I am not an expert on any technical matters related to Poser or V3 or any other figure, but I must say that the amount of negative comments at any new product announcement or introduction in the Poser forum is appalling. And most of these comments come from people who have not even purchased the product.

Personally I have only posted less than five times in the past five years on this board, because I try to think before I open my mouth, and I did not feel I had anything useful to say. But what is going on here with P6 is just too much.

Give CL a chance with P6, will ya ?

Zsolt

Message edited on: 03/08/2005 13:25

Very well stated ! Thanks for posting. ;=]

The funny thing is the worst comments have been made by people who did actually buy Poser5 but couldn't get it to work at the time. They'll never let anyone forget how CL robbed them of their life savings even though the program does now work well enough for them to be using it, they just won't admit it in public for fear of looking very stupid & small minded. It far too much fun laying into CL every opportunity they get for them to stop & think about anything else.

I haven't seen anyone complaining about the price, just CL trying to sell products before they even had a proper mechanism to accept payments and the discounts they're offering. As far as P5 early adopters complaining, the complaints about how well it worked initially (or didn't) are valid. A lot of folks spent a lot of frustrating hours trying to get it to work as advertised. That got CL some $$$ early, but at the cost of a lot of customer confidence.

Well, it's inevitable that people will complain for the firstr little while (every new software release has unexpected bugs), but after a while they will issue a couple of service releases to fix the worst of them, and it will run much more smoothly (that's when I will start thinking about buying it - it may cost me a few more dollars, but it will be worth it for the smoother start that I'll get from most of the bugs having already been resolved). So the CL-bashing is to be expected. It will die down eventually though (just like it did with P4 and P5)...

The best approach is to bash the bashers. Shine the light of truth on them. Point out their errors to them.

Show their childish, incessant whining for what it is.

They absolutely hate it when that happens.

Positive thinking occasionally requires some negative reinforcement in order to make it truly effective.

Expressing negative thinking is frequently the path of least resistance: the job of the heckler is always easier than the job of the creator.

Fortunately -- we've got some creative types with guts.

Bullies don't like dealing with people that have guts. Predators prefer prey that doesn't bite back.

So the CL-bashing is to be expected. It will die down eventually though (just like it did with P4 and P5)... Uh....has it died down? I hadn't noticed.

Just to add a different thread to this, I was looking at the Pixels 3D site, (the people behind Firefly), and their ShaderMaker Pro, and I notice that most of the lighting and material changes being promoted for Poser 6 are actually part of the latest version of ShaderMaker and Tempest (Ambient occlusion, subsurface scattering of light etc. This would make sense - part of the benefit of licencing an existing produce would be to get these updates. It could also mean new lighting types - their website seems to be very proud of their area lights

Attached Link: http://www.pixels3d.com/products/

It's always seemed to me that those who complain the most about Poser5 and the announced Poser6 are those who use Poser4/ProPack with other tools such as Carrara or Bryce. If you use Poser to setup figures and animations, then the addition of Firefly probably wouldn't impress you to much. Figure in that most of the memory leak bugs were caused by Firefly and that initially users didn't understand things like shading rate and bucket size and you suddenly had people complaining that the new version (P5) produced inferior renders that took longer to make. Hopefully Poser6 will have benefits aside from improved rendering and new content, or these people are likely to start complaining all over again.

it would be nice of them to add that water simulation too :)

Unfortunately they'll complain anyway no matter what CL includes in Poser6 or even Poser26 for that matter, it seems like their one purpose in life is to complain, sad really.

Ah, the early days of the Poser 5 announcement, they come back to me like yesterday..gad, what a buncha impatients..;) Actually, compared to last time (5), this is fairly mild..;) Of course, I'm still overwhelmed by 4, so I'm not in any hurry to upgrade..;)

Ah yes ...
;=]

