When I first joined Ren. In the Marketplace you could not find any. props, poses, clothing, etc, That had any bondage, sex poses, fetish type products at all. NONE!!!! So this is not so new after all. I bought some poses from another site once that sold those things. I also did a few pictures for their gallery. And I more or less got laugh out of the place. One person said even if I tried my art was the Disney of erotica. :O). End of story. But the products just slowly crept into marketplace. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but how it was a 5 years or so.

Well, I think Mira from Buzz Lightyear is pretty hot. Take heart. PayPal would probably consider your Disney erotica worthy of being included in a Larry Flynt retrospective. What's erotic is so subjective and so individual that you'll always find people who agree or disagree with your take on it. If you can imagine it, someone out there's turned on by it. It's probably on the internet too, at least the part of the internet not yet sanitized by PayPal. I've heard that some conservative groups have actually protested about Disney's female characters being too racy. I imagine that as a larger cross section people started using Poser, the demand for the products increased and Renderosity simply heard the ring of cash registers and figured why let Renderotice make all the money. Of course now, the want to be respectable. As they say, 'You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.'

These things do go in cycles. Bear in mind that it's not always the "religious right" who complain about erotica. Some of the loudest and most effective complaints come from feminists, and some of the most active Internet censorship is done by China. If I had to bet, I'd pick China as the prime reason for Paypal's strictness, just because it's a huge potential market with clearly defined standards.

...Turtle's right. Most of the bondage and sex-related stuff was either available for download on private sites (back when bandwidth was either unlimited or damned cheap), Thralldom, or Renderotica. Some of it crept into the Free Stuff area, but otherwise, it was rare to find, especially in the marketplace. Sure, stuff like lingerie and undies and etc were always in the MP, but the real heavy stuff was always somewhere else. "I imagine that as a larger cross section people started using Poser, the demand for the products increased and Renderosity simply heard the ring of cash registers and figured why let Renderotice make all the money. Of course now, the want to be respectable." I agree, perfectly. It's hard to turn down a big wad of cash, no? Rendo didn't bother with PayPal at all until about a year-and-a-half ago, so I'm not 100% sure it's just PayPal that's driving it (after all, once the naughty bits leave the store, a lot of money will leave with it.) /P

some of the most active Internet
censorship is done by China.

China executes people for running porn sites.

"Bear in mind that it's not always the "religious right" who complain about erotica."

True, that's why I just said "conservative," though that label, like most is not really accurate. Sounds nicer than blue noses though :-) The urge to dictate other people's morality does cut across many lines, we have feminists against censorship as well.

You may be right regarding China. Ebay famously stopped selling some Nazi items after complaints from France and Germany. The problem is that is a proverbial slippery slope. Every country, and in many cases, subdivisions within countries have different ideas on what's acceptable. If you start forcing everyone to comply with the mores of the entire world then soon everything will be banned. What if the Chinese want to ban "subversive" books? I'm sure the Iranians don't want people picking up 'The Satanic Verses' on eBay either.

The good news is that PayPal wants to be the world's moral guardian, they may find out the truth of the old saying, 'Bankruptcy is to capitalism what hell is to Christianity.' "China executes people for running porn sites." Yes, and despite the executions, excommunications, etc. vice flourishes. That's why prohibition was a dismal failure for everyone except the Mafia. Government has a hard enough time enforcing laws against real crime. Corporations aren't going to have any more luck at enforcing thought crime laws than they have.

Message edited on: 11/19/2004 17:03

True Turtle But 5 years ago we were also getting 36 (3 pages or more) of free stuff items. Today 10 or 12 is average, and less then half are for poser. Side effect of the crack down and time delay. The people who were makeing free stuff went to the market instead of jumping through hoops and wanted to make what would sell instead of what they liked to make. What sold was textures and kinky stuff. If you get my drift.

The older stuff was classified as fantasy-- think of Sharkey's wonderful corsets and boots and horned helmets, and VS's sword maidens, who pushed skimpy pretty durn far. And let's face it, put a corset and a weapon togegther with a woman in very high boots and you actually have kinda defined fetish. What we didn't have was the strong pierced darker goth influence--a style I particularly like to drive away depression. But, you know, you can get too much of even a good thing. Like we did with tattoos for awhile. I love Richabri's and LilFlame's fetish and bondage outfits and furniture because they are not locked into that motif. For a pittance of money, they give or gave you imaginative, very sexy, well built models that look great in virtually vanilla pinups-- I'm sure they're quite hot in not-so vanilla as well.;) But, for a while it was lovely to see beautifully modelled bed-like, throne-like etc props in lovely reds and velvets and gorgeous chrome, instead of low-res basement grunge-- not to down the grunge. It was a broadening experience and I'm sorry to see it go, cause I do think the galleries are gonna follow. I'm a 60 year old woman who has always thought pinups were a classic particularly American art-- the french variety have their own flavor, hard to capture, actually. I love em in all varieties-- partial to Vargas and early Petty girls--and, speaking as a proud 60's generation feminist, I have never ever thought them demeaning to women. I hope there will always be room for pinups in the Renderocity galleries. I expect there will, even if under cautionary terms. Plain nudity doesn't turn me on, it's actually much more artistic than erotic if it's done well, but cute fetish clothes are charming turn-ons. In a wholesome way, is that possible??? Better be! What's life stripped of its sensual side? A crippled life at best. I live in a wheelchair and there are some disabilities I will not surrender to. Emily

