Character and/or Texture packages for the following figures are not allowed to be shown nude in any promotional images in the MarketPlace

Aiko

Hiro

Koshini

Ichiro

Krystal

LaRoo

Miki

Mill Kids

Rosy Cheeks Lina

The Girl

Terai Yuki

E J

I'll not even stat my opinion in the opening,I just want to see reactions

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 07:40

I have to wonder why Miki and EJ were added, but that's my opinion.

I figure it's a private server and the ones who run it make the rules, regardless of whether they are popular rules or not. I'll adapt and adjust, as will everyone else in time. Some are upset now, but in a few weeks it will be all water under the bridge and back to business, with a few small changes. There are no changes to the Gallery rules, so I don't really see why people are so upset over it. You don't need to see boobs and genitals to see if a skin texture is nice. Chances are if the person paid much attention to the skin texture on the face and body, they paid equal attention to the parts that a 2 piece bathing suit covers. And if they didn't, there is always the refund policy.

Miki, EJ, the anime characters and the toon characters do not belong on that list. Luke and Laura are missing.

Wether you agree or disagree a smart business will listen to their customers now Renderosity is a business

But it's also a business on a private server. Just like a store inside a shopping mall is subject to the Mall's rules. The only difference is one is virtual, and the other isn't.

I agree with Acadia. These are the rules and we deal with them or leave...pretty simple.

Besides, I think you are all missing the big picture here. In another thread someone stated that they sell here because this site gives them the most sales. Have any of you even considered that this change might be a good thing where other sites are concerned? Obviously Renderosity has a monopoly on the Poser market. Now there is a chance that the market will spread out to the other poser sites, making Renderosity less of a monopoly than it's been. I really don't see this as a bad thing at all. It has huge benefits for other sites that have stores.

If this is a WIP list, I wouldn't be greatly bothered by the odd selection. There's obvious candidates missing, which come in the box with Poser. And there are characters on the list which it seems ridiculous to condider as underage. It should be obvious why Renderosity want to be careful about this. It would be far better if Renderosity didn't look so damnably careless in how they manage these affairs.

"Obviously Renderosity has a monopoly on the Poser market. Now there is a chance that the market will spread out to the other poser sites, making Renderosity less of a monopoly than it's been." Monopoly? Nah. Gargantuan pit of habit and central gathering place with an all but inescapable gravity well? Yeah :) but no -- this isn't a bad thing. It's growth and change. Does it affect the galleries? Not directly, and not immediately. My opinion is that there are some issues with sensitivity training that need to be had on the part of the Renderosity Store team, particularly as it regards to women, but, well, that is my opinion, and hey, it is their site. Lots of other ponds to splash in still :)

Heh, so those models are 'teens' or 'kids' now? Hahaha. Okay I'll bite. Rendo's site, rendo's rules. We can live with it or leave. Sounds good when it's being yapped on a forum, wonder how it feels in practice? 90% of my '04 Poser dollars were spent at Renderosity. 90% of my '05 Poser dollars were spent at the 'other' sites. Great buisness model IMO. Good thing Rendo has that massive legacy behind it to keep pushing it forward. As for the real issue here, get with the program kids. Do you honestly think that a site will consider certain models 'teens' for store shots but not for gallery images? LOL. How naive do you have to be? I'll let you in on a not so secret, secret, it may not happen for a month or two or six, but that change is coming. You can bet your sweet pixels it is. And when it does the same folks will line up to tell us how great a change it is, how it's not a big deal, 'cause after all the store has been like that for a while now, and why would we want to do neekid pictures of those kid models anyway. :) Happy New Year!

I am okay with all this but I am curious over why Miki is on the list... it never occurred to me she appeared particularly young. And she does own a pretty boss motorcycle.

I'd just like to understand why Miki is considered underage and her counterpart Koji is not (see Aiko/Hiro), is it the beard? Some coherency would be nice.
Besides there are still merchants with nude promo images with Aiko and Hiro, and i didn't see their stores erased (not yet at least, and not as quickly as some other merchants).

However I'll abide to the rules, nobody forced me to come here anyway, it's not my company, and i actually like many people in here.

Just food for thought.

Oh! And a Happy New Year :-)

Edited to say that obviously i don't agree with some items on that list (Miki included) :-)

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 10:02

Face it folks, like DAZ and EF, Rendo is going fot the BIG ONE.

Imagine Poser running in schools, libraries and universities.
Imagine all the kiddies getting hooked to Vicky and telling their stay at home soccer moms about that cool virtual BARBIE they can dress and play games with.

