Attached Link: another ecosystem...

I think it is an understandable reaction of Infinite buyers to want to experiment with the new features. I do see a real risk though of Vue artwork going the same way as Hollywood blockbusters: not making what inspiration or vision dictates, but just making the most spectacular the computer can do. Just as in the movies, special effects alone will never be enough. Pictures such as now appear in the gallery are usually just overcrowded with detail; even the master of minimalism, Kenwas, hasnt been able to resist the impulse to strew the courtyard of his recent "Neuschwanstein" with Poser people... But I do hope and trust that in time well see truly artistic and tasteful use of this undeniably powerful feature. Probably in the end we will have some very good, some pretty awful, and much in-between work made with V5I, just as I`m sure we'll continue to have very good (and very bad, and much in-between) work made with earlier versions of Vue.

Ciao Luca, Art used to be made of (in sequential/causal order) - inspiration (God?) - heart - mind - hands - and tools. Today, computer graphics eliminates most of the need of hands. But the rest remains! It only means that we have to connect directly the tools with the mind. But the decisive factors, will always be those that stay above the tools inthe hierarchy! at least, this is the way I personally see it :-) Orio

Take a look to czarnyrobert gallery BEFORE V5 Infinite: excellent artwork. Or the images of drawbridgep for Bryce and Terrace-tenmou for Poser... We will have always excellent, good, mediocre and bad art, irregardless of the tools used. Ecosystem will make life easier, but a cheesy illustration is a cheesy illustration... :)

With a feature such as ecosystem, there is a great temptation at first to see "how many and how big". It is a bit of a necessity to see what our physical machines can handle and to see how the feature works. After that phase, I think, the creative phase pretty much reverts back to "normal" as we can now decide how to best use the new technology in the most creative ways.

At first,art is an creative idea.Don't confuse tools use to create art(pencil or computer) and art.Computer is a democratic tool to help us to express our artistic idea.My cousin is a fantastic photographer(sens of light,point of view ,etc...) and he use the same camera than me(i am a so so photographer ,ordinary one even i like take photos)

I've read a number of comments on different forums suggesting that Vue's Eco system is a gimmick. I strongly disagree, Vue is a landscape package and landscapes invariably have large numbers of similar objects scattered around, trees, leaves, rocks, litter, whatever! A system to handle this kind of random distribution of objects is essential in a landscape package IMO, it's just that most landscape apps don't have this ability! It seems to me a feature as central to an application's functionality as this can hardly be overused. Obviously we don't want every Vue image to be a huge vista covered in primaeval forests but I'd say every exterior render could, and probably should use Ecosystems! Just my two pennyworth! - Baz

1. it is a WIP 2) Takes ages to learn new techniquesand what they can do/best way to use them (ecosystem) 3) on same theme: I could have had gazillions of legionaries in my item in the gallery, but I wanted to make a SCENE, so I created a scene of them marching down the woody hillside of a small river valley. let folk have fun :)

From what I've seen the ecosystem is an incredible tool and once people have got used to it then things will settle down and the feature will be used properly. At the moment its all so new the temptation is to push it to the limit, like trying to see how fast your new car / motorcycle will go ;-)

I don't think the main problem is the image itself, it's said person has done so MUCH complaining about V5I pricing(syaing he'd never get it)/gallery images(being bored with them)/gloating vehemently in other software forums(sp?). So I think the comments are just a way others to "lash out". I will refrain, a waste of time & typing energy :)

I think it's just the kid with a new toy syndrome. We all know how that feels. And we all do it. Eventually, the toy turns back into a tool and is used with discretion once again. Those who post during the new toy phase are just saying 'Look what I can do' or 'watch this...'. I don't think 'art' is even an intention at that point. As others have stated here, things calm down and it's back to work we go... And besides, art can't be killed....

Ditto Monsoon. I remember when color monitors became very common for the IBM compatible. Color was overused everywhere! Then, people settled down and started using color in a wiser way. Same thing here.