Straying further from the whole "family values" end of things, back five years ago Poser was a different beast. For one thing there was a lot less awareness of Intellectual Property (aka Copyright and Trademark) issues, and creators were less likely to care, either. Things got swapped back and forth constantly; borrowed bits of meshes, ideas from Star Trek, photograph textures off unnamed web sources. For another thing, the typical user worked harder to understand the software and make it work. And lastly, the expectations, and the results, were a bit more primitive. Now here we are at the height of the DMCA, with end-users who wail and complain if they aren't provided with easy-pose this and MAT-pose that, and an expectation of tight, detailed, fully-posable meshes. So on the one hand, Poser content creators have to work harder and longer to make the thing, and the tools have become more expensive, and the resources scarcer. On the other hand, the end-users have become less likely to thank and more likely to complain -- or stridently demand the implausible or impossible (such as a highly-detailed reproduction of a trademark Disney character....and you know no-one in their right mind messes with the Mouse.)

Turtle, I was actually introduced to Poser by Thrallord. I'd just ordered Bryce, and it hadn't come in the mail yet and I was cruising sites looking for free downloads for a program I hadn't even gotten yet (and wasn't sure I could figure out how to loose), when I came across Thrallord's erotic site. As things go now, of coure, it was primitive work, but well done. I sent him an email telling him how I enjoyed his site. He somehow misunderstood my email and thought that I was getting Poser in the mail and not Bryce, and he welcomed me warmly to the Poser community. Then I had to explain that I was getting Bryce and checked the price on this Poser thing and it was out of my budget. Well it just happened to be at the time when Poser 4 had just come out and he had just bought the upgrade package. Thrallord actually gave me his Poser3. You read that right. I took a chance and gave him my address and he gave me Poser3 to play with. He didn't have a manual, so I had to teach myself the program, but still, that's how I became a Poser addict. Took years before the wonderful fetish oriented clothing and items started to be readily available. I wanted to be able to do Olivia or Royo style images. Now that's gonna be 'taboo' or nearly 'taboo' again. Well, I'm gonna hope I can find where Batlabs, BVH, LilFlame, and Richabri go because I will still purchase their work wherever they go. I'll still post here and hope that this policy doesn't extend to the galleries. I might still buy character texture sets here, but as for clothing, it looks like the items I would buy are getting yanked. sad Liz Latexluv (once Dreamspinner)

Is it true?? are the items of artists like Bat , Lilflame going to be yanked?? I thought it was only "nuidty" in the promo images. Please, tell me it aint so....

I was not worried or focused on "bondage" kinds of market place things (never bought any but a CUTE set for Koshini because of the boots and outfit..and have not as yet even used it) as the idea that the galleries would suddenly be censored... I admit that for myself, even at my age, I still get a bit embarrassed at some of the nudity, yet when artists like Leah do images, it is ART!! So... to me it feels like pay pal is trying to censor art...and it feels like times of "book burning"! Also it is what is done WITH the market item that makes it "good or bad" (if there is such a thing).... I have Firebirdz Paradise Passions because on reflection I realized that WITH clothes, many of the poses can be very romantic looking, and I don't have to take the HOURS to try and make two figures pose together right... I have also been thinking... I don't know what the rules (read demands) from Pay Pal are, except for what I saw in another thread here from Poser Pros - so I wonder if it is mostly a major change in the image presentations in the market itself. Not being a seller here, (and not dealing with pay pal at my own store) I have no inside information on what is going to happen exactly. I feel for the artists/sellers that are all probably working frantically to make changes for the deadline.... At any rate, I censor my own viewing-whether buying or gallery viewing and if this is still a free country/world (?) we all should have that choice!! If I come in via my e mail notice to a Favorite Artist to an image that embarrasses me, I just click close and move on.. And rosity has it's own setting to not even allow one to view nudity at all... so that seems responsible to me...(re: china..why would a company based in the USA be told what to do by a country like China?!? Yes...the almighty dollar or yen or whatever... GRrrrrrr!) I will not stop shopping here, that would hurt the artists... and I actually post art here FIRST over my own personal site and other galleries... I love the huge community feel and the comment format set up for sharing our art... Sigh.. I wonder if after the storm has blown over if things will (HOPING!) shake out okay....and not be TOO different.. only time will tell..

Emily has an interesting observation. One person's fantasy is another's fetish or porn. "the typical user worked harder to understand the software..." Evolution. Poser had to grow or die, which means a different type of user, one who is less willing to tinker and accept shortcomings. One of the first "word processors" I used required you to type in formatting codes. Now we expect WYSIWYG. Without that influx of people though CL, Daz etc. wouldn't be able to keep improving their products. I don't know what the final PayPalized 'Rosity will look like. It may be only a minor bump as the optimists say or something else entirely. I've seen these upheavals come and go, but frankly, this "family friendly" thing seems like a sea change. In a way, that ties back into Poser's growing, more diverse user base. OTOH, I think it's a mistake to think that most of those new people want a kiddyland.