Poser4ever

Funnny how it all works. I remember that P5 was about the most anticipated program I've ever seen, so many here just couldn't wait and were VERY vocal about it. THen it came out and (mostly) the same people that were begging and cussing at CL to get P5 out no matter what, started complaining about ALL of it's problems. For my part, I had no problems, really. I pre-ordered P5 and was very happy with it. Maybe it was the learning curve that kept me from being fustarated, by the time I learned enough to use one of the so-called "broken" functions CL came out with a service release that fixed it. I've been happy with the program, and only fustrated with my own use of it at times. CL has my pre-order and I am waiting (NOT patiently) to see the improvement of P6. The hints and single picture of the new character impresses me. I liked some things with Judy, yes, even over Victoria 2 and 3! When 3Dream came out with Eternal Judy, EJ immediately jumped to the top of my list. I think Jesse may get there if she retains some of Judy's features. She certainly looks better out of the box, than Judy did. I guess the best I can sum it up is, I can't wait for P6! Bring it on! If it has faults I fully expect that CL will fix it. I just hope I can dredge up enough talent to use it, and would rather put my energy in that direction than to spend time complaining about something I haven't even seen yet. mike

And CL. I agree with you Zsolt, geep et al. I have a strong feeling that they (CL) want NOTHING better than a happy customer base, a stable product and good incomes so they can feed their kids. Just like all the rest of us. So seriously, all you complainers and doomsday prophets - let the product come out, buy it (or not), give it a fair chance and then get on with life. After 20 years in the biz, I never yet saw a bug-free release. Ever. And we won't have one this time either. :] Fish - heard all the negative crap in this forum a thousand times about a thousand products from a thousand companies - boring, boring, boring.

Now this is the type of "bashing" thread that I like to see. A thread that turns the tables on the gripers.

Yes.....bring on P6.

I am looking forward to it.

Defiantly Positive -- that's the way.

Of course CL deserves a chance...... But the way they go about revealing their products leaves to much room for bashing, they themselves provoke it too. What else can you expect but bashing if you're going to reveal bit by bit of the product and yet expect people to pre-order to really get some savings, even if they don't know what they're pre-ordering at all.....

Hmmm ... it's a little bit like a "strip tease" isn't it?

If it just "happenned" all at once, it would take all the fun out of it.

AND ...

I know what I (pre)ordered ... Poser5 PLUS a whole bunch of new goodies !!!

Lights, figures, OpenGL, et al !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait ......... well, maybe I can wait for a little while longer.

;=]

Revealing a bit at a time is nothing new. It's an old marketing trick. I saw an example last week, a new car model. Huge billboards, just a bit of a fender showing. Doesn't even say what make it is. And soon we'll see the rest of it. See this kind of thing all the time. :] Fish

Yeah, I think it's called "strip tease." No? ;=]

I'm not a big Poser used. But I know their 3D program has gained a lot of respect. I think they're trying to gain more respect for poser as a serious 3D program. I don't think that's a bad thing. But it does involve changing the way the program works, and you know how people hate change.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it. Better, about two days after the download is due, I go home for Easter, away from the internet, so I'll have two weeks to form my own opinions about P6, without being able to read any of the online feedback!

At $90, even if it's P5 beefed up, it's worth it to me. Hopefully though, Secret #7 is that the "cancel" render button actually cancels renders. :D

I'm going from P4 to 6 so I'm looking forward to it. And I'm eagerly looking forward to the helpful hints and tutorials that will be coming along as well from so many of you. We're gonna need you, ya know. I'll be keeping an eye out for those types of threads and avoid the others. I don't expect smooth sailing but it doesn't matter because it's going to be exciting learning something new that will help me create even better images. Poser has been the most amazing program for me. I love what it allows me to do. And I enjoy coming to forums and joining others who feel the same. So, Poser 6, can't wait for you to arrive!!! Thanks for this thread, zskiraly!

"Give CL a chance with P6, will ya ?" A lot of the Poser crowd are doomsayers and hate the real world. Posing virtual nude dolls is their way of coping with life.

re: " ... Posing virtual nude ... " LOL !!! Prolly very true. ;=]

I haven't seen much P6 bashing. I thought it was suppose to be an enhanced P5 bug fix with new bonus features and content. I would think that there would not be the big P5 feasco(sp?) repeat. I would think that it would be fairly stable from the start, barring miner system gliches such as graphic cards, drivers,under spec computers. Well, that is what I keep telling myself while waiting for it.

1. "I haven't seen much P6 bashing." 2) "I thought it was suppose to be an enhanced P5 bug fix" 3) "I would think that there would not be the big P5 feasco(sp?) repeat." 4) "I would think that it would be fairly stable from the start, barring miner system gliches" You managed to throw in some sucker punches of your own at both P5 and P6.