Imagine Rendo being the #1 site they all come to buying new clothes for their "virtual Barbie".

Can you imagine how much $$$ there is in that market ?

But this wont happen unless Rosity like DAZ bans EACH and ANY nudity from their site, so that they are no longer considered Pr0n by Ms and Ms "Make it safe for the children"

Of course they cant take away our freedom to do smut just all at once.
Naw. How do you cook a frog ?
Throw him in boiling water and he will jump right out of the pot.
But put him into warm water and heat it gradually and hell
happily stay until its too late.

Make no mistake. They WILL ban nudity from the gallery and from the forums, too, because they have to.

It has absolutely nothing to do with PayPal or credit cards,
but all with going for more profit.

If you want to make big $$$ selling Barbie clothing to kiddies, this is the place to be.
If you want artistically freedom and integrity, well...

Im not judging here. All Im saying is that you should KNOW what youre doing and where the ship is heading to.

stahlratte

Miki should not be on that list. Although she has some faults, she is the closest model there is to an accurate portrayal of an Asian woman. I've posted in another link the problems Rosity would face if they were a European company but something else occurs to me.

Someone needs to give the Rosity Admin team some education in understanding the norms of other cultures. I have not found anyone of Asian origin who believes Miki to be any other than an adult.

My main question though is, does the Rosity Admin team even care?

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a merchant were to offer a character based on Miki but with bigger breasts to conform with the Admin team's WASP stereotyping on female ageing. As it stands, the ban on MIKI is an insult to Asian women adn, indirectly, to all women blessed with smaller than average breasts.

They should come clean with their agenda: either, no naked promo pics at all in the store, even on pages 2 and 3, or they should ban all of those that are clearly under age, including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Edited to say that this post crosed with the one above and I too believe that it is part of a move towards an eventual total ban on nudity. It would not surprise me if someone at Rosity has attributed the growth of Daz to their 'no nudes rule' and wants to implement the same policy. If this is the case, then they should come clean and say so

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 10:34

I agree ... This is obviously a business decision; but the rules seem to change very often. If the intent is to eventually get rid of nudity entirely, it's better to cause the uproar once and get it over with, instead of starting several fires over the course of time.

Rendo bans all these characters so they can sell you Renda 2.

"I figure it's a private server and the ones who run it make the rules, regardless of whether they are popular rules or not." Being a private site don't save them from people being upseted, from bashings and from whingeings. "There are no changes to the Gallery rules" Not yet, not yet, not yet.... "I agree with Acadia. These are the rules and we deal with them or leave...pretty simple." Do you know what are sindicates, strikes and lockouts?????? "You don't need to see boobs and genitals to see if a skin texture is nice." Yes we do, some parts of the body makes no difference of the texture used, but others...... -------- Save Miki from the Bastilla, Viva la Revolution!!!!

I too would like to know how Miki and the GIRL made the list. Miki is clearly an adult, and the creator of the GIRL has clearly stated that the character is an adult (and DAZ agrees with the declaration).

Mabye the Renderosity PTB's could make a statement to inform the users/customers of the site of the decisions and reasons behind them? Would this be too much to ask? Apparently so, since it should have already been done. If I missed the post, could someone point it out for me?

I can understand The Girl and EJ being on the list. The Girl's body may be adult, but her face is very youthful. In fact, she reminds me of the "Disney princesses." (Belle, Ariel, etc.) And EJ looks like she's about 14 years old to me.

But Miki? She doesn't look underage to me at all. Perhaps it's the general neotony of Asians? Back in the '60s, there were frequent reports of "child soldiers" in Vietnam, who when tracked down, turned out be adults as old as 40. Americans just could not accurately judge the age of Asians.

Though it doesn't explain why Miki is on the list, and Koji isn't.

Personally, I'm surprised they don't go DAZ's route, and not show any "naughty bits." It would be a lot easier. And it doesn't seem to be hurting DAZ's sales any.

This is simply a business decision. RMP has looked at their numbers, made a few projections and figured they can deal with the loss of certain brokered items. The sheer volume this site does pretty much gives them carte blanche on what they want in their sandbox. Art and Business do not get along very well, but they can be made to play together in a stiltedly amicable way. As a broker, you need to look at your bottom line, make a few projections and see if you can deal with the loss of sales. Or if you need to seek a different brokerage for what RMP no longer allows to be sold in their sandbox.