I wonder if part of the issue itself might not be the way that a great many people feel about these things. I don't happen to believe that paypal is attempting to be a moral guardian. I think Paypal is simply trying to minimize the level of risk and maximize the amount of profit. Large corporate bodies such as it has become are generally incapable of acting with a moral compass -- in fact, it's typically the reverse. There are notable exceptions, yes, but, in general, they will kowtow to the vocal segment of their userbase. That maximizes the income, minimizes the costs. Then again, I may be biased: I have a dislike of paypal that's very deep, and based in the methods of operation and the lack of effective oversight. Paypal reminds me of the manner in which banks operated prior to 1930. But there is another issue at work here, that I think some folks are uncomfortable speaking about, as doing so places them in a position to get creamed as the "amoral majority" goes after them for being prudsih, when, in fact, they are being selective in what they choose to view. And that's that not everyone is comfortable with shopping at Renderotica. For many, it is too hard core. They like these outfits and things for purposes other than explicit sex (as Queri noted above, and, well, those outfits are really handy when used with other things to create nifty outfits not possible otherwise). Then again, I'm crazy, so it could just be my imagination. We'll know in about a month.

I'll add my worthless 2 cents. I'm not into the bondage/erotica type thing, as a matter of fact if I ever met a man who was into that, they would be dumped like a hot potatoe or severely mamed if they tried to tie me up etc. It's not my thing whatsoever. As to nudity in the galleries, it's old & boring to ME. I don't look anymore, it's a total drag. I find nothing stimulating by naked woman(being a women) or naked man, it'a mesh, who cares. Now put a naked Brad Pitt in front of me then whooohooo LOL, he's real.

That said, I would NEVER impose my views or try to restrict anyones elses ability to make/view these types of items. We all have choices to look or not look, to buy or not buy. Same as radio or TV, turn it off or on. I could careless. But people/companies trying to be the moral police, I find disturbing, the last I heard most of the world is free. I think RO, has plenty of protections in place to shield ppl who don't care for that sort of thing in place. Granted some do slip by, as well as at other sites that restrict this sort of thing. Bottom line IMHO, don't tell me what to do/look at etc. ADd another to the list who will continue to shop here. I'm not one to protest any site/vendor, if you have what I want I'll buy it. I barely have enough time in my life to actually render anything let alone, keep up with grudges or tin foil hat theories. So I will continue to shop on :)

Message edited on: 11/19/2004 20:51

It's hard to say ynsaen. I think you're correct about typical corporate morality. I suspect though (conspiracy theory) that part of it is in response "moral guardians," so PP is guilty by association if nothing else. At any rate, in purely economic terms, I think arguably there are more people who either want "mature" products or don't care. Why not give the minority who object the like it or lump it choice. They certainly seem immune to the vocal segment protesting their shoddy business methods. People do sometimes get tarred with the prude prush, though about as often, I see folks labeled as perverts for taking the opposing view. Really, it seems to come up when someone starts complaining about too much stuff they don't like, rather than simply checking the no nudity button and moving on. I understand that some people have different feelings about what offends tham. There was stuff at Thralldom that creeped me out and I don't creep easily. I saw, winced and moved on. Was it David Sarnoff who said in the early days of television, "light and wires in a box?" It's chemicals being excited by an electron beam. It may thrill you or disgust you but it's not gonna reach out and steal your soul before you can hit the back button. But that may be my imagination :-)

Face it, we have to appease EVERYONE these days. So; if it bares more then eyes and nose, if it reveals any body curvature at all, if you can even tell if it's male or female then it's Porn. Further there will be No Music, No Poetry, No Dancing, No Laughing, No Singing...as a matter of fact, No Color either will be tolerated. This is the New World Order, So get used to it people and Cover Up! no longer sitting nekkid in front of my computer...the lady next door threatened to call PayPal on me

The fact is you can't appease everyone, no way no how. If everyone would mind there own business & stop trying to impose their morals/views etc...the world as a whole would be a much happier place. For heavens sake...there are enough controls in place that should please everyone.

Igohigh, you statement reminds me of a scene out of Escape from LA (one of my all time favorite movies). "No smoking, no drinking, no sex, unless you're married, no red meat.........." Snake replies, "Yeah, land of the free." I know it's not a direct quote, been a while since I popped it into the DVD player. But your statement just reminded me of that exchange. Liz

Snake survived New York, he survived Los Angeles....but can he survive "Escape From PayPal"????

Sorry Ockham, I love you to death (reallyreallyipromiseido!!!), but most feminists don't complain about nudity or sexual practices or try to legislate morality.

What feminists do complain about is the degradation of women. Magazines that promote unhealthy lifestyles for the sake of superficial beauty are more of a problem than websites that sell virtual bondage gear, because virtual bondage gear, no matter how many people buy it, will never be mainstream.

A lot of 'feminist' organizations are opposed to pornography (real porn generally involving real people) because they believe that it contributes to the perception of women as "whores." While some organizations take it to the level of a crusade, you should understand that movements are governed by the moderates, regardless of how loud the fanatics raise their voices.

I know this seems off-topic, but it's not. I've seen a lot of people who dismiss feminism out of hand because they associate it with the vocal extremists who are simply trying to get press (and are always more visible than the moderates).

But assuming that the majority of feminists feels this way is the same as assuming that the majority of Christians believe that "AIDS is punishment from god" or that a majority of Pro-Lifers want abortion doctors brutally murdered.

