Well - I'm a bit ill - so I didn't have that much time to test P6 out the way I would like to have it. However ... For me P6 worked so far - as a programm: I like the possibility to detach the tool-bar from the right window. But I have to say that it only worked for me 'cause I'm using 4 Monitors in a square (so I get a resolution of 2560 x 2048). For normal one screen users (don't mean to say those is bad or something like that - I just want to tell in a dry way) this won't help much. Currently my Poser looks like that: http://www.schlabber.org/p6/gui.jpg I also like the partial render (this was a good idea) and the possibility to store several renders inside Poser. The Poser GUI looks more "cleaned up" for me now. But I'm absolutely unhappy with the content (didn't expect much at all - but as there is something included into P6 ... well): I see issues in many ways - especially for the characters. Bad bending and (sorry to say that) the poses included are just plain bad - if I would sell (or even give it freely away) such poses I would get many angry e-mails: Here are some examples from James: http://www.schlabber.org/p6/pp1.jpg http://www.schlabber.org/p6/pp2.jpg look at the fingers ! and in the 2nd image look at his butt (well that's more a figure than a pose issue) I see several texture-issues One example here: http://www.schlabber.org/p6/tp1.jpg look at the neck and the ears - this is just bad ! I don't know if I'm totally off-topic but I would advise the following for further Poser-versions: A possibility to buy Poser without content. The one thing is: I have enough content ! The other, I don't want content like that because I won't use it anyway.

Haven't gotten P6 yet (member of Wait Club), but so far, I'm not too impressed with Jessi and James. Some of the face closeups are nice, but so far, I haven't seen any full-body images that look good. For over 110,000 polys, I would expect a smoother, more natural look.

I'm trying to decide if I should buy any add-ons for James and Jessi. I really like some of the James head morphs available at RDNA. I don't care for the rest of him, though. And the head morphs won't do me much good unless I also get textures, clothes, etc.

why did they decide to change figure structure and go step back? p6 figures are built like p4 people - no buttocks, chest area modified....

I am in the NotBoxedYet club, but I am not thrilled with the models either, very disappointed. HOWEVER...they are working on a content SR, and....most people are posting default images, I suspect not even with the FBM options engaged for various body types. AND....this.....Curious Labs is a tech-oriented company, and these publishers are notorious for not being able to produce spectacular, beautiful results with their own product! No offense CL! So, I am taking a wait and see attitude about Jessi and James, since I don't think any of the great 'interpreters' have had at them yet. I think there are some outrageously fine results still to come over the next month or two. ::::: Opera :::::

I didn't have time to play too much with models and I'm not trying to say that joints are bad or something. But everybody was making human figures following certain rules. And unexpectedly CL decided to change that. Interesting to know the reason.

ilr your comments are interesting. Do you have P6 yet? I have not even seen the body mesh yet. I know it would be asking a lot, but can you take one feature and post an image of the mesh and point out how the philosophy has reverted. ::::: Opera :::::

p6 figures are built like p4 people - no buttocks, chest area modified....

Well, that would explain that Posette-ish/Dork-ish look they have.

But I don't understand why they'd do that. 110,000 polys, but grouped and jointed like Posette? That makes no sense.

Well, looks like I'm in the minority here, but I think James is the best male figure for Poser so far. Of course, I don't care how many morphs it has out of the box, because I can make my own. That said, I think he's much better than M3 or even M2. As for Jessie... I like her shape. She won't replace EJ as my most used female figure any time soon, but the lo-res versions of both Jessie and James have officially replaced how often I'll be using the Millenium figures. They're easier to work with for me, and the jaw is more articulate (moves side to side), which makes facial animation easier and more natural. Overall, I think P6 is a solid upgrade, and well worth it. I still have various workflow issues with UI and the way lights are manipulated, but I didn't expect them to be solved in this release anyway. I'm VERY disappointed in not having network rendering in this version though... that burns my ass. Aside from point lights (which we now have), network rendering was probably one of the most asked-for features.

