No hard feelings either, Mobius and I apologize, didn't realize that there was a Mobius and a Moebius, I figured both were the same individual, I'm sorry! Jack

I am not arguing that top sellers do not pay for the bandwidth, but my point is that to increase the quality of products on Renderosity is not a simple matter of dropping the poor sellers and keeping the top sellers. That will result in a market place filled with proven sellers, kill all attempts at innovation, and remove the entire range of niche market products. The resulting marketplace will look like a fashion boutique for Vicky. New artists and merchants will find it impossible to get established, and will eventually lead to a stagnation of the marketplace. My point is that to increase the quality of products a different measurement has to be found than "sells more than ten copies". If someone is happy to make a brilliant product that will sell five copies, then he should be free to do so. The marketplace and the forces of capitilism will eventually move that item to the warehouse and off the site, but if the maker was happy with his five sales, then why deny him the right to sell? The same forces will also drive a poor product out of the marketplace. What is really needed is better testing. For example: Failing my product because it said "The files in this product...." instead of "All the files in this product...." is not funny. Failing my product because all the files where not listed in the file listing is not funny either, especially when I resubmitted the same product the next day, without any changes, and it was passed (I resubmitted it because neither me nor my two beta testers could see what files were missing from the listing). But it is funny that neither of the two people who tested this product found that my product only worked in Poser 5 and 6, because my files referenced a "Glass Environment Map" that is included in Poser 5 and 6 but not with Poser 4, and my product was advertised to work in Poser 4. The first Poser 4 user who bought it found that error. So we need better testing, and that will increase the time taken to test, the cost of testing, and the level of skill of testers has to be increased. This is money that needs to be spent. Or very soon this place will just be a poor man's Turbo Squid, were you can pick up good and bad models for a song, with no way of knowing what is good or bad. Rating system? Recommended products? More honest reviews? Proper Rendo investigation of complaints against a product instead of referring us to the merchant? I don't know, and that is not my job to decide, but I do agree that the quality of testing needs to be improved, and not by some system of "it sells so it must be good". Helgard

I didn't watch the other discussions about her but it's sad to hear it has to come this way ...I'm always interested in new figures and I hope you will find a way to pull her again!

I hope Renda will be back with another...better cr2. The mesh was good, I think. I like her face, mostly eyes and lips and her shoulder...and REDUX! The problem was only with cr2. Renda...we're waiting back with new UV (inside lips and sockets and nipples, separated lashes)!

"The problem was only with cr2." That actually is the issue. Given the issues with the CR2 AND the fact that she so closely matches V3 in shape - it is definitely within the bounds of "reasonable" to assume that V3 was used in her mesh construction as well. DAZ has made it quite clear that constructing a figure mesh around V3 through manual or automatic "shrink-wrapping" is a big "no no". Even if Renda was somehow "coincidentally" close to V3 in terms of mesh shape, the whole "Joint Param Copying" incident makes it too dangerous "legally" for Rendo to simply re-rig the mesh. I gather if they thought that was an option - they would have taken it rather than pull the figure. Oh, and "mahna mahna" (ynsaen got that song in my head & it just won't go away!!!)

But it is funny that neither of the two people who tested this product found that my product only worked in Poser 5 and 6, because my files referenced a "Glass Environment Map" that is included in Poser 5 and 6 but not with Poser 4, and my product was advertised to work in Poser 4. The first Poser 4 user who bought it found that error.

Just one question, and please don't take it as an attack, because I agree with about 90% of what you said. But are you saying that you think the store testers should each own a copy of P4/PP/P5/P6 and D|S so they can check which ones it works in? Are you going to pay for that? Should Rendo? And what about when testers leave and new testers come on board?

If you're going to advertise that something works in P4, it's your responsibility, not the Rendo testers' to make sure it does. Maybe you need more beta testers? My beta group has 23 people in it, and between us somebody owns a copy of each program. So our products have been tested in everything that we say they work in. If the first P4 user that bought your program noticed the problem, why didn't you bother to have someone beta test it in P4 before you even sent it to Rendo?

Again, I agree with almost all of what you say, but using store testers as a personal beta team is a pet peeve of mine.

Doot-doo-di-doo-doo. ;-)

Sorry, maybe it was a bad example. It is my responsibility to test my own products and I did test it in Poser 4 (but if you have Poser 4 installed on the same drive as Poser 5, the CR2 will still find the texture map in the Poser 5 folder and it won't show up as an error). What my point was meant to illustrate was that the testers failed the product for missing the word "All" and the second time for something that no-one could find, and approved it without the second thing being "fixed", but failed to find the real error. Trust me, I do not use the store testers as personal beta testers. My products work the first time round. (Except for the damn Glass Environment map, lol) 23 beta-testers? Wow! I don't even know 23 people......

