, as well." Until you drank the KoolAid? Sorry, I'm being facetious. Seriously though, if you don't mind taking the time, would you explain how you came to change your opinion? Reality and literal interpretation may be on your side or not but as is often the case, people's perception matters. Since your perception has changed, your thoughts might be helpful for others. What, if anything, do you feel Renderosity could do to alter the perception (held by many I would guess) that an inconsistency exists, and more to the point perhaps, that it is driven solely by pecuniary motives? Personally, as I've said, I can live with the status quo and accept that's just the way they do business here. From a purely intellectual point though, it irks me to see the issue raised and get a Whitehouse press secretary spin applied applied. So, I'm open to changing my view as long as I don't have to drink any sugary, artificially flavored beverages :-) N.B. My spellchecker listed Whorehouse as a suggestion for Whitehouse. I love it!

OK, I just found the escape clause in the contract--maybe it's been there all along: "Additionally, any post, image or writings can be removed at the discretion of staff if it is deemed unsuitable for this community. Conversely there may be some images which, whilst in apparent violation of the rules, will be permitted to stay in the interests of free speech and religious tolerance. In such cases the artist may be asked to furnish reasons why the image should be permitted to stay and the decision of the Renderosity staff will be final." So crucifixion is not allowed unless it's Jesus. If you religion has violent or sexual imagery, it may be allowed depending on whether they think yours is a legitimate religion. If you worship Baal, you're probably out of luck but who knows? No further explanation needed ynsaen, I understand. If they'd just make one teeny modification: "...in the interests of free speech and religious tolerance" + "or making money." I don't think anyone would have reason to bring this up again. ArtyMotion, that image is completely family friendly--if your family prefers the Bitches Ball in San Francisco to Disney World.

Carolly, of course you can remove my comments on this thread, you are moderator, me not. But none of my comments have violated the TOS, theyre only opinions. And TOS allows talk about what do you think about Rosity and TOS. Im bored. An initial thread to help spanish community and my following displeasure on the excessive actuation of a moderator is converted into an endless discussion about the TOS. I leave this discussion And Carolly, the initial topic had to do with a Spanish language Poser Group, yes. But I didnt want to look for other groups, I didnt want to create or moderate a new one here, I didnt want to search more age-restricted or non-age-restricted spanish sites. Im a member of these forum and I only wanted, as Rosity havent a spanish one, to help members of here. Only that This is my last post in this thread. "Franky says: no more" (From Franky Goes To Hollywood, a very indecent musical group of the past century)

Arguments about "censorship" and sexually explicit material have been raging on the Internet for as long as I've had access. And the USA stiil struggles to cope with differences between States. But there is some shocking Poser art out there. Why, some weirdos even have pictures of people who don't have any fur!

"No further explanation needed ynsaen, I understand. If they'd just make one teeny modification: "...in the interests of free speech and religious tolerance" + "or making money." I don't think anyone would have reason to bring this up again. " I think ya got the gist of it. It's sorta a mixture of a changing of the guard -- most notably as it pertains specifically tot he poser gallery -- and the choices overall that are made across the entire spectrum. Wasn't trying to really put a "whorehouse" spin on it (grin, lol), just to note that since I've always been sorta set off pretty easily by charges of gallery hacking (that is, removing images indiscriminantly) I always keep in mind two simple rules that apply to everything: 1- People are behind these decisions. 2- People are idjits with feelings and a proclivity to be colored by their own personal views about things which are culturally regulated (such as all the stuffs involved here). I really don't think the gallery set up is currently over motiviated by the money bit -- the store, def, but the galleries no. The pay for play system they recently instituted for additional uploads isn't universal -- we can all still upload our slices of wonder at no cost -- but it isn't apparently coloring the choices of the moderators of said galleries (some of the more interesting removals attest to that). They try. They also listen, although I've notcied the moment ya flame them they tend to sorta lock in hard. Which isn't unreasonable -- you and I have both locked in hard when under attack before, lol -- and sometimes when attacking... For the most part, they've been more fair about the galleries the last year than at any time I can recall in Renderosity's history (though not the Poser Forum). And if you want to go into the area of percentage of removal and violations, even on a per capita or comparative basis, I'm willing we could probably make a case for a greater relaxing of the standards, even as the rules have tightened up. As for the particular content of the galleries, I'll go with ya on that one, Deecey. But I'm a well known prude, lol, so I hardly go there too much. and, um, ewwwwwww.... Cassette: I apologize. I misunderstood your post and the intention of your post. Please forgive me.

"Wasn't trying to really put a "whorehouse" spin on it..." Wasn't referring to you, only officialdom. C.J. Craig is the only spokes-creature I trust and only then because I get to know in advance when she's lying.