Hi folks In one of the several art communities where im registered, I caught this FUNNY forum conversation (excerpt): (...) -.Silly-1: This is great! very nice composition, she's beutiful. did you use poser? -.Silly-2: HELL NO!!!!!!!! (very sorry, but I hate Poser) -.Silly-1: good, i hate poser too.almost no creativity involved -.Silly-2: Thank you! someone who agrees with me! (...) BTW Silly-1 uses 3ds max 7; Silly-2 Lightwave 3D And I ask: why some (fcors, not ALL) 3D modellers hates Poser and thinks that is a "second class" software? You need to model your own characters to be an artist? You need to be a modeller to create art? Art isnt in the brain as I thought but in a modeller software? Poser isnt creative for (some)(very stupid) modellers ????? Why (some) modellers are so SILLY?

bring out yer dead! (pony)..;) nah, we get that a lot..;) Truth is, it's a poor craftsperson who blames their tools..;) psst- it's really so they can feel good about how much their software cost..;) what makes a good artist is talent, regardless of how the image gets created..

What I find ironic...is quite a few of these people who bitch about Poser are actually selling models to us they've made. Don't see them yakking on about taking our money. There are other reasons, but I'll refrain from saying...as we'd all start the beating of the already bloodied dead horse. I ignore them, could care less what they think. I guess a reminder to these pin-heads would be to show them the McDonalds cup...where a person within this community, has there POSER render on a national brand.

Actually made some progress beating down this attitude in a recent thread at CG talk. Basically all most of these "L33t mod3113r dudez" Know of poser is the plain Dork/posette stuff that often shows up in various places. They are generally completely ignorant as to what the software is about. Then there are people who are just idiots, but that happens in any group so it just doesn't bother me any more. We as serious Poser users need to get over our inferiority complexes and just prove them wrong with the end products... and Pros: PLEASE start using a mildly morphed V2 at least :p

dlk30341: sure. As I could see, my Silly-1 have his gallery full of renders with DAZ3D models, so ... 3D studio max, yes, but with a lot of imported Poser models (he hates poser, yes). Nice contradiction (Silly-2 only have own models in LW) Its very curious because here basically is a Poser community, but there isnt any trouble with mixed mediums ... but out of here, in art communities based in 2D, in photograph, in "classic art", 3D is full of those anti-poser modellers... ... as if Leonardo da Vinci only was an artist if he makes his own hairbrushes, but if he buy them to a Medici, his work isnt art ... The Tool Hysterical Madness ... The best MAX modeller without art in his brain isnt an artist but a USER

I am a modeling and love poser. In fact, almost everything I modell ( in wings3d) is to use in Poser or Bryce. The problem for some users of max or lw or maya is to admit their programs cost thousands of dollars and sometimes poser get better results.

"The problem for some users of max or lw or maya is to admit their programs cost thousands of dollars and sometimes poser get better results" Hehehe, envy probably ;)

On another art site, where i have a gallery, i get this total hatred of GCI and "posered" images. One actually critiqued, on one of my pictures, that for GCI my picture was "good", but it wasn't art.

Considering i dont straight render out of poser and hand paint over almost the entirety of the thing, I found that amusing.

This same person commented in another gallery (followed his comments for the month) to find he loved others art..... ahem which were tooled around with in PSP or PS to look like oil paintings, but i know Vicki when i see her ROFL and the MFD.

So i guess if its a clear sharp image they cant create, and have to hide flaws with a softening and oil paint filter, its not art :) Because of these stupid comments, i tend to not put my good paintings up there anymore. Its like showing art to blind people and asking their opinion. Glad i came to renderosity.

I guess my question is why do you care what other people think? Do you like what you make, are you giving it your best effort to make something you are proud of? If so, be proud of what you made. If not, try harder ther next time. Or are you just doing this to stroke your ego and see how many compliments you can fish out? If so you are always going to be disappointed because no matter how good soemthing is, someone isn't going to like it.

"Because of these stupid comments, i tend to not put my good paintings up there anymore. Its like showing art to blind people and asking their opinion." Dont do this, Tiari. Im sure that the most of people loves your art, so the comments of (some) mad modellers arent important ... ;)

I dont care what other people think, Fazzel. Its only a curiosity. Im trying to start to study Max in september, and Im sure that Max havent a Silly-rays or something similar which convert modellers into stupid pumpkins ... ... but who knows? ;) And sorry, I havent ego. I sold it to buy Poser6 :D

I've said it once and I'll say it a million times before I die: Art is in the eye of the beholder. I guess those 'artists' from the 80's that made millions by digging through trashcans to find cool stuff to glue together were not artists. If an image looks good, appeals to a person is something they would mind having hang on a wall in their home or office, then it is art. Just my opinion though.

