I dont wonna know from the H20 what people are popular but what pictures are. The trouble is that those flattering voting robots don't read this thread. They don't care about fractals anyway. (And I don't like rhetorical questions too much.)

We cover this - time to move on . H

Now I remember why I stopped coming to the Forum!

The easiest solution is to change the name from "Hot20" to "Vote Swapping Extravaganza!!!!" .. Those extra exclamation points mean extra fun! Although this might offend any Hot20ers who actually think every one of their images really is worthy to be recognized as a top image.

Lagardo- perhaps nobody claims it is other than a popularity contest, but I think most of us can relate to visiting another gallery and checking the Hot20 first expecting to see the best recent work that is in the gallery. I often go to C4D and TG galleries and look in their Hot20.. And you know what, the best work generally is in those Hot20s. Our Hot20 is too watered down with the auto voted/swapped voted images. The fractal window weekly is a much better example of great work.

Today there is an image in the Hot20 that is not even an image, it is a message. Sorry, that just seems wrong to me.

Renderosity: the 'Price Is Right' of fractal art websites.

We are going to make changes to the system. Just not right now - according to Dream Warrior posted above. Surely if this is the case then any further discussion is pretty futile until we are allowed to know what these changes are. Presumably, they're 'top secret' at the moment and mere members are not allowed the details. Sometimes when you treat people like children, they act like children - just a thought.

I haven't heard what the "changes" will be, either, but I'm not sure they're being kept from us. Could be they haven't decided yet exactly WHAT changes will be made? I feel that these threads, as troubling and divisive as they sometimes are, might have a good side in that we can at least try to make suggestions and debate constructively about how to improve things and maybe the operators of the site might agree with some of the things we come up with? At least I think that's how it works.... Rick

Hmmm - we can but hope Rykk, we can but hope!

Mags- Repeating what I had posted, as well: As was stated, the Hot 20 will see a change, just not very soon. So, with the system as it is...the only way to see more diversity in the Hot 20, is for more members to vote. "Surely if this is the case then any further discussion is pretty futile..." No...this particular discussion is about working with what we have...the 'vote' button. Surely if more members vote, there is more of a chance that we will see a change in the Hot 20. "Presumably, they're 'top secret' at the moment and mere members are not allowed the details. Sometimes when you treat people like children, they act like children - just a thought." First, as Rick said : "Could be they haven't decided yet exactly WHAT changes will be made?" This is correct...there are no definites yet, though we have collected the ideas from discussions such as these. Second, things take time...there are many other issues besides the Hot 20. I assure you it IS on the list. No one is being treated like a child. If that were the case, why would we even allow anyone to suggest their ideas in the forums? We are here to serve members the best we can. Please be patient, and let's try to work with what we currently have. Thanks, Nick

I think you're being unfair, Mags. Everytime someone made a suggestion, complained about something or simply ranted, we listened, we payed attention and asked for opinions. I said what I said because I wanted to give you guys a sense of tranquility that you're not being unheard. That we do care. We could have simply left the thread unreplied and open for endless discussion. We always do what is within our powers. Barb

I'm sorry you think I'm being 'unfair' - I think that to tell us there are going to be changes and then not tell us what or when is pretty 'unfair' too. You say things take time - well, this is not the first time the Hot20 has come under discussion - presumably it has been 'on the list' ever since members first started complaining about it and you have been 'listening, paying attention and asking for opinions' from way back when it all first started - so surely by now you must have enough information to come up with some kind of decision. Without any details to back up your statement that there will be changes it just feels like a patronising 'pat on the head' from a parent to their squabbling children!

The Hot20 is a Rendo wide feature, it envolves not only the fractal gallery and it's not mine or Nick's decision what to do with it. We are not the owners of the site, so as I told you, we always do what's within our powers. I'm sorry if you felt patronised, my intention was quite the opposite. Barb

OK - I understand now - I thought moderators had more 'power' than they do - it must be very frustrating for you both in this situation. M

Don't know why the above post suddenly appeared 5 times today - it was only there once yesterday! Have deleted four. M

:) I was pretty sure you were not trying to emphasize! LOL

Thank goodness for that - I'm in enough trouble as it is! lol

I don't believe that. It has happened in the past because I have gotten one of those IMs, but on every image? I don't think so.

