Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12398&Form.ShowMessage=2161747

Please explain why this is a continuing problem at Renderosity, and why it is you refuse to correct it. Many people would love to understand your logic.

Thanks!

Some members think it's a problem. The admins don't think it's a problem. Unless and until THEY think it's a problem, nothing will be done. bonni

I think you're right elizabyte. This has been going on for so long (over a year to my knowledge) and so many people have made suggestions as to how it might be corrected (I've posted in 2 such threads along with many others), the only conclusion one can draw must be that the site admin simply couldn't care less what their members think.

Some or a lot - how about a poll so you know for a fact.

Well from what they put on page about how the Hot 20 works maybe the perception they have of it is different than the people who think there is a problem with it. The Hot 20 is based on the number of votes by members an image has gotten in the previous 7 days. The button for voting is below the full size image after you click on the thumbnail. Thus, one member can only generate one view during the 7 day period. The main gallery does not track unique viewings, so it's count will always be higher. These ranking are updated in real time. Surfers that are not logged in can not vote. The vote button is not shown when you browse through the Hot 20. The "Hot 20" is for entertainment purposes only. It is not a competition, a challenge or a contest. Members are strongly discouraged from soliciting votes as this practice alienates other members. Some others seem to be alienated for other reasons but I guess they are not as entertained by it as others and might be taking it as a competition, challenge or contest. It's usually the case that you can't please everyone so no matter what they did with it some aren't going to be satisfied with it and still would complain. So most likely they haven't put much effort into improving it that wouldn't be worth it.

To be fair, LillianH did enter into some degree of dialog about this not so long ago. Basically, there isn't much that can be done to prevent the little voting cliques and such (I can believe that, too). But, still, the admins don't see it as a problem. Until and unless they do, it's going to remain the way it is. I never bother to look, why should I? Just so that I can know who has the most members in their voting clique? Pass. bonni

The main cause of this H20 nonsense is the favorite artist list in my view. People automatically get an e-mail from their friends that a new image has been posted, they then follow the link, comment, rate, fawn, vote and then leave again without ever looking at the other images. Far from helping create a community, the favorite artist list does nothing more than create cliques and should be removed. The arguments that I've heard say that people don't have time to look at all the images posted and they only have time to look at the images posted by their friends and a select few quality artists - if this is the case then the whole rating and voting structure is worthless. Best thing that could be done for the renderosity community (in my view) is to remove the favorite artist list facility and force people to open their eyes and actually look at the other images, maybe then this open warfare will stop.

Best way to make the Hot 20 fair, is to get out and vote for your favorite image :) Many of the images in the Hot 20 only have a small amount of votes - yet many views - If you see something you like - vote for it - encourage others in your forum to do the same - start a "get out and vote campaign" If everyone who viewed the galleries - remembered to vote for the images that they Really thought worthy - perhaps the current system would work?? Just a thought :) Dee-Marie

start a "get out and vote campaign" And form your OWN little voting clique! (Just joking, I know that's NOT what Dee-Marie meant ;-) bonni

I have no idea why, but I did not include "favorite" artists on my profile. Maybe it's because I don't like the idea of playing favorites. I agree with Steve in that it's way too easy for some people to follow links to a personal gallery rather than actually viewing a section gallery. But eliminating the favorite artists list is not a permanent fix. It'd only close one avenue for friendly voting. No matter what Rendero would do, it'd still go on. It's a huge website, you know. And I agree with Dee-Marie that the sincere vote is the strongest show of support. It works, even if not perfectly so. There will always be the clones (which can be fixed) and friendly votes (which can't be fixed) that will cause images to "infiltrate" Hot 20s. Just my thoughts, too - Rich

" Best way to make the Hot 20 fair, is to get out and vote for your favorite image :)" why bother? one of the "vote groups" just come along, vote for the images they like (some of which are quite frankly appalling and there is evidence that these groups use multiple accounts to login and bump votes) and everyone elses vote is made worthless.