As always it depends on how you want to use the figures. And as always it's a matter of opinion. There the same counts as for P5 - the models are new, the models are different. So far so good. But as much time pressure as there certainly was - why ruin a good product with bad content or bad content for the included content. Why doing bad poses or bad textures ? Then it would be better to sell the product itself and maybe a content-package afterwards with content that is OK

I really like James... much better than Michael 3 with his stupid shoulders growing out of the neck. I like Jessi... much better than a pinheaded Vicki 3 with ragdoll arms. These figures look like intereting people yet are still generic enough that I think we can shape them. However this is a matter of taste, and we all have different visions of what a body looks like or should be made to do. As for the content? That is a free bonus. Most of the people who buy this application will not be members of these forums. They won't have anything but air to work with if there wasn't some content. If you don't like the content, don't use it. But it is a bonus. We are buying an application. Carolly

I'm not dissing P6. Hey, I love P5, even though I never use the P5 people.

It just seems odd that you'd have figures with 110,000 polys, but jointed so that they don't pose naturally. They look really weird below the neck. The shoulders, the limbs, the butt, as shown in Schlabber's examples. With that many polys, shouldn't they look smoother and pose a little better?

I'm sure I will still be very happy with P6. I'll just keep using my favorites, SP and David. I'm just baffled at why 110,000 poly figures like Jessi and James don't pose better.

Yes, Carolly - you can see it that way ... But especially as they are not members here (or in any other forum) they should expect correct content. I for myself prefer to wait a bit longer and then have something to work with I don't have to modify so heavily or just put the content in the trashbin. Why not selling two packages - the pure programm and the content

I like James, too. Reserving all judgment on Jessi until content SR. AND UNTIL I GET MY BOX! lol. Maxx, as you probably imagine, I am with you on vectoring in on the low-res models. On network render.... There are not enough of us animators pressuring them. Hobbyists think in terms of one CPU, even when their overloaded V3 scenes take 14 hours to render! Any Network render for Poser, because of the hobbyists, would have to be able to execute multi-cpu rendering same frame, to avoid howls of protest. That HAS to be a whole ball of wax beyond 'you do this frame, you do this frame and you do this frame.' Someone has to make a splash with a significant film rendered in Poser, either with the Render Condo idea or just a one cpu grind. Also, we should start making requests for site license. "Why do you need a site license?" "Well, you don't have a network rendering feature, and that is making all the many animators frustrated. So we are rendering different pz3s on multiple CPUs. But it costs $99 to set up each one, and that is not in proportion to your market retail price point,, nor the price of multi-cpu render in Vue, for instance. I calculate that I will need 15 cpus to render my next film in Poser, so give me a price on going from my current four seats to 15." "Geeze, we never realized....." ::::: Opera :::::

Actually, I'd like an option on the installer (or maybe CL can make us a new replacement installer?) I'd like to see an option to install P6, and an additional option to install content or not. I may or may not use the new content, but I would like to install and have a base runtime without anything else in it at all, other then pref settings and system support files.

"Any Network render for Poser, because of the hobbyists, would have to be able to execute multi-cpu rendering same frame, to avoid howls of protest. That HAS to be a whole ball of wax beyond 'you do this frame, you do this frame and you do this frame.'" That's true, however it's not really a big thing. In 3dsmax scanline rendering, for example, the task of network rendering is split up frame-by-frame (as you indicated), with each rendering server working on a single frame at a time. However, mental ray's 'Distributed' rendering can efficiently distribute the rendering calculations for a single image or frame to several machines. Using multiple computers over a network, the rendering of a single image is split up socket-by-socket, with each rendering computer working on a single socket at a time. I think Bryce has this kind of function for still images as well with it's "Lightning" addon, and I'm sure most applications do, so I don't think this would be an issue as to why they haven't integrated it yet.

"But it is a bonus. We are buying an application." I agree. I've spent upwards of $9,000 on 3dsmax over the years (if you include the upgrades and plugins), and they never gave me a fully rigged and articulate character to use in Character Studio. Woe is me. ;-)

I feel your pain on the network rendering, and Operaguy...I'm working on the splash ;) Gonna take some time though. Got about 1/2 hour done thus far...looks great so far though. I'm really sad that with each new version, poser's rendering abilities seem to keep getting slower and slower. Granted, the new options are nice, and look great in a single pic. But the original P4 rendering engine should still be able to churn stuff out faster than ever, IMHO. I think there should be a series of checkboxes in the preferences, so that you can turn off/on certain features in Poser that you rarely/don't use, so that these features never even boot up with the program, allowing your computer to devote more system resources to the stuff you DO use...or at the very least, allow you to use more system resources through network rendering ;-) I know, I for one, would more than likely turn off dynamic hair, the setup room, and at times the dynamic cloth room (depending on the scene). Looks like face room is a little more integrated in 6...so that might be a hard one to turn off. I'd be curious to see how much that would speed up rendering. It might be kind of cool to turn everything on when setting up a scene/render...and then save your file, and turn off all the extras, then reboot Poser and have it just set up for optimal rendering. (I imagine if you used something like dynamic cloth - that room would still have to be open in order to do the render...but still.) Again, it's just a thought.

