Taking a look at CL's website and Poser 6 full retails at $239, €219 and 150. Doing a quick currency conversion at http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi I came up with this:

$239 = €182.841 = 126.174

As you can see, continental europeans lose out by around €36, and us brits lose out by about 24 quid. This was for the download version, so no shipping charges. What gives?

we are always being ripped off, they did it with P5 and they will keep doing it. why do you think bit tor was used and still a lot

Lookin' at the figures i'd say it was the likely mark up for VAT for us here in the UK, and as far as i'm aware this is still added whether goods are physically imported in or downloadable. Though i could be wrong ;)

The VAT is added on top of that figure, it's not included - here's the final amount on my pre order invoice

Shade 7 designer LE English Full Version 1 Windows 2000/XP Digital River 0.00 EUR

Poser 6 English Special Edition Upgrade from Poser 5 - Preorder 1 Windows 2000/XP Digital Pre Order 101.15 EUR

Sub Total: 101.15 EUR
Tax: 17.70 EUR
Total: 118.85 EUR That amounted to about an extra 12 VAT :-(

Message edited on: 02/20/2005 05:40

NOT AGAIN?!?

[note: this is my second draft. I wrote the real one, then took a deep breath and calmed down.]

Over on the Vue forum and several other places I keep hearing "I'm being ripped off"

Do you really think that is appropriate in this forum? This forum is about people sharing experience with this great tool and learning.

I have twice been involved with this topic with Europeans making this complaint and if you insist on pursuing your position, especially with the negativity expressed in the first post, the thread will not last long, because I for one will answer back in no uncertain terms, and you will soon stop whining and begin screaming and I will have to back out, and the moderator will freeze the thread.

First, I suggest you take this to the off-topic forum. Second, be grateful it's not 1:1 and CL charging 239 Euros.

::::: Opera :::::

P.S. Everseer, your instinct is right that the problem is taxes in Europe -- but it is other taxes; they are correct that the VAT is added after that price difference, just like US taxes are. They are complaining because CL did not make the price EXACTLY the exquivelent of today's exchange rate. Perhaps they want their software sold like lobster in a restaurant, changing every day at "today's market price." I'm certain that if CL DID make the price the same as the exchange at this one exact moment, that when the exchange rate comes back down they will not all send CL a nice letter saying "You can adjust the price back now, it's only fair we pay more Euros."

I disagree that this is off topic, you have to buy poser first before you can use it so this post is relevant. Most things from america are dearer here ( in britain) anyway.

Guys this ain't even bad compared to how E-ON are taking the piss out of us with Vue ,Over there its 1:1 so $100 is e100 ,Believe me im not defending Operaguy as we've already had a little war over E-ONs pricing but i must say that this particular one just sounds like CL are actually covering there legal requirement to pay import taxes (This is the law even for downloads) Yes the USA is going to pay less but in this instance not a lot less (And they do have to put up with george bush and his business partners the Bin Ladens) ;)

Opera guy: when people are allowed here to talk about not being able to upgrade at the lowest price, when sheer publicity for an app that no one really knows what it will be is allowed to lure people into pre-ordering, when people can post complaints about Daz' store etc, then I do not see why this kind of thread should not be allowed. What's more: this is not your forum. We all see from time to time a thread that displeases us, but then we simply don't react, and don't respond. Please do the same, or start your own forum somewhere else and allow only clones of yourself as members so that you can be certain they will all agree with you.

Well I pre-ordered and don't feel too bad about the price. Given how the exchange rate fluctuates - and how we are very high at them moment - it has been priced within a reasonable range. We can't expect them to change the prices daily with the exchange rate, nor to loose money by setting the price at the highest pound value. What we have is pretty fair compromise! And if you order today, you'll get that extra 15% discount that CL are offering due to the upgrade proplems.

"I for one will answer back in no uncertain terms, and you will soon stop whining and begin screaming" OG, may I respectfully suggest that you lose the attitude? This is a perfectly legitimate thread. It's discussing Poser. My opinion... 24 ain't bad compared to some of the ludicrous price hikes we pay. Any of you guys bought a USA guitar recently? There's a frightening price difference. My feeling is that CL have a margin of error built in to protect themselves against currency fluctuations. Do I like it? Not particularly but them's the breaks. I won't be buying P6 yet (can't afford it) but I will upgrade asap.

I'm with Philebus on this, I too have pre ordered and am reasonably happy with the price especially as they have now given 15% discount because of the serial number cock up! The VAT here in the UK always gets us doesn't it! :-(

raises eyebrow

Sheesh. There seem to be a lot of people these days who think they own the forum and can tell people what to post.

Well, those of you who think they own this forum are annoying those of us who actually do. ;-)

HAHAHA! Nice one randym77!