Ok, I agree with Rids and Rich2 about the Fav Artists lists. I've had a list, but I have had the e-mail feature disabled since my signup. But I agree aslo that that won't fix this matter either. Its not just a matter of voting more, its like Khai stated, they will come and vote these works along. Either that, or people vote for things they like having no idea how the program works that made it. I see really impressive art in say the C4D forum, but I won't vote there, cause I have no inside knowledge to know if its H20 worthy or not. I think it is this knowledge that should have the leverage in the voting arena. This is most likely impossable to ever do, and even less likely to get the staff to do it, but I think a vote should reflect the number of images the voter has in the gallery that there voting in. I'll use myself as an example. I have 239 images in my gallery right now. I'll guess that about 180 of them are Terragen, about 25 fractals, and the rest Poser or Bryce. So if I see and image in the Terreagen gallery I like and vot for it, my vote woud be worth 180. So if this were true, then the experianced TG community could easliy overthrow these voting cliques, since they ould only have none to a view votes themselves. This is just a daydream of mine, likely never happen :) -Dave

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12416&Form.ShowMessage=2141125

Hmmmm? Doesn't look like Tim is going to respond? Who the Hell is Tim anyway? LOL

Pink ponies ride again! Get out and vote for the pink ponies!!! Remember... think PINK*! Carolly (Didn't Legume get 13 out of 20? Or was it more?)

The Hot 20 is in your hands - if you are serious about changing the way images are awarded Hot 20 status - then ... get out and vote for the images that you feel "deserve" Hot 20 status.

On the other hand, if you are not serious about this matter, and just want to poke fun at artists - and if it really does not matter to you who gets into the Hot 20 - you can go the Pink Pony Route - which is to say ... You Really Do Not care, nor want to change things for the better :)

It is up to you - are you a serious artist, and want change - or, do you only wish to create drama :]

Thus, the Hot 20 is in your hands, you can use or abuse it. I still believe that if we all remember to vote for images that we really feel deserve to be in the Hot 20, that it could make a difference in the quality, and diveristy, of the Hot 20 images.

Dee-Marie

" The Hot 20 is in your hands - if you are serious about changing the way images are awarded Hot 20 status - then ... get out and vote for the images that you feel "deserve" Hot 20 status." WE DO but when you have a slew of clone accounts to out vote the legitimate accounts your vote is useless. it's being abused. it's not in OUR hands. it's in the hands of the those abusing it. how many times must this point be made?

"Thus, the Hot 20 is in your hands, you can use or abuse it." What a statement! To all those who abuse...Just Keep On Abusing! You're pre-approved! To those who don't abuse...you're screwed! "you can go the Pink Pony Route - which is to say ... You Really Do Not care, nor want to change things for the better :)" Well, you'd better watch where you step; there's steaming piles of Pink Pony dung all over the place with plenty of Pink Pony hay to keep feeding them, and somebody has left the barn door wide open! "It is up to you - are you a serious artist, and want change - or, do you only wish to create drama :]" Create drama? Is asking for an administrative plan to fix this creating a drama? The only drama I'm seeing is your failed attempt at being philosophical, speaking as if you're dealing with a bunch of whiney 9 year-olds. It's the 9 year-olds who are creating the problem, NOT the serious artists who are fed up. "I still believe that if we all remember to vote for images that we really feel deserve to be in the Hot 20, that it could make a difference in the quality, and diveristy, of the Hot 20 images." As long as Renderosity has an automated system of abuse (See Rids comment above), those who WANT change will always finish last.

"I still believe that if we all remember to vote for images that we really feel deserve to be in the Hot 20, that it could make a difference in the quality, and diveristy, of the Hot 20 images." As long as the favorite artist list is in use a very large number of people will still only be voting for the images they are notified about..... 1) receive e-mail from one of your favorite artists that they have posted a new image 2) comment, rate and vote for image 3) close window and go back to what you were doing (missing all the GOOD images that other artists have posted in the meantime).

what a load of malarky!!! as stated above, we DO vote and try to make a difference...but it only touches the tip of the iceberg when, as also stated above, there are many clone accounts contributing to the problem as well as a HUGE segment of people who vote for their friends work, good OR bad quality...you think it's not a problem????????????? then WHY are their people upset over this issue in SEVERAL different forums? and it is usually the same group of people causing the problem...but fine and dandy, you are basically saying it's not your problem...so I'll vote with my pocketbook...I spent about 2 grand at DAZ this year, wouldn't Rendo like that in THEIR pocket? well, unfortunately I will not support a corporation who doesn't give a rats @ss about me as a member...but I know that Rendo doesn't care about THAT either, because the people causing the problem are the ones who buy a lot of content from Rendo, and my purchases would just be a drop in the bucket compared to theirs, so obviously money talks and bs walks!! you're not going to take any action that could impact those sales!

here's an afterthought that I'd like to mention though, I already saw it mentioned elsewhere...why not give the forum mods the authority to delete images from the H20 only, which would still leave it in the person's gallery...sounds like a fair compromise to me...that way, they could weigh the pros and cons of doing so on a case-by-case basis, and do what they feel will reap the most benefits for that particular situation...

a point has been made, one that has yet to be answered tho it has been made over and over and over again. you were quick to answer before, why not now?

