Hi all... Post here any suggestions you might have for the Hot 20. we all know it needs to be changed, so let's try to come up with some good ideas as to how it could be improved, or if you feel it should be taken down completely. Please keep it clean...Let's work together, and not against each other :D Thanks, Nick

Well, about six months ago, when I took up about a quarter to a third of hot 20 positions, I got fed-up with the whole thing. That's when I asked (privately) to restrict the number of hot 20 entry's in one week to 1 work (the best one at that time) for one artist. That way we would see at least 20 different artists and (hopefuly) styles in the hot 20. That would give us a more representative view of what the fractal community has to offer. But as you stated many times before, for the whole thing to work, people have to vote. No matter what system.

I think that the moderators or a selected "board" should evaluate images and select a "showcase" artist from each gallery once a week. No matter how you format it, if members of the communities have a "vote" they will be accused of voting for their "friends", and that same old Hot 20 mess will come up.

Dirk has some good ideas there, IMO. It would help open things up to more folks. I've found positive reinforcement to be a MUCH better motivational and creativity enhancing tool than a "big stick" many times when I've had people working for me at my job and it's always such a thrill for someone to have their work make the list. That stuff said, as I read all the stuff written in both forums, there were a couple crackpot notions. Like someone thought that someone a had pulled a "Matt" and voted for themselves a bunch of times in the T-gen gallery. We all learned when Matt "gamed the system" here last year just to show it could be done that the Mods can keep a pretty sharp eye out for "clone votes" when things seem out of whack. One idea I read in the T-gen forum maybe had some merit? The person suggested that votes only be allowed by the artists in the particular gallery where the image is posted. That's maybe something that might help alleviate what set them all off anyhow? I'm probably one of the offending "invaders" and I've occasionally - not always -voted over there. I certainly don't know T-gen from shine-ola and usually got off on the colors or creative arrangement of the mountains/water/clouds without noticing technical stuff that experienced users might. Maybe voting should be only allowed by folks who have posted to a gallery a certain number of times. Not too high a number - maybe 5-10? If I remember right, somewhere there is a page that I think is accessable from one's homepage(?) where you can - or not - select a "genre". As long as it's possible for an artist to select more than one genre - say maybe they do fractals and Bryce, for instance. Those would be things the software could look at to decide if a vote was "allowed". The compaining folks arguments weren't totally without merit - mostly their tone and the effect on the person they were mad at. We've seen here, as well, when sometimes an image gets to the top of the H20 and 90% or more of the commentors are people you've never heard of and the posting person's fave's lists contain zero fractal artists or fractal images. It's something that's caught my eye b4 but certainly wasn't worth losing sleep over but it does sound like one of the things the T-gen folks were upset over. Another thing that might make folks feel better might be to discourage/disallow the "V" thing in comments? I'm sure many folks just say it to convey their pleasure in viewing the image but there are also those who say it under almost EVERY image. Even if it isn't their intent, to someone hypersensitive to this stuff maybe it can smack of "vote swapping" or "trolling"? And then you have the ones that say "V" but didn't really vote - lol! I'm sure this stuff is a source of grief to those who were upset, too. Voting is supposed to be private and uncoerced and is the reason why there are curtains and/or barriers on the voting machines when citizens vote in democratic countries. I don't know. As I read back over what I've written I reckon I can see cons to my ideas, too. The "belonging" to a gallery thing, especially, might feel like disenfranchisement to newbies I suppose. Or just scrap the H20? Of course then they'd probably start to complain about the ranking system - lol. Just trying to offer help/suggestions/ideas - Hopefully SOME good will come of this mess but it all boils down to basic civility and professionalism and following Keith's advice not to take this place so seriously that you can't shut it off when you power down your pc. Hopefully we can keep the friendly, supportive vibe around here and move past this stuff and maybe even be better for it. Damien Jones recently set me straight on how much more helpful a personal website actually is than these large sites where artists can't easily be spotted amid the thousands of other talented artists. Though, a presence here certainly doesn't hurt by any means and has helped me a LOT and I'm thankful that I discovered this site. c-ya! Rick

Randee's idea isn't so bad either, IMO. Except that sometimes a Mod is also a poster to the gallery they oversee and they could be accused of favoritism. The T-gen mod was actually one of those that left an "ugly" comment under the image that everyone was upset over. Maybe just have a lottery like thing where the "showcase artist" is randomly picked and a particular artist could only be selected once in a certain amount of time? You're handling this well btw, Nick - a real pro. Rick

