A while back I sent an IM to CLSteve and pointed out to him a thread hotly discussing the inability to get a great character in Poser because of limits to the standard Poser Rig. In my opinion, the subject boiled up because not only are the new Poser6 figures subject to the typical shoulder/arm bulge problems (a great dissapointment) and other problems, but the Daz Unimesh characters are also fully subject to it, and Daz says their future plans WILL continue to revolve around the Unimesh. I was told that personally by Dan Farr on the phone. Steve from Curious Labs answered me today as follows: ------------------------------------------- Instant Message from clsteve: Yes, I read that and many others. If you would like to send me a spec on how you think they should be rigged I would be happy to review it and take any suggestions into consideration. Thanks, Steve ------------------------------------------- Perhaps he is saying "just tell me how to do the impossible and of course we will put it in place" or perhaps this is a genuine request for a serious spec. Is there such a thing as boiling up a spec for an ideal Poser Rig? Or...perhaps Curious Labs is already doing everything possible within the scope of the source code and anything we would ask for is not feasible. ::::: Opera :::::

It could be that they are looking ahead to Poser 7 and ways to improve the current rigging. It can't hurt to give input, right? 8-)

New source code :)

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 21:46

Add an additional back and shoulder joint. For a basic rig, within the current structure, it would solve the specific problem. And since everyone wants basic rigs instead of the more developed ones that should and could be used, it solves the essential problem. Easy? No. Would it piss off clothing makers? Yes -- but no more so than the ERC morphs in the mil figures. In the most ideal of worlds, they would create a new rigging system that avoids the complexities of the weight mapped system and the imprecision of the bone system, while blending the musclularity approach of the weight mapped methodology with the simplicity of the bone based system. In either case of that ideal, however, it would essentially destroy the market for accessories as it now stands, and would further the split in applications thereby.

Spec? SPEC!!!? ;0)

Well, all he need do is look at the five hundred modern rigging systems available (Animation Master, Cinema 4D, LightWave3D, Maya (!), 3DSMax, XSI, ...). While Poser's rigging system has hardly budged, these other systems are now using hard and soft IK, soft body dynamics, up-vectors, animation controllers and interface systems, blended weighting, muscle systems, etc. and so forth.

It is not just a matter of adding bones, but I do agree that a full spinal system and extra bones at critical areas would help. :)

Part of the problem lies in the archaic deformation system. Cactus Dan (plug) has just released an excellent Cinema4D plugin called CD Morph which has some great features, not the least of which is allowing bones (using individual axes) to control these morphs. Can you say "muscle system"? :) Incidentally, I provided the base code to get this plugin going (I take no credit for the bone-control whatsoever, though. That was all him.).

The key is in the deformations. Drop the twist/angles/sphericalzones. Use real weighting!

ETA: Also, drop the archaic default pose. The current professional methodology is have the arms down at 45d. This reduces the bad deformations on arms from at-the-side to straight-out-horizontal - where the least deformation occurs naturally. Extreme poses are those with the arm raised above the horizontal and there should be something that doesn't kick in until these angles are achieved (maybe an extra buldge or weight set is calculated in?).

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 23:22

Aaaaaargh!!! Now they ask. Why didn't they ask before they released Poser 6, and I would have told them. Aaaaargh!!!!!!

The super-posable action figures are capable of a lot of body language despite being made of hard plastic. 2 joints at the knee and 2 at the elbow help immensely. We humans do have kneecaps! If there was an extra joint in the shoulder area, perhaps we could get away from the balloons? I would also urge that the breasts go back with the chest rather than the collars. They were attached to the collars so that they would rise as an arm rises, but nobody makes morphs like that for them anyway (and we don't have morphs for them to move to the side, either). With more bones, the ones we use wouldn't have to move as far and could be deformed less. Ideally? There should be a neck and upper neck, another one between abdomen and chest (so that the whole spine can twist nicely), and extras at buttocks, shoulders, knees, and elbows. That would be 10 additional bones to help carry the mesh. Carolly

I don't think bones will help because of the falloff zones. When you twist the head, you are twisting the upper neck, when you twist the upper neck, you are twisting the upper neck and neck, when you twist the neck, the you twisting the neck. I think the same thing will happen with more bones elsewhere, you will create overlapping falloff zones that are acually moving the same parts of the mesh but using more groups.

