Deecey >> Why not? I don't think Apollo products have to be sold at RDNA? They don't have to be sold there but if you sell it outside of the source store (except for maybe the DAZ main things) you are cutting your sales in half. I think that is why there are only a few products for him outside of RDNA. People try it and go back to where the money is. The only thing that appears to have more than one item created by a seller is poses (which, if you are good at them, only take a few minutes to do). There is one merchant that did a few things but he is one of the few and he is also really quick. He also just did them to test the market and shake things up a bit. He also has his own store and all the things that entails (headaches and benefits).

IMO DAZ su*ks for many things, but preventing others to cash in on V3s popularity is not one of them.

If you cant be bothered with encoding even though you used V3s UVs and joints, then either go to a court and fight their EULA or create something that only relies on its own quality to build support for it.

If you are into Poser for maximum profit, study the market first and give the people what THEY want, not what YOU want.
Dont blame others for not wanting to join you on a sinking ship.
Customers dont owe merchants any kind of support.
If you get it, great, but you cant demand it.

Finally, if youre not happy with what DAZ or anybody else sells, break out a modeller, Poser magnets or the joint editor, and learn to fix it yourself.

Remember: Poser is bigger than all of us. ^-^

stahlratte

People try it and go back to where the money is. But that can be said of any non-DAZ figure, not just Apollo. I don't think the issue is whether or not it is sold at one store or another ... the issue is time invested vs. returns. And the returns will largely be based on the number of copies the original figure has sold. Which is why I mentioned earlier that Apollo Max Compact comes with "Practical Poser 6", so that will put him in the hands of a ton more people.

As much as every merchant hates to hear this, good quality at cheap prices entices me to purchase a product. I know everybody has to make a living, but every customer also only has so much money to purchase poser products and relatively few of those customers will ever see any income coming back from their Poser artwork. If something is inexpensive and may be something I'll use in the future, I'll buy it. If it's expensive, I'll hold off till I need it. One of the marketing things DAZ does well is frequent sales and coupons that help drop the price of products to a price range I'm willing to pay. No other marketplace does that. RMP doesn't give more than a generic 10% off and sales by various merchants. RDNA has the half off Christmas sale, but even there the prices are still generally higher than I want to pay. I have a lot of content for Poser, that I've either bought or downloaded as freebies over the years, that I've never used in any artwork. I'm reluctant to spend a lot for anything that I only might use. I tend to stick to the larger marketplaces because there's only so much time I can spend looking for stuff to buy. There are about a half dozen sites I look at once a week and a few more that I'll check into less often than that. Regular freebies sometimes entice me to look at other sites, but it's much easier for a large store to provide that attraction than for a small personally run website. Smaller Poser content creators have to align themselves to the larger stores to increase their visibility. I have no obligation to visit a hundred Poser sites every week. Do we really need other human figures? This may sound simplistic, but isn't a mesh something that can be deformed to look very differently than the mesh's original form? Just because there hasn't been a great oriental version of V3 doesn't mean that one can't be made. It's just a matter of making a better morph. It's going to be hard for anybody to create a new human figure that will wrestle away the level of popularity that the DAZ Millennium figures have. Let's keep in mind that M3 and V3 have considerably more support than David or Stephanie, let alone the Young Teens or PreSchoolers or Freak or SheFreak. Try to find any products for the old PreSchool Boy. I'm not arguing quality or anything as much as simple popularity. Mayadoll is probably the best supported figure outside of DAZ, but stuff for her is getting harder to find each year. As an artist, I already have human figures that have the capacity to look like many different other figures. It's hard to sell me a new human figure unless it does something remarkably different than what I already have and will result in significantly better renders and significantly less time to pose realistically. The chicken or the egg problem with clothing still exists even if a new figure does start giving me those time-saving and better rendering advantages. The trick then is going to be how to convince me that it's worth making me part with my hard-earned money for a new figure.

Everything wolf359 said, but with a ! thrown on the end.

If all Poser markets closed down this second, I already have enough usable content and software (which comparatively probably isn't a lot) to continue creating art for the rest of my life. And ... probably much more time to strive for a masterpiece or two.

Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things.

They're often free or very cheap, though. Emotiguy was free. I got the House Mouse free as well. I wouldn't have paid money for either of them.

DAZ has had some clunkers, so the DAZ name is not enough in and of itself.

How many times has DAZ released a model that is the same (or very similar) to an existing product... but theirs has less features and is more expensive? Yet which product do people buy? Yep- the DAZ one... usually because the name "DAZ" implies that the product will be excellent.

I don't think that's quite true. The "list price" may be "more expensive," but DAZ is extremely competitive. If there is a similar figure for a lower price out there, they do something to lower the price on theirs. Coupons, vouchers, sales, freebies, whatever. I suspect few regular customers pay the list price at DAZ.

Wow, what a lot of debate! And to think when I read the initial post my first thought was "what is he/she talking about?" I remembered seeing lots of stuff for MayaDoll and AnimeDoll here and at Studio Maya. Pretty well supported, I'd say. Laroo seems to have TONS of support over at RDNA. But strangely, not anywhere else. I think Laroo 2 is probably the best looking toon figure. The LE version even ships in the box with P6. Yet nobody outside RDNA seems to support her - I hardly ever see Laroo freebies popping up here. She is well supported over there, though. Do DAZ-brokered artists count as DAZ? 3DUniverse's Stacy figure is another one I'd say is pretty well supported, even if you have to dig around a little. I also see some healthy support for the Sixus figures, including 3rd party support. It's tempting to compare Apollo to V3/M3 but remember, Apollo is a NEWBORN compared to those two. V3 did not spring fully formed from DAZ's forehead. Part of her success is her ability to capitalize on DAZ's existing product base of V1 and V2 users. It might be more fair to compare Apollo V1 to Victoria V1. Then again, Vicki 1 was entering an uncrowded market and had all that potential revenue and 3rd party focus to herself. Anyone coming into the game now has a lot more competition for the pool of Poser dollars, though thankfully the pool has grown larger as well. I'd say it's a bit over-dramatic to say that the Poser community has a cult-like devotion to DAZ. Clearly there is room for a variety of content - lots of niches in the ecosystem, if you will - and although DAZ currently occupies the coveted "most popular" spot that doesn't make their customers cultists. DAZ's web presence and marketing machine are assets at least as important as their 3D content. They are the Wal-Mart or the Home Depot of the Poser world. I don't go to Home Depot because I'm a member of the Home Depot cult, even though I frequently buy items on impulse while there. I go there because I know they are likely to have what I need, and that I'm likely to see other things that might interest me, and because it's CONVENIENT. DAZ can offer this kind of convenience, while multiple small merchants can't, no matter what the quality of their products. Perhaps if they banded together under some kind of shared branding/marketing arrangement... some sort of Content Eden or Content Heaven or something. ;-) - Jimdoria ~@>@

RE:Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things. They're often free or very cheap, though. Emotiguy was free. I got the House Mouse free as well. I wouldn't have paid money for either of them. And a good thing they were very inexpensive, because in yet another Week or Two they have faded into oblivion. Seems like the Hype of the Latest and Greatest is what fuels the buying frenzy. I frequently wonder exactly How many actually put down the cold hard cash or simply join in the Forums hype?? Cheers DR

.

As for why new figures. A morph for a figure will not always fix something that is glaringly wrong with the joint setups. If one fixes a model in the setup room then clothing doesn't work. So people keep looking for newer models that overcome limitations in older or current models. example is make V3 sit in a sitting pose with her arm bent and scratching her head. elbow bend problem and thigh problems for the legs. A few months after ApolloMax came out and hype started building up Daz put David in the PClub for $1.99. It's hard for merchants to compete against Daz especially now that they own PoserPros. The Aeon figures at PoserPros support the V3/M3 unimesh and that creates more support for Daz figures. I'm not bashing Daz. It's just how the market is currently. I think in the following year efrontier has a real chance to put an impact with Content Paradise. With partnering with other stores if they also add direct brokering well that will put another avenue for poser merchants.