The truth is that most feminists realize how this perception is hurting the real cause we believe in, which is for women to be acknowledged as equal, if in many ways different.

If we don't seem to go to porn shops much, it's because we prefer to buy online or through catalogues, which will become much more difficult if PayPal has it's way.

And make no mistake. PayPal's policies have nothing to do with the religious right, feminists, nazis, armed vegetarians, or anyone else.

PayPal's policies have to do with PayPal's policy makers. If the special interests groups were effective enough to influence policy on corporations, then all payment gateways would be implementing these policies.

And by the way guys, feminists don't really hate you or want to cut off you willies or turn you into girlie men. We just feel that if we are kind enough to make you dinner or clean up, then you should appreciate it rather than expect it. :P

snicker Ah, someone else who knows who Snake Plisskin is! Always wanted to make a Poser figure of him. It would be a challenge, but he could Escape from Paypal, I'm sure of it! He's like a cat with a thousand lives. grinning Liz

Whew..these PayPal rants are getting interesting!
It shocked me to learn that a student got in trouble for viewing 'rosity at school, because I used to view it @ school and can't now because its not appropriate.

I like 'rosity for its forums. But everybody and their grandmother puts shots of nude vicki everywhere...and your profile options don't block it all. I like the fact that 'rosity is making it viewer safe...it means I don't have to worry about people looking over my shoulder all the time.

I know a lot of you are bummed about all the "porn stuff" getting booted, but they do have other places to sell, like Renderotica. At least Renderotica has a buffer screen up to let you know that there is nudity on the site. 'Rosity doesn't and it sucks for people who want to look thru the site in peace.

And as for some of you arguing about nudity and erotica being art [sigh]...don't compare it to the Sistine Chapel or David anymore... 90% of the crap on renderotica is oral or anal sex, and anyone with Poser could pull of something like that in 5 minutes or less....

And while I really don't want to step on anyone's toes, political correctness asks that everyone's opinion is respected and quite frankly I have not seen that at all recently. I think people on this site need to respect each other more, because this site is a global one...let's not forget that. We humans have a higher calling than to tear our brothers and sisters apart, and that includes those of all creeds, colors, religions, and political persuasions. I ask all of you to remember that and be more careful about what you post and who you attack.

90% of the crap on renderotica is oral or anal sex, and anyone with Poser could pull of something like that in 5 minutes or less.... Oral or anal sex in five minutes or less is something I think should be against the law. snicker

"political correctness asks that everyone's opinion is respected" That's the whole trouble here; only those who do the complaining seem to be respected. Those of us who just do our thing and don't run around trying to cram our ideals down others throats get 'baned' and 'censored'. "respect" is supposed to be a two-way street, not just 'I respect you only if you do what I say and speak only when spoken to'.... **and no, I don't do the Renderotica thing nor do I do sexuly excplicit images. But if those who do get censored then how long till what I do do becomes the next target?? Hey, Lets Ban "Cutsie Stuff"!! (and NO, I DON'T do cute! Bah!)

My favorite saying is "We agree to disagree". Sometimes it works quite well in a discussion. Since the beginning, I've viewed this site like I do any tv program or radio program. If I don't like it, I just change the channel. If I post an image that has nudity of any kind in it, I do click the little button for it. I know some artist forget to do that, but I don't. And for my own personal preferences, I have it clicked so that I do see thumbnails with nudity. However, what people are worried about is if this Paypal policy extends to the galleries and no images can be made unless the female breast is 80% covered. That is censorship in art. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the nude human form whether it is female or male. I have always seen the beauty in both forms. (call it raised on too much archaeology, too much ancient Egypt and ancient Grecian statues. grin) However there are people here for various reasons who do not wish to view nudity, that's why there is that little box you click when uploading an image. (No it doesn't take 5 minutes to do an 'oral image', and it usually takes me several hours to do what I do, which are Fetish and fantasty pinups) I agree with Igohigh, there should be a little box to check that's called "Cute Alert". grin Liz

I don't know if Ockham meant to suggest that most feminists are anti-erotica. Certainly though, the ones who are garner attention. One reason their voices are amplified is that their agenda happens to coincide with that of people who, ironically are against what feminism stands for movement and prefer women quiet and submitting to their husbands. I suspect that what irks the Andrea Dworkin feminists so much is the notion that some women would be willingly complicit in their own "degradation." Using your sexuality for economic or other gain is to them, an illegitimate use of power it seems. Men seem more inclined to view other men doing the same thing more with envy, or at worst ridicule, not hostility. I agree with Igohigh on political correctness. I've always found it odd that while moral conservatives hold all the levers of political power and wield a disproportionate influence on American society, they still seem to feel that they "don't get no respect"--God bless you Rodney wherever you are. If Renderosity wants to put up a giant flashing "Here There Be Nekkidness" sign at the front door, that's fine. Anyone who doesn't expect that some people like to take the clothes off their dolls should be warned. It's not disrespect if they play with their Barbies differently than you do. Program note, PBS is showing a documentary on the woman who created Barbie. As for insta-porn, you could spend a lot more than five minutes just adjusting Mike's schvantz so he isn't poking himself in a way that would be illegal in all the red states. The challenge of manipulating Vicky's thighs alone is enough to make you wonder how Starr Jones could ever procreate. Even the crudest Poserotica, (is that a site?) and much of it is pretty crude, is probably a lot more work than sticking some broad in a burkah and making her look angelic.