How does "weighting" differ from the current joint setup? I have often thought that the current setup would benefit greatly from the addition of a spherical "exclusion zone" for each joint. I'd like to think something like that might help fix some of the worst bending ugliness. But I have no idea what I'm suggesting, really.... So it is hardly a "spec"....

The current joint setup just throws a region around the geometry with falloff within the region. This is the old way of weighting bones - most 3D systems with rigging capabilities have moved on. It is not very exact and requires that one be careful with region placement. Poser avoids some of this by only weighting the body part and parent with the body part's region (as specified in the Joint Editor). Weighting using vertex maps is a newer system (and there are systems beyond this one, but it should suffice). Using vertex maps, one can set weights point-by-point or polygon-by-polygon to exact precision. No worry about regions intersecting unwanted polygons. So, why keep adding more and more types of geometric regions when the answer is simple: vertex maps are the wave of the future - ten years ago! ;)

Wraith, Having 2 bending points at the knee would minimize the broken soda straw look. There would still be deformation, but better-controlled. Vertex mapping would be even better, but I don't think we could get it for this version... I might be wrong... CL has popped odd improvements upon us before (like the volumetric lights) just because Larry figured out how to do it and wanted to share. Carolly

I doubt that the changes will apply to the current version, because that would mean that all clothing would have to be redone as well ... including the clothing by third-parties. I think it's more likely that we will see changes for the next version. 8-)

Attached Link: http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Work/PSD/PSD.pdf

Knees and elbows are a must .. yes i know there are other serious problems that you guys who are much more skilled are more concerned with .. and for something like pants and jeans the current system works fine .. but if you ever look ar making armour in real life or for a poser figure (i've done both) the elbow and knee cups don't move with either part of the leg. Having a knee cap or an elbow to parent a prop to .. even if it's really small would be great.

Being able to morph the inner and outer MAT spheres would eb a nice start.

Poser's bone system with the spherical falloff zones is archaic by today's standard,it has to be overhauled. The rigs we have right now for M3-V3 figures are pretty good considering the limitations we have to work with, it's not perfect but it is acceptable for most poses. The people rigging Poser figures have to come up with one rig that is good for any kind of poses, where in reality when producing professionnal animations you will often have several different rigs for the same character depending on the moves you want him to make. Riggers have pushed the enveloppe quite a bit in the last years for Poser stuff, by using all sorts of tricks like joint contolled morphs etc, but now a rethinking of the whole system is in order. As far as clothing, the current system is no picnic, I am leaning more and more towards dynamic clothing it's just easier to setup, and definitely easier to animate with it.

Also being able to animate joints would be nice too

Non-Spherical zones? In the Modo 102 trial release doc videos, they model a spring and morph its compression via a weighted UV map. UV-Vertex maps? What is the best solution out there? Is it a combo of multiple solutions? Just how BACKwards compatible do we want to be? No one says we HAVE to delete the older version of Poser off the Machine. Perhaps versions 7 and 8 are intermediate-transitional versions until a WAAAAAY better version(not so backwards compatible) of Poser arrives. I think this what we really are approaching. Poser is maturing. It's over 10 years old. The new users (newbies sounds so derrogatory now) can use the older (NOW Current) versions to get feet wet. The idea of Poser Artist/Pro Pack is cool. Start with Basic Poser, if you want to step up, upgrade to a more powerful version. Look at the other "PRO" modelling packages. A later version comes out, you have to "upgrade" your models, plug-ins etc. Do we want to do this with Poser? It just dawned on me that we have a interesting type of community here and this is related to another thread where someone noted that the 'open' format of Poser made a lot of the tricks, techniques and the types of users here make Poser what it is. It will be a tricky balancing act where we can preserve legacy while still moving on, be it with models, textures etc. Look at what we have now; Texture converters, clothing (geometry of a sorts) converters and other great utilities to carry on. So I think we should move forward as someone will figure out a way to bring the legacy stuff forward (investing to 'protect' those thousands investments). Of course, we come back to what's the best way to rig the new Poser?