I think the inclusion of Aiko3, The Girl and Miki is plain silly. Admittedly, they can all be made to look young but then so can Victoria. And while they are at it, what about Stephanie Petite? The mesh is the same apparent age as Aiko3 so there's a huge inconsistency there. I don't like the way this has been thought out but I'm just gonna have to suck it up.

"Americans just could not accurately judge the age of Asians." Neither differenciate them, all have the same face!

I don't think Miki comes with morphs to make her young? Does she? I know there are xtra packs by others with shaping morphs, but all figures ahve those. Unimesh textures can be displayed on V3 for display purposes in a popup then? I don't really care, but am just kinda curious.

No, Anton, Miki doesn't have morphs to make her look young but she does have a Schoolgirl outfit, which I guess tipped the scales against her. V3 has one or two of those, too but since the model is a well established "Adult Like" model, that wouldn't go against her. Displaying the textures on another Unimesh figure is no problem but I like to show the figures complete, morphs, textures and all. Sure, I can work round the restrictions, I just think they are badly thought out, arbitrary and inconsistent.

I have seen torture and certainly a lot of dominatrix and fetish stuff in the RM and that makes me wonder. Content Paradise has a "nudity filter". A "family oriented" Market Place store independent of the existing Market Place is another option. In any case I still recognize the right of a retailer to choose what products to sell and what promotional material is acceptable. I shop here because I find the free-for-all of independent vendors consistently produces higher quality product than does the "store artist" and "brokered artist" schemes. The stuff here is just plain better and cheaper though sorting it out from the crappy stuff can be difficult. I dunno... I just am amused that a chain and leather thong makes all the difference I guess :) OT? Pubic hair on a V3 or M3 character does make a big difference to me. I certainly favor female textures with genitals on them. I have never accepted the idea that women have no "external" genitalia... it just doesn't jive with anything I have seen in the real world.

It's time to change to Barbie dolls.

I agree A filter would have been a better choice. All of wyrmmaster's stuff is gone except one little pose set honestly (a sad day indeed) I was going to buy 4 of his sets you can still see them on my public wish list but I messed around to long.

When Censorship knocks on the door and you let him in, Don't bitch when he moves in and takes over. I've been waiting for "credit card must before you can join this site"... I wonder how long it will be before someone decides that there is to much T and A in the gallery? Maybe Rendo should worry more about kids view thier gallery, rather than someone posting a nude "3D" child or child like model????

Barbie dolls have many advantages, if you do a rendering nobody will be able to post a critic "she looks as a barbie doll" because she is a barbie doll!

All of wyrmmaster's stuff is gone except one little pose set honestly unless they CHOSE to close their store,they will be back in the market as soon as new promos are made us merchants are not having products outright deleted,they are just taken out of the market until changes are made. including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Luke and Laura ARE on the list,they grouped all the Milkids together,so Mill Kids means..Luke Laura,Maddie,Matt,the original preteens and preschoolers and mill babies. -3dz

I wonder how long it will take before this tread "disappears" (read: censored by admins). One big tread from last night (Norwegian time) regarding this is gone. One tread from today, by a merchant who got all his stuff and access revoked is also gone.

Before this one is locked: "A team of British researchers announced that many young girls mutilate and torture their Barbie dolls. According to University of Bath researcher Agnes Nairn, "the girls we spoke to see Barbie torture as a legitimate play activity....The types of mutilation are varied and creative, and range from removing the hair to decapitation, burning, breaking, and even microwaving." Barbie has future!

Not to be a sicko, but I understand from BBC etc that in the US an "age of consent" that ranges from eleven years old to sixteen years old depending on the local jurisdiction. US crime shows on TV have it that an 18 year old engaged in consensual relations with a seventeen year old can be charged for "statutory rape" and that "inter-state transportation of a minor for lewd purposes" is a federal crime. What does "age of consent" mean exactly in the US? Such low ages mystify and frighten me. I would not go with someone in their twenties even though I am not yet forty... far too creepy. What the hell does fourteen being the age of consent mean? How do such laws relate to images such as of Miki in its default form? It seems that the vulnerable children are not protected from abuse but images of even a wholesome nature can be proscribed. Many have attributed Vicky's lack of genitals to DAZ being in Utah but I understand that in Utah it is legal for very young girls, children even, to be forcibly "married" to older men. Can any one explain the meaning of age of consent, image of a minor, and representation of a minor in US terms?

