copied from the Yahoo list: We are going to have a special chatroom event with Eovia.
Eovia has been busy releasing new products. Come join the Eovia team
in this special event.
Open topic forum on therecent releases (Amapi Pro 7.5, VectorStyle 2,
TransPoser 2)....and we will talk about the NEW MODELER from Eovia.

Chatroom at EFnet channel #carrara
Thursday morning at 8 am Pacific time.

Ringo Monfort

wayne k

Message edited on: 04/06/2005 17:14

Those chats always turn out being: "Will the new version finally included blah blah?" "We haven't decided yet." "How much will it cost?" "We don't know yet." "What new features will there be?" "We can't say anything yet about them until the release date is announced." And so on.

Yeah... but you get their 'charming' personality in real-time. ;)

Don't forget to bring the party mix. Ringo

Don't forget to bring the party mix. > >Ringo I agree with you and Shonner. If your attending either your drunk or planning on getting there.

Info, the eovia people are in there right now. Including Bob, now would be a good time to let them know what you think of the direction they are taking the company. wayne k guam usa

Are there any transcripts of the chat available?

there will be but it is going on right now whk

A few cuts from the chat session, should make more sense when you can read the whole log. We will shortly be introducing a new modeler that will be called Eovia Hexagon it's a Polgonal modeler, combining best things from Polygonal Subdivision AND surface modeling expected release date is in the next 60 days Price will be less than the current Designer pricing http://server2.eovia.com/demos/hexagon/hexagon_layout.mov http://server2.eovia.com/demos/hexagon/hexagon_4tools.mov http://server2.eovia.com/demos/hexagon/hegagon_spaceship.mov http://server2.eovia.com/demos/hexagon/wolf_lightmaps.jpg wayne k guam usa

I look forward to reading the transcript. Hexagon(??) looks like an interesting modeler but it would be a lot MORE interesting if it were going to be integrated into Carrara and it had nurbs capability. If I am going to shell out more money on extra programs why wouldn't I stick with a proven modeler like Rhino or Zbrush? I would certainly like to hear some reports from the beta testers first.. and see a demo.

Attached Link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Carrara/files/Eovia%20Chatevent%20040705.txt

Looking at the previews, it reminds me a lot of Silo. martin

I'll wait for the 2.0 version since I have Zbrush already for that kind of modeling.

Just bought Modo a couple of days ago myself.

After having read through much of the transcript I must confess I was singularly unimpressed with the recent chat. This was simply a PR event by Eovia For Eovia. They were there to try to sell us yet another product. And a dubious one at that. Were they there to get user input on their product line or software performance? It certainly doesn't seem so from the transcript. So instead of getting some issues with Carrara resolved we will instead be given the opportunity to spend our money to beta test another piece of software from the people who took 7 versions to get Amapi working.

The announcement before the chat event clearly stated what it was going to cover. New products from Eovia, Vector Style2, Transposer 2 and "something new" a new modeler. I was the one that setup the chatevent. That is what they cover in the chatroom and you can also read about some of the request from the users regarding Carrara. Eovia did answer them. Eovia continues to resolve issue regarding Carrara. Later Ringo

I'm sorry I misunderstood since you started this thread with the topic "Your chance to tell Eovia what you really think....& ask questions too." I stand corrected.

lol. Always complaining.