I tend to agree with dlfurman. Would love to see CL leap the product ahead and let the aftermarket create bridging products, have a PoserArtist (current Poser6) as entry level. If that happens, with a new rigging system and a successful dynamic cloth/hair function, and IBL/AO, a price point under $500, etc..... Gee wiz, ya got a competetor for the current higher-level apps. but with this fantastic character gen 'studio' built in and a big user base. ::::: Opera :::::

I am completely a newbie in regards to falloff and joints and the like but I have seen a number of models modelled in the non T format that might allow for better elbows, shoulders and knees within a somewhat similar system. Arms slightly down and turned, elbows slightly bent, knees slightly bent as well (I think) and the paper tube bending is limited (try bending a paper tube and that is basically what you have now with the knees and elbows). But there are other ways around it as well.

I think everyone knows the problem with the current system. What I think most people are forgetting is how (relatively) easy it makes rigging clothing. Currently, I would bet 95% of clothing articles out there use the EXACT SAME rig as figure they are for. Why, because it is easy. Take away the whole "region/falloff" based rigging and the ease in which merchants can create clothing plummets. Currently it is possible to create something in Wings (a free modelling application), import it into Poser and get the clothing rigged in an hour (approx, some people are alot quicker!!!). Make merchants have to paint the weights and that ends the accessibility of the market for most people (whether that is a good or a bad thing for us consumers is different to it being good/bad to CL). There ARE ways to have region/weight based rigging work and work well. Have a look at Project Messiah - it is an INCREDIBLY powerful rigging/animation tool (with a kickass renderer to boot); and more importantly - it uses region/falloff based rigging.

I agree with Eternl Knight. You don't see hundred of Posable figures, animals and glothes ready to go for LW and such. I think expanding the current system is good. Weight mapping is cool, but complicated. You cannot just transfer the same unto clothes. I think Daz Studio converts Poser joints into weight mapping doesn't it? I think if CL added Weight mapping, it would be wise(for legacy purposes) to have a conversion so existing cr'2 for figures and clothes are trranslated. That way people who rig currently can stay with it if they want and people aren't forced into a new arena they might not be ready for yet. So here is my list: 1) Morphable Mat Spheres 1b) Additional Mat spheres per part 1c) Fiber incremental translarion units for joints. 2) Animatable(lib save) joints 3) Alternate weight mappong with legacy conversion/generation. Poser's joint system isn't that horrible. ALot of peopleblam Poser when the truth really is that alot of figure joints just aren't done as well as they could be. With this in mind, a new system isn't going to help those figures if their creators aren't making the most of the current system.

Are you trying to say that the inherent problems with commercial figures (Aiko, Hiro, David, M2/M3, V2/V3, SP3, Don, Judy, Jessi, James, etc., etc., etc.) are because these professionals just aren't doing the joints correctly? 8*O Come'on. Whoya kiddin'? One would think that if it were possible, in these many years, someone would have completely obliterated these problems with a figure that puts the rest to shame in all respects. [Looking around with hand over brows]

Are you trying to say that the inherent problems with commercial figures (Aiko, Hiro, David, M2/M3, V2/V3, SP3, Don, Judy, Jessi, James, etc., etc., etc.) are because these professionals just aren't doing the joints correctly? 8O* No, I'm saying that the current method of rigging figures makes the rigging of third-party content (i.e. clothes) MUCH easier and as such, allows for the large market that Poserdom has. I am willing to put money down on the fact that if a merchant had to paint the joint weights on FOR EVERY item they created - we would lose over half the merchants currently selling stuff in the market place. Now this might be good for quality (as only the more dedicated merchants would create things), but it cuts both ways. We would lose alot of variety and the "appeal" for hobbiest users would drop. I don't think anyone here thinks the "status quo" is good (perhaps "good enough for now", but not "good overall"). What we are saying is that simply replacing the current rigging functionality with a solution that requires "weight painting" will gut the marketplpace as we know it. As I said, take a look at Project Messiah. It uses region-based rigging and it is capable of some VERY good deformations. If CL wants to see how things should be done - they should have a look at that.

Jointing a figure can be a career unto itself. People do the best they can at the time. Think of Uv mapping. You don't blame UV mapper if a model has Seam problems.