RE: Home Depot analogy -I go there because I know they are likely to have what I need, and that I'm likely to see other things that might interest me, and because it's CONVENIENT. Interesting, I frequently find that i can go to my favorite AceTrue Value and find what the Big Box Store doesn't have. Similar results with poser items as well. I think that 30% off introduction price really plays on many customers heads. Almost makes them feel guilty for not buying the item. Thinking I may want this later on and I would feel bad paying Full price. So on the off chance that I may want it later, I will buy it now and save. That same Big Box store tends to drive the little guys out of business by easily cutting prices below what the Ma & Pa store can afford to sell at. DR

And a good thing they were very inexpensive, because in yet another Week or Two they have faded into oblivion.
Seems like the Hype of the Latest and Greatest is what fuels the buying frenzy.

I wouldn't call Emotiguy a "buying frenzy." I bet most people didn't buy anything for him. I know I didn't. (Though I loved the freebies people made for him.)

They did post a lot of images, but I think that's because he's a toon character. People lower their standards a bit when they're posting humorous images. They don't spend two weeks messing with the lighting and the pose, then still worry it's not good enough. It may seem like suddenly everyone's obsessed with Emotiguy, but how much time and money are they really spending?

I think that 30% off introduction price really plays on many customers heads. Almost makes them feel guilty for not buying the item. Thinking I may want this later on and I would feel bad paying Full price. So on the off chance that I may want it later, I will buy it now and save.

Not me. At this point, I've come to realize that there will always be another sale at DAZ. And that you can get it for as much as 50% off, or even free, if you wait.

I suspect I'm not the only one, because DAZ keeps offering better deals. These days, many of their products are introduced at 70% off or more. (The toonimal elephant, the new MilBaby, the toon penguin, etc.) I would not have bought Nybras at 30% off. But for $1.40? Why not?

it is a mindless cult. you see
Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things.

Where this line of argument falls down is over the fact that all of the DAZ 'also-ran' figures which you've listed here are -- ALL of them -- largely flashes in the pan. They are released; and then a fair number of people download them & toss out a quick succession of renders. For a few days/weeks. And then, after the initial excitement is over -- these 'also-ran' characters largely disappear from the Poserverse radar screen. It even happened to the much-ballyhooed (at the time) GIRL figure.

V3 is still there. She's always still there.

If you want to best V3, then you've got to do what V3 does. Only better. Even when one factors in the caveat of the 'free vs. $19.99' aspect of things -- most people who want something will pay for it. And if a 'better V3' comes along for $19.99 -- then I don't think that the hypothetical 'better V3' will have any problems finding a market. Simply because she would be what most of us want to see in our runtimes.

Not Apollo -- Venus.

Miki has a chance at being a successful figure. Because Miki pretty much follows the rule.

Whereas Dina sort-of failed, because Dina didn't follow the rule.

@ stahlratte - that render is tempting me.............

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want
This is a subject for a different thread.

Oh? Is it?

I don't think so......

What do people want? If you go by the list of best-selling products, people obviously want V3 characters. If you go by the "wishlist", people want all kinds of items... but will those "wishers" actually purchase the item when you sell it?

As you, yourself have unintentionally implied here: you can either choose to go along with wishes -- or else you can choose to go along with hard market realities.

It's all bound up in a (potential/wishful) merchant's choice.

Does a merchant want to make money at this; or does a merchant want to suffer for the sake of his art?

A fad is not a cult. :-)

Very true.

But that can be said of any non-DAZ figure, not just Apollo. I don't think the issue is whether or not it is sold at one store or another ... the issue is time invested vs. returns. And the returns will largely be based on the number of copies the original figure has sold. Which is why I mentioned earlier that Apollo Max Compact comes with "Practical Poser 6", so that will put him in the hands of a ton more people. True ... But if someone sold something for Apollo at RuntimeDNA and at Renderosity the Runtime one would sell probably around twice as much even though it was the same price. Same item, same price ... whole lot more sales at the origin store.That is just what I have heard from merchants who sell at more stores than I do.

Personally I don't like the look of Miki, but I do like terai Yuki and would love to see some more stuff for her available. I also have to put in another vote for both the P4 and P5 figures. Dork and Posette (which I still use quite