I've just opened a little something I recieved through the post from Maxon.

Behold...it's a news-letter with the biggest joke I've heard from them to this day!

I've finally had enough of their "questionable" modularity-upgrade crap to last me a lifetime.
I'm dropping this system for good, and have decided once and for all - I want out.

Here's what I'm offering;

PRODUCT LIST:

Cinema4D XL6
Cinema4D 8
Cinema4D 8.5 Upgrade Module
Cinema4D Advanced Render Module
BodyPaint R1 Stand-Alone and XL Intergrated Module
Shave And A Haircut 2.5

INCLUDED PRINTED MANUALS:
XL6 Reference
XL6 Tutorials
BodyPaint R1 Reference
BodyPaint R1 Tutorials
Cinema4D 8 Series Reference (slight damage to spine)
Cinema4D 8 Series Tutorials
Advanced Render Reference

All boxed (about 10 CD's in total I think).

Cinema4D seems to be a popular next step for Brycers, so here ya go, drop me an "IM" and make me an offer if anyone's interested, I'll consider the best offer.

Len.

man nice bundle you are offering, guess $25USD wont get it for me though ;)

Hi Consider listing an asking price if you are serious about selling this software if you want "bids" you may just want to Go the Ebay route. you May want to Detail if any of these are eligible for upgrade pricing to R9-9.5 i have recently switched to Eovia Carrara pro4 for better poser compatibility and in general I am in agreement with your dissatisfaction with the entire Module pricing system and I no longer consider cinema4D competitively priced. But you should consider perhaps toning Down the anti Maxon Rethoric just a little when posting your offer to sell GOOD Luck :-)

I don't suppose you would consider a slightly used Yugo in trade, would you ?

@CrazyDawg
lol - Sorry man ;-)

@sackrat lol - Slightly used? Didn't they stop production like 20 years ago :-) @wolf359
I'm considering EBay, but I'll see if I get lucky here first. And yes, as far as I'm aware it does offer an upgrade path to version 9 etc.

The upgrade path is indeed "there", but it's unfortunate that Maxon have chosen such an unrealistic and "majorly" unfair tactic of upgrading.

I'm not "Anti-Maxon", their software is awesome, and their support has been without fault. Unfortunately, that does not compensate for the fact that I "will not" be forced to pay for suff I don't need, and as far as I'm concerned that's exactly what they're doing.

For someone who lives where there's no work, buying into a professional system is hard enough, so when Maxon announced that Cinema4D would become modular, I thought woohooo - I'll have some of that.

I was lead to believe that buying the new Modular based core would allow people on a tight budget to gradually build a system that they need over time. So I decided to go for this system.

So I bought XL6, and then when my budget allowed, I bought the BodyPaint module for it, and that was great - I was starting to build a system I liked and could actually get along with.

But then came Bodypaint R2 which I could not use with my current core, so I would have to buy a version8 core. So, reluctently I bought the version8 core, and then I also bought the Advanced Render module to boot.

Again great stuff, but hang on...then I decide to buy the animation module, and was promptly told that my new core along with its AR module is no good, so then I've got to buy a new core, a new render module, and then I can buy the animation module version with cloth, and then surprise surprise I can also buy the R2 version of BodyPaint which will finally work with this now system.

I'm sorry Maxon if you're reading this, but when I'm told I can expect to upgrade my core with future modules, I expect to be able to do "just that". NOT to have to re-buy one core to make yet another module function, which then in turn becomes obsolete, when I need to buy a third core in order to get the animation with cloth module to work, which in turm makes all my previous modules out of date.

This upgrade philosophy stinks as far as I'm concerned - and I will say so. The sooner I sell this to someone who can afford such an "epic-scale" upgrade path - the better.

For those of us who can't afford such strategies, I sincerely hope that Maxon will rethink their methods, and at least offer the poorer amongst us a chance to buy the older obsolete plugins at a discount, if we wish to do so.

If anyone doesn't agree with me on this - tough. I have this system, and I know when I'm being forced to buy stuff I don't need, just to make something else function - and someone else very rich!

I for one was always a big fan of their software, but I'm now a majorly alienated customer.

Len.

pumeco in all honesty i agree with you. The way they are forcing a customer to re-buy modules so they can upgrade or get a better systom stinks.. gee now i don't think i'll bother with the software, after all the good reports i have seen on it as well. There just had to be one thing that turned me away and you pointed it out..