No, I'm thinking about the Daz3D company which invested, what, two years or so in developing Victoria3. This was no "best at the time" - shoulders, knees, back same as all other figures (or worse). And there was 0 (zero (nil (zilch (zip)))) dependence upon any pleasing or conforming to any market for clothing. This was a fresh start where Daz controlled all of the variables - except for Poser itself. For that type of investment in time, money, people (they have quite a few), V3 should have been the quintessential Poser figure with no problems to be seen for years to come. The issues existed 'out of the box' as it were. My point is this: if a company with employees and heavy investment can't produce something fully useful - that overcomes these perpetual problems, then who's going to do it? Bill Gates and 50,000 of his employees? Look, I'm not totally disagreeing with EK here, but the same goes for setting up JPs for clothing as it does for weight mapping - except most clothing creators tweak the JPs (or not). There would be no difficulty in transfering weight mapping by proximity to the clothing in some manner. You don't have to recreate all of the JP parameters from scratch for clothes - and there are ways that it wouldn't (or shouldn't) need to be done for weight maps. If I wasn't in the middle of several concurrent plugin projects, I'd take the bet and design a figure using current Poser features that works. But would it be worth it or would it just be another sidelined figure with little community support. If you gentlemen and ladies want to put your money where your keyboard is, why is there no open project with a large group of you creating a figure that tromps on them all? If it is truly possible to create a figure that doesn't have the issues that seem to exist in the other human figures, then what are you waiting for?

Eternl Knight: Can we say Dynamic Clothing? PhilC has a program where you just Paint and Go for Dynamic Clothing. (I'm oversimplifying here but you get the idea). Can we do rigid dynamic clothing? We are at (IMHO) a critical point in Poser developement. Does the program Grow and Mature (Road Sign: You are now leaving Puberty, Population:A lot and growing :) ) At what point do we leave some stuff behind? (If you still have your diskettes you could always reload the Poser 1 male and female).

Is it really neccesary to scrap the old system, though? Pixar has proven you can run multiple rigs and switch between them on the fly. I would think it would be possible to have a legacy system, and a new system existing side by side. That would preserve the investment, and allow those content creators who are interested to make a new rig for a product, and release just that; either as a paid upgrade or a freebie. And more than likely, someone would kludge up a way to use the old system for some things, and a newer system in the problem areas.

kuroyume0161 is making a solid argument. Either a great model can NOT be created within the current Poser, OR everyone who has attempted it is not very accomplished. That's the harsh fact. His pitch about the wide open moment for Daz with (one would have to imagine) great talent on board not producing something insanely great is hard to counter. And EK your fact is correct (the ease of clothing making); there is a market both for the application and the merchants. It is quite possible that market and system would NOT appreciate, welcome or invest in a new, advanced Poser. But...is that the end? We get Firefly, procedural materials, IBL/AO, but the rigging and animation tools are at a final, dead end? I agree with dlfurman...Poser is up against a barrier and without a new rigging system, of which it was pointed out in post 5 above there are many many examples, Poser can't mature. ::::: Opera :::::

Dale, that system/market for the current way with its momentum...it would not be scrapped, nor would it have to be scrapped; it is making money! I see the two coexisting, very much like you just described. Perhaps a different name? ::::: Opera :::::

kuroyume0161 would you start from fresh mesh or would you re-rig Jessi?

Wow, Opera I agree with everything you said. 1. It defies logic that if Poser is capable of rigs magnitudes better than currently available that someone hasn't done so. By extension, I assume that the Poser rigging system is NOT capable of rigs much better than what we already have and needs to be replaced/improved. 2. The merchants of the existing marketplace may not appreciate/support a new rigging system. Look how long it took for P5 features such as the material room and dynamic clothing to make it to the marketplace! As such, CL needs to come up with a rigging system that is easy/non-time-consuming to use on clothing. Any new system that can be ported without fuss to clothing meshes should be fine with most merchants. 3. While there is alot if improvement that can go into the rendering engine, Poser cannot mature without improving the rigging system. Good rendering does not cover crumpled or ballooned shoulder.

I disagree with saying that a great model cannot be produced within the current Poser setup. I have been working on my original figures for eight months now, and I know that it can be done, but it is a lot of work. If you look at simple stuff, like another thread here about Jessi's feet you will see how that has been improved in a short space of time by Jim Burton. The makers of current figures have one major disadvantage: THEY DON'T LISTEN!!!!! How long have we been saying that the "point at" feature for the head doesn't work, because it points out the top of the head, instead of forward. What do we get? 6th generation Poser figures with the same problem, that any Poser user here could fix in a few minutes. The great Poser figure can and will be made. The problem is whether that figure will be accepted by the community if it is not released by DAZ or Curious Labs.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2233758