It would be nice if we could delete all the content that come with Poser or won't have to install it all - no matter if P4, PPP, P5 or P6. I have all the shebang in the P5 runtime and don't use it except sometimes one of your poses that I modify to use with other dollies. And I agree, the poses look awfully bad - not to compare with those you've made for P5.

"I'm just baffled at why 110,000 poly figures like Jessi and James don't pose better." Because it has less to do with polygon count and more to do with how well (or not so well) the joints are set up. And not necessarily how many joints either, just tweaking the existing joints as well as can be done. I don't think this was done here. How can you make such nicely built figures and then have the toes not bend right - or parts of the fingers? How was this overlooked? I'm not trying to be hard here at all... I feel they have a great deal of potential. I've helped rig several figures and this is something I wouldn't miss seeing. I hope the content release-fix addresses this. If not, I will be more than happy to touch up the jps and offer it free to the community. However, I didn't get this program for the content but I would like to see these figures work properly and it can be done.

sbertram, are you saying the P4 engine has slowed down? I have not seen that, it seems to do the same job in P5 as in P4 (can't speak for P6 yet, and I don't think anyone can, yet, until the SR comes out adjusting some memory management problem that has been discovered). as to "each new version, poser's rendering abilities seem to keep getting slower and slower." I don't think this is true. FireFly has more quality options, and when engaged, they require more time. That is NOT a slowdown IMHO. as to "the original P4 rendering engine should still be able to churn stuff out faster than ever, IMHO." Why do you think that is possible? Perhaps in Poser4 they already got the engine to do all it could....that it is at the top of it's game. What could they do, subsequently, to make it go faster? I think the answer to making the P4 engine render faster is to upgrade hardware. It gets cheaper and cheaper and cheaper every year, and they seem to not be running into any significant walls, as I am suggesting might be true for the guts of the P4 render engine itself. ::::: Opera :::::

I think there should be a series of checkboxes in the preferences ROFL Now I know I need new glasses. When I first read through this I thought it said "series of cheekbones." ROFL For what it's worth, I have used some millenium poses on Jessi, and for the most part they seem to work quite well. The poses that come with Danie and Marforno's stuff work very well.

Netherworks That is both a splendid offer and your tone is a refreshing combination of confronting the truth and not going into attack mode. You are right, a splendid, highly articulated mesh deserves great joints! I have been led to understand that the issue with the shoulders on the unimesh, on Judy-EJ and now with Jessi, is an intrinsic issue with Poser's joint SYSTEM itself, and that one should not expect a better result, that it is a compromise between natural appearance and range of motion, supposedly you can't have both in the Poser system, harsh compromise is required and usually range of motion wins, resulting in the bulging mesh at the shoulder and the inward curving arm. Can you speak to that? ::::: Opera :::::

Because it has less to do with polygon count and more to do with how well (or not so well) the joints are set up. Yeah. It just seems to me that if you're going to have that many polys, you might as well make use of them. Why does Jessi have a solid chest? Why no buttocks? Maybe more isn't always better, but I seriously doubt that Jessi will ever pose well with that chest. (James' is different, which is weird.)

If Jessi and James turn out to be another flop like Don and Judy......big deal. It won't bother me. I've still got the mil figures to work with. And DAZ has indicated that they have more to come. Like Victoria 3 Pro. But I'll wait until I've had a chance to personally look over the default P6 characters before making any judgements about them.

they say a camel is a horse built by a comittee. I BET the person who did James is NOT the person, or comittee, who rigged Jessi. I can almost bet this is a problem that will get solved. ::::: Opera :::::

I agree with that Opera. It may be possible depending on how the limbs are cut to use ERC to take some of that bulge out. I had this going with Stephanie Petite and it looked really good. But I have somehow lost that file. I reorganized and it's somewhere now. I'll have to dig it up. I couldn't fix that leg-forward thing where the buttocks pinch in the front though. With how the Jessi limbs are cut I do think they did a good job with the shoulders, considering the points you've brought up. Let me play a little bit ;)

I'm strongly of the opinion that they should have made the shoulders denser with Jessi (regular resolution). But with the smoothing - it works.