Sackrat, you have a Yugo too!? They may have stopped making them but with gas at $3.60+ any vehicle that gets 45mpg freeway and 35pmg city is worth it. Besides the Fiat engine will last forever if you take care of it....although it is hard finding parts like wipers and lights and such...=)

Frankly I NEVER Forgave Maxon for removing radiosity from the Core package after XL7.3.3 particulary when programs that cost less than the core package offer it as a render option I stopped with C4D at Base version 8.5. I still prefer its modeling tools but to add HDRI/GI would cost $500 for the AR module. So i just kicked in another $50 and Got carrara pro4 which has a fast Hybrid engine with HDRI/GI and will import my animated figures from poser Directly without any intermediate export/Conversion/plugin hassle. C4D is a really good program!! but its just not priced realisticly in todays Climate

I use core and AR myself. The modular system works very well for me.

I agree, I have no problems with maxon.But, its better if you get all the moduals you want in the beginning, then upgrade from there(just those moduals you have).Or, just don't upgrade and wait a few years, then buy a whole new bundel.It's cheaper in the long run.

Oh, I forgot.If anyone here does buy these from Len, you will also have to contact Maxon to transfer the license of the most up to date version to your own name(it may or may not cost money to do that as well.)

@Zhann, Fiat parts will fit sometimes.

I have Cinema4D CE+ (Yes upgraded off the magazine $100.00) and have wanted to upgrade to C4D v9 but have a hard time justifying the costs associated with product as mentioned above when you break down the costs your looking at the same price as max or Maya with less features. Cinema4D works very well but falls short for integration with other products such a Poser, This is one of the most widely used programs out there and most companies have made an effort to support some type of import to accommodate it. Im not trying to take away from the quality of the software, I use it to model with and the rendering engine in CE+ is fast but radiosity and hdri is included with all the other apps out there why not include it the core? When I think of modular I think of plug-ins that expand on the core or improvements that build upon existing features to improve the work flow which some of these moduals build on not add-ons to features that should have been included. Lightwave has all the basics built in but you can buy streamline plug-ins that help improve your work flow, C4D needs to re-evaluate there core software or their going to miss out on the new artist market. I agree with pumeco, why would you buy the core software then a modual to be told you need to upgrade to another core to accommodate the modual where is the sense in that? 3D software is a white elephant you will never get back what you paid for it, there are people that make money with the software they use and can justify the cost of upgrading but there are many more of us who are just hobbyist and buy it for enjoyment why not an entry level package like Avid did with Softimage? Sorry if this sounds like a rant its not meant to be, I like my version of Cinema4D I use it every day but when it came time to upgrade I bought Carrara 4 Pro, Vue 5 I , Poser 6 and a bunch of plug-ins which gives me more feature then the core software and as many features if not more then the studio bundle. I dont have a problem spending money on software I do have a problem throwing money away. P.S. I have Corel Bryce 5 and have used Bryce since v3 I love the software, it will always be in my tool chest and look forward to see what Daz does with it. Long live Bryce.

Well, I'd only need Advanced Render, so I'll pass. :-( BTW, Zhann and Scakrat, not only they didn't stop manufacturing Yugos, they are creating a new line. But it's not as good as the one from the late Eighties, with the Fiat engine. And parts are dirt cheap over here. :-)

Yugo?! It that corpse still alive? I thought it was buried along wiht the Trabant, Wartburg, Polonez and other quasi cars from former east europe. sorry.. OT.

@Dennis445

Well said, and I have to wonder hom many people reading this will "truly" understand what I'm getting at.

I have no problem whatsoever with having to pay for upgrading my system with new abilities. My problem is that I don't see why I should have to buy yet "another" core upgrade and yet "another" render module - just to be able to get the new animation module to work.

ANIMATION MODULES SHOULD NOT EFFECT RENDER MODULES<<<

This "so-called" modularity is hardly what I was lead to believe it would be, before I started spending my "hard to come by" cash on it.

And just in case a member of Maxon get to read this - here's what I'm gonna do;

First of all, I'm going to see if I can sell-up this system. If I can't, then I'd be stupid to stop at only half of what I needed, so you'll be pleased to know that I'm going to make you even richer by paying "Full-Price" for the "obsolete" plug-ins to upgrade my current core.

I'll be going for the Dynamics and Mocca modules. One things for sure though, when I manage to get to the point at which I can fund such an outlay, the growth of my Cinema4D system will well and truly STOP RIGHT THERE.

Not only is this modular system poorly implemented, but it's also rather lame to continue "full-price" on modules to update an obsolete core.

It's my guess you're scaring off many potential customers (and this simple thread be your proof) so it's about time someone at Maxon got real!

Len.

Len...I have the XL package and will not upgrade this time, for the same reasons as mentioned here - Maxons upgrade policy is unfair.
I would warn you about MOCCA!! It is clunky and you will spend weeks trying to set a character rig up. Yes it is powerful in theory, but it is not a solid product IMHO...and I have used Maya in a prefessional inviroment to compare it with.