IMHO also....technology can only help & further our art experience. The more technology advances, the more we can put our minds visions of what we want to create into reality without any limitations. I've always wanted to populate my mountains with trees until now that couldn't be done. Myself, I'm filled with excitement & postive thoughts as what the future holds for everyone :)

If you look at the improvements to the Vue line that V5 and Infinite have brought, such as more realistic lighting modes, procedural terrains, more powerful texture editor and ecosystems, then it seems to me that the technology is giving us the ability to get closer to nature and that can only be good for the quality of art we produce. The trick is knowing which feature to use and when and that can only come from experience, something no-one has much of with Infinite so far, its too new.

If we spent the time we use criticizing others into being helpful I think we all would be better off and learn from the ones who seem to know more about how to use Vue than I. Some people don't like to help or give up a little tricks that could help others in the learnning process. I know because I have pm'ed such indiniduals and never got a reply back how they accomplished something in Vue. All the people who wrote tutorials that are in the backroom need to be thanked big time for what they have freely given to the Vue community. I see a lot of jelousy in some of these comments. Why.....? Are you afraid to post these type images because you may be the one that gets criticized. I think we should be careful of stones that we throw as has already been proven can come back to haunt you. :) Art is in the beholders eye so why critize when the beholder may see it different than you. This happens in all the RR gallerys and it never seems to stop. It should be fun as with any new toy, car, motorcyle, home we get. Why spoil the fun for others, just because we think we are better artist than them. Really are we...... :)

OK, time for me to reply.... Who ever said this is made with Vue 5 Infinite? That's what everyone assumed and that was the purpose too. The only thing I did was start thinking how I could accomplish the same effects as the eco-system somehow in Vue 5. I'm not going to pay a loty of money for a system I don't need at all. After thinking a long time I finally found a solution and I'm happy with it. At least it seems to look so good that every one assumes it's created with the new Vue 5 Infinite Eco-system. Later on I'll be adding another image, a much more improved one. I'll explain too how it was accomplished. Vue5 infinite : Art killed by technology ?? I do agree and that's why I posted the image. Their are just to many slapped together V5I images in gallery.....

Aeilkema Ah I was wondering why you used ALpha planes ;)

I don't understand why people STILL insist on criticizing the technology. WHY? Geez, give it some time for the "newness" to wear off. Who cares if people are having fun with "populated" scenes? That's human nature - AND a good thing! Why should there always have to be workarounds to achieve our goals? I'm tired of trying to create ways to make decent looking forests. I'm tired of watching my system resources drop to zero - whether it's Vue, or Bryce, or whatever. If the software can make new and powerful images an easier goal to attain, what is wrong with that? If you don't like the "over-populated" Vue 5I images, no one is making you look at them. I can't wait until my copy of Vue 5I arrives - not to make as many objects as I can, but to make my images look like I want them to look. The software is only a tool to make art - it can't substitute for creativity and inspiration. In the weeks and months to come, the work produced by Vue 5I will get better and better. Let's approach it with excitement and anticipation. That's a much more enjoyable way to see things...

I totally agree with aae991....I dont care how a picture is created as long it looks good and has a great mood :) crappy pictures will always stay crappy...no matter what software one has used ;)

I haven't seen an abundance of V5I pic just "thrown together"

Aeilkema, I think in the past we've all used alphas in attempting to accomplish what the eco-does now. Is there a reason why you are always complaining/negative etc? IMHO it's quite tiring.

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 11:42

Ecosystem is a powerful new tool, and like a lot of tools it takes some practise to get the true hang of it. You really can't expect people to start using it in an artistic, subtle way from day one. Its main use as far as I can tell is to automate background detail, not to become foreground detail. However, people (including me) are playing with it, using it, finding what it can & can't do. Not everything posted here is to be viewed as art. Sometimes it's just a picture, really. Some might say even the tools in the old Vue are art-cheats. Just another tool IMO.