Agree :)

"I havent ego. I sold it to buy Poser6" Anybody want to buy my ego? It's well used, but it still works. :)

well i my self LOVE poser i do texture and i model for poser poser dos get the shit end on this 90% of the time but if it was so bad why do most modellers see once they open poser that so much can be made for it so much can be modelled for it to model for poser is very hard and takes a lot of skill 1 to know how to model it right 2 to conform it to a poser fig 3 not to pull out all your hair If poser was so bad then why do some many modellers take a look at the income from a poser models and run to do it and most cant coz they dont the iner workings of how to make it work in poser that is were i think it comes in play that poser is so bad yes they can model the shit out of anything but for the life of most of them they dont know how to get it to work JMO hugz Bobbie

Englishbob, sorry, I cant help you. I havent ego but yes a hamster :D

I'll buy the hamster! he he he

Kristta, impossible ... I cant ... really I dont draw nor I understand Poser. I have no word of 3D and I dont know how works FireFly ... THE HAMSTER DRAW ALL MY RENDERS (rofl)

....really? hmm? ability is not tied to pricetag...

"Why (some) modellers are so SILLY?" From what I understand, the reason is actually quite simple, and should be completely obvious. To a "purist" modeler, the art of 3D begins at the modeling level. From their perspective, creating a model from scratch in 3D is the very basis of the medium itself. Poser essencially subtracts that experience from the equasion of the process. So, in their eyes, it's like "cheating", or taking a shortcut in the medium to achieve the final result. Mind you, I don't personally subscribe to this mode of thinking, but I've done my share of modeling in the past, and I have spoken to many others about it, and that's basically the gist of the complaint most of them seem to imply. Don't bother trying to compare it to a painter grinding their own pigments to make paint, etc., because in their eyes, it's not really the same thing. They would compare it more to a painter who paints by numbers (that's what one gentleman told me some time ago when I mentioned the "making your own tools" argument to him). Anyway, the only way to really stifle these "purists" (most of whom, I should also mention, are NOT professionals), is to show them what Poser can actually do, or what it can be used for. If you understand that some of these hardcore, purist, weekend-warrior modelers don't even like to texture their creations, then it becomes clear that there's no way to get through to those kind of people in the end.

LOL ockham, your renders with that little cartoon girl are always so cute. :) Whenever this debate comes up, I always think of how virtually all of the human figure renders by these "experts" are usually expressionless and posed casually, with little emotion or creativity. When I see one of them put together an action scene like Archangel_Gabriel's or even one of my own, I'll think about hearing them out. Modeling your own figure is indeed impressive, but no more impressive than being able to assemble an image that makes the viewer step back and say "wow". SnowS

This question is easy, for some real world artist or for some people the 3d world is not art, they say, you only have to push 3 buttons and you make an image. This point of view is the same the people using expensive 3d software has of people using bryce or poser or vue... I always thought that the software you use is not finish point, any software is only a tool to make art, any kind of art, pictures, movies... Max,lw,maya,softi are very good applications, there is no doubt about it, but they are tools. If someone using max has a script or a plugin that make his/her work easy in max, he/she use it, why not use poser or bryce. It is stupid don't do it. I have no money to buy an expensive software, but I have seen the work made with them and I have seen the work made in free tools like blender or wings, and I have seen the work made with Poser, bryce, vue... and I have to say that the most important thing in a picture or a movie is not the tool you have used, the most importan is the picture or movie itself.

I think this whole argument boils down to whatever the artist in question is most skilled at, or has the most access/experience with. It's this one specialty that they will "argue" on behalf of, and ridicule others for not knowing how to do. This extremist mode of thinking is found in all walks of 3d art: 1) Animators who frown on motion files, and believe everything should be hand keyframed (I have to laugh at this one). 2) Texture artists who frown on photo-based textures, and believe everything should be hand-painted. 3) Techies who believe ALL render engines should use fully programmable shaders and fully customizable architecture (there's some sense to this, but not everyone cares). 4) Modelers who believe everyone should model their scenes from scratch. 5) Even POSER users who frown on postwork of any kind (this ideal can be found in Bryce and other communities as well). Surprisingly, "high-end" users seem less likely to frown on postwork, so long as it isn't a complete 'paint over', and can be reproduced in animation. ... and the list goes on. Personally, in the end, I believe it's the WELL-ROUNDED artist (the artist who's interested in ALL aspects of CG creation) who I seem to relate to most.