My turn. First, I started this thread, not Ringo. Some might think we are one in the same (no one has ever seen both of us in the same room at the same time), but we are not, Ringo is better looking. Sailor_ed, you are right that Eovia was there to get some buzz going on their new modeler. Marketing is a valid part of any good business plan. Bad marketing can kill a good product just as fast as bad code. It was not the only reason they were there. The head of Carrara development, Charles B. was there and he is not part of the European Amapi-Hexagon development team. That chat session was during his work hours (8am west coast time) - they have only 5 people on the C dev team (its in the chat log). Charles writes code, so to have him sitting there for almost 2 hours not writing code must have cost them something. In a small company with limited resources time is the most valuable asset and there is never enough of it. The invitation to tell "Eovia what you really think" was to to tell them face to face in live chat, not here in this forum. That chat session was very lightly moderated - no pre-screening of any of the questions. Anyone who showed up could ask anything they wanted to Eovia. They put some structure into the chat to cover one topic at a time and did not give out any info on Carrara 5. One guy did get kicked & banned after Thomas asked him to slow down and wait until other questions were answered. I don't see the logic in blaming Eovia for not answering questions that did not get asked. They put the resources out there, if no one stepped up and asked the things you wanted answered is that their fault? I put Ringo's yahoo post up here to see if anyone on this forum who has real issues with Eovia would log in and try to hold their feet to the fire. I got my answer. I don't know how many other companies put their sales and development teams on the spot, live, in an effort to interact with their users but I don't see it as a negative thing at all. If it was going to be all PR they only needed Bob Shawn's post before the chat implied that it would be a waste of time with no real info coming out of it. While it was not as good as Rhino's open beta we did get a look at the gui, some of the new tools in action, a timeframe for release, and a very rough price range. That's more pre-release info than I have seen on anything coming out of Eovia before. Shonner maybe they are trying to do a better job with communication. wayne k guam usa

You're correct, I confused you and Ringo and I apologize to you both. (I won't say who's better looking!:-) I still don't believe that the chat would have been the place to get any issues aired. Certainly they have the right (and the neccesity) to promote their new modeler. My contention is only that they are not listening to their user base, if they were we would have heard about it on this forum. But we disagree.. that's fine by me and I hope it is ok with you also.

I find it odd that Eovia wanted (or was expecting) to be asked questions about VectorStyle 2 and Transposer 2 when everyone visiting the chat room was either a Kool-Ade drinker already or someone extremely interested in the new modeler they heard was being tested. I would have liked to have seen a morphing session using it rather than a session showing how to display/hide property and control panels surrounding the work area and simple extrusions we can already do in Amapi 7.

Modo has simple movies showing its stuff. Eovia was not prepared for their presentation. Simple stuff like edge looping and edge spinning wasn't mentioned. I understand US Eovia has nothing to do with France Eovia (where the new modeler comes from) as far as software programming, training, marketing, selling, customer support, product research, 3D shows/events, etc. Oh, that explains it then.

Message edited on: 04/08/2005 20:20

Shonner,

Were you there? Did you ask about edge looping while there? Did you ask about edge spinning? If you weren't there, then you don't have anything to complain about. If you were unable to make it then I understand, but if you simply chose not to be involved, then not having your questions answered is not Eovia's fault, you can't expect Eovia to answer questions that aren't asked. They demonstrated the interface, some simple modeling, and some of the dynamic geometry. And four videos showing basic functions is better then they've had before. I expect they will discuss more as it gets closer to release date. I'm more impressed with how Eovia has been lately. Seems they are communicating better. What with a support site in the works, this chat session, and how active Bob etc are on the list things are looking up. Its funny how people can turn a nice open discussion with the actual developers of the software into a big disappointment and a whining session. Brian

Message edited on: 04/08/2005 20:32

You're more impressed with how Eovia has been lately? I'll be impressed when they fix the Amapi 7 bugs that they've know about for over a year.

lol. Always complaining. > Nicholas86 Last thread you said the same thing about me. Hummmm...

I was at work, Nicholas86, so I can pay to use software that I expect to work. I don't pay them so I can cut out of work and chat online with them about fluff and other programs they want me to buy that do not address the existing problems. But you think it's funny. That's your character. That's your role. To think happy thoughts all the time and be intolerant of people who see the reality of things.