Well, hope you enjoyed yourself. I don't really find it amusing. I was actually defending you. You don't want Vue Inf, then fine, continue doing what you're doing. Leave the rest of alone. I know for sure I'll be leaving you alone from this day forward.

There seem to be a lot of people lately that hop on the "lets bash V5I" band wagon and I really dont know why. Do they think its cool to be against it? It seems that anymore when I come to renderosity (which is becoming less and less) that its full of people bashing the some of the products this forum is about or bashing people trying to help. Case in point is the thread about a week ago bashing e-on for Vue Infinite claims. This person was just looking to flame the product and anyone responding. If you dont like the software or its features its really simple, dont buy it. e-on has several versions of Vue. So buy the one with the features you need. Like several of the people have said in this thread, the Ecosystem can save some of us lots of time in scene setup and even render times. What's so wrong with having that feature? What people need to keep in mind is that the Ecosystem is only a feature of V5I. It is not the whole program. There are too many new features of V5I to even go into here. Visit the e-on web site and they list them. I really dont understand some of this "us (those who hate V5I) against them (those who want to use it)" attitude. Nobody is forcing you too but V5I. The complaining or bashing just makes it look like those people are jealous. Whether they are or not it looks that way. Sorry for the rant but I miss the days when this forum was about helping each other or useful critiques. Luckily there are still some in here that do that but it seems more and more this is more for flaming people and products.

qouting aae991 "I don't understand why people STILL insist on criticizing the technology. WHY? Geez, give it some time for the "newness" to wear off. Who cares if people are having fun with "populated" scenes? That's human nature - AND a good thing! Why should there always have to be workarounds to achieve our goals? I'm tired of trying to create ways to make decent looking forests. I'm tired of watching my system resources drop to zero - whether it's Vue, or Bryce, or whatever. If the software can make new and powerful images an easier goal to attain, what is wrong with that? If you don't like the "over-populated" Vue 5I images, no one is making you look at them. I can't wait until my copy of Vue 5I arrives - not to make as many objects as I can, but to make my images look like I want them to look. The software is only a tool to make art - it can't substitute for creativity and inspiration. In the weeks and months to come, the work produced by Vue 5I will get better and better. Let's approach it with excitement and anticipation. That's a much more enjoyable way to see things..." end qoute AMEN :) Great artists has always used the best tools available for their time, technology cant kill art, lack of progress and imagination can hurt it tho, so lets be grateful for e.on improving on the tools and features of vue. Eco systems is just one out of several REALY important improvements to the vue lineup in v5Infinite, especialy when it comes to integrating vue with a real workstudio pipeline.

For me a tool that allows me to get as close to reproducing some of the ideas and images that float around inside my head can't be a bad thing. I have painted and drawn since a young child but have never felt I could get close to those internal pictures. With computer programmes such as Vue I feel that maybe...just maybe!? there will be a chance that my ideas will now see the light of day. I look upon Vue as a tool, nothing more...after all it cannot create pictures/animation by itself, it needs someone to operate it. I for one believe that technology can only allow art to blossom and thrive. (I don't currently have Vue but have placed my order.)

Imagine, you are quite right, obviously. There is no point in cultivated negativity - but IMHO there is just a little point in endless posts of the type "I got mine today!", "Mine is still preparing for shipment", "Can't wait till it arrives", etc. Personally, I found the level of hysteria over what is, exactly, just a tool, pretty absurd and at times quite irritating. Part of this has to do, I fear, with the fact that there are yet so many images in the gallery from which it is clear that people at times have barely mastered the essentials of material editing, decent lighting, or composition, in which case ecosystems etc. easily become the emperors new clothes... For myself, I decided not to buy anything from e-on for a while simply because I disagree with their European pricing policies. Maybe the day will come along when I get an idea for an image for which I desperately need the ecosystem, or some other V5I feature, and at that point I`ll probably put my high principles ;-) aside and buy it. But maybe some people indeed ARE jealous; not everybody is fortunate enough to just be able to spend 400 or 600 dollars at a whim. Imagine what visiting the Vue forum must feel like for those people, these days. I actually saw somebody offer some of his own software for sale so that he could buy Infinite...