Thanks for clearing that up. :-) I just didn't want people to get the idea that testers should be responsible for trying things out in every program. And I'm right there with you on the "all" thing. lol. I talk too much over at DAZ, lol. So yeah, I'm in a group of 23, and they're all really good friends of mine. Several are store testers at other sites, and many are other merchants. I don't let people beta test for me that I don't know really well and trust. I'm actually in a couple other groups with totally different people, too. All friends I've met here or at DAZ. From talking too much. ;-)

I'm a tester at another store...you know, butterfly_wish , and if I get a new figure to test...for example a 100 % original poser figure :), I always test at P4, P5, P6 and sometimes in DAZ Studio AND check the files manually. Yes, I know it is a little slower procedure, but needed I think. This is why I have a product still pending since weeks, but in another store it is released. I know about a serious problem at this product...almost same as Renda...no...worse... I was helpful and told to vendor and to the other store...but I still see in store. I don't understand this. I thought that if they know about a problem...maybe answer me.. or check the product....why didn't notice this the tester? I think testers need to help a little. I always help if I can...and usually can.

Yes, you're a great tester! :-) I've only got P5 and D|S, so I usually only test a product in P5. If it had specific D|S files I'd test it there, though. And I check any P4 bump maps. I've had to send things back for fixing up to six times before the problems were corrected. I know what you mean about some stores not catching things they should. :-( No idea why they would continue to sell a product with serious problems. That's not good for anyone involved.

One way to test a product in P4 alone is to zip up or move P5/P6 before doing your P4 testing :D And P4 shouldn't find anything from P5/P6 unless you have some absolute references (or have stuff in your P4 runtime that doesn't come with P4). Cheers, Cliff

Believe it or not, I do agree with everything you say. 8-) I am also a person who has created "niche" products that haven't sold. I elected to take them off this site myself. But I had fun making them. That's the whole point. And believe me, I've also been quite vocal in the past about some of the more blatant "sex sells" products. 8-D And I also agree with you that niche products have their place. For example, I have on my hard drive half-made clothing for kids, Don, Judy, and several other ideas that had been rejected in other places. I WANT to do niche products. But here, it seems they get buried so fast that no one ever sees them unless you have "a name." And yeah, one in particular sold only ten copies. I almost wonder if the niche products would stand a better chance if they were more visible? Another part of the problem is, when people see what really sells they have a tendency to copy it. And then we get a zillion of them to choose from. That seems the most obvious place to start when I say that the number of items has to be reduced. Yes, you are right ... we need better quality. Yes, you are right, we need niche products. And most of all, we need originality, and not more of the same. And people need to be more considerate of other people's work. As I said, the decision of what to sell and what not to sell is a delicate and hard decision where you have to strike the right balance. No matter WHAT the decisions are, someone is going to be unhappy. It is a job that I wouldn't want. Sorry for the big blunders I made in my attempts to say what was on my mind. In the greater scheme of things, I hope you understand that I was only trying to suggest things that would HELP the community as a whole.

Communication is rough in a forum with no body language :( But those of good will see a conversation through to the conclusion where - all too often - it's discovered that there are actually quite a lot of intelligent, witty, and fun people around. Who knew? Cheers, Cliff

Yup, Cliff, that it is ... my posts weren't said with malice. My brain knew what it wanted to say but my fingers didn't say it right. Feet taste very bad, by the way. 8-D

Attached Link: http://www.jaguarwoman.com

I ve no axe to grind - mainly because I read some forum posts on Renda before leaping to buy Even as a spectator though the main thing that comes through to me is how different the standards in quality checking and control have been for this internal Rosity product and what is generally expected by Rosity of any external provider If that doesnt leave a sour taste is the mouth of every vendor jumping hoops at Rosity's behest to get products placed here I dont know what will ; )

.......and see what happens.

I think that I need a('nother) vacation........

I'll give Renda a look. When she's ready to be looked at.

I think the people who worked so very hard on Renda should be thanked and honored for doing the right thing. Sheesh, anyone can make a mistake, and I most sincerely doubt that anyone consciously did anything wrong. Folks, try to put yourselves in their shoes. This has got to be so hard on the Renderosity team. I, for one, will continue to trust Renderosity, because of the honorable decisions they made to correct a difficult situation.