I'm not so keen on a panel picking the images, anyway that happens already once a week with the showcase image. Maybe we also could (with 20 artists for 20 images) do away with the ranking in the hot 20, no Top 20 anymore, just show the 20 images without numbers and randomly. That should get another part of the "HOT" competition away, and lead us to a representative showcase of 20 good and-or popular images each week. Think Rick's idea of voting when posting in a certain gallery is also a good way to settle fragile nerves. And I see his point around that whole 'V' thing. I always used it for exactly the reason he stated, nl, to encourage people who make progress in their work. To show that I found an image special. But I'll stop doing that from today, cause I see that it can hurt as much as help.

good luck no matter what you decide someone is NOT going to be happy with it still say do away with it altogether. Course I don't exactly post here any longer got to tired of being harrassed by IM messages...yep always the same one..:) Good Luck guys :)

get an optional button to enable/disable the voting button, i should say ... so ppl get to choose themselves whether their pieces of work has to be in a ranking or not me, i am way passed all that, i have other recognitions for my works of art, which quite a few admire on their walls, and that has a higher value than a temporary ranking hope you have luck with it smile Harmen

I suggested something along the lines of Rykk's post above in the community forum some time ago when this subject last blew up. The response was, quite rightly, that it doesn't take an expert in a given software program to spot good lighting or compostion or any other aesthetic (sp?) aspect of an image and want to vote. Taking the idea a bit further though, I'd like to suggest this solution instead. If a member - a: is posting regularly in a gallery b: is active in that gallery's respective forum - this surely points to someone active in that community. How hard would it be, to weight someones vote depending on how active they are in the relevant community? To give an example of how this might work: I know nothing about Bryce so lets say I see a thumbnail in 'All-All' that catches my attention. I click the link, I like the picture, I look at this Bryce artist's gallery and I add him to my favourites list. Next time he posts an image I get an email informing me and I vote for this image. Now: -1 point because the artist is in my favourites list. -1 point because I haven't visited the Bryce gallery recently -1 point each because I don't contribute to gallery or forum. Now suppose a Bryce regular has the same artist in his favourites list: -1 point because the artist is in his favourites list. and that's it; his vote is worth 3 times more than mine because he is a contributing member of the Bryce community. If a regular in a given community feels that an image needs work on certain areas they are unlikely to vote for it; the above method should ensure that it would then have to be an outstanding image in other more abstract/aesthetic areas to reach the Hot20. These stats must already be available to the admin here and I doubt this would take that much scripting. What do you think? Mike

This is great guys! Keep the ideas comin' :D I know it's been re-hashed many times, but a little more wouldn't hurt :D I am ever hopeful for a good solution. Nick

Hi Nick,

The hot 20 is a great idea. It could be the perfect motivation for me to really give my best.
The hot 20 should be imo a list that shows the newest popular trends of the fractal art. Right now you only can see who has the most friends in RR.

Here some suggestions to improve that:

I also find it a good idea to ONLY let the people vote who scroll through the fractal gallery: it cannot be that someone decides who makes the best picture if he just sees the stuff of his favourite artist!

It should be possible to have 2 or 3 pictures of one artist in the hot 20, because people want stars. But not more then 3 pictures.

Right now it's a bit too complicate to vote. You need two extra clicks to do it. There could be another point in the ranking scroll list above excellent: excellent+vote.
So artists who don't wonna be ranked can't be voted too.

Take care
ulli

Message edited on: 03/02/2005 02:57

Voting should stay different from ranking.

Hi all, I don't really have any ideas how to solve this. But I would like to see the Hot20 stay. Of course there are several images that get there by friends' votes, but the truly remarkable images can be seen there as well. And that's the reason I always look at what's in it so I haven't missed anything exceptional. And by the way: for a "young" (not in years but in how long you're active) artist it's a thrill to see your image in the list. It really boosts the spirits. The suggestion of Harmen and Yvonne to add another button won't do the trick. People get disappointed if they never get the chance to enter the list (because of so much friends' votes) and don't allow to vote to prevent disappointment. A limit to how many images of one artist are in the list at the same time would improve matters. Still, I'm glad I don't have to solve this. Good luck! Yvonne

Hi everybody! :) What I think is that no matter what, what leads to an image to hit the Hot 20 should be a combination of factors and not there mere clicking of a button. What are the best factors to consider/ mix/ weight is the question. I've had some ideas about this in the past, although I'm not sure they are the best and didn't analyze them thoroughly enough to say "this is it". For example, a combination of most viewed and most commented, with extra points if it's added to someone's favourites images. I like the idea of ulli of the votes being allowed only if they come from people actually browing the gallery. Cheers! Barbara

I think we should do away with it instantaneously... Eveline

Opinion from a newbie.