I have to admit that the only reason that I could order Vue is because I'm a student so I can get it at a reduced rate. Otherwise I would have to wait ...and save up!

MartinPh I apologize if my rant made it seem that everyone commenting on V5I were jealous that they didn't have it. That was not my intention and I do agree with you on several points. I do understand that it is a pricey piece of software and not everyone can or even wants to run out and buy it. I don't know much about e-ons euro pricing but I have seen people having problems with it. That's too bad and hopefully e-on can get the fixed so those people are not alienated from purchasing their products if they choose too. I just hate V5I is being judged so poorly on one feature. I can see why people are focused solely on it since its brand new and e-on is really touting it but its only one of so many features. I do agree that people just posting saying they got it is kind of useless. I would like to hear those people also comment on their experiences with it or post some works in progress. That way everyone can truly judge if its something for them or not by real peoples reactions. I also agree that useless gushing over it can cause an adverse reaction to people not interested in it. I dont know, I guess we all just need to wait until the newness of it all blows over for good and bad.

There seem to be a lot of people lately that hop on the "lets bash V5I" band wagon and I really dont know why. Do they think its cool to be against it? Strange comment... Did bash E-On? Not at all. Why must these things always be viewed as bashing? Lighten up a bit please. I'm not bashing E-On at all, I'm just looking for a different way to accomplish something I need, without having to pay a lot of money for it. Is that considered bashing already? The only thing I've got against Vue Infinite is the price. I do think it's a great piece of software, as Vue 4 and 5 are too. I'm using Vue 5 almost every day and with pleasure. I just can't afford Vue 5 Infinite because of some choices E-On has made, but that has been discussed in the past. If do want Vue 5 Infinite (and I do want it), I do have to pay around $940 for it overhere. I simply can't afford that. So I just started thinking if I could somehow find features in Vue 5 that will bring me a bit closer to the Eco-System, what's wrong about that? A number of you are over reacting. You've assumed a number of things based on how you've perceived things to be and now I'm suddenly against Vue 5 Infinite and I'm bashing Vue. Please, give me a break, I didn't ask for this thread at all. I'll quote myself (before some of you will do it for me): "Always wanted to this but since Vue couldn't handle stuff like this before I never managed to do so. Took me about 5 minutes to set up the scene. Roman Soldier is from PoserWorld." Vue 4 never could handle my poser rendered images as alpha planes, they just never turned out correctly. E-On never seemed to fix that problem, so I left it as as. With Vue 5 Infinite coming and seeing 100's of poser figures in it, I realized I never tried it anymore to check if the bugs got fixed. Then I found out that the bugs did get fixed and now they work fine. For your information, I've just tried the same images as alpha planes in Vue 4 again and they still don't work. Now all of you start assuming something that I never said. I know one could read that into my statement, but if you would really take a good look at the image, you can see it's not Vue 5 Infinite at all. A number of you noticed that already. So please don't call me against E-On or Infinite, that's what all of you made of it, I never said so. As for being negative, I'm most of the time not. I'm only very negative about the price E-on charges me for their software and I'm not the only one......

I dont remember even saying your name so relax. Since I didn't, I also dont know if you have anything against e-on or not. Thats between you and them. I was speaking in general about a lot of posts popping up in a lot of forums like this. I didn't realize this thread was about you specifically. Sorry, but I dont even know who you are and I haven't seen you in other vue forum sites I go to and I have not had the time to look at your posted gallery that some people mentioned. So I really dont know how you see that I was targeting you specifically Sorry you feel its all about you. I was commenting in general. I also specifically stated that I have seen people having issues with e-ons pricing and I didn't disagree at all. Please take more time in reading my posts if you feel I was flaming you, I was not.