The people who dominate the hot 20 (and we all know who they are) do so because they have a posse, a clique. I guess that's OK because it does boil down to popularity. It just gets so frustrating to see same ones showing up there with every single one of their daily images. How do you compete with that? Van Gogh himself could put an image in the fractal gallery and not compete. Really, take a look at the galleries of these people and see if you can find an image that has NOT been in the hot 20. That's not fair. I know that it will take a change to the system to correct that. In the mean time the only way to help is to vote.

It's been over a week since I started this thread and I am not sure what to think. It might be working. I have 2 images in there and I don't remember the last time that happened, but it's like I campaigned for it with this thread. I wish that it was still more diverse. If you have been voting, great, thanks, keep it up.

Message edited on: 07/17/2005 19:18

Glad to see you have images in the Hot20 at last Keith - not before time! I think you campaigned for every one of us not in the 'clique' - for which I say a big thank you. I've been voting a lot since this thread started and never bothered before - I hope others are doing the same. M

I've been voting my head off since this thread started. And I think we can see a result already because others did so as well. Sometimes it's good to bring up "old stories" :-)

I agree, some changes are starting to show. Of course this won't happen overnight, but I think if we all keep trying, we will be able to see significant differences soon. Things can change when people work together :) Barb

VOTE, VOTE, VOTE thats the action you need to do silently

That's quite a vent. I don't know who the herd is. It's likely that each of us has our own. Some herds are obviously bigger than others Just vote.

I like that Rykk has offered some real suggestions on this matter. They should be taken into consideration. I believe that all of the gripes, complaints, and negative comments on the H20 have already been gone over again and again. I made my own decision on this matter. I disabled my e-bots and I browse the gallery. When I see something extraordinary in ANY genre, I vote...anon. I don't vote for anyone just because they * one of my posts.I don't vote for anything just because I "like" that person. I don't get alot of views or * anymore, but what I get, I believe are sincere. It starts with us as individuals. To thine own self be true. Vote for WHAT you like, not WHO you like...but vote.

I have given up. And my comments come less often. Perhaps playing with fractals and looking through fractal galleries for five or six years makes me less amazed by many images? But I am still amazed by some :-)

I agree - there did seem to be a change but now it is back to the usual few who produce mediocre fractals and have no conscience. Frankly I'm fed up with them taking the **** out of the system and all the genuinely talented fractal artists who post here. The Hot 20 just does not work - for heaven's sake let's get rid of it and put a stop to their inane way of having fun.

Yes, I see that too. It did work for a while though so it isn't completely hopeless. I can't be too critical of the people who consistently make mediocre images and still dominate the hot 20. I'm sure that they are popular because they are kind, caring and loving people. How can anyone criticize that? The system needs to change. I think it was Rick who suggested that we pick a gallery to vote in in our profile. I like that. It would be more democratic. We would be voting in our own neighborhoods. I've gone back and forth about limiting the number of images that any one person can have in the hot 20 and I have concluded that it's a good idea - one a week. One other idea is to change the voting to 'yes' or 'no'. The way it is now only the 'yes' voters have a choice. All a person needs is a following of 25 and they'll make it no matter what, leaving the other 100 of us without a choice. If we could vote 'yes' or 'no', the hot 20 would be more honest. No one would need to know how many 'no' or 'yes' votes that they received. They would only see that they did or didn't make it in to the hot 20. That might make it so that the hot 20 didn't have 20 images in it. Maybe even none if everyone voted 'no' on everything. No problem. It would still boil down to popularity but at least it would be honest popularity.

Deagol those are great suggestions. The no vote would help balance things out.

Voting "No" would heat the fight for the Hot20 even more - just imagine someone with several clone accounts voting "Yes" for their own images and several times "No" for all competitors' images... Someone brought up the idea that one artist should only have one or two images in the Hot20. That's the best idea so far IMHO.

Wish I could data mine the rendo database. Could find some interesting stats I'm sure, about traded/automatic comments, traded/automatic votes, other patterns.. Sad that human nature kind of spoils the system.