"It is up to you - are you a serious artist, and want change - or, do you only wish to create drama :] Thus, the Hot 20 is in your hands, you can use or abuse it" Two statements there that merely reflect what is already happening and thats what we are complaining about! 1) WE are serious artists and wish to use the H20 properly whereas THEY only wish to cause drama and with the current setup they find it only too easy to succeed. 2) The Hot 20 is in our hands? By that I presume you mean the users? Well it is being both used and abused, we use it, they abuse it, so where is the solution in that??? Neither statement has anything to do with a solution, they are both merely reflecting the situation as it is and we already know all about that. If the admin have no intention of doing anything about this then please tell us, we will at least know where we stand and can move on to pastures new and stop wasting our time!

"If the admin have no intention of doing anything about this then please tell us, we will at least know where we stand and can move on to pastures new and stop wasting our time!" Hear, hear! The moderators of all the forums do a pretty good job of keeping these Hot20 threads from getting overheated, though they must be sick & tired of it by now, and I've read all sorts of assurances that things are being looked at and that the staff at this site do care. So we get a response from a senior staff writer here and what is it? 'Stop whining about it and get out and vote; feel free to make as big a farce out of it as you like; are you serious artists or just making a fuss?' Nice one deemarie, that has to be about the most offensive reply I've ever read in any Hot20 thread.

It's as I said. The admins don't think it's a problem. If some members do, that's just too damn bad. Until and unless the admins think there's a problem, nothing will be done. Frankly, I think the members could shout the house down and the admins would continue on with the "Abuse it or use it, but shut up about it, already" position. bonni

I would recommend to just remove the Vote button from the page if you got there from your favorite artist email, just like if you clicked on the image from the Hot20 itself. This wouldn't eliminate the problem completely but those certain people are probably a lot less likely to go hunt out their friend's image in a gallery. I agree with Rids, the fact that it is so easy to vote from your favorite artists email causes this. It takes a lot of time to go through the main galleries, I know I don't keep up. I'd like to have my favorite artists emails still to see their new images and maybe comment but I wouldn't mind not having the vote button there. And I would vote for images I like when I do have the time to go through the gallery. Michael

"The admins don't think it's a problem." bonni, Even if you are on the inside arguing against the so-called HOT20, and producing evidence of abuse including bribery and intimidation, it doesn't matter. My best arguments (with linked images and included quotes) were for nought. Even suggesting alternatives to replace it were for nought. Even suggesting mechanics to minimize the worst of the abuse were for nought. We have been complaining about this for years and years and years, but the last partial patch on the bleeding wound was in 2001, IIRC. It is possible that 1 or 2 of the admins might feel that there is a problem, but not enough to tip the iceberg. And if they do see a problem, it is with people complaining, and not with the actual feature which they regard as a plus to the site. This is a hobbyist's site, financed by hobbyists buying from their favorite merchants... who are all going huggie-kissie to each other's images and keeping those ads high in the rankings so that other hobbyists can see their wares. It is an ugly battlefield, but until all the admins have to walk the galleries daily and read all the comments over months worth of time, they will never see the broken glass and bitterweed and bloodied egos, and they certainly will not see the patterns behind the behavior and the armed camps of desperate merchants. Compare this to an elementary school where the principal is shocked to discover that some kid shot another... without walking the halls, he'd have no way of knowing that the kids had formed cliques and had been fighting for months... until the bodies get carried away. Well, we've lost good artists due to the hot20 cliques, and the PTB still don't recognize that guns are being brought into the classroom. Carolly

Hi all, We do acknowledge and realize the HOT 20 problem and we are going to be reviewing that soon. It is a big undertaking and a lot involved in the changing of it. We apologize for the time its taking to address this issue but it will be addressed as soon as possible. Please be patient (and I realize that you all have been patient) a while longer. Thank you Stacey Community Manager

erm no. no glib answers please, since what you have said has been promised before, at least three times by my count. "we're reviewing it..." "we're looking at it..." no. enough. lets just try something new shall we? it's revoluntionary I know.. let's do something and fix it.