OperaGuy - grow up - other grown up people have a right to have their say. This is entirely relevant to the poser forum, as it is a major release of the software. Other software forums also have members that give their opinion of price differentials so I cannot see how this forum is any different. I am in the UK saw the price - felt that the upgrade price was - not too bad - and upgraded. I was however delighted that Digital River and CL paid my 15% VAT for me. Dr Paul Cooper

But does'nt that Socialist VAT in Europe enable its citizens to enjoy all of those wonderful cradle to grave "free" government sponsored benefits??? Like healthcare and nearly unlimited unemployment payments?? you have to look at the big picture :-) Sure us yankees might get some 3D program a little cheaper but if i lose my job i only get 39 weeks of "Dole" before im on my own. :-)

Here we go...

I was gonna respond to that wolf359 but I haven't got the energy, besides I think SamTherapy was expecting that, and I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction ;-)) [lol].

Well, I was gonna say we use it to fund Anti-Bush demos but I decided to say nowt in the interests of peace in the forum. :D

I find these facts a little distorted. I can see how some would think it a raw deal but still not as bad as you might think. You should know, we are paying more than that here in Canada. With the exchange rate it is quite disturbing and there is nothing we can do about it. If not for the help of Katherine at CL, I would not be able to buy. I don't think things will be finished in time for the 15% but you can't have everything. SamTherapy- Yeh, I know what it's like to buy an American Axe. My 40th Anniversary Strat cost almost a $1000.00 compared to the $600.00 and change in the US. Mind it is worth more now. You got to love the fact that the older they get, the more their worth.

*" I was gonna respond to that wolf359 but I haven't got the energy, besides I think SamTherapy
was expecting that, and I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction ;-)) [lol]."

Well, I was gonna say we use it to fund Anti-Bush demos but
I decided to say nowt in the interests of peace in the forum. :D"

IM not seeking "satisfaction" or a tedious,thread locking political argument.
I just think it should be Made clear that CL and other US based Exporters are NOT arbritrarily Gouging,"ripping off" British customers but indeed
they are are complying with international trade laws.
And exchange rates
your own governments are making your copy of poser MORE expensive for you
to import with THIER tax polices.
and presumably using that TAX money to provide social services that your citizens want.

Dont Blame CL for this. EDITED TO ADD PS. besides what good are antibush rallies at this point?? The Dude has already gotten himself in for another term So blaming him certainly isnt really going to help you get a cheaper Copy of Poser6 anyway :-) Message edited on: 02/20/2005 10:59

"IM not seeking "satisfaction" or a tedious,thread locking political argument." Didn't think you were. I laughed when you posted it but I thought someone would get on their high horse about it. My reponse was meant to be taken in the same way I took yours, as a funny, smart ass remark.

If you really feel you're going to be ripped off don't part with your money, it's as simple as that.

I think all this was covered by Curious Labs (Katherine) in a post a few days ago. Kristta

We Europeans are always being ripped of by certain companies like Vue, Adobe and Curious Labs. Just to name a few. As stated before, I've had it with being overcharged constantly and made a list of companies who do so. I'm not buying there again. The good thing is that many companies do not ripp us off at all. I lately noticed that I've suddenly got lot's of cash to spent since I'm not buying at these companies anymore....

It's funny operaguy, I don't see your name as one of the Forum Moderators. "First, I suggest you take this to the off-topic forum." snicker Um,operaguy, there is no off-topic forum. Coldrake

Hey wolf359 I'm with SamTherapy on this one with reference to post 22 above. We were both trying to inject a bit of humour into the thread, but then humour has never been a strong point for our brothers across the sea! {Joke, don't get all uppity)!

Pitchforks & lit torches are in easily reached places you know ;)

Open note to Karen: In reference to my suggestion in this thread that the objectors move their topic to the "off-topic" forum... I am unable to find the forum to which that first argument of this topic in which I was involved was moved, and later frozen. Also, there is no way to search across all Renderosity forums for me to search for it. This is not a complaint, simply an inquiry...has that forum been removed? I looked in "Render Wars" it is not in there. Thank you ::::: Opera :::::

narsil >>I was however delighted that Digital River and CL paid my 15% VAT for me.<<< In post #4 there is an indication that the VAT was paid. Can anyone here confirm if CL is collecting VAT tax from upgraders or not? ::::: Opera :::::

CL (actually, Digital River) is collecting VAT, separately from the listed price.

The law changed recently (in 2003, I think). U.S. companies selling stuff in the EU are required be registered in at least one EU country, so they can collect VAT and turn it over. They can't really enforce it, and small companies probably aren't doing it. But any company that doesn't, and then wants to do business in the EU will face back taxes and fines.