I'm new to Renderosity's fractal community though I've been posting Bryce images to 3Dcommune for around eighteen months now so I'm not totally new to art communities.

I really do like the hot20 as a way to spot some superb images that I might have missed in the main gallery. It's good that you can't vote for an image by going from the hot 20 page. That makes a lot of sense.

Yes, even as a newcomer I felt that I could sense some people might have got in through buddy voting but it doesn't ruffle my feathers terribly. I'm familiar now with how comments or votes very much depend upon so many various factors... personally, I'm glad I'm not a moderator as sometimes the fawnings over moderators can make me cringe. I'd rather know that if someone likes my images it's because of the image and not because of some perceived community status.

I wouldn't deny that it would make my day to ever reach the Hot 20 but it's not my defining goal. I just love playing and creating and that is the drive. If other people like what I make it's the icing on the cake but not the cake itself.

I like constructive feedback. Sometimes it's the only way to learn how to do things better, though I do need a thick skin to deal with the difference between someone who tells me technical information (very useful) and someone who interferes by telling me how I should have made the image when they may have not got the gist of what I was trying to portray (more relevant to my Bryce images than my fractals). Sorry, I know that's not a hot20 thing but the commenting and ratings always seem to go hand in hand in any discussion I see on this kind of thing.

Most of all it seems to come down to individual artists being able to see that communities like this one ARE communities. Even though I try to remain fair and look at as many images and comment without favouritism it's inevitable that my eye may be caught by a name who has left me a nice comment and open an image I might not have chosen from the thumbnail alone. And if I don't comment it's often that I am just right out of words that day!

I wasn't sure when I first started about voting because my eye for fractal art is very untrained. Someone could churn out a UF image that was a stock forumla and I wouldn't know because I have no understanding of that program. So making the voting go hand in hand with experience does make a lot of sense. It will exclude people like me voting in the Bryce gallery here because all my images are at the 'other place' ;) but what the heck, nothing can answer every situation.

Good luck with finding a peaceable solution and thanks for caring enough to try and find out what people want and need :)

Kathy

Message edited on: 03/02/2005 07:42

My note left in the Terragen Forum: Well I'm back and see that things have simmered down. Check out (how does the Hot20 work) at the beginning of the H20 list. It states: The "Hot 20" is for entertainment purposes only. It is not a competition, a challenge or a contest. Maybe another line should be added regarding the "tone" of the comments. Then nothing has to be changed, just added. And lets get rid of the ~V~ which I used but no more ~ simple solution. They are making progress in the Fractal Forum. Maybe you should check out "the suggestions." One last note: I think MJK'S photo should make the H20!! Kidding just kidding!! Have a fabulous day! Diane

I have read each comment here. Here are just a few thoughts.

1.I have often thought that the title "Hot20" needs to be changed to something else. The title is highly charged. But I can't think of a good title.

1. Get rid of the "Hot20" completely. (I personally favor this option strongly).
2. Give us the option to refuse votes if the "Hot20" remains.
3. I have no fractal artists in 'my favorite artists' list. I come to the fractal gallery each day and view ALL the new posts. That way I can never be accused of viewing and or voting for just my favorite artists.
4. There are so many fractal generators available and it might be nice to see on a monthly basis some representative images made in the different software programs. Such as Apo, FE, UF, TZ, XD, etc.
5. Do away with 'Most Viewed', 'Most Commented', and 'Best Rankings'. (I also favor this strongly).
6. Have our own 'Fractal Artist of the Month' where we can all vote. But no single artist can be picked for several months in succession.
7. If the fractal "Hot20" is retained, only people who post to the fractal gallery are allowed to vote regardless of how often or infrequently they post here.
   Marion

Message edited on: 03/02/2005 11:47

Sounds good to me Marion!! Regards Diane

I don't have to be a painter to appreciate and love sculpture...I don't have to be a builder to appreciate beautiful architecture, and I don't have to be a jewelry designer to appreciate the piece. As long as the voting procedure is in the hands of the "masses" there will always be unjust accusations.