I beg your pardon? I thought those were good things. Want to explain to me how those are sucker punches? I must be pretty stupid.

I'm looking forward to it too. There's a learning curve with P5 - it's advanced in comparison to P4/PP. The material room takes some getting used to but it's wonderful once it starts to "snap" in place in my mind. Especially with materials, it IS easy to get confused and I think some folks try one thing, if at all, and decree that this or that is broke (I'm talking P5 Sr4 as it stands now). Its not all on the head of the user because CL has missed things too. But we all have. Hobbyist or not, the upgrade price is not huge. Buy a couple of bundle packs at some marketplaces and you've already spent close to that.

beryld, make room for me on the stupid bench too :-) Shonner, I don't see how it's a "sucker punch" to repeat what the president of CL stated repeatedly to the community, pretty much accurately sum up the roll out of P5 (fiasco is putting it mildly), and express a hope for a stable intro of P6. And just for the sake of accuracy in reporting here's the quote from Mr. Keohane... "by Curious Labs (Curious_Labs) on August 22, 2003 05:59 Poser 6 will focus on improving the technology that's already there - e.g. bug fixing, enhancements, speed, memory."

Frankly, I am disgusted with the endless whining directed against both Curious Labs and their flagship product.

Personally, I believe in supporting the company that -- in its turn -- supports my favorite hobby.

Slamming them in the forums seems to be the chosen blood sport of some........and in so doing, the nihilistic critics gain appropriate rewards both for themselves and for the rest of us.

By constantly attacking Curious Labs, such individuals are chipping away at the very thing that they claim to like -- if they don't like it, then why are they hanging around here?

The whining; the complaints; the slams; the ill will; the "if I don't get what I want, when I want it -- then I'll hold my breath until I turn blue!!!!!!!" tactics of the let's-all-bash-CL crowd are seriously damaging this community.

You aren't helping anyone -- not yourselves -- and least of all: your fellow Poser enthusiasts.

If "enthusiast" you are.

It's odd to see individuals that by their own words appear to hate something so much, and yet, pell-mell -- they continue to involve themselves with it.

It causes one to wonder what their real motivations are.

No wonder the good folks at CGtalk have so little respect for us.

I wouldn't respect a bunch of whiney 3-year-olds, either. And I certainly wouldn't invite them to come in and play with the adults -- in adult-oriented games.

Adults have better things to do with their time than spending it listening to the angry tantrums thrown by selfish, self-centered little cry-babies.

Message edited on: 03/08/2005 23:47

Agreed Xenophonz :) Why go to the poser forums? Why use the program at all? There are plenty of CG-related hobbies to pursue. Make avatars, design UT2004 levels, make Sims content, skin Winamp or Windowblinds - thats just a few things and there are a ton more with very active communities. How about this - spend a couple of hours a week learning how to do something new in poser - go read some tutorials. Show off what you've done so someone else may learn from it. shrugs But what do I know? ;)

There are plenty of CG-related hobbies to pursue. Make avatars, design UT2004 levels, make Sims content, skin Winamp or Windowblinds - thats just a few things and there are a ton more with very active communities.

They'd find something to gripe about in those worlds, too.

Some individuals aren't happy unless and until they are spreading their personal bitterness around -- infecting others with the same disease. And looking down upon anyone that takes a positive point of view as being "unhip". Not cool -- like them -- the oh-so-cool cry-babies.

It's their way of getting revenge on the world for.....whatever pettiness it is that they need revenge for.........

Notice how so many think they're cool by telling us how they were the first ones that bought P5 and hated it so much they had to go back to using P4.

"How about this - spend a couple of hours a week learning how to do something new in poser - go read some tutorials. Show off what you've done so someone else may learn from it." Funny you should say that. I'm almost finish a Shade tutorial. Which I might add, may be useful for some of you. You are getting a version of it with P6. Then again, you might not want to bother with it. Doc. Geep, I'm not. I just have a couple of renders to finish and I'll have it up in the Shade forum in a couple of hours. Get it straight, I love my P5, that's why I have high hopes for P6.

"I thought those were good things."

It's like saying to a man, "You're a good man because you don't beat your wife." Rather than because of the good he has done.

I love my wife. That's why I have high hopes for my next one.