Oh, now I see... The poster was talking about renders of oral and anal sex in five minutes. Oh well, at least I didn't respond with "If oral and anal sex only takes a Poser user 5 minutes, then remind me not to date any Poser users." ;)

I don't know if Ockham meant to suggest that most feminists are anti-erotica.

I wasn't sure he was trying to imply anything really... I tend to put him on a pedestal because I have so much respect for his work and his intelligence. I was worried about how others might interpret a remark that was vague enough to lend to misinterpretation more than anything else. ;)

I don't claim to know how much time is spent on the erotic images within the community because I don't frequent those sites. I do know, however, that some of the most talented artists in this community do contribute heavily to those sites, and that giving them one less reason to come to this one (by restricting the availability of content) is ultimately our loss.

While I support everyone who posts in the galleries, regardless of their ability, it is the rare artist who takes Poser above and beyond that keeps me surfing them. I know for certain that two of the artists on my favorites list are contributors at Renderotica or Thralldom, and if PayPal makes them feel less welcome here, I will enjoy this place less, even though I have never made or posted an erotic image myself.

Well, you can always do what I did a few years ago in RL. Look around for stuff which has dual-use. Is that a dog-collar or are you just pleased to see me? (Enquiries for further details will be laughed at.)

"I wasn't sure he was trying to imply anything really..." Nah, I just wanted to rag on Andrea Dworkin. Whatever happened to her? Dual-use, a great idea for a contest, use as many erotic items as possible in a non-erotic way. The vibrating vagina purse or hand warmer, the dildo...oh well, I guess they won't be doing that here. I just read the PP thread ar the House That Satan Built, aka Renderotice--some interesting comments. A couple of people said that items had disappeared from their wishlists here or that they were downloading their past purchases to burn to CD in case they are deleted. I guess the party's starting before JFK day.

So, why are cucumbers better than Poser Artists?

? They're easier to "slice?"

Oops ... does that violate the TOZ? ;=[

Saro has a good and valid point. If he doesn't wish to have nudity on his screen for whatever reason it should be his choice. I have posted elsewhere that if artists do post nudity without checking the appropriate button the moderators should pick it up and censure the artist for carelessness. The protection filters should be the reponsability of the site's moderators and they should enforce them. If this were carefully moderated there should be no offence caused. Rotica gives the option to set personal gallery preferences very precisely and they are moderated carefully.

Cucumbers don't steal money from your purse to buy clothes for Vicky? Two old Jewish women are sitting in the lobby of a Catskills resort. Sophie: "All the young people think about these days is sex. Did you hear that couple talking about mutual orgasm? Oy vey. Doris, did you and Sol ever have mutual orgasm?" Doris: No, I think we had State Farm. Thank you good night!

The category system on Rotica is good, but some of the categories could be less sweeping. Look at the stuff that's lumped together with horror, if you have access. If there was a more detailed catwegory system here, that's the sort of thing to avoid. Terms such as "nudity" or "violence" or "horror" describe a different sort of thing to "fantasy" or "sci-fi" or "western". And I'd suggest that any system should stick to the first class of label. I'm not going to be offended by unexpectedly seeing Wyatt Earp instead of Han Solo.

What feminists do complain about is the >> degradation of women. Hear, hear. I don't know how many discussions of "unacceptable art" I've seen degenerate into a "prude!"/"sicko!" name-calling because one side or the other couldn't see/explain that the real issue is not nudity but things much harder to pin down, like hatred, contempt, and degradation. Porn can be funny, sexy, and educational. For the most part, though, it is sad and ugly, and the steam stinks of hatred, not sex. This is one of the many connections between pornographic sex and violence. Two men making love is not pornography. A man forced to give oral sex to his prison guard is not a homosexual encounter, but about power and degradation. Ignoring the difference because we can't account for it is irresponsible. M

They're different and a combination is best I think. nudity/violence/horror are attributes of images whereas fantasy/sci-fi/western are themes or genres of images. Having both allows you see Han rather than Wyatt and still guarantee that his blaster will be holstered.

Two men making love is not pornography. A man forced to give oral sex to his prison guard is not a homosexual encounter, but about power and degradation. Ignoring the difference because we can't account for it is irresponsible.

I couldn't agree more, mick. One of our artists is a very openly gay man. He and his partner have possibly the most stable, healthy relationships I have ever seen. Yet, because of ignorance and intolerance, his expression of that relationship could well put him under fire as a "pornographer" simply because some people feel that it's right to associate two men being intimate with gang-rape and pedophilia.

My concern here is that we are embarking on a slippery slope. I trust in Renderosity's ability to administer their policies without prejudice, but I fear for what it will do to our community.

What happens when Joe_Poster decides that two shirtless men is obscene, and suggests that protective policies require his protection based on his personal intolerance?

I doubt Renderosity would take the complaint seriously, but the conflict that ensued would undo much of communal feeling that we require to thrive.

I am willing to live with the bad, knowing that it will always be fringe, if it affords me the opportunity to progress the good. I'm one of those, "better no rules than bad rules" people, though.

As a side note, I would like to say that over the past several days the discussions on this subject have been very good. Despite the weight of the issue, and the passions on all side, it has been a pleasure watching people handle themselves with integrity, even if I've disagreed with their points of view.