Khai, I am new to this job so this hasn't been said by me before and I intend to address this issue. But being new to this position there are alot of issues on my "to do" list so please be patient and give me time to fix it. I promise that it will get done as soon as I possibly can. Thanks for your understanding. Stacey

put this way. it was on your predessors list. it's been on the list since I joined here 5 years ago. you can understand why ppl are annoyed over this. we are told it's gonna be fixed then it's not. another complaint is made, we're told it's gonna be fixed and then it's not, again, again and again. there's only so much patience to go round you know. thanking us for our understanding is getting a little thin, since everytime we're promised that this is going to be looked at, we're thanked for our understanding.

we are going to be reviewing that soon I genuinely mean no offence by this, but we've heard that before. Personally, I couldn't care less about the Hot 20, and that's the truth. I do care about the apparently flippant way the administration appears to handle the concerns of the membership (note: I only say "apparent" because I can only judge by what we see from this side, rather than from what actually goes on behind the scenes; the admins may care deeply, but their way of interacting makes it appear otherwise). I'll believe that there will be changes when and if I see them. Until then, I'm going to assume that "we'll be looking at it" means exactly what it meant with previous admins said it. bonni

There's a very simple way to show that the problems with the Hot 20 are being taken seriously. Remove it until it can be fixed. Period. Simple as that. It's clear it's not working as intended, and it's causing a lot of problems. The people who are causing these problems don't seem to be vocal in the forums, they just vote. Maybe taking away their little ego toy would make them speak up, who knows. But we can say for sure that the way the Hot20 works right now is just a trigger for anger and resentment across many communities. So remove it until it can be fixed. It's not complicated. Lazydog, it was me who made the comments some time ago about a "transparent" system, just to satiate your curiousity. ;) - Oshyan

And that has what to do with this subject? I for one do have a life but I am entitled to some leisure time and believe it or not I come here for just that purpose. ps. you appear to have a faulty keyboard.

lol @ Rids & thanks for that Oshyan (I just liked the phrase so I hope you don't mind me borrowing it). :)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1999920

"Best idea? If it bothers you, ignore it." No.

Dialyn, I have seen many, many of these discussions, in the Terragen community, and in links from there to several others on Rendo. Not once in any of those threads I have read has anyone spoken up passionately in favor of the Hot 20. I have never seen a message saying "No, don't take the Hot 20 away, I love it!" The vast majority who post seem to see it as problematic at the least, and I think many would not mind if it were simply gone, although I think most would prefer it to be simply fixed somehow. Perhaps it is an unspoken majority who don't post in the forums who are in favor of it. If that's the case, I say to hell with them. Clearly they're only here to show off or have their ego stroked, not to participate in the real community. Not to share ideas, techniques, etc. Not to give, but to take. Who needs 'em? So I say if anyone really loves the Hot 20 and wants it to stay the way it is, speak up now! - Oshyan

GeT A LifE PeOpLe. LOL! I love how someone who types like that is telling other people to get a life. bonni

where did I put the troll food...

If "a life" is what he's got, I hope it's not contageous. :p - Oshyan

... and in grown up writing it would be "contagious"

can we get a clean out crew in here?

Trying to get changes at Renderosity is pretty pointless, I know. Perhaps I'll go change the world with some political morphing animations using other people's copyrighted images or something. bonni

Some people are shiftless, some shift for themselves... some work the night shift (but are normal when the sun is up)... some shift automatically, others prefer to use a stick... some use html to do half the shifting for them. Carolly

I guess some just can't seem to get their shift together wink

Aww, this is bullshift. bonni

Dear forum heaven, there's gotta be about ten trolls in this thread alone! Who's minding troll town? Good time to attack the troll homefront and whipe out the whole village! Strange how topics on the hot twenty seems to lure out the worst trolls. There's either a lot of cowards on Renderosity or a lot of members and merchants worried they will lose credibility or sales if they speak out as themselves so they become a bunch of imps for a time, or maybe it's those hot twenty huggers themselves not wanting you to know who they are, turning into nasty aliens. I happen to think most folks want the hot twenty the way it is, the desperate trolling proves it. Gives lots of members something to live for and turn into trolls for. I also think the hot twenty is total bullshit and more about who has the most friends or pays out the best. Nothing to do with creativity. Perhaps Renderosity should have a Troll Gallery and even better yet, a Troll Forum! A place for clones and drones and Trolls to meet! Get them all in there at once, lock the place tight and then hit delete.

I don't think you'd want to hear my comments on your images. You're using other people's copyrighted photographs for most of them. bonni

I am surprised you are even bothering to read those comments bonni. I for one, can't say that I have any interest in reading anything that is written in a childish manner. (and for all the anti-flaming comments that are sure to follow I did not say any person is childish, but a style of writing that is used by many children is childish)

Message edited on: 03/22/2005 17:04

it's supposed to look "cool" and be "leet" thing is, it just makes the user look stupid..