No, I just hate people who flood forums with complaints and rants. Thats why you email support. Complaining once or twice on the forums about an issue and seeking a work around or a solution is fine, but really there are a few members that just are constantly complaining. When I have issues that seem to be bugs, or problems I email support. 80-90% of the time I see the issue I reported fixed in a patch or the following version. Or support gives me a simple workaround. Virtually every release of Carrara, and Amapi has had features and fixes that people have requested and reported. I know this from beta testing that they focus on fixing issues as well as adding features. I also know there are issues that have existed for quite awhile, since I've used Carrara since version 1 (metacreations) and Amapi since version 5. But constantly complaining about them does nothing. I'd suggest reporting the bugs/issues to eovia, and do it repeatedly. I'm far from happy with everything about Eovia, Carrara, Amapi, etc., its just the constant complaints about the same issues by the same people that I find irritating. I know you are a talented artist Shonner and I'd hate for you not to speak up about things, but I just don't think its necessary to always bring up negative discussion when something positive is being brought up. And the chat session was a good discussion. Personally I would have liked to hear more information about things, but its nice that something like that happened at all. This is an issue that I think the moderators need to discuss that I notice is happening throughout the Renderosity forums. A topic is brought up and questions are asked, and people respond with complaints and comments on don't use such and such software it sucks, when really they should be helping the person with the issue. Anyway, happy rendering. Brian

"I'd suggest reporting the bugs/issues to eovia, and do it repeatedly. I'm far from happy with everything about Eovia, Carrara, Amapi, etc." Ok, now you're starting to sound like a real person. I do email Eovia and I do get ignored. So I email them again. But still I keep seeing the same bugs carried over to the next patch. So of course you are going to run into people who are complaining. Other people like you discount us and tell Eovia they're doing a great job. Then they start working for Eovia as a filter and they only pass on happy emails to Eovia (i.e. Totyo). I'm just waiting for the next CEO or company to give Carrara/Amapi a new direction with customer support. This is a subject we can agree to disagree on.

Sailor_ed, Thanks for replying, it seems that we can go point - counter point without stooping to name calling. It's refreshing and I appreciate it. I think they call this "discussion". later wayne k guam usa

Shonner,
good point on having to go to work instead of chatting

You had time to post this before the chat:

Those chats always turn out being:

"Will the new version finally included blah blah?"

"We haven't decided yet."

"How much will it cost?"

"We don't know yet."

"What new features will there be?"

"We can't say anything yet about them until the release date is announced."

And so on.

If you were aiming at being clever, why didn't you post something like this instead:

"I have to work and can't make the chat, I dare you to ask Eovia these questions:

1. Why haven't you fixed x-bug?
2. Why is the upgrade price so high?
3. Why does this not work
   ........ or something to that effect.

If you had thrown the gauntlet down and no one picked it up, your "Happy, Happy Eovia Cheerleader" theory would have had some strong proof to back it up.
If someone had asked your questions for you, you would have had your answers or non-answers from Eovia to talk about.

Monday morning quarterbacking is a lot easier than strapping on the cleats and waiting for the start whistle to blow.

wayne k
guam usa

Message edited on: 04/09/2005 02:33

Good point wayne. And something I hope people will consider, and should be posted. Next time if people can't make it, but want to know specific things then post it and we can ask. Nice idea. I for one have noticed better communication from Eovia since the new CEO. As well as better marketing and a better focus from Eovia. Rather then the seeming randomness that existed prior. They seem to be focused on improving Carrara, and there product line. For example look at Vectorstyle. They released version 2 which is a complete rewrite by Eovia, so they no longer are relying on an outside source. And it now includes a lot of the features that were desired. And the upgrade price is reasonable I think too. I'm a mostly satisfied customer there are things in Amapi I don't like, mostly workflow things, so I'm happy to see Hex. I take the bad with the good, and to me you can't beat Carrara's speed with rendering and scene setup. Brian

I figured I would get banned from the chat room the minute I joined in if I had the chance since my emails are ignored by Eovia. Eovia has visited my site quite a few times since August and have seen all the reproduceable bugs I had collected for display. But their lack of response indicates that they have newer programs to code and consider CP4 and AP75 legacy software. My friends belong to the silent majority that think that Eovia must be already listening to the true believers who are buddies with the Eovia staff, so they don't have to mention the problems that Eovia must already know of. I've been banned from Amapi.net and other Eovia groups. But I still keep in touch with people that need work-arounds for software that isn't being fixed.