Attached Link: http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/vids/gallery/Akira_O_TheGlassCage.mov

operaguy, I would have to start with a fresh mesh (or at least with current one that has been altered in a modeling app). Of course, before even starting on such a project, I would educate myself more on the process - especially from the successful modelers/riggers who know their stuff (the ones who work for the studios). :) Helgard makes several good points. There was someone a little while back experimenting with adding bones to the spine for more natural bending. This was a good idea. Someone is working on the Jessi's feet. Why can't we get all of these 'innovations' into one character (or all to follow, if you get my drift)? Currently, we have figures with three spine bones (neck, chest, abdomen) and single-toed feet. Real humans have a fully mobile skeletal structure in their feet, they can even wiggle their toes. ;) Helgard, is there anything from Project Messiah that can be drawn into Poser's rigging to help? (I haven't checked the video yet, but will shortly).

Hey, I know all about this application, Helgard. Look at my first comment - I mentioned Project Messiah back then :) Admittedly the video you point to has the (superior) equivalent to JCM's working for the musculature, but the underlyinig principles are all working just fine and dandy. I've been talking to several users of the application and I am seriously considering laying down the money for it. CL should probably take a look at this as "competition" as, given it's price and sheer animation/rendering power, it is a contender for the hobbiest market too!

There is only one thing that prevents this (a community Poser figure) from happening. Money. I have spent 8 months working on my figures, originally intended as market place items. I dropped work on them when Vicky and Mike where released for free. I am prepared to work on great Poser figure, but before I start I need to know these things: Who will head the project? Will it be free, if not, who decides who gets paid what? If it is free, will it be free for all, and free for redistribution and improvement? Who will host the files, and pay the bandwidth on the downloads? (I have released free models that had 800 downloads in a day, and that costs money) So you see my problem. I do not have the time to head a project like this, nor do I have the resources to pay for all this. Something like this could be brilliant, or it could just lead to a lot of squabling and indecision if the person who heads it is not a strong and dedicated person. I have loads of experiments, rigs, models, research and ideas, and I am willing to share, but not if that knowledge is going to lead to a failed character and the advances will just be snatched up by DAZ or Curious Labs and incorporated into the next junk figure they make.

" There is only one thing that prevents this (a community Poser figure) from happening. Money. I have spent 8 months working on my figures, originally intended as market place items. I dropped work on them when Vicky and Mike where released for free." Not so! check out the new Open Source figures over at Sixus1! Project Human...

Yes. Sixus1 can afford the bandwidth. And Sixus1 have a good team leader/project head. Sixus1 is not a community project, they are a company, and they make money. They may give their figures away for free but they do make money on the add-ons to pay for it. Personally, as much as I like and respect Sixus1 and the fact that they have made their own humans, those models are not advanced enough to beat Vicky or Jessi or James or Mike.

Helgard go there. they are OPEN SOURCE NOW meaning you can take the figures and do what you like with them even make money! yes they are a COMMUNITY PROJECT.

infact : http://projecthuman.sixus1.com/ for the Beta figures and the Licence : http://projecthuman.sixus1.com/OSFL.txt

I'm looking at the project Human figures myself right now, and will (ok, stop your shuddering -- it happens) back up Khai on that. Several of us in the community have come to a greater and less narrow interprestation of what to do froma third party standpoint, and Sixus has taken many of those thoughts and ideas and worked them into the PH figures. Something for everyone to consider.

I sorta can afford the bandwidth. My internet connection, due mainly to being in the rural areas, is a T1 for home-business operations. No bandwidth limits, thank you very much. But it is only a 1Mb (~90KB) connection. Not bad, but definitely not DSL or Cable. My partner and I operate our own email, ftp, and several web servers. Though we've been having trouble with some dude in Moscow breaking into the DNS server trying to set up his own Apache site on that machine. I don't have money though. Most of that goes to pay for the T1 ($700/mo - long distance here) and mortgage ($2400/mo). As for time, work on interPoser Ltd 2.0 is underway, just finished two plugins for a stage production company in the Netherlands, getting ready to get back to interPoser Pro, and something else (NDA). This is all me, no employees. :) 70-80 hour weeks are murder, but worth the effort. I saw that Project Messiah video. Awesome! If only Poser were doing stuff like this! Look, I can always do something if needed. My time is stretched, but a community project (whether freeware or commercial) to shine the potential of Poser gets a thumbs-up from me.

incidentally -- they are rather good looking. Something I wouldn't say if I didn't think so.