What gives the lowest common denominator in this culture so much power? And why do administrators in this society always bow to its tyranny? Is it cowardice and stupidity or just plain greed and contempt? Ironic isn't it? Torture and abductions of innocent people conducted by US institutions all over the world are condoned by most of the population, yet naked 3d polygons are arbitrarily given age, sex and some sort of independence of purpose. One might say they are given the dignity that most of the poor in this society still desperately crave for. Like president Clinton, perhaps we should all start asking what the definition of the word "IS" is.... let alone "REALITY". I will persist in thinking that the naked body, at any age, is the most dignified and the most outrageously beautiful creation ever. And I will continue to resist the tyranny of the lowest of the low, who would redefine it by dragging it down to the depths of their moral or esthetic levels. Q

Hey, guys, Just thought I'd pop in, not locking the thread, just posting a little blurb about the new rules. 1. They're not affecting the galleries. 2. The changes to the nudity guidelines within the Renderosity MarketPlace are due to changing trends within the industry and it provides us with a much larger target market. 3. The "dissappearance" of stores is only until the Merchant updates their thumbnail image and main promo, and is at their discretion. They were given time to change them, and many merchants had done so in the previous year with no prompting. 4. More clarification can be had by contacting the Store Admin ;) In Closing, Have a Happy New Year! MorriganShadow Poser Moderator

I don't understand this kind of rules.Anyway,Renderosity can do what they want:it is a private site.But ,really,i don't understand:what next?

Someone needs to give the Rosity Admin team some education in understanding the norms of other cultures. Why? ...does the Rosity Admin team even care? Yes. A more accurate question would be "what do they care about?" As it stands, the ban on MIKI is an insult to Asian women adn, indirectly, to all women blessed with smaller than average breasts. My particular feelings about how they feel about women reside publically in the Community Center forum. Have for a long while, now, and this is nothing new. They should come clean with their agenda: either, no naked promo pics at all in the store, even on pages 2 and 3, or they should ban all of those that are clearly under age, including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Luke and Laura are already under the previous ban. THis list is an expansion of that. As for an agenda, you make an assumption there without merit. What evidence of an agenda have you seen thus far? And EJ looks like she's about 14 years old to me. This is actually the issue -- folks disagree with the interpretation of the renderosity admins, who are likely erring on the side of caution. Their site, their rules. Being a private site don't save them from people being upseted, from bashings and from whingeings. No, it doesn't. BUt it does mean that we, as their guests/members, folks hanging out, should provide them with the courtesy of respecting that decision and not calling them foul names. Well, at least not outright and on their boards. Seems sorta rude to walk into someone's house and call them nasty names. THen again, this is christmas, and family traditions include lots of variants. When Censorship knocks on the door and you let him in, Don't bitch when he moves in and takes over. ROFL. Censorship is exercised by everyone, everyday of their lives. Government censorship is what you should be referring to. NOt the individual exercising of personal preference by individuals -- which is censorship. Pot? Kettle? What does "age of consent" mean exactly in the US? It varies according to the purpose in question and the ZJurisdiction. Overall age of sexual consent in the US is 18, in keeping with federal rules (not law, rules). COnsent to marry is governed by the individual jurisdictions. AOC for Voting, smoking, drinking, and similar things also varies according to federal and local statutes, depending. RO is located in Tennessee, which is nominally a "southern state", and is also an Appalaichian (sp?) state, where there's a history of some unusually low AOC's for various activities that the area has for several decades been trying to overcome since it is an unfair stigma. What gives the lowest common denominator in this culture so much power? And why do administrators in this society always bow to its tyranny? Is it cowardice and stupidity or just plain greed and contempt? Democracy, self preservation, and none of the above. ...Torture and abductions of innocent people conducted by US institutions all over the world are condoned by most of the population,... Evidence of this available, or is this observational opinion? I will persist in thinking that the naked body, at any age, is the most dignified and the most outrageously beautiful creation ever. And I will continue to resist the tyranny of the lowest of the low, who would redefine it by dragging it down to the depths of their moral or esthetic levels. Most excellent. Um, this pertains to the current situation in what way exactly?