Will the community get to know who did this. I don't need a pitchfork or torch, just would like to know who to stay away from. Usually, the person or persons involved have done this more than once, when something like this happens. I just want to protect myself.

Hopefully the protection of the customers WILL be handled ... and it might be best to handle it quietly and behind the scenes. Perhaps Tim lost feather numbers 246 and 3003; but there may be more feathers flying as well. 8-)

What about other stores that may have products by said person/persons? What about already bought products?

Another part of the problem is, when people see what really sells they have a tendency to copy it. And then we get a zillion of them to choose from. LOL. That is SO true! Thus we have a zillion impossibly-breasted Vickies running around here! Well... maybe not so much running, as they'd knock themselves unconscious. LOL. I most sincerely doubt that anyone consciously did anything wrong. Well somebody did something consciously wrong, otherwise there wouldn't be a copyright violation. ;-)

because of the honorable decisions they made to correct a difficult situation.

A difficult situation that they, in fact, created by a) not listening to the people that said the model had serious flaws and wasn't ready to be released; b) very obviously not putting her through even the barest of testing and certainly far less testing than merchants items are put through; and c) not bothering to even take a peek when the model had a very obvious resemblence to V3.

I personally have a lot of trouble IDing models particularly when they don't have hair and I took one look at Renda and said wow she looks a whole lot like Vicky.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2165790

That is more understandable, Deecey. :) A niche item, especially here, is almost doomed. I don't expect my mermaid character to sell very much because of the lack of that particular type of character use in the galleries. She's a niche but unique. Same with anything for Koshini and gang. And then there's timing and which store would do better for what product. I have a small store because I won't put just anything in the market and have more freestuff than mp stuff.
Another thing to consider, although it may not amount to a lot, is that once an items gets to top 30 status the percentage changes. Top selling items pay 10% less to the store where low selling items pay that extra 10%.

What the marketplace needs to do is get choosey. Deny textures that are simply flood fill that took an hour (or less) to do, require detail. Start suggesting that a simple prop, like one would find in freestuff, be either put in freestuff or included in a much larger marketplace package. Deny first time models who just followed the latest tutorial, such as a the rhino 'model a chair' tut.
Poser Pros has no problem with making suggestions to merchants about raising the potential of their products as well as taking the stand that they wont accept just anything. Nothing wrong with that.

LOL Thanks Kendra. Bear with me ... sometimes I put my foot in my mouth because I can't find the right words. But even in my complaining and ranting, my heart is ALWAYS in the right place (I think! LOL). Feet taste HORRIBLE!!!! Yuck. Ptew!!!

If you don't mind me asking. What are you into these days that's so fast moving and innovative on a weekly basis? -ScottA

'Yes, you're right there is some "bad" stuff that sells. And there is some "good" stuff that doesn't sell as many. But then again, there are other things that there are far too many of and THAT may be why they aren't selling (deecey)' 'I almost wonder if the niche products would stand a better chance if they were more visible? (deecey)' At the risk of getting involved in a pointless discussion that'll never change anything, I'll make a few comments. The problem isn't just what it's good or bad, sells or doesn't sell. It's the sheer VOLUME of stuff in the Marketplace. DAZ did the smart thing last year by clearing out a load of products that didn't sell or were sub-standard. Why? Because by doing that, they made the store a lot easier to browse through. If you can't find anything without wading through 3,000 pages of stuff you don't want, you'll give up pretty quick. And that's bad for the store and the merchants. So maybe.... well, no 'maybe' about it... that's definitely why a good product may only sell 10 copies. What can you expect? It's buried under an avalanche of other products after the first week. I have products at DAZ from 4 years ago that still sell. Mainly because people can still find them. Ever tried to find a 4 year-old product here? Go on! I dare you! What needs to be done with the store here is similar to what we all do with the dreaded garage or attic. Spend a weekend/week/month going through it and chucking out anything that's unnecessary. Who decides that? Well, don't ask me. It's not my store, thank god. mac

While I can't get into too specific details due to NDA's and whatnot, I have been working in the Anime and Video Game market for a while now. Interesting enough, getting into the Video Game industry would've never been a possibility for me if not for Poser, which helped to teach me the basics so that I didn't have such a steep learning curve when moving on to Maya. I have found that the Video Game market is really fast paced, it seems like every week a new product comes out that challenges other companies to emulate that feature and include it within their own game engines (MMORPGs are a good example of that). It is also interesting to see the flurry of activity that ripples out in the "Modding" Communities as average players or gaming fans also enhance or expand a game beyond it's prescriped capabilities. Anyhow, that is where my time these past few years have been spent, with much less drama or excitibility. :o) Jack