OK thanks, it really sounded like that to me. But I was wrong.

There is a couple of answers and whole are very simple: - first think on the concept of your scene - don't spent less than 2-3 hours on this process (1 day of sketching would be appreciated) (or even more if you can afford) - Then when you have the idea, identify technology needed to complete your picture - Modify your design if there is no technology available to achieve what you planned. - Make a Plan = a list of elements you'll need to complete your scene (models, textures, atmosphere etc...) - Start working on your scene - Render it, check what is wrong (always there is something wrong - there are no perfect scenes ) make a list of all corrections needed, correct them make another render and so on, until the moment when you think that only very minor problems remain - only then publish your scene. THEN IT WILL BE REALLY & TRULY EXCELLENT IF YOU MADE YOUR SCENE IN 15 minutes, DON'T BELIEVE IF SOMEONE TELLS YOU THAT IT IS "~~~ MAGICAL ~~~" ARTISTIC CONCEPT FIRST TECHNOLOGY ONLY TO SUPPORT IT NOT IN OPPOSITE WAY however sometime it is possible to show some example of what can be achieved using a technique - why not - but this too, should be done as properly as possible.

No problem. I do apologize for the misunderstanding :-) I think we all (yes me too) need to lighten up about this. We are all Vue users in one way or another. I dont think we all need to hold hands and sing songs by the camp fire, unless some of you are bringin booze :-) but maybe we all need more understanding. There are a lot of things going for e-on and its users right now. I guess this is all just part of it. No hard feelings towards anyone on my part.

BTW, a bit OT but what the heck, Computer Arts had an article this month on the vagaries of European/North American pricing. Not sure if it's on their website but I guess the fact that an article appeared in the magazine is indication enough it's a hot topic.

Maybe that's we all we need...a little booze ;) LOL Maybe while we are finishing off our bottles, the forum will have returned to a sense of nomalcy :p Of course I'm allowing a couple days to recover from the outrageous hangover LOL

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 16:13

"No hard feelings towards anyone on my part." No hard feelings towards anyone either! Though I've got to comment on one more thing: "You don't want Vue Inf, then fine, continue doing what you're doing. Leave the rest of alone. I know for sure I'll be leaving you alone from this day forward." I really want it, but am not going to get it at all. But to leave the rest of you alone.... I don't totally get that. We're being bombarded by Vue 5 Infinite reports, E-On keeps on sending me emails about it telling me how great it is and how much I need it. We regular Vue users are already being treated as second range citizens. We don't have the real thing. I've already been told numerous times of how much V5I would improve my work flow and so on. I'm not being left alone by V5I users at all, on the contrary, some of them are quite pushy. But I don't mind, I can handle that. Don't you think I'm sad that I can afford Infitite because E-On decided to charge me so much for? I'm not asking you to leave me alone and you shouldn't ask that of me either. I have to put of with you and you have to put of with me too. That's what public forums are all about. I'm entitled an opinion as much as you are. But so many people around here really act like they own this forum. As soon as something happens or is being said they don't like they start attacking. That is so wrong..... All I did was being a little bit creative to make the best of the situation I'm in.... I just don't have $900+ laying around somewhere, so I'm making the best of what I do have and I'm very happy with it. I'm very happy for those of you can afford V5I, I wish I could join you all. All I'm asking though please start making great stuff with Vue 5 Infinite! A lot of the stuff being posted just doesn't reflect the greatness of the software at all and that bothers me. So, go Infinite users, make me even more jealous and hope with me that one day I will be able to afford it.....