Hey Operaguy, Yeah, I'm in the "waiting for my box" club on Poser 6, so I'm going off a thread I read ealier, based on Jim Burton's render test .pz3 as far as P6's alleged rendering slow down. I DO notice a distinct difference in rendering times between P5 and P4 though, even when I'm just using the P4 rendering engine. That's one of the main reasons I still haven't uninstalled Poser4 from my computer. I use both programs, depending on my needs. I also upgrade my system regularly...just bit the bullet and installed 2.5 gigs of ram :D...that always speeds things up! I agree, more rendering options do not equal a slowdown. I've got no complaints with the firefly rendering engine...it is it's own thing. I'm just referring to the slow-down that I've noticed with the P4 rendering engine between P4 and P5 on my pc...I'm hoping that I may have misread the earlier post about the speed of P6 in comparison. I probably shouldn't spread the word on something I have no first-hand knowledge of, anyway. My apologies. As far as the P4 renderer's ability to churn stuff out faster than ever, I just meant that I wouldn't expect it to get slower...which it does for me. Glad it doesn't for you :D Maybe I should check to make sure I have the latest service pack installed. I would just imagine that over time, perhaps small tweaks could make the rendering engine more efficient. Maybe they DID perfect it in P4...but like I said: I can open the same animation file and render it in P4 and then open it and render the same animation in P5 and it will always take longer. I'm hoping this is not the case in P6...maybe someone can do a test for me? That'll be one of the first things I do once I get P6 installed. Sorry, don't mean to knock Poser. I love the program, use it every day. Hoping for the best from P6. I was just commenting on something I thought could help to improve workflow.

I'm forced to conclude that, given the choice between doubling the polygons and fixing the JPs, they chose the easy route. But it implies they're still a few years behind the curve, since the trend in most 3D modelling software is to cut down on figure polygons and provide for more realism in other ways that are less CPU-intensive. Perhaps this means Poser 7 (2007) will have 200,000-polygon figures, but will still use Poser 3 (1997) JPs.

Victoria 3 Pro? Do I even want to know?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2165790

Yes....that came up in a DAZ-bash thread concerning the Lilin tempest in a teapot (See post #138 in the referenced thread).

Dan Farr himself (the president of DAZ) mentioned that they are currently working on a "Victoria 3 Pro" model. They are scanning a series of live models with various body types to incorporate into the new figure.

Actually, the idea sounds rather intriguing. Message edited on: 03/23/2005 13:17

Much better already Netherworks IMO. This is great. Hey, if you fix their mess, please be sure to send them the bill for at least $10,000 ::::: Opera :::::

sbertram, LOL Redno ate my homework! I was posting to you and got the error, I swear I am not making it up, "Your SQL has disappeared." Lots of Renderosity server blips today with everyone logging on....anyway: I hope my post to you was not too harsh, that was not my intention. I agree with you: P4 engine should NOT slow down with these upgrades. Your comparison of the engine between Poser4 and Poser5 seems more rigorous than mine, I am going to test it specifically as soon as I can find time; I still have Poser 4 installed. Meanwhile, I don't think a Poser6 run of the P4 engine makes any sense right now because of the memeory clog problem they are working on. ::::: Opera :::::

When I buy Poser, everything that comes with it is part of a package I paid for. That includes Jesse and James. Again, I'm totally amazed that anyone would try to tell us what we can complain about.

"But it implies they're still a few years behind the curve, since the trend in most 3D modelling software is to cut down on figure polygons and provide for more realism in other ways that are less CPU-intensive."

Hmmm, sounds good to me.
I really prefer my girls lightweight and flexible: ;-)

(NEAena with LinLin JP.)

I said it before: My "dream mesh" would weigh maybe between Posette and V2", but have multiple abdomen, chests and buttocks for realistic posing.

BTW, its funny:

When folks were saying that Poser6 would be just a glorified SR, the cheerleaders insisted that "Its all about the content".
Now that the content lacks a bit, its "All about the programm". LOL.

Personally I fear both Jessy and James will share Don and Judys fate.
While I do like Jessys face, I doubt she can beat V3.
(Most folks never use face morphs, so the default look IS important)
James looks even better to me, but without much content he will be of no great use.
(Hmm, maybe he would be more usefull if one would Frankestein his head on M2 or M3s body. LOL)

stahlratte

Intriguing, except that you can usually add a zero or two at the end of the price of anything that has "Pro" in the title. Or will Victoria 3 Pro be sorta like V2 was to V1, same mesh, extra morphs?