I recently remarked to a friend that not once on this issue have I seen ranting or opportunism or people spouting off about administrative fascism. Likewise, I haven't seen any locked posts or moved threads.

To me that's an indication that this is becoming a very grown up community, and one which I am very proud to be a part of. :)

SoftRiver: Don't misinterpret my comments as an argument for censorship. I've opposed governmental constraints of that sort all my life, and history has shown that sex censorship is almost always a Judas goat for a much more pervasive and a morally indefensible totalitarianism. In my mind, the proper place for censorship is the one place it seldom appears--in the personal choices, purchases, and advocacies of individuals. Stores do not have to sell images that degrade, and choosing not to is NOT censorship. I support Blockbuster's refusal to stock The Bad Lieutenant, which I consider complete garbage, and The Last Temptation of Christ, which I love. And I support Scorcese's and little what's his name's right to make the films, and Harvey Keitel's right to muck up his talent with garbage, just as Willem Dafoe did in his sick Madonna sex fest a few years ago. Go for it. Just don't expect me to pay to see it. People do not have to shop at stores that sell things they disapprove of. In my mind, the real loser in the Bad Lieutenant/Blockbuster moral confrontation was the folks who decided to make a "Blockbuster cut." How's that for integrity? In American, money talks, and integrity goes hungry. No surprise. Paypal has every right to set the requirements they hold their merchants to. For me, the practical issue with Paypal is not their pathetic and vicious Luddite morality but their highhanded confiscation of other people's money. What an irony, to see the moral high ground being held by thieves.... R'osity et al. can sell what they like. Renderotica is out there for those of us who really need a spiked dildo. Disney can continue to make "Disney movies," and the porn theaters are welcome to their electricity. I would keep my kids away from both, for different reasons. I don't buy from merchants who sell things that I consider evil (that old word we all are a bit embarassed by). I don't expect anyone else to agree with my definition of "evil," but I will use the word, and define it, PC or not. And I do expect others to exercise moral responsibility with regard to things that they consider "evil." As a general rule, Americans forget "evil" when it's something they want--spiked dildo, crack cocaine, a sealskin coat, the sex of a child, someone else's property. A bit like four-year-olds. I may urge others not to buy from those merchants either. And my actions may hurt the merchant's sales. None of that is censorship. I don't spend money at McDonald's either, or buy Nestle's products, or shop at Safeway and Wal-Mart, and I urge others not to. And I know friends that boycott Blockbuster for the very reason I mentioned above--their "censorship." That is our right on this side of the "free market" of "capitalism"--a side that predatory business people seem to forget has rights too. M

"This is one of the many connections between pornographic sex and violence." Well, I think the Meese Commission addressed that but Nixon, et al simply refused to accept the research findings. I respect your views though I they seem to be subjective opinion stated as if it were a self-evident fact. There's violence and porn and violent porn but linking them all and inferring causality is as fraught with hazards as analyzing any human behavior. At the same time, it ignores the closer to boring than depraved nature of most mainstream adult fare. Of course, boredom or depravity are matters of taste. In truth, most of these people are more interested in getting listed on the NYSE and catering to the rather vanilla tastes. With the advent of the VCR, they discovered that Mr. & Mrs. middle America like porn, as long as they don't have to venture into back alleys to get it. Whether that's the sound of freedom blossoming or the apocalypse is again a matter of taste. I appreciate your stand on censorship. I wish more people shared it. As for evil, that word seems to be bandies about a lot lately. The problem (not speaking of uou here) is that once you've defined evil then for some, there are no longer any constraints in battling against it. In effect, in combatting evil, you can do no evil. That is a trait which has plagued mankind since we swung down out of the tree (or left the Garden, if you prefer). It is the one thing which has the potential to destroy us. I seem to recall that exactly the two shirtless men scenario actually came up some months ago. Maybe they were naked but there was no sexual contact though there certainly were people seemingly invoking clairvoyance to see some risky business going on. I don't remember whether the image was pulled or not. These days, there'd probably be more of a stink if they were fully clothed and standing at the altar though.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
--Thomas Paine

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
--Groucho Marx

The "connection between pornographic sex and violence" I invoked had nothing to do with Nixon's round in the censorship game. In the first place, "pornographic" was meant to modify both "sex" and "violence," neither of which is inherently wrong. Secondly, the point I was making was that pornographic sex and pornographic violence are both about power, used in a degrading way. Watching a woman fellate a Doberman is not likely to increase our respect for her. I didn't say anything to suggest that "porn causes sex crime" or "porn causes violence," but since those are easy views to attack, I can see why you would choose to put them in my mouth. Much easier than actually responding to what I said. Finally, if you have a wander through the "adult" section of your local newstand, much less the adult bookstores, you will find the same thing I find in the subject lines of unsolicited porn spam I get on a regular basis--an emphasis on force, pain, objectification, and degradation. Silly me, after forty years of a very diversified and mutually enjoyable sex life, I still don't believe that "Real women want it to hurt!!!" What I must have missed! You are welcome to ignore what you please in order to keep your own prejudices intact. M