I don't know much about the gaming industry. Until recently I thought it was a passing fad. But nowadays mothers and fathers are playing as much as the kids! A secretary in her 50's was telling me once how much she wanted a PlayStation console. It kinda freaked me out. TRIX ain't just for kids anymore. ;-)

Deecey, however, The costs are a hell of a lot less than the profit. You have to remember, they get 50% of EVERYTHING they sell. For the most part, if something has one sale, it more than pays for it's cost to be hosted. Then ya have the things selling thousands of copies, which cover pretty much everything else. If rosity was complaining about things not selling enough to pay the bills, they definately wouldn't have as many items in the store, and you'd hear them bitching about it too. Gotta remember, Bondware doesnt do anything unless they can make a profit.

I'd suggest you take a good look at As S's Shapes series: e.g. http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=35684 The only thing As needs to do is set a seperate head dial (so you can have Keilo 85% body and 55% head, for example) ... But the system works very well -- and would be a great way to redo and relaunch Renda.

I think that sort of defeats whatever purpose that Renderosity owners had when purchasing and working on Renda... the intention was not to create, yet another, Victoria 3 character... but an entirely new figure that would've been (or had been hoped to be by the PTB) to be "competition" to Victoria 3. I think the majority, no matter what was done to Renda, would stray as far away from her as possible if Renderosity choose to re-release her... if she had been a firework, she would've been an utter dud... better to scrap her and start fresh... or not at all... but I am 100% certain that it will be the former... Jack

Jack, Look at David, for example. "Just another M3" -- but not at all. No one treats As S's characters and such as "just another" ... I think people in the market are resiliant, but who knows.

The only problem with using AsShanim's characters on Renda is that it will still make use of the original body shape and joint parameters that are protected by DAZ. It's not a valid solution.

Message edited on: 07/05/2005 07:09

Ethesis, Actually, if I remember correctly, David is actually a cross between V3 and Stephanie Petite... Unlike AsShanim's character (which was based off of V3 to begin with), Renda was supposed to be a completely new and unique figure, built completely from scratch... unfortunately, during the creation process she was kinda stamped out of the same mold as V3 and then DAZ's Intellectual Property was used to make her work. Think of Renda being like a cookie... Renda was supposed to be a completely new cookie, and though it there are other chocolate chip cookies out there, Renda was suppose to be a unique recipe by Renderosity... However, during the creation process, the creators of Renda decided to create their cookie to be made in the same shape of DAZ's own cookie... already removing some of the uniqueness that Renderosity's cookie would've had, but then, when it came right down to making the cookie ediable, Renderosity decided to use the same (not so) "secret" cookie recipe that DAZ created for their cookie, packaged it and tried to sell a DAZ Brand cookie as their own. Almost like me taking a bag of Nabisco's Chip's Ahoy cookie, opening them up, sprinkling a little powder sugar on them and then putting them in a Jack's Sugar Chocolate Blast Cookie bag and selling them as my own brand of cookies... It isn't ethical and it is stealing, no two aways about it... and that is pretty much what just occurred with Renda. The fact that DAZ didn't slap Tim with a lawsuit and even took steps to work with Tim to correct this obvious theft is a testiment to DAZ's desire to work with those that would even entertain a notion of being competition to them (DAZ)... and, personally, I think Tim should be pretty relieved that he got away with it without being punished, unlike Mehndi who lost her position and website in this Community for stealing textures and claiming them as her own. I guess that is the difference between the majority of the Poser Community here and that of the Community on Poser Pros... over there an offense like stealing and trying to pass something off as their own to that Community is a Sin punishable by being ostrosized from the Community and no longer trusted... but over here, theft is seen as a mistake, forgiven... the person responsible is patted on the back for "coming clean", forgiven and allowed to continue their function and plans... As an "outsider" now, looking in on the Community, I look forward to see the new figure that is in works and see just how many people purchase and support a product from a company that has already tried to pass something off as their own that obviously wasn't... Jack

Thats fine and nice and all that, Jack, but did you really have to mention cookies when its late evening here and all stores are closed ??? :-)

Got Milk?

My bad, sweetie... sorry. Jack

"I guess that is the difference between the majority of the Poser Community here and that of the Community on Poser Pros... over there an offense like stealing and trying to pass something off as their own to that Community is a Sin punishable by being ostrosized from the Community and no longer trusted..." Ha ha ha..... Really? I will never mention names, because I am not in the muckraking business and I keep to myself, but there have been examples of merchants on DAZ/Poserpros who have been found commiting infringements, and a "fix" is released and those merchants are still selling... I am sure if you ask around someone else will mention the names.