I like Rick's idea of voting in only one community. I also like the idea of limiting only one image in the H20 from any artist. I also particularly like the idea of using the IP address as the definition of a 'voter' to reduce the clone account votes. Technically speaking, in general each computer has a unique IP address. So this would eliminate clone votes except from real techies who get into the nitty gritty and change IP addresses just to get around this, and those who play musical computers at the library or an internet cafe. (Probably not many fall into this category.) Unfortunately, additional bona fide users of the same computer would be unable to vote, but I wonder how many of those there are? Perhaps Rendo could do some investigating and find out how many Rendo accounts normally share the same IP address? Can we get some feedback on this from the Rendo managers?

Limiting vote by IP addresses won't work... for those with a dial-up connection only need to disconnect/reconnect to get a new one. Then there is the strong possibility of people sharing the same internet provider, and therefore will probably have similar IP ranges... Also - for those who are on a home network sharing an internet connection with other members of their family - they will all have the same IP address (unless their internet provider allows more than one IP addy per user) Then there are people like myself, whose internet provider (for some ungodly reason) decides to recycle IP addresses every now and then... It would only theoritically work if EVERY user had a STATIC IP address... which ain't gonna happen anytime soon... lol! How about the simple method... if you are that concerned about the "quality" of the works in the Hot 20 - YOU just make it a dialy ritual to get in here and vote for the works that you'd like to see there. It's all well and good to want the votes for one's own works - but if one doesn't vote onesself, then one really can't complain... can one? T.

As Dreamwarrior said in post 42 - "We are going to make changes to the system. Just not right now". Maybe we should just let this thing die until we see what those changes are - we all want changes and have been told we are going to get them, so let's just wait and see - but hopefully not too long.

Exactly. Rest assured that we will welcome and read your suggestions when the time comes, but there is absolutely nothing we can do about it right now. :( Barb

Sorry for the lame suggestion. It's funny how out of date technically one can become in a very short time. To AnnaKirsten, please don't get too disheartened about the H20. I quit looking at it and voting some while back, but recently decided to give it a go again and vote for the images I find are better than the average. Most people here, whether pros or dabblers, are decent and dedicated artists. And to tdierikx, your continual implications of self-serving behaviour for anyone who is dissatisfied with the H20 are unnecessary and annoying.

Hang on.... I was just saying that if WE want to see works that WE like in the Hot 20 - WE have to vote - nothing more, nothing less. That is how the works get there, right? Votes dictate which works appear...? So, it stands to reason that if people don't vote for the works that they like - then they can't really complain about other people's tastes over the works appearing in the Hot 20. I am NOT advocating reciprocal voting! The idea that certain people should dominate the Hot 20 by default actually seems a little silly. Sure, there are some very fine artists submitting very fine works that are somehow not appearing in the Hot 20 - but not everyone's tastes are the same as each other's. What YOU may think is a masterpiece may not seem so to ME (for example). Such a simple concept really... if you like something, vote for it! How come there are so many people managing to spend their time complaining about the way the Hot 20 works - but say that they don't have the time to vote for the works they'd rather see in there? This is all just going around in circles and is becoming rather pointless as far as I see it. T.

For me it's been interesting to watch what has been happening in the hot 20 as result of this thread and then see how it went back to business as usual over the coarse of several weeks. There's nothing wrong with making observations and talking about it. What I see now is proof that the system does need to change. The only thing that bothers me about this thread are the people complaining about it. Wouldn't it be simpler just to click out if you are not interested anymore? Read what I said in the first entry, 5th paragragh. Keith

What if you could only cast one vote per day.

That is a good point jockc... but maybe extending that to one vote per gallery section (ie. Fractals, Poser, Terragen, etc) - some people may be regular participants in more than one medium... Deagol - the sorry fact of the matter is that we have members here who seem to think that just about every image they upload should be automatically included in the Hot 20 - just because they think that their work is so much more superior than anyone else's. Yet these same people beg off on the voting aspect, saying that it's a waste of their time for one reason or another... they want everyone to vote and comment on their work "just because"... sorry people, that ain't gonna happen... ever... Me personally? I've never voted for anyone's work - and I really couldn't care less if my work gets into some Hot 20 list or not. If I post my work here, it's because I thought it was decent enough for public viewing, and if other people like it, that's nice - if they don't, that's cool too. I have over 1100 fractal images in my own personally hosted gallery - and 2 (yes TWO) that I have posted here... draw whatever conclusion you like from that little fact. Renderosity isn't the be all and end all of the "art" or fractal community you know... T.