Its odd your emails are ignored by Eovia. Are you getting the automated response back? Its possible the emails might be getting blocked by your email software. Everytime I email support I get an automated response back, and then in a day or two a response be it a solution or a question. I don't have many problems with CP4. What issues are you having? Curious about AP75, though I don't use Amapi Pro, what issues is it having? I have difficulty comprehending problems people have as I experience so few myself. I've gotten the glitches with the video card, which I've fixed with driver upgrades. And the occasional crash for unknown reasons. But nothing too unreasonable. Animation needs work in Carrara still, and things like particles and metaballs need to be improved. But otherwise Carrara seems stable and a powerful package. Its sad you get banned. As much as I may disagree with you, in what you say. Because I do see things getting fixed. I don't see your posts as ever being ban worthy. Brian

I have no problem with CP4. It is very stable and if something bad happens, it's usually just me goofing around (like replicating 8 billion polys or something in a scene) and Windows XP forgives me.

It is AP75 that has the nightmares. My email is not blocked on my end. I do get the automated email reply from US Eovia. But they don't support Amapi. And I've burned my bridge with France Eovia after a year and a half of dealing with them. I tell people not to mention my name or my site to France Eovia when reporting a bug so their emails won't get deleted. I have taken the Amapi bug watch-list off my site because it just reminds them of me and they don't want to fix any bugs that were mentioned on my site.

I think software bugs should be fixed regardless of who discovers/reports them.

Message edited on: 04/09/2005 04:03

May I suggest that some of us feel that if Eovia were really interested in their user base they would come to us. Their user base would not have to go to them. (They used to come to this forum but I have not seen a non publicity comment from them in the last 6 months.) Now maybe this is an unrealistic expectation and maybe its tilting at windmills but having filled out questionaires from several software companies and browsed many other forums I don't think it neccesarily so. Sorry, gotta go take some more Prozac..;-)

Hey Shonner, I don't know you (yet) but I lurk around and read your posts. I'm like one of those liberal democrats: flippity-floppity. Some days I'm a cheerleader (when Carrara does what I want), and somedays I'm a slag (when Carrara crashes/burns or my day's work has dragged me back and forth over one of its stoopidist bugs that is NOT a design flaw -- it's a BUG so fix it already!).... Anyways, these chat things are a sloppy mess (design flaw, not a bug), and this one did seem like a sneak-peak at something expensive (probably because I'm not shopping for a new modeller)..., but I was at the LAST chat and I remembered to ask questions that had come up recently in lists, like 3 or 4 questions that weren't my own.... Long story short, Bob did acknowledge me and tried to answer them in real ways. Sometimes the answer was "I don't know, I'll have to ask a programer" or "not in this version", but if those are the answers what else can they say? Bob did get back to me on the answers from the programer too after a couple of days so really there was honest effort there.... It earned my respect. You guys have a great idea to make these chats work FOR us, and not just to unofficially buzz new eovia products -- although that is cool too. They get to show what they are working on, and we are prepared with some issues that need to be addressed. It's win/win. We should review bug lists and feature requests (they are all posted online) and actually ask questions rather than try to be witty/clever. BUT obviously it shouldn't be an inquisition (and there was one guy who got bumped from this chat because he was just 'tarded and using all caps and incomplete sentances and not waiting his turn and couldn't even bother to login as anything better than GUEST### -- I mean who wouldn't be bumped for that?! idjit...). I can't help you with your Eovia paranoia, but if you have real questions (one's that make sense to me) I'll definitely ask them in the next chat -- assuming I'm there.... I'm sure that's an open invitation to everybody to post questions beforehand and then people in the chat can easily ask. It's a good idea.

Well said hdaggers. I think thats one of the most level headed posts I've seen here. Brian

Enough. -Kix