Some random thoughts... I don't want the Hot20 to simply go away because I like the idea of having a gallery showcase (after all the site isn't just about the artists, it's about viewers too). It's a good way to explore a gallery one doesn't visit often, provided it isn't the same people being all over it all the time. That's why I'm in favor of having at most 2 images from an artist at any given time. I also liked the idea of the images appearing in random order without the number of votes. That makes it less of a contest. I'm not sure about restricting the people who can vote in a gallery, because I don't know how much of a problem votes from non-posters cause and it doesn't address people voting for their friends because their friends voted for them. I'd guess the latter happens more often than the former.

As a user of terragen I see some good suggestions here. The biggest problem we have in the hot 20 in the terragen community is, it is being abused by the fractal community.

There is 1 or 2 fractal artist that dabble in terragen (nothing wrong with that) however the problem is as soon as they post a terragen image no matter how bad that image is, the comments are always much the same. Hugs & Kisses VOTE Soon that person is number 1 or 2 in the hot 20.

This only diminishes the purpose of the hot 20. The hot 20 is there to reward an artist for exceeding the boundries of any particular program, not how many friends they have.

I encourage people to comment on as many images in as many communities as they see fit. But because they are friends shouldn't mean it's an automatic vote and this is what angers the terragen community, many outstanding works in the terragen gallery never get votes from the fractual crowd.

I often see comments that art is subjective, this is true, however one has to know these programs inside out to truly appreciate what an artist has accomplished.

My aim here is not to try and stir the pot, but to try and save the hot 20.

Message edited on: 03/02/2005 18:14

Now hold on a minute, mac8, that happens everywhere, not just the terragen gallery. Wait until a popular Poser artist shows up there. Go look at the most commented fractal gallery. For a while there was a "my first fractal image" right at the top with over 100 comments, but that has been deleted. There's still another one there. It happens when popular people cross over. Deal with it. I think that the hot 20 is fine as is. Plain and simple, it's a popularity vote. Most of the time people are popular for good reasons. Those reasons usually include that they make good art, but people are also popular because they are good people. What's wrong with that? The problem with the hot 20 isn't the system, it's with the human traits of pride, jealousy and envy. I admit, I have those traits. Not a single image from my recent "It" series made it into the hot 20. It's either because they're not that good, I'm not that popular or most people understand that I don't care if I make it there - well, I sort of don't care, maybe, in a way, well, maybe I care just a little... I'll say it again: Lighten up. This place is more about community, friends and fun than it is about art. Serious artists do not need or use this place. They have their own sites, doing their own thing in their own way. Believe me, I know that if you take this place too seriously you will just get frustrated. Take it for what it is: it's a party. Honest, why would a serious artist want to participate here with all of the competition and distraction? Have you ever noticed that the big guns provide very few links to other people's galleries from their sites. Why provide a link to a competitor? Anyway, that was a tanget, sorry. My first option is to leave it as it. Second would be to limit the number of images that any person can have in the hot 20 at the same time, maybe to 2 (what if my whole "It" series made it in there? I would want at least 2 to make it). But my most prefered option is to lighten up, relax and take this place for what it is. Keith

according to you the hot 20 is a popularity vote .. that in it self is where the problem lays. Can you imagine a Terragen artist (popular of course) posting substandard fractals and topping the hot 20 ... give me a BREAK

THANK YOU, Keith. You are absolutely right. If there happened to be a monetary reward, or someone was actually benefitting from the Hot 20 by getting commissions, it would be different. I think we all need to lighten up. I know I was hot in the last thread, and I had to go and apologize for being what I accused everyone else of...rude and mean. It just ain't worth it. It's a game, for cryin' out loud! This is supposed to be fun! Maybe we just need to redefine the Hot 20. We could call it the Most Popular 20 and go by viewings alone.