maxxmodelz, I can, sort of, follow the argument about the difference between using a preconstructed figure and starting at a more primitive level. "Painting by numbers" is a useful, but not very good, analogy. It's somewhere between that and photography where I think you could put a border. I'm happy enough to use pre-made models, and even start from somebody else's pose files, but this doesn't seem so different from what a photographer does with a model in a studio, in terms to creative art. Different tools, no chance of getting slapped by Posette, but that isn't the sort of difference which distinguishes art. And while photography does replace the traditional skills of draughtsmanship, that isn't what defines art. Besides, a lot of the meaning of art, the visual language, is independent of the medium. There are accents, different dialects even, but it isn't the camera, the computer, or the brush which defines art. It's what you seem and choose to record.

Didn't I read this thread last week?

For me, it's whatever gets the job done quickest, best, and cheapest while being the best quality.

If you're in a time crunch, and don't have the time to make something yourself, it doesn't hurt to buy it already made - especially a poseable human figure, which is VERY time consuming to make - especially one of the caliber of a DAZ model.

Message edited on: 05/06/2005 14:06

As a modeler, I'm silly by nature, probably too much exposure to Monty Python and Hitchhiker's Guide as a lad..;) If I ever figure out 1) UVMapping, and 2) how to get 'sharp' edges into Poser (very close on the 2nd..;), I'll be dangerous..;) You can do fine models in Wings 3d (look at Peejay and others), so it's not necessarily money..;)
I've been married...twice..my remaining ego wouldn't pay for the 99-cent specials at Daz..;)

I use Poser to provide 'visual window-dressing' to stories.

To me, it's the story that matters -- and a good Poser image can help to tell that story.

Of course, to some others the image is all that matters....and a story is nothing but an unfortunate distraction from the pictures ((What're all them words for? I don't like seein' so many words. Like in them magazines......too many words.))

Poser provides a quick means to enhance a tale. I don't need Maya for that. But Microsoft Word helps.

Message edited on: 05/06/2005 15:57

just remember "A critic knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing" I can do a quick anim or graphic with no fuss or mess, it's not going to cost me a small car in order to do it. I like Poser because I can get my thoughts and dreams out without having to go spiders doing it. Two things that Poser is great at that no other programs can match is Crime Scene Reconstruction and Pre-visualization of staging and artist installations. gave up my ego for lent

after discovering bryce, then poser, i always wanted to make the things that were in my head. i don't want to have to shop and buy something that "resembles" what my idea may be...and, then, maybe, try and morph it to make it closer to what is on my mind. i don't even play with poser, since buying lw a couple of years back. an app like lw or max, maya, etc. has 3 stages...the modelling, the rigging and posing, and the rendering. all of these have their unique elements that are necessary to produce a whole result. poser is posing, and lighting, that's it....although p6 looks like it has a decent renderer, this is new to poser. poser is known for being a poor renderer, which is another reason folks may gravitate toward higher end programs. i want to be able to do it ALL by myself. then, i feel like a goddess. :*)

One word for these types: EGO Correction: Ego with stolen software. :) I yawn and move on. I used to be that way. I used to think I had to model every single thing in a scene. Then I grew up and wanted to make some money. :) I also realized that I couldn't model organic objects as well as what were available in Poser. Very few people are good at everything. Those individuals are few and far between. What good is an untextured model? Big woop. My 2 cents, Joe

I think Deecey hit the nail on the head with: "For me, it's whatever gets the job done quickest, best, and cheapest while being the best quality." The beauty of Poser is that it's designed with the express purpose of using 'canned content'. No need to model, texture or rig anything if you don't want to...and a not-to-shabby animation toolset to boot. That's a pretty neat concept that no one else has duplicated well so far, even after as long as Poser has been around, especially at such a low price point. It's allowed a lot of people to dabble in 3d who otherwise never would have. If there's ever a '3d Hall of Fame' I think CL deserves a prominent place in it.

Darn, my poor Jasper has to hungry again. The hamster isn't available.