Really? I will never mention names, because I am not in the muckraking business and I keep to myself, but there have been examples of merchants on DAZ/Poserpros who have been found commiting infringements, and a "fix" is released and those merchants are still selling...<< Oh, OK, I understand now... since others can do it and get away with it, then it is OKAY to do it and should be tolerated and excused... there should be no consequences and it shouldn't reflect poorly on those that did it... ...Right? Is that what you are saying?? Forgive me, I just want to be sure that I am understanding you correctly... Jack P.S.: Do you also think that Community Leaders and those who maintain these websites should not be held to higher standards of behavior? Or should they be exempt from facing ramifications for such acts? [Edited to add the P.S. Questions]

Jack, don't twist what I say. I did not say it was to be tolerated or excused, nor did I even suggest that. My point was that Poserpros have also excused merchants guilty of infringements, something you said they do not do in your earlier post. And yes, I do agree that "community leaders" and those that maintain websites should be held to higher standards, or at least the same standards as everyone else. I also believe that when an infringement is committed, such as with Renda and other cases where fixes have been released, the names of those merchants should be made public (not done here), or the exact infringement should be declared (as was not done on Poserpros/DAZ). If I as a merchant start work with another merchant on a joint project, I would hate to find out six months down the line that the person I am working with was responsible for this or other infringements.

but over here, theft is seen as a mistake, forgiven... the person responsible is patted on the back for "coming clean", forgiven and allowed to continue their function and plans... Heh, heh...only if ya have the right 'friends'..or the right amount of friends....the rest of us are mere peasents ;)

Actually from what I've read over the last week or so, over here theft and mistakes are just expected. As someone else put it, people roll their eyes and say "saw that coming," then they go back to work.

Helgard said: >>My point was that Poserpros have also excused merchants guilty of infringements, something you said they do not do in your earlier post.<< I don't recall Mehndi ever excusing merchants that have made mistakes... she would accuse and then ban them from PoserPros. Hence the irony of her now suffering the same fate that she had imposed on others. If they are allowing it now, then it is a result of DAZ working with the current administration there and it is a situation that I am unaware of as I don't spend much time anymore visiting these sites. I suppose if DAZ and the rest of the entire Poser Community wants to tolerate and excuse this pattern of behavior, then who am I to go against the system and loby for any sort of change to reduce the amount of errors like this from occurring? I don't know why it surprises me to find that there seems to be less and less people in the Poser Community who will argue for the need of Standards (or even upholding Standards) in this Community, and those that do (Peng for example) end up getting shouted down by the masses, flammed or driven off... or, all of the above. Renderosity once was a flagship for and was an example of the Poser Community (even when Willow ran it briefly), now however, it has gotten to the point where the main standards that are practiced here is of apathy, isolation and greed... which now, is slowly creeping into the other Poser websites... ...sort of makes me glad to be in a different field of interest now, as this one is no longer what it was once reputed to be. Jack

Jumpstart said: >>Heh, heh...only if ya have the right 'friends'..or the right amount of friends....the rest of us are mere peasents ;)<< Yeah, I... saddly, agree with you. There was a time when this site promoted and encouraged equality of the members that visited it and the treatment of those who were members here... not any longer. The "King" or "Queen" on the throne may've changed, but the fact remains that the Poser Community is back to bowing down and kissing ass again. Jack

Butterfly Fish said: >>As someone else put it, people roll their eyes and say "saw that coming," then they go back to work. << Yep, and that is the sort of apathy that I've been describing this Community as having now. The only time anyone speaks up against something that is wrong, is if it directly effects them... if it doesn't, they shrug and go back to what they were doing. Which is why nothing will change in this Community, whatever standards remain will slowly disappear because the unity that was once so heavily present and encouraged is long since gone. Jack

Divided and de-sensitized. Welcome to the big city of Poser-opolis. :-(

sort of makes me glad to be in a different field of interest now, as this one is no longer what it was once reputed to be There was a time when this site promoted and encouraged equality of the members that visited it and the treatment of those who were members here... not any longer. The "King" or "Queen" on the throne may've changed, but the fact remains that the Poser Community is back to bowing down and kissing ass again. I totally agree. My interest in Poser and the community at large has waxed to almost non existent. I really tried,too, when I saw this place heading the wrong direction to get someone to listen. It's become just another big, impersonal place on the web, and, there isn't much reason to pop in anymore.