IMO the Hot20 is an instrument to pop out of the mass of artists and posted images. In the newest fractal vintage gallery there is an artist who stopped posting one or two years ago - he is already forgotten. And everybody who does not post anything here is forgotten within seconds. So you need the Hot20 to promote your gallery. Those who don't have this need have the chance to leave the Hot20 alone... If I am allowed to vote only once per day - it will be hard to vote for two images which are worth every vote. Ciao, Andreas

tdierikx, Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall anyone in the fractal community ever explicitly or implicitly saying what you claim them to have said, i.e. that "their work is so much more superior than anyone else's" and that others "want everyone to vote for their work "just because"". Perhaps you can point out an instance or two. Because if not, I would be very relieved if you would keep those types of remarks to yourself because I, for one, am totally fed up with your accusations. You, of all people, who claim never to have voted for anyone's work, are being incredibly phoney in scolding people for not voting. You say you don't care who is in the H20 list, then why don't you just butt out of the discussion. We all know your opinion, we don't need you to keep repeating it, with more insulting remarks each time. And furthermore I, and probably most others here, could care less how many images you have in your personal gallery. If you don't care about the Renderosity community, as you imply, than kindly stay out. Tim

Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? Travel the world and the seven seas Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused Eurhythmics The song wasn't written for the Fractal H20, but... ulli

Please, let's keep it civil.

Fair enuff then... I'll butt out... this whole thread is getting totally pointless anyways... too many people trying to read an undertone when there isn't one. I understand that my opinion isn't worth 2 bob here, and my artworks couldn't possibly compete with the "masters" that seem to populate this place... even if it is only at their own insistance... (sorry DreamWarrior - I just had to have a dig... grrr!) T.

I am sitting in front of this computer with a friend and reading through the forum..This is the first acquaintance I have had with this incendiary discussion. And though I couldn't quite agree with the taste involved, I had to LOL @CI's photograph! ..A little, if ambiguous, comic relief to puncture some of the turgidly distended tensions here... I thought that Rykk-(but not only)-contributed some solid sanity to the discussion: I, too, before I read this and consequently understood that it was considered taboo, had explicitly registered a V in the comment..Not to indicate a "vote-trade" but simply to reinforce the compliment...I obviously will exercise greater caution hereafter.... It seems to us-(I and my friend)-that all the difficulties with vote-trading could be effectively resolved by requiring of each artist intending to vote for the H20 that they submit a list consisting of their twenty preferred images, by a specified time limiting the event, to the moderators, Barbara and Nick, who have been proven as eminently qualified artists and moderators, for final judgement. We would then simply accept their selections as final. We may, in particular cases, dissent from their choices, but we could no longer complain of mediocre work appearing there.. This is the suggestion of my friend, which instantly seemed to me to constitute very good sense.. It, perhaps, would not entirely eliminate vote-trading, but, even if that were occurring, would subject the final lists to the scrutiny of persons whose every indicated inclination is in the direction of imagistic excellence.... It makes sense to me....

what can be said that has not been said. I know some people posting here(gallery) does not have the time to comment as much as say I do. they have families to care for and working more than one job to make ends meet. I do spend a lot of time visiting many galleries and enjoy viewing and commenting on work whether it is the quality of the fine artists or not. Everybody does not start on the top, but with encouragement they may continue and be there.as for different galleries, I post in photography as much as fractals. Poser and Terragen is software I use on a regular basis but do not care to post. I do not spend enough time to be really good, but that does not stop being able to spot excellent art no matter what the software is. I have used most of what is out there at one time or another(no good but did try). My main love is Apophysis and photography with Poser in the runing. I stopped mentioning vote but never stopped voting for what I think is excellent images, no matter what gallery or genre. if some of these people has time to be in the forum belittling others then they have time to comment and vote if they choose. last time I looked "community" is in the name of Renderosty and that means cooperation not back stabbing