Why (some) modellers are so SILLY? Just accidently stumbled on this post, but, why not ask modellers themself ??? :D I do almost all models in my renders myself lately, and it's really a nice feeling to create something from the scratch...IT IS ART of it's own. It does take time, but I ALWAYS get exactly what I need. I'm not gonna defend those two sillies from thread 1 becouse ppl like that are narrowminded, but I'm gonna have to say this, If I have chance to make exactly what I need, why would I settle for less or something complitely different; it is all about how badly you want to achieve something...:D

Yeah ...

I model. I used to do Max, now LightWave. But I can't model a human figure ... YET! (I'm learning slowly but surely).

That was the main reason I got hooked on Poser to begin with. It was a way of getting people into the other scenery stuff I was making at the time (back then, just simple architectural stuff). I saw Poser 1, which by today's standards was VERY crude, and thought it was a really cool thing.

I dabbled with Poser throughout the years, going through every version because I always thought it was "way cool." But didn't really get serious with it until the DAZ figures came out. I loved those figures from the moment I saw them, and now I have to say that I actually use Poser more than any app.

Now, I'm still using LightWave ... but I use it to make things for Poser! ROFL

Message edited on: 05/07/2005 01:13

The mad modellers model their own creations? Thats nothing! Everytime I want to make an image I start from the very very beginning. First, I solder together some homemade computer parts with my own homemade tools, and then I code my very own original proprietary 3D modelling program. This can be difficult, as I have to invent a new code every time, using symbols of my own devising. I intentionally make this program difficult to use, so that it by no means gives me an edge. At this point I can begin modelling. But i'm no slacker.....I refuse to model anything that is derivative. I allow myself no influences whatsoever. Only then have I created my art. So, call me a stickler. But seriously, some Poser turd who throws together some canned models, canned poses, canned textures, etc. without a hint of care or understanding regarding color, composition, lighting, etc. isn't likely to produce anything of note, any more than some Lightwaver or Mayan who ham-handedly cobbles together some polygons into the shape of yet another ubiquitous spaceship will be recognized for AliasNewtek's Modeller of the Year. You can have some wonderful commercial components of a Poser scene that, when used without artfulness, will look like unmitigated crap. The same goes for "Mad/Silly" modellers who have no sense of form or style. But sometimes people get lucky. I would think a Lightwaver who buys a bunch of models from Turbosquid, and composes and renders them in Lightwave Layout is subject to the same criticism as the equally-skilled Poser user. And yet Poser users continue to get the bad rap. I like, NO,... I love Lightwave. I enjoy making my own models. But that doesn't and could never negate my respect for people who can use Poser adroitly, revealing aspects my provincial brain might never have conceived. In other words: Those Japanese Zen gardens are beautifully landscaped. Do you think the Japanese make all the sand and rock by hand?

"why not ask modellers themself ??? :D" Hey, Kemal, its a good idea ... I can ask my funny Silly-1 and 2 to know their opinion ... its easy to say "I hate Poser", as "I hate Microsoft" or "I hate the USA president" ... but is more difficult to give clear reasons. And ... probably I amuse with their answers... if they answer :D

It's all paint-by-numbers. You have 786,432 slots (at 1024x768) that you can fill with colors from a 32 bit RGB pallette. You can program a computer to generate every possible Poser/Lightwave/Whatever image without any human intervention. Might take a while but the computer won't give you attitude :-)

"Animators who frown on motion files, and believe everything should be hand keyframed (I have to laugh at this one)." Me too, tell this to the animators that have several gold statues on their shelf presented for 'excelance in animation' or visual effects animation. They used motion capture to do it. Star Wars and Star Trek have made extensive use of motion capture for some of the more non humanoid aliens. Try that in keyframe, while staying in budget, ain't gonna happen.

Modelers should LOVE Poser because it's very easy to animate models compared to the programs they make them with. That's the only reason I use Poser. To animate my own hand made models. If I had to use the traditional rigging nightmares they use. I'd tear my hair out. I think what people get pissed about isn't so much Poser itself. But that people use the existing models and don't make them themselves. I can sort of relate to that. A child can load a figure from the library and push render. If there was no pre-made poser figures. And it was just a blank animation program. Poser might not get such a bad rap. -ScottA

"If there was no pre-made poser figures. And it was just a blank animation program. Poser might not get such a bad rap. " Though it probably would have vanished after version 1.0 and no longer be around to get a rap, bad or otherwise. Whether for it's original purpose of helping traditional artists visualize the human figure, or creating finished digital productions, the figure content is integral to what Poser is about. It's 'Poser,' not 'Modeler' or 'Animator.' The fact that some people may not respect that has, or should have no relevance to those who use it.