And will she run well in Poser 6, or will you need D|S's weighted rigging to get the most out of her?

No worries, Operaguy. I didn't take it personally. I've learned that tone is often a hard translation on the internet. I must have missed something though. I haven't read about memory problems with P6. Anyway, I apologize for getting so far off-topic. Yeah, server's been squirelly today. Lot's of activity, I can only imagine. Netherworks, could this way of using ERC compensation be used with other joints as well?

And will she run well in Poser 6, or will you need D|S's weighted rigging to get the most out of her? I strongly suspect that she will run just fine in P6.......I have faith that the DAZ business people are a little too smart to put the kabash on around 95% or so of their market........

Eh, I never said it was "all about the content." I've never used the P5 content, so why would I expect P6 to be "all about the content"? We didn't even know there was going to be any, really, when we ordered. Bug fixes and stability tweaks would be reason enough to upgrade for me, given the price. I fully expected to continue using the DAZ figures.

But I do like those how James looks in some of the renders at RDNA. I like his face. I don't like the rest of him.

Still trying to decide if I want to buy that morph pack...

sbertram, surely can :) V3 already has a good bit of it (collars, elbows, knees I think) but why they never did it on other problem areas, I don't know. Migal did a ton of it with Stephanie MAX and in fact he made it injectable. I think that's the smart way to do it. That way you don't need to put it into conforming clothes.

I feel sorry for anyone creating content for J&J. Some of us will definitely be reslicing them ASAP. This will most certainly render said content less than usable. They are very well modelled, so I want to use them, but will not if they are rigged like Poser 4 people (what were the folks at CL thinking?). concentrates more intensely to make box/truck move faster

When folks were saying that Poser6 would be just a glorified SR, the cheerleaders insisted that "Its all about the content".

Huh? What "cheerleader" ever made such a statement?

If they did, then they need to turn in their cheerleading credentials, and look for a new line of work........due to the fact that the statement is based upon accepting a false/unknowable premise.

The dubious premise that P6 was "a glorified SR".

Any "cheerleader" worth his/her salt wouldn't buy into the underlying assumption.

Now that the content lacks a bit, its "All about the programm". LOL.

Who's saying this? I haven't seen anyone make such a blanket assertion.

Nor have I seen anyone totally buy into the underlying premise of this statement. I.E. - the premise that everyone's bought into the idea that the content "lacks a bit". Some people don't seem to think so.........

stahlratte, how do you get LinLin JP for nea? What is the poly count? Could you do another render, showing arms and shoulders more obviously with regard to the 'bulge' problem that concerns us? ::::: Opera :::::

@:Opera Narcissus added a Pose set to the NEA package that includes LinLin JPs. (Bottom, Top, or complete body) Poylycount is the about the same as original Posette. (Only the teeth and lacrimals add a few extra polys. Body is the same, just smoothed) Render is on the way. stahlratte

Personally I fear both Jessy and James will share Don and Judys fate. Could very easily be true. Won't bother me any if it is. While I do like Jessys face, I doubt she can beat V3. We agree here, too. In any case -- V3's depth of control on the market would be really, really tough to break.

Heres a comparision NEAena with LinLin JP vs default Posette:

Dont think that the bulge area is much affected by the new JPs. The improvement is mainly in the ellbow area.
(Also the knees are MUCH better)

OTOH even default Posettes shoulders dont look to me THAT much worse than Jessies with netherworks ERCs added. ;-)

stahlratte

this is a worthy model, especially if there is a decent set of facial expression morphs already pre-made. Thanks for posting the images. ::::: Opera :::::

'Intriguing, except that you can usually add a zero or two at the end of the price of anything that has "Pro" in the title' I have a feeling there's a logic behind the name 'Victoria 3 Pro'. Namely that DAZ are building a figure which is new and hopefully better, but will maintain compatibility with all the V3 clothing. So calling her Victoria 4 would probably scare off a lot of people. I'm with garee on the 'Install Content' option. That's a great idea. After install, the first thing I do is dump all the content. I have very little use for humans, much less animals and robots. I realise I'm not a typical poser user, of course. mac

I have very little use for humans, much less animals and robots. Just curious -- once you dump animals, humans and robots out of Poser, then what's left to pose?

Architectural? Scenery? Props? For the money, Poser actually has a really decent materials editor and renderer.