Sorry, Mickma, it wasn't my intent to misrepresent your meaning or put words in your mouth. I had actually posted something a bit different then I read your other message and felt the need to modify it in light of your amplification. Obviously, I still didn't get it right, at least in your view, Ah, well. When I read "connection between pornographic sex and violence," I did not see it as some knee-jerk leap of logic to mention a commission which had that as one of it's primary objects of study. Nor do I find it incredible that a reasonable person would read the word "connection" and not infer some assertion of causality. Of course as I said, reasonable people disagree without any notion of giving offense. If you were irritated by any presumed suggestion on my part that you supported Nixonian attacks on the First Amendment, what part of "I appreciate your stand on censorship. I wish more people shared it." was unclear? I don't visit the adult section of the newsstand, they closed down the one newsstand here that had on about a year ago. Their crime? They sold gay magazines. I don't visit adult bookstores either. They closed those down here years ago. As for the spam, honestly, all I ever get are get rich quick schemes, "free" ThinkPads and the rare penis enlargement scam. How everyone else gets all the hardcore porn solicitations always baffles me. Be that as it may, sure all the stuff you describe is out there. Obviously, there's a market for it. I think that is more a result of repressed sexuality oozing out of the most extreme cracks in people's psyches than an excess of license, but that's my opinion with which you are more than welcome to disagree. So take it for what it's worth. I really can't say any more to clarify what I mean. And yes, my prejudices are probably about as resistant to disruption as anyone else's. :-)

Guys (and I use that as a term of love for both of you - but not the let's all get nekkid and wander through the flowers type love - I do wear combat boots after all):

I really don't think either of you are disagreeing, just speaking from crossed perspectives.

I "get" both of your intents, which are on the same side of the issue. Let me try to put it another way:

"Porn" is not bad, but how we define porn can be. It's fine to stand up for our personal beliefs, but when we smash them into someone else's head written on the end of a brick, we've crossed a line.

It's very hard for me, being a tolerant person, to accept intolerance in others. My natural reaction in the face of intolerance is the exact same as the reaction of the intolerant person's reaction in the face of their perceived obscenity. I want to stop it unilaterally.

But the difference isn't in our personal reactions, but in our ability to realize that banning any viewpoint for the sake our personal comfort is opening the gates to ban all viewpoints that don't agree with ours. The problems with accepting political correctness are the same as the problems with accepting the Ku Klux Klan.

As an individual, if I find out someone's a homophobe, or a mysogenistic asshole, I avoid them, and I warn others. Legislating against their opinions is crossing a line, as contemptible as I find their views.

The much harder road (and, yes, higher road) is to try to change those views patiently, like drops of water eroding a mountain. To alwaysalways use your views to appeal to the angels of our better nature, and to find the commonalities that we share instead of focusing on the differences we harbor.

This tactic is the one that's been working for generations. It has been working, too, regardless of the current political climate. Women are more respected today than yesterday, as are African-Americans and homosexuals. Sometimes it doesn't seem like it, though, and when confronted with views that seem ugly in the face of those changes there's always frustration.

But we need to accept that there will always be people who, for whatever reason or cause, want to stop others from enjoying their rights. It's just the way it is, and nothing anyone can do will change it. We can only really change ourselves, raise our children in a way we think is right, and hope that the reactionary politics of the little-minded people lose over time.

And mick, is there really a spiked dildo at Rotica? I mean... f**king ouch?! (Any guy who even suggested such a thing wouldn't have to worry about PayPal... he'd have to worry about never getting any, ever again)

Message edited on: 11/20/2004 14:51

I've seen one very intelligent comment in here, buried under all the righteous indignation... Maybe PayPal is just doing it to minimize the crap they'd have to deal with from hosting services for porn sites? Now I realize not everyone has been on the 'net for too awful long, but anyone who has seen the evolution (if one can call it that) of porn online could easily sympathize with any business wanting to avoid the mess that involves financial transactions and online porn. No, Rendo isn't porn (for the most part.) However, hey - they're a private company running their business as they see fit, not some overwhelming force of snake-handlers out to ruin everybody's good time. Geez people, it's just a question of perspective here. I don't like PayPal for other reasons, and this one is very minor by comparison (don't believe me? hunt down and ask Spinner what she had to go through on her last journey though PayPal...) Besides, why not do something besides bitch and moan about it? Why not cut off all personal business w/ PayPal, pressure Tim to stop patronizing them, and get on with it? /P

"Why not cut off all personal business w/ PayPal" Works for me, I used them only once because it was the only way to get NefToonGal. But I never used then since and never will again. Now about that Respect issue. If I can't have faeries, sirens, and nymphs running through the forest then I don't want to see anymore cartoon puppies, Koshinies, or Stacyies running through city streets either. Respect me and I'll respect you!