People seem to forget XSI Foundation 5...in my opinion this is fantastic value and the animation tools in XSI are second to none! Foundation easily competes AND beats C4D XL for features in many cases...I cant believe they are doing Foundation at the price it is (299 in the UK and I think $499 in the US)...it couldn't be much cheaper if they gave it away. It's worth consideration and it has industry standard animation and soft body dynamics and the best integration of Mental Ray of any other package (Max or Maya).

Worth a thought...

Cheers

Message edited on: 10/02/2005 06:57

Dennis445: Yes, you are right, if I ever buy a new software, it probably would be LW rather tahn Maxon (although Maxon is really great). Who wants a core w/o DOF? And who wants a core+AR for almost the price of the full package? The module pricing is really strange. I saw full LW package for some $800 after Siggraph, if they keep that price (I hope so:), Maxon will have a trouble, I think. Er... I think they already DO HAVE a trouble with XSI Foundation, its price is inbelievable. bazze: Im doubtful if Yugo was buried with Trabant, I still can see new ones on Polish streets. And dont compare Polonez with Trabant! It was more or less a full-featured car, although... er... eastern. And it was NOT buried in 1989! It was produced until some 2000... quite well competing against more modern Western cars thanks to its low price and big interior.

BTW, why are there so few XSI images here? With that price... :)

"BTW, why are there so few XSI images here? With that price... :)" Because it doesn't have the simplicity of Poser. I really don't know why, but I guess it's because that many people are not ready to put the time in to reap the rewards :/ Cheers

@Cheers

Thanks for pointing out XSI, I've been over their site and downloaded the demo clips etc.

I have to admit, that's a LOT of 3D power for it's price - really amazing. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be wise to move over to XSI - well, not at this point anyway.

See the thing is, we all have our different goals of what we want to achieve with our software.
For me those needs are quite modest, but unfortunately not easy to come by in a single "affordable" application.

I need mainly three things (essential to my needs);

1 - A modeler that can model symmetry in real-time.
2 - A hair system.
3 - A dynamics system.
4 - A bloody good renderer.

Now from what I've seen, XSI will give me all that - except for the hair-system, which only comes with the Advanced edition (which is way out of my budget). If the foundation edition had a hair system, I'd certainly give it a shot - but there ya go.

I can hardly believe I'm about to say this but, after visiting a few sites today, things are actually starting to make my Cinema4D setup look attractive - lol

My system is sorta half finished, so instead of being forced to upgrade the core and modules I've already bought twice over (just to get clothide), it looks like I'd better go for seperate Mocca and Dynamics modules for my current core - then I have a very powerful system.

Like I said though, theres no way I'm falling for Maxons "epic-scale" modular upgrade path any more, my core is staying at 8.5 and that's that. If ever I need anything above what I'll have when I get those modules, I will no doubt be looking into the history of how XSI/Lightwave/Maya treat their customers in terms of fairness of their upgrade structure.

BTW, Cheers if you are still reading this thread, could you please be a little more specific about your dislike of the Mocca module - I'd really like to know because it looks as if that's the route I'll have to take.

Thanks

Len.

Attached Link: http://www.c4dcafe.com

Mocca isn't really that bad, there is just about zero info on making good rigs in C4D.But this is changing, the main problem has been a lack of character animators in C4D(there are ALOT of motion graphics artists though!).There are maybe 3-5 very good character animators in cinema, and the one you can talk with on a regular basis over the internet(and get help) is from Cactus Dan.He also has made a very good CA tool set(a few plugins that are for sale at his site).With CD's help, I have actually gotten a very good character rig set up, with only the basic bones and one free plugin called "multi-target" to get rid of bone fliping or other things that can hinder in character animation.There is also another forum called www.c4dcafe.com that is focused on animation almost exclusively( I am there more than any other forum as well).So, join in and have some fun.BTW rel 8.5 is very,very capable.The only function that rel 9 has that is worthwhile is clothilde...but now im rambling.

TwistedBolt has really just about summed it up, when talking about extra plugins, Len....I will add that as already mentioned that Cactus Dans plugins are really essential for good CA in Cinema...which considering everything is ironic that plugins are needed for important features needed within C4D CA. I have also found mesh deformation a pain in C4D...the Claude Bonnet tool...well I gave up with it. It just couldn't produce nice results. My main critism of MOCCA is that it doesn't seem to produce reliable results, with things not acting how you would expect them to. Cheers

SO XSI and Shave and a haircut would defeat the point of moving?? I've been seriously considering XSI at it's current price it's a fantastic deal. Exactly as with Len I want to add a hair system, but as this is for hobby not work I don't want to stump up for shave....