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 00:52

Anton, much better on the left shoulder. What V3 needs is a makeover (and what girl/woman doesn't like one of those!?). ;) If we could get shoulder, elbow (I hate the straw bendy spiked elbows on some of these figures), knee fixes and then some extra rigging for the toes and back, there might be something to move forward with. The problem is, at this late date, how does this affect the conglomerate of clothing out there? Do we just retain the clunky clothes and hope they work? I'm really for a better spine for Poser figures, if you haven't guessed. :)

Forgot to add, Anton: How do we disseminate these fixes? And legally so that Daz or someone else isn't claiming infringment. It'd be nice to have these fixes be automatic, you know what I mean, rather than incidental and hand-crafted.

I wouldn't know. You would have to ask them. They may let you objaction encode but really it isn't practical. There are so many figures to make clothes for now. People are already waiting for VickiPro which will need clothes. They aren't likely to start making clothes for a encoded derivative that could get pulled on a whim. Once a figure is released, it is what it is. It's like recalling a 1997 Ford for a engine change. They just make a new Ford for the upcoming year and convince people they need the latest model instead.

You can definitely tell that Poser is moving into a new realm. This isn't the 'artists digital manakin' that it started as, huh? With the profuse amount of character animation going on these days, the stakes and bar are getting higher. There was a time when rigging toes was an unnecessary expense. These days, it is a necessary evil (or good, if you're into that type of thing). Just as we look backwards to those olden days of Ataris and C64s and earlier and wonder how Tron and the Moon missions happened with such archaic, limited computer equipment, there will be a day (hopefully not too many years from now) when the most intricate character rigging/muscle-system will be trite. People will wonder how we dealt with all of that complexity at such a level - just as we do with these other achievements. Poser, although using some archaic principles, is still ahead in some areas - conforming clothing, hair, simple pose/animation/material/etc application, a stuporing amount of content. I don't want to speak for Poser or Curious Labs, but the goal of being the innovator in character work is one they should take. Yes, even if they must divide into PoserArtist and PoserPro to hit both the hobbyist and professional markets. To address your point, which is well taken, there are constantly new figures and the community gravitates towards the best ones. Figures of superior quality, I believe, will entice loyalty and encourage sales related to them. I keep up with the Daz's as it were just because they always offer interesting figures and support them (well in some cases, moderately in others). The problem is whether to take a well constructed figure like V3 and correct its errors or to attempt a better figure with unforeseen potential. As you mention, V3 may be too far gone to be corrected. What do we do then?

lol. I didn't say she was too far gone. lol It's just too close to the next version to bother. K I've been thinking about you some more kuroyume0161. :) ----------------------------- Poser one limitation that is absolute and part of what causes our woes... Poser skin doesn't not move..it only bends and twists. It will not shift over bone and muscle. I suppose you could do this but it is tricky. You need Dynamic Skin. If dynamic cloth is more natural than conforming the same would stand true to skin Just like the clothroom you need dynamic skin that conforms over a figure of muscle and bone. But this is so nightmarish. You would have to have a skeleton with dynamic muscles. Then a top of Dynamic skin. The muscles could be erc'd to morph properly as you pose the skeleton and the skin with soft and rigid groups would conform and respond. Now on top of all that the clothes would have to dynamically conform. They did this for the movie "The Mummy". Even they had poke through. But you could get around that my making the muscles and skeleton invisible. Point 1 --------- Even still, it would be a nightmare. The main reason Poser is popular is because people find it easy to use. It is already a struggle to get people to embrace dynamic cloth and hair and the material room. Add things like dynamic skin, weight mapping etc too quickly and brokers will vanish like morning dew. There are tons of people will warez copies of the most expensive rigging software but there is no content. Content is what makes everything is Poserdom click. "The Spice must flow". :) As we have seen, figures with little support fail. So do software packages. Peeps are already getting top line figures for under $100 and people scream robbery. If Poser technology becomes too complicated one of two things will happen 1) Prices will go up 2) People will give up making content as that it won't be cost effective. Poser will change and evolve but it has to be gradual. The bar is so rediculously high now for people who make content that too great of a jump, too soon, could kill Poser. People who make mediocre freebies now would have been heralded as gods years ago. It is asking alot for people to learn. So you have to ask yourself, what are you willing to live with? Not that you can't have expectations. It is late and your posts got me thinking. That's all.