hmm... i don't really care about the hot-20, i never get in it anyways, i don't have time to comment as much as the ones who do just 1 piece of artwork every day, so i ain't gonna be that kind of a popular commenter ergo not a popular artist, cause thats what's this is all about, really... i am sorry, i dont have time for that, i am a fulltime artist _ what ya can do is change the concept of that hotlist lets just say we make a nomination list each month of artist who showed their awesome masterworks, and a panel of judges get to chose who is gonna have the artwork of the month title, the first price is a golden certification, then who gets 2nd and 3rd, another color and can have that displayed on their personal homepage at this gallery. cause these galleries isn't about the person who makes it, its about their extra-ordinary skills to have their creative mind expressed in their piece of artwork. well gotta get to work, i am a taxi-driver today for we had so much snow the last few days, gotta get them kids to school somehow LOL good day Harmen

This thread is for suggestions to improve the Hot 20, and so far there have been some great suggestions. As I stated before..."Please keep it clean" I think it is very obvious lately that the Hot 20 does need to be improved if it is to remain. If you think it's fine the way it is, that's okay, say it here, but let's not start pointing fingers please. Let's work together. Thanks, Nick

Why can't we vote on each image and give them points for say "form", "Colour", "artistry" etc., similar to the way they do with sports. For example with the Olympics, they rate them according to a certain criteria and the one that garners the most points after tallying each category, is the one that wins. Maybe we can rate an image by "Clarity" "Colour" "Imagination" etc and have a scaled voting or say vote for an image out of a sliding scale from 1-10 "Clarity points" or 1-5 "Use of Colour" points or somesuch. Does anyone think this type of thing would work?.. Or do I get 10 "Insanity points" for this suggestion? lol. :o)

Why not just limit the votes people can make to 1 per day per gallery... Then they would actually have to choose their favourite 'Hot' image instead of carpet bombing the gallery with votes... Matt.

Why does this discussion mades me so very sad?Bye to all of you,wish you all good luck and a lot of wisdom.Hugs Yvonne

Don't be sad! It's just normal human behaviour... I am here for more than one year and Hot20 has lost all its meaning to me...

I never really paid much attention to the Hot20 after the first couple of weeks posting here. I would have, and still would like an image of mine to make it there by it's merits alone, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I do this form of art because "I" like it, and I liked it so much I just wanted to share it with others. If anybody else likes it too, well that's cool, and hopefully they will tell my why..or why they don't like it. I don't have the whole day, or night for that matter to spend on this site wondering if an image of mine will make the Hot20. It would be a nice feature for this community, but it definately needs to be tweaked. The biggest thing I think that would help is to limit "1" image for a particular artist into it at one time, and to limit how long they are in there by 5 days. I would hope that that would be enough to rotate ALL artists who post here into it at sometime or another. In my opinion, everyone has done a good enough work of art to go into the Hot20, but not every image they've ever done. Even Van Gough had a bad day..LOL I've enjoyed posting to, and veiwing in this gallery. I will continue to do so with or without a Hot20. I'll leave the politics to someone else. Hope it gets worked out and this will become a non subject in the future. Doug

After reading all these usefull suggestions, I still think that the main thing is getting rid of the competitive element, with limiting 1 image per day in the Showcase20. That way we could, like Rick once said, get into competition with our only worthy competetor, ... our software. For those of us who are a lot in the hot20, you can try to achieve 7 different images a week. That's going into competition with yourself. That's healthy, and that's how you make progress in your work. But it will leave at least 10 places open for other worthy artists here. Let's not be selfish, let's share. And if you want competition, enter the monthly theme challenge. And yes, it IS anonymus there.

The Hot 20 doesn't really mean all that much to me. I rarely visit there so, it wouldn't really bother me if we did away with it all together. I also think that limiting people to 1 - 5 votes a day might not be a bad idea. With only a few votes to work with, people might be a little more selective in what they vote for. To be honest, this whole topic is getting redundant. I do have to say that I admire Nick's patience though. He's a good and fair moderator. Just my 2 cents.

If we want a showcase of some kind, maybe the programmers can write a program that will just pick 20 random images each time someone clicks on the 'Showcase' heading and show them in no particular order, sort of the way our individual gallery front page can pick 3 random images. This would give a taste of the gallery to anyone who doesn't have much time, or is a newcomer. Each time they click, they will get another set of random images (from that day? week? details would have to be worked out, lol).

Message edited on: 03/03/2005 22:10

Now that idea I like tresamie! I think that would be a useful addition regardless of what happens with the Hot20.