I'm not a lawyer, and export/customs law is so complicated it's a specialty all its own. But this is what it says on the Dept. of Commerce Web site.

There is no off-topic forum, operaguy.

Pardon my confusion, so what is the official explanation for the difference in price? Is it VAT, the Exchange Rate, or something else?

Distance tax :)

Sam Therapy, It least you had the character to quote my (granted) most inflamatory statement, so I thank you for that and here is my response. The heat in my response is due to the blatant corporation bashing. "Ripping off" means fraud, stealing, extortion, and forcing against one's will. I assume "taking the piss out of" is in the same category, but not being British I may be missing some element of mitigation in the translation. An acusation of 'ripping off' delivered with bitterness and anger is very serious. It is not delievered as an inquiry, such as "Hey, what's up, why isn't the price exactly equal to the difference in the exchange rate?" It is a charge of unethical behavoir. And the presumption is: Curious Labs is a pirate, no proof needed, they are a corporation, automatically evil and out to steal from me. So, when you look at it that way, my punch-back that 'i will answer in no uncertain terms and you will be screaming' is quite mild in comparison. In fact, I am pulling my punches. My real punches were in my first draft which I did not post. Now, to the forum: There is a world-wide disprespect for corporations and capitalism. I will not go into the reason here...that would just set off the political fireworks. If I were to start off a thread with the same smear against Greens, or a minority, or a religion, or a race, I would be instantly banned from Renderosity and accused of a hate crime. But I suggest -- and may I remind the forum that suggesting is not ordering around or claiming to own the thread or un-grown-up behavior, it's not even a "should" (I have received, obviously, many "shoulds" in this thread in return for my "suggest") -- I suggest people honor and respect corporations on their face until absolutely proven they are malicious. ::::: Opera :::::

I think it's best that we agree to disagree like gentlemen.

Ok.

Operaguy is the man!!!

I don't understand why anyone would want to be in arush to get P6??? Why not wait a little until the price drops or goes on sale? I would never pay that kind of money just for a download version without the hard disks. If that's just for the dl that's an insane prce to pay for one app, but that'sjust my opinion. I don't blaim the Euros for being pissed off about the price hikes, they do take advatage of it. But, CL isn't the only site that does this to Euros, it always costs more for a Euro than an American and why should that be in it's just fot the download??? If it's a dl it should be the same price for everyone. and, personally, might have to stop coming here until the P6 hype dies down. It's getting annoying to see nothing but P6 threads on here. My 2 cents worth. :) (MHO)

It's starting to look more like a P6 forum and CL website then it is a Poser, general help forum. What's the name of this site again??? laters.

..."an insane prce to pay for one app". 'Pound for pound' P6 is dirt cheap in the 3d universe no matter what yardstick you use...

The price is the same for the download and the hard copy. (Aside from shipping.)

And it IS on sale. I seriously doubt it will ever be cheaper than it is. Special price for pre-ordering, 15% discount from Digital River, plus $50 coupon. I'm paying $69. I don't expect the price to get lower than that for years, if ever.

I'd be buying Poser 6 anyway. I want to see it ASAP, in fact. So why not buy now, when the price is lower than it will ever be again, and they are giving out bonuses for pre-ordering?

If you think you're sick of P6 threads now, just wait until the program actually comes out.

"'Pound for pound' P6 is dirt cheap in the 3d universe no matter what yardstick you use..." And your point is ? Yep, Poser is cheap, but it would be even cheaper for non-US citzens if CL would sell it to them for the same price they sell it to their US based customers. Id like to see an official explanation for the price difference. Is it import-tax, VAT, a handling fee or just "lets make sum extra monney from dem stupid forrigners" ? Apart from the higher shipping costs for a boxed set of Poser, I see no reason for the different prices ?

referring to post 29 and 32 above, and my suggestion that the topic be taken to the "off topic" forum.... In a thread at the end of November in which I participated...Shoshona warned the forum and we took the conversation to "The Den." There, the argument accellerated and at some point after I left the discussion, the thread was frozen. Today, I do not see a forum called "The Den." Either I am not looking in the right place, or the forum has been withdrawn. Again, this is not a complaint just a point of information. ::::: Opera :::::

There is no Den any more. There have been OT forums in the past, but they've all been nuked. If we want to argue politics, we have to take it to a different site. (The Chicken Coop at PoserPros, maybe. If DAZ doesn't screw with it too much.)

Oh, man.....not this again.

Take note: nearly everything costs more in Europe than it does in the US. EVERYTHING. Not just software. I won't attempt to recite all of the reasons again in this thread....it's a waste of time. All that it accomplishes is to make people that don't want to recognize the realities of living under heavily-socialized systems angry. It certainly doesn't convince them.