I worked for a credit card processing center that handled porn sites before Paypal was around. And in that time, I dealt with many problem issues that came up. Chargebacks are very common in the porn industry because of several things. One is that people feel guilty about joining a porn site, so they charge back their cards saying it was fraudelent. Two is that they are so gunho to get to the porn from the teaser that they hit the Process Order button several times. Three is that people often are disappointed after they are "finished" that they want their money back and adult sites don't give refunds. The place I worked for finally had to drop adult sites because they were costing too much. Then Paypal came along and they must have made a deal with the devil, because to take credit cards for merchants that couldn't get a merchant account was unheard of in the industry. If Visa/Mastercard caught you doing that, at the time, you were dropped. Of course, the wide expanse of the internet has caused policies to change and markets to open wider. Paypal takes credit cards for everyone else. This means that they are bound by the chargebacks of everyone else. If they present too many chargebacks beyond what Visa/Mastercard is willing to tolerate, it's entirely possible they could lose their entire business. So, it's not really as puritan as it seems. If you get a chance, under their AUP, look at the entire list of items that they have banned for this. It isn't just adult material. I was surprised that you couldn't use Paypal to buy autographed photographs, even if it's Michael Moore (grin), the opposite of porn (grin). I do think they should take each on a case by case basis and have a chargeback percentage law in place rather than by content because a lot of sites like this one get shoved under the umbrella for what much more erotic sites do. The fines and freezing of accounts are illegal, so I don't know how they can do that, but they do. Paypal is certainly not innocent, but their restrictions are up to them unfortunately. Just as Renderosity has the option to take or not take them.

Thanks for putting that straight, Tagarack. I had heard similar but is good to put it all on the table again. Of course, PayPal's business needs do not entirely excuse their high-handed way of handling accounts they have decided to drop. But this has moved far beyond PayPal. Renderosity is taking this as an opportune moment to try to move towards the "family-friendly" site they have discussed before. I wish them luck, I consider it a noble experiment, and I do not call it "censorship" as they do not, as yet, control the market. (Whereas if Barnes and Noble bans a book they effectively remove it from every other available shelve in the US!) However...I think it is experiment doomed to failure. Art has always had a large part of the sensual and the body-worshipping, from Noble Achilles in marble to the fleshy nudes of Reubans and on to present day. A community of varied artists we may be but Poser is the central one here. And like it or not Poser has been in the lead of translating pretty girls (or buff boys) into 3d renders. I find trouble finding a line. At what point does an image go from naked to nude, from fetching to fetish, from action to violence (not that we have focused on that of late), from pretty to erotic to pornographic to obscene? We can take out the "obvious" obscenity (aka, what is obscene in the eye of the beholder, or rather, the eye of Renderosity staff), but after that is the subtler affect of the goth chicks and the fairies and the vickies in their temples. If one took all flesh from the galleries you'd be left with a couple of spaceships, cars, and nature scenes (and yet, and yet, machinery can be and is rendered in a way that fetishizing and sexualizes it. All those sleek curves and the little sweat-beads of moisture on the smooth chrome...) And yet, to many people in many communities, one garter belt would throw the entire site into suspicion. So how deep do you cut? And does the community as we know it survive?

"Hunt down spinner ?" Hello to you too, Pengy ;-) Spinnie is alive and well, and got a contracting gig in addition to forum ennui/, hence I just lurk on Sundays...mostly. However - My adventures in paypal can probably be seen at Dodger's place - he adopted the 3DA forums. think it's xfx3d or something, I did post a lengthy report on what went on after Paypal fucked away 250 USD for me. They didn't lift a finger until I ordered the bank handling the transaction here (Oslo/Norway) to do a trace - Paypal had to pay for that, see, and THAT made them find the money. I won't use paypal again - I moved all my transactions to a separate bank-account and mostly use a visa electron card for online shopping. If there is interest for it - I can repost the thread at Northern. If paypal is starting to muscle in even heavier than before on ahem... propriety, then some backlash needs to happen. Not because they are paypal, but because I sure as bloody hell won't let someone who facilitates financial transactions decide what I look at or purchase. ~S

Attached Link: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_38/ai_84866949/pg_3

One point that should be made (or not but I'll make it anyway) is that erotica/porn is about fantasy, not unlike a lot of Poser. People are turned on by things they don't necessarily even have a desire to do in real life. The milquetoast who fantasizes about having sex with two women knows that he'd faint dead away if the opportunity arose in reality. The faithful housewife may read romance novels and dream of Fabio, when in reality, she'd never have an affair." And yes, the majority of people who like seeing or thinking about even the most raunchy and bizarre things don't really want to do them in person. I daresay the majority of people who get their adrenaline pumping watching the athletic violence of the NFL don't really really want to get in on the action. It does appear that NBA fans may be an exception though. Finally, even for the minority who do enjoy participating in bondage S&M, etc., most find a consenting partner who shares their taste. I believe that only a minority of the minority actually become predators, thank goodness.

This is just my opinion. There has not been a lot of research done on the effects of specific types of pornography, as opposed to pornography in general. There have been a number of studies which find no direct correlation between pornography and violent behavior or attitudes. Certainly, it is something worthy of continuing study. If you want to wade through a citation heavy article, "Internet pornography: a social psychological perspective on internet sexuality" is an interesting read. If nothing else, it's funny to see the word c--shot so many times in a journal article.

Message edited on: 11/22/2004 01:47

Tagarack hit it dead-on. Most companies aren't out to thump bibles, they're out to avoid instances which cost them too much money in the long run. ( Spinner! Hiya! :) ) Oh, and BTW, in reponse to: "Now about that Respect issue. If I can't have faeries, sirens, and nymphs running through the forest then I don't want to see anymore cartoon puppies, Koshinies, or Stacyies running through city streets either. Respect me and I'll respect you!" It isn't a question of inter-member respect, but a question of site policy. Like I said before - go yell at Tim if you want policies changed. Or open yer own website. Or find a website more amenable to your specific tastes. Such is the law of the Jun^W err, Internet :) /P