That is not such a bad idea, but it already exists. If I go to the gallery, I get the latest images, if I click on next page, I get 18 others... But there is something in your way of thinking, maybe we could use this for the images who have been voted on ?

tsk tsk tsk ... it saddens me that ppl cant get along like grownups, and see in every suggestion another way to let ppl know how important they are for this gallery ... guess who makes this gallery? not you, nor you, and neither you but ... US, and no one is here much more important than the other, we all are people who has some kind of ability to present our work of art, no one is better than the other, we all are equal human beings, whether race, language or the amount of piercings ya wear, religion, age or sex and it seems to me that some think they can boss around cause they feel more important than anyone else, and that he/she is the one who makes this gallery your absolutely wrong in this we all have a different approach to our works, use different programs, computers, and when ya want to share everything with each other, and have a friendly environment which is very attractive to the newcomers, ya have to cooperate and get along, learn from each others mistakes, and have fun with it, accept the handicaps of others, for some don't speak the language or are ununderstandable in their actions and intentions... so... we need to make us a showcase where everyones best shot is presented in, each month a different one, which we need to nominate ourselves, and a panel of judges will take a look which one of the pieces of artwork of each artist will become in the showcase of the fractal community just a combination of suggestions that will end the hot-20 and its discussion, cause it's a farce that whole voting system!!! have a nice day Harmen

YES!

I agree with Dirk about getting rid of the sense of competition but I think the "competition" is in our minds and hearts more than in the workings of the H20. The problem is just as Keith said - our baser human emotions. We need to all quit trying to out-do each other and REALLY be supportive and also VERY conscientious about things like voting. And, also - yes, Dirk, you are one of those who I know NEVER used the "V" thing for anything else but encouragement. I've known you online for a while and find you to be a remarkably fine and kind person and your integrity, as many here can attest to, is unmatched my friend. Anyhow - While scrapping the H20 or making it into something that EVERYONE gets into regardless of skill level sounds nice, warm and fuzzy - one major thing is forgotten....the purpose for Bondware starting Rendo in the first place: Some of the artists here are "serious" in that they'd like to pursue digital art as a vocation or side business. Maybe not so much us fractallists but I think many of the T-gen and Bryce and illustration folks are. Probably why they got so fired up? When art brokers and agents browse the myriad art sites in the world they don't have weeks to wend their way thru thousands, even millions, of images. I imagine that they like to go to more convenient pages like the H20's and the Best/Most type pages to look for talent. Hopefully, those pages will be a good representation of the best the site has to offer in each genre and some artists will be "discovered" and offered opportunities. And maybe these people will return again and again. If EVERYONE gets into those H20 type pages regardless of skill/experience, they will lose all meaning and relevence and Renderosity will never be a springboard for ANYONE's career and the help for aspiring artists that it is/was intended to be. To build on Harmen's point - Bondware is not Renderosity - WE are Renderosity and it is OUR collective reputation in the "art world" that is at stake, IMO. Too much bickering and lack of professionalism will give this whole place and ALL of the artists associated with it a bad name and anyone mentioning to a prospective buyer/agent that they display their work here will be met with the same scoffing rise of eyebrows that the mere mention of fractals causes in the "mainstream", "serious" art world. Trust me - happened to me just last week when, for the heck of it, I inquired about how to go about getting prints of my stuff included in the offerings at a large art print chain at the local mega-mall. I mentioned "fractal" and the guy perked up and looked at me funny and said "come back with a business card" - sheesh! So think hard and long about how we want this to be. - Who would strive to improve if anyone and everyone was in the H20? Or care? Why would anyone ever go to look at this type of "showcase"? What would be special at all about having your art in it? Better just to scrap it if we can't come up with a better system. One other thing. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that Renderosity as a business - and it IS a business - looks to be in deteriorating shape and getting worse. When I started here, Rendo was an actual printed magazine you could get at Barnes and Noble (I think) and subscribe to. Not enough of US subscribed (myself included), so they didn't have the $$ to continue paying for printing so they went to an "on-line only" format - the R.I.M. - that you subscribed to and could browse online or download and print out. Not enough of us subscribed to THAT so I hear that is also gonna stop, too. I pay the $5 per month / 3 per day thing just to help out. As everyone knows, until this month I only posted 3-4 per month, max, and the 6 I did last month were the most since my first days here. But I do have an extra gallery for Joie and my flames that occasionally gets a post and the DrahcirXips oldies gallery with 4 in it, so it seems fair that I pay for SOMETHING. Anyhow, I hope I'm all wrong because I'd really be bummed if this site went away and I lost contact with so many of the wonderful folks here. And no, I'm not connected with Bondware/Rendo in any way and fractals are only a hobby to me - though it would be neat if someone actually wanted a print of one of my pix! I did write a tutorial for them once is all - got 1 free download of the online issue for it and don't feel cheated at all. We all need to stick together as a team and help further this venture that has given so many of us such happiness, good friends....and maybe some grief, too. Rick

This is a wonderful idea in theory, but who will be the judges? This is always a big problem, no one can agree who will be fair and impartial. Sad to say, but that is how people are.