@-cheers, there are actually a few very stable rigged characters at c4d cafe that use mocca.You might want to check them out maybe.As for claude bonet,I never used it, I always stick with selection tags and point selections.C4d also needs the joints to be modeled in a certain fasion for the best deformations possible. I have posted examples for rigs at c4dcafe.com Check this thread out: http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=5670&hl=point+selections I'm MilesBaskett over at c4d cafe, so PM me or start a thread If you want to discuss character rigging more at length.I'm always up for it.This is pretty OT for a bryce forum...lol.

Awww c'mon TB, it maybe OT but it is computer related at least - and even Zhann has joined in so I guess it's ok ;-)

Seriously though, thanks everyone for the input. It seems that no matter what I read, there's always a nasty little surprise around the corner - check this;

Well, as you can see from my previous post, I kinda felt as if it looks as if I'm stuck with Cinema4D, so I decided to take a really close look at the Mocca and Dynamics plugins. I browsed the web for a while doing a bit of research on them, and while I was generally pleased about comments on the Mocca module - I could hardly believe what I'd read about the dynamics module.

So, if I may pick your brains again folks - I need to know if the rumours are true. I'd read that using the dynamics module for clothes is nigh-on impossible to do.

WTF - is that true? It's a "Dynamics" module for christ sake. Even Maxon's own site is marketing the module as having cloth simulation. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're quite kinky, aren't clothes made of cloth? I really don't know what to believe on this one because some say it's possible, some say not, and some say that anyone who even thinks it's possible are living in some state of illision.

So, does anyone actually know the facts about this?

BTW, I was also interested in Gog's comment. So am I to take it that Shave and a Haircut is available for XSI 5 Foundation?

Thanks

Len.
(Can't afford anymore "expensive" mistakes)

One of the guys at 3d Buzz reckoned you could add Joe Alters plug in to XSI Foundation, not sure if he meant yoiu can buy shave and a hair cut for XSI or whether he meant you can buy the XSI Hair module as an extra. I haven't checked it out yet as the next software buy won't be until I've finished hacking together a new PC, and I don't know if I'll go with Max, C4d or XSI

Oh well - no takers? (I wonder why)

Anyway, I was chatting with one of Maxon's dudes today, and although he was very professional (as always), there was nothing really he could do for my situation.

So, basically I told him "I wan't out", and was told they were sorry to here about that, but if I wanted, there's no problem in my selling my bundle - as long as I sell the latest versions of what I have in my bundle.

He also told me there'd be no charge for the transfer of licences to the new owner (so that's cool).

Anyway, I've decided which package I'm going to switch to, so it's looks like it's EBay time for this little lot!

Thanks

Len.

EDIT:

BTW, Thank's again Gog. I checked it out - but I can tell you that Shave is only available as an intergrated part of the Advanced edition - and that's a shame.

Message edited on: 10/04/2005 11:08

Dynamics can do cloth sim BTW.Anyway, have fun with a new program whatever it may be.

@TwistedBolt

Whatever it may be? - LightWave :-)

Strange as the world turns really, 'cos LightWave was my original choice years back (most photographic renderer IMHO), but the only thing that stopped me was the price of getting into that system at the time and that's why I went for Cinema4D :-(

LightWave's cheaper now, has everything I need, and a much more realistic upgrade structure.

Len.

Thanks for the info Len, that's a bit of a bummer, to compete with what I have now I'd have to buy the advanced and I don't have $6000 to spare....

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1061616&Start=1&Artist=Gog%5FCA1&ByArtist=Yes

I just finally knuckled down to giving C4D a try (triggered by your post and the lack of rendorsity for the last couple of days) I'm using 6 CE+ (cover disk freeby) so here's my first ever C4D scene. Once I got into it the work flow seems better then 3ds Max (or at least v3.1 which is my current version)

Gog, really you should check out LightWave and download their new feature demo clips. When you consider what they've just added you will get; >The best renderer (always has been IMHO) >New soft AND hard-body dynamics with cloth built-in >Great animation abilities >Superb hair system with Sasquatch (Seperate module) Now as far as I'm concerned, when you add the current price of LightWave and Sasquatch, it comes in waaaaaaaaay cheaper than going for XSI Advanced, so to me personally it's an obvious choice (nothing else on the market can match that power for that price) :-) Seriously Gog - go check out LightWave/Sasquatch, and forget about Max/Maya/Cinema. Len. BTW that was a great first attempt at your pic :-)

Hi Len I'll check out LW, it's been a long time since I've looked at it, my last package purchase was maya 4, but I find I just don't use it, sticking with Max 3.1. I just feel like these packages are now too old and don't offer newer things I'd like to use such as normal mapping and better workflows, hence looking around to see what to buy, it may be Max 8 which is due soon and includes hair, although I can see my wife objecting to the price tag. I guess with alias just being bought by autodesk I'll avoid Maya for the moment. Thanks about the pic.