I agree that the staff here can be rude and reading through the thread at their comments I don't follow the forums enough to have an opinion on that but I dealt with the store staff concerning this nudity issue and they were friendly and courteous through out. They answered my questions and reviewed my individual case in a considerate fashion. I found the vendor mass mailing respectful and polite, the staff dealings with me individualy nothing but commendable. DAZ promos? Man, I can't figure out what that is about... the stuff invariably looks like total crap in the promo but can turn out to be quite good. In the end though, I have bought many many more products here than there, mainly for quality but also I am sure due to the larger clearer better looking promo images. I have only been burned a couple times here by deceptive images... Changes here? Anything that expands the Poser market is good in my opinion, it will drive new editions, innovation, quality products and very unfortunately for the artists, lower prices. Look at BATLAB, 3Dream, and Baron_Vlad_Harkoneon for sick low prices. Check "from last" and you will find "characters" for Dork or Posette that consist essentially of a single head morph more or less and cost $12-$18. Recently on the radio I heard a Christian activist in the US saying vis the gay marriage that the US policy of indefinite imprisonment and torture was far higher on her list of concerns. Don't hurt your pixels :) Seriously, Happy New Year.

3. The "dissappearance" of stores is only until the Merchant updates their thumbnail image and main promo, and is at their discretion. They were given time to change them, and many merchants had done so in the previous year with no prompting.

There are merchants still with nude promos of aiko and hiro, and their thumbnails are not gone.
Maybe the search for such products was not well done? shrug
I for one don't want to think about unfairness, hence the enforcement of the policy now.

Hi, Guida, The store staff is doing this manually, so not all of the items have been gone through at this point. There are literally thousands of items to go through, so this will be a longer process than you might expect from an automated process. MS

evidential, check the polls

fair enough. May I IM you with a comment regarding it? (the site tends to frown on political discussions and this thread doesn't need the drift ;))

Thanks for clarifying MorriganShadow :-) Don't know why i just thought today would be like a deadline. (Taking back that New Year's Baileys bottle to where it belongs!)

You're welcome ;)

ynsaen, I really don't care to discuss it further. I've seen what torture does and I've recorded its destruction. I know the value of information obtained by its use. I know the hatred and revulsion that it produces in societies that face it. It's a lose/lose proposition. It may satisfy some innate need for revenge or some other abhorrent racist need, but that has other implications than those expressed in the policy. In the end, it sullies and criminalizes all of us who stand by and let it happen. end of story :}} With respect, Q

Attached Link: http://prorev.com/2005/12/bushs-war-on-sex-and-first-amendment.htm

This policy implies that nudity is porn. My parents would therefore be criminals or bad people because they took photos of me in my bathtub as a child. They may have been bad photographers and could have chosen a better subject, but they were great people, no matter what Bush or the so-called industry standards may claim. No matter how you massage this, that seems to be the message. I'm affraid.

Gettin a tad off topic there, folks. There's no actual cause to believe that this has jack to do with these people making this decision about this site's store. It's sepculation, and unfounded spec at that. Now, granted, unfounded speculation has a long history and strong tradition in poserdom in general, but that's reachin a tad too far...

Oh, OK. Time will tell.

I was just responding to the "What is your opinion" part...

Oops, typo..Message edited on: 12/31/2005 21:21

Happy New Year

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 21:24

Yeah. I should not have gone political. This is not the place. Sorry. Should not go OT anyway. Maria, I don't know to whom you refer as "bashing". If my comments are interpreted as bashing I apologize for that too. I just tend to speak my mind but if something really ticks me off I tend to keep it to myself. Anyway I try not to bash an person, any site, and any figure other than Jessie ;) It seems from my just checking that the age of consent, the age at which a person may give legal consent to a sex act ranges in the US from 12 years of age to 16 years of age. However, photographing a person seventeen or younger in an erotic context is prohibited unless both the photographic subject and the photographer are above the age of consent and below the age of majority and the images are not distributed. I could not find information regarding "fictional" representations created without the use of actual persons that might be drawings, paintings, CGI. I could not find information for how the age difference between age seventeen and eighteen are to be established for legal purposes in the case of "fictional" representations . I think it is good the MP has established the policy it has, and I believe it has implemented it is a descent and respectful manner, but for theoretical purposes I would like to know specifically what people think (not how they feel) about the categorization of Toons as children, I just looked at those particular ones on the list and for the most part the could be interpreted as representing 16 year olds if one wished to do so. It is more difficult for me to see how a figure such as Miki, EJ or Satoko could be seen as representing persons under the age of eighteen. It seems that this MP policy certainly address earlier criticism that child nudity guidelines were based on breast size yet I am still concerned about making images of women with realistically small breast unless I age the face up to between 55 and seventy-five years of age. Should there be a relationship between the age of consent and the represented age in a "fictional" representation? What could make a figure a Toon figure yet clearly not an issue in terms of child nudity? Are there Toons that are clearly over the age of seventeen? Happy New Year and please... I intend no offense.