@Rykk .. I can't speak for the bryce folks, but as a Terragen user we only get fired up when a certain member here, posts her work in the terragen gallery and it is high on the hot 20. Her work is sub-standard at best. It is always the same people that votes her work to the top 20, and they are NOT from the terragen community. As I've said over & over, the hot 20 is not about how many friends one has at renderosity, but on the quality of their submission. The Terragen community is full of kind, helpful people, many give much of there time to help new users to the program. So when this person submitts a sub standard work, her friends automatically give it the big old V with TOTAL disregard for any other Terragen artist. To the terragen community this is the problem with the hot 20. Also this particular artist has been offered sound advice on improving her work from the terragen community, she publicly flat out said she wants no help from the terragen community.

Mac8, at the peril of getting another warning from Nick I am going to say again, crossover voting happens everywhere. You obviously didn't take my suggestion and look at the most commented fractal gallery. The proof is right there for you to see. There's a first fractal in there with almost 70 comments. It's a flame with a flood filter - the most clichfractal that can be created - with 70 comments. If you look at the artist's gallery you can see that he or she is a pretty good Poser artist. It's painfully obvious that that image is a popularity carry over. It happens. Get over it.

Deagol, I think it is agreed by all, this type of backslapping does happen in some communities. My comments were directed towards rykk who suggests Terragen users get "fired up" (perhaps a violation of TOS). Your statement of "It happens. Get over it" does nothing to help honest people that try to make the hot20 work. And you are correct, I did not look in the fractal hot 20, although I have friends that work with fractals, I know not the first thing about them and have never voted on any fractal. Various mods say they are working on a common solution towards this problem, my advice is to vote fair and honestly .. good day

Mac - ("8", not the Keith-type one, lol!). I wasn't trying to say anything one way or the other about or rehash the mess of earlier. Just actually agreeing with a lot said about the H20/crossover and suggesting honesty in voting. "Fired up" is a slang, Southern USA word that means "angry". I'm not gonna get involved on one side or the other of that mess, but it did look like people were angry about what they saw as a problem with the H20 from where I sat - which was WELL away from it! Chill - no offense was meant to ANYONE. Rick

Here's a suggestion for the Best/Most Rankings/Views/Comments pages: Why not redo them every year? Take all the Best/Most from the previous year and save them to archive pages for each year. Then on Jan 1 - or heck April 1 or whenever - start the counters all over again. Then more artists would be on those pages, too, and you could browse to previous years to see the best/most from those periods. I'm sure by now everyone is tired of seeing the same tired old Rykk stuff on those pages (even had my last one "downranked" by 2 folks - first time since early '03 - ouch :?( ) and there are definitely better works than those posted by artists weekly here. Or keep them and just add extra yearly ones if the software is hard to change but easier to add? Rick

hmmm i had a whole novel, flourished with jokes and sarcasm, , which i wrote in 42 mins, here when i hit the submit button, then nothing happened at all, the story and suggestions wasn't added here, then i hit the back button and everything was empty... cheers to the amateurism of rendero, cause it sucks to write the same story twice before it is submitted

anyways, it's too late to write it again

that's what it is here, not to be taken seriously, i reckon

goodnight :D

smile

Message edited on: 03/04/2005 20:29

Message edited on: 03/04/2005 20:32

Well said Rykk, 41 and 46; and it's probably easier to add new categories for best/most etc.

A suggestion for novelists: Write the novel in Notepad, copy/paste :)

Rick, that's a great idea. The best and most galleries feed on themselves. Clearing them out would solve that problem and make them much more interesting to view. The most popular artists would quickly float to the top with new their newer images but at least they would be newer images, and it would free up room for others. On a slightly different topic, we should at least reset the counters on any image posted on those 3 days in October, 2003 when the system was broken. What happened there is just plain not fair