A lot of mundane stuff is created with all versions of Vue. Most of mine could probably fit in that catagory. There is also a ton of amazing images posted from ALL versions of vue that I could never hope to do. We can have all the fancy toys available to mankind but if you don't work at it, and put thought into it. Along with a splash of god given talent. It will be mundane. I loved vue 4pro 5.. so so. I'm looking forward to my infi. I was lucky and had money when the pre sale was offered. If it was now, I wouldn't be getting it till next year. I really don't think anyone is looking down at anyone with a lesser vue. It's a new toy. New bells and whistles. We want to talk about them. Should we feel guilty for doing so? I was ticked earlier. You might not have said the image was done in vue5I but it was implyed. It wasn't a great image, but I backed you when others slammed it. a wip is a wip. I didn't really care how it was made. It was a cool start. alpha planes or eco system. But I felt I was made a fool of and really dislike that. Now I'm going back and playing with Vue. And think about what I want to do when v5I arrives. Have a good day.

As the prices for "professional" type apps go, V5I is actually on the cheap side.

Check out the prices for Lightwave, Maya, 3DS Max, and so forth.

V5I is far less.

SGI workstations are quite expensive.

Just imagine what masterpieces one could create with such a monster! The renders that one could produce!

Too bad that such workstations are way-y-y-y-y-y-y out of the price range of around 99% of the population.......

"As the prices for "professional" type apps go, V5I is actually on the cheap side."

Professional between brackets is the right term. I still don't think even V5I deserves the title professional, it's lacking way to much in a number of areas. I would label it semi-professional and it has the right price for a semi-professional application..... well if you do live in the US it has. If I would still live over there, I would have even pre-ordered it! Now I can't even order it, it's way out of my reach. Message edited on: 03/19/2005 18:06

Sour grapes are never very appetizing.

Don't like grapes at all ;-)

I would label it semi-professional The professionals over at CGtalk seem to have a different opinion.

Don't like grapes at all ;-) Yes......and most people aren't impressed by the sour variety on display......even those individuals that happen to like other types of grapes.

You know, you can't really judge Infinite by much of the art out there from it; most of it was done by the betatesters, who were doing the damndest to see just where the 'break the app' point was, and what they could do to make it barf rainbows....like they were supposed to do. It will take probably 2 or 3 months to get the package distributed, and people to get far enough along the learning curve before any legitimate comparison or judgement of a feature or feature set can be honestly made.

You know, you can't really judge Infinite by much of the art out there from it; most of it was done by the betatesters, who were doing the damndest to see just where the 'break the app' point was, and what they could do to make it barf rainbows....like they were supposed to do. It will take probably 2 or 3 months to get the package distributed, and people to get far enough along the learning curve before any legitimate comparison or judgement of a feature or feature set can be honestly made.

Awwwwww.......com'on.......

It's no fun waiting until we actually know before we say............

well v5I is easily an "pro" app. pro app when it comes to 3d doesnt mean it needs to be able to do it all ala 3dsmax, lots of pro apps that focuses on a smaller segment that either takes to long to do in the big apps or wont look as good as the more specialized app and thus works as one out of several tools in a studios pipeline. Thats a very common thing and that is how most "pros" work, pros as in ppl that work with media/web/broadcast as a living. V5I easily fits into alot of studios i know of and is therefore in my opinion a true pro app, it does what it should do and it does it in a faster time then the major packages and it can work together with the standard applications the majority of the real studios use. In my opinion tho, ailkema of course doesnt have to agree :) or anyone else either.

aeilkema posted the pic to show off what can be done in V5I (polygon-wise). I don't think he was too concerned with how real the scene looked or what the lighting settings were before pressing the "make fine art" button. The letters "WIP" included in a pic's title prevent migraines from ocurring in others trying to see art where there is none.

In school one group insisted that one must make his/her own paints, another group used the technology of ready made oils, both groups created some good and some bad works. It seems to me that fighting technology is a losers game, using it to advantage and properly is an art.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=915170&Start=1&Artist=aeilkema&ByArtist=Yes

I couldn't do anything filled with people that fast. Me? 4 - 6 hours to arrange.