I just filled up my huge truck's gas tank today. I paid $1.69/gallon for the privilege. I'll leave it up to others to do the conversion to Euros/liter. Frankly, it's not worth the small effort involved to do so.

Sure........the software costs more across the pond. Most things "over there" do.

It's just that one doesn't usually concern themselves with the fact that people in the US pay less for almost everything.

There must be reasons for that. I wonder what they could be..........?

No, the Den no longer exists. And a true airing of this subject requires political debate.

We aren't going to get that here, beyond the first shot or two. The mods will shut down the thread.

So.....I'll leave it with some cryptic advice: Make some fundamental changes, and then prices will change fundamentally.

Man, I hope that we never adopt that stuff over here..........it's a constant battle.

BTW -- nobody is being "ripped off". Not by Curious Labs, anyway.

Message edited on: 02/20/2005 23:34

"Take note: nearly everything costs more in Europe than it does in the US. EVERYTHING. Not just software." I've lived a long time in the US and by now I've been living for over 6yrs in Europe and you statement is totally totally incorrect. The whole point is again, that we're paying more then we should overhere. The base price (before tax) is already more expensive and just that shouldn't be. Even if there weren't any taxes to pay at we already pay more for the same product and that just isn't correct at all. Besides that only a handfull of companies in the US do follow these rip off policy, most of them don't. I've just bought a number of items in the US and was charged the fair exchange rate with on top of that taxes. That's the way it should be. With CL and E-On for example, We're NOT getting the fair exchange rate and on top of that also pay taxes. Which ever way you turn that, we're simply being ripped off!

aeilkema, how often do you think a company should change its prices to accomodate fluctuating currency differences? Remember the company prints documents, sales materials and catalogs, and their distributors do too. These have set prices in them and must be good for months, if not a year. They fill a pipleine of distibution at a certain profit point, based on their wholesale price.

How would you deal with that?

And also, should an American company in California do the VAT tax collecting, tracking, calculation and remitting for the governments of Europe for free? And why? Isn't that a service rendered?

And what is the actual facts about your contention that only a few don't charge exact exchange? Are you saying that most companies in the world accomodate exact, flucutating exchange, with these two software companies being the exception? Is that true with sales to India and Japan and Argentina and Kenya and Iceland? [I do not know the answer to this...I am asking a true question, and I respectfully SUGGEST no one answer unless they are experienced and have FACTS.]

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 02/21/2005 03:01

Re: Us brits being ripped off again? by SoulTaker on 2/20/05 05:10
why do you think bit tor was used and still a lot That's a rather interesting statement, sir.

"How would you deal with that?" It's very easy to deal with, just choose a major currency to price you products in and let the credit cards or paypal or whatever deal with the rest. You be all bring up whatever reasons you like but just look at it this way: BEFORE the euro was in effect, all US companies would charge us Europeans in US dollars, never made a problem of it. WHEN the euro became in effect but wasn't worth much STILL we all had to pay in US dollars, there wasn't a problem at all. NOW that the euro is worth a lot, SUDDENLY a number of companies make us pay in euros but just forgetting that there is an exchange rate. NOW the think up all kinds of issues why they should do so, but THESE HAVE NEVER BEEN ISSUES BEFORE AT ALL. BESIDES that, the tax they charge us is a lot of times for more then the TAX rate is. E-On for example is charging fat over 20% of TAX, they've already taken provision for all of the costs. NOT to mention shipping and handling, that still comes on top of it and again, THOSE rates are very high too, much higher then they need to be. THESE companies get their comensation for all the taxes, rates and efforts, but STILL choose to overcharge us on top of all that. That's what's bothering me so much. That's why I've stopped purchasing at those companies. I've bought numerous items in China, Hong Kong, Japan and the United States and most of them charge me in their own currency. EXCEPT for some US companies who believe they have the right to ripp me off.....

:::::: calmly -- in spite of all written above -- ignoring continual inflamatory use of "ripping off" ::::: calm point of information requested: 1) if you live in European Union, do you have a CHOICE to pay in Euros or Dollars, or are the two companies MAKING you pay in Euros/Pounds with no option to pay in Dollars? 2) if no option, how certain are you that CL and E-On themselves have an option? Before you got upset, did you check to see if perhaps they have been driven into that corner by some regulation or law, or some economic reason that would penalize them for charging EU people in dollars, or put them in some 'gray area' with the authorities? 3) if CL and E-on will not respond to such an inquiry, how certain are you that that is simply greed and manipulation as opposed to a delicate legal situation that their corporation is ill-advised to discuss on a forum such as Renderosity? For your information, corporations are put into that position all the time by zealous and conflicting regulatory bodies. Sincerely, ::::: Opera :::::