Message edited on: 03/09/2005 00:33

"Bullies don't like dealing with people that have guts. Predators prefer prey that doesn't bite back." - Xenophonz

Oh please Noble Xenophonz - spare us your wrath! Don't pecker around our feet muttering "Hairtick. Hairtick. Hairtick."! Leave us grace in your mercy to seek out the errors of our ways and stride forth upon the path of Worhipping the Neon Gods of Curious Labs again!

Salaami, Salaami - wotta load of baloney. There's just got to be a pony in this forum somewhere.

And I'll bet it's not Pink, either. ;]

waves up the thread Heya cooler - out slumming?

Well as one that started their poser use with the poser 5 pre order and waiting 6-8 months to actually use the product I've had my share of beef with CL and Poser. I went backward and got Poser 4 and ProPack and finally got into poser and didn't feel overwelmed and could have fun like the rest. Doomsayer, basher, ranter? oh yeah I've been that and am now saying prove me wrong with poser 6. I preordered, I'm hopeful but I never turn a blind eye to the past. I've seen that I'm not alone. Some of ranters and soapboxers could also be considered community watch dogs too, some may learn from our experiences and see things to look out for too.

"waves up the thread Heya cooler - out slumming?" Nah, just saw some ripples in the water & thought Miz might come by & start a "P6 bashers? They don't really contribute anything to the community! Ban 'em all!!!" subthread

Oh please Noble Xenophonz - spare us your wrath! Don't pecker around our feet muttering "Hairtick. Hairtick. Hairtick."! Leave us grace in your mercy to seek out the errors of our ways and stride forth upon the path of Worhipping the Neon Gods of Curious Labs again!

Thanks for confirming our delusions to us.

Apparently, they aren't so delusory, after all........

Then again -- a laid-back form of cynicism shines every bit as brightly as the more active variety.

It's just gotten comfortable and worn-in -- like an old shoe.

Fits well, too.

Noble? Who's noble?

It's just gotten comfortable and worn-in -- like an old shoe.

I wouldn't look for any difference of substance from that quarter........it'll always carry the same flavor.

No matter what the topic.

I wouldn't say they're watchdogs more like ferrets as they never want to let go once they have their teeth in something tasty like a good CL bashing rant.

ferret? hmmmm always told I was more like the pilsberry doughboy hahaha. CL and e-frontier got Shade 7 release right for me, I've been happy with CL and the Shade 7 support so I'm very hopeful and excited about Poser 6, just a bit gun shy til I start using the program. CL did say Poser 6 was only a major bug fix to get Poser 5 stuff fixed now there is a lot more they are saying so yeah I'm a bit leary. Hopeful just leary.

I got Poser 5 shortly after the first service release and apart from some times rendering very slow have never had significant problems with it. Poser 6 looks set to build on the strengths of Poser 5 and at the price looks to be very good value. For doubters - have a look at prices for higher end software that features cloth and hair dynamics.

It seems to me that a lot of people who complained, complain and will complain about Poser 5 or 6 are just overwhelmed by it. They are not up to the learning curve. Let's face it, there is a huge market for people who just want to make a mostly naked girl image with minimal effort. What they want basically is a Poser 4 with a "make sexy art to post in the gallery" button and a "make porn animation for private use" button. Choose the girl, the type, the outfit (optional), the action and press "go". Poser 5 or Poser 6 is not for them. But they will keep on asking "hey, how do you make those cool renders ? I spent at least 12 minutes on my scene and it doesn't look as good. Poser really sucks !"

Wow. Pretty vitriolic thread. Sounds just like the kind of "civil discourse" which pervades life here in Washington: if you don't like someone's perspective on something, label them evil and yelp for their head.

That's often what happens here.... Here they label you, as compiler does, a beginner or novice who doesn't know how to use poser at all.

It's so typical and so prejudice, but I guess a lot of people around here are just that.

I've been labeled a beginner of novice a couple times for no reason at all, just like compiler did there's no reason at all for it, until people noticed my gallery and had to change their view a bit.

Stop calling people names, there's no need for it all, we can discuss something without the branding. Not every one needs to have the same opinion and some with a different opinion isn't always evil or a novice or stupid or whatever you may call them.

Message edited on: 03/09/2005 08:56

"Stupid is as stupid does!"

I think I heard that somewhere.

;=] (edited to remove all the X-rated content) ;=] Message edited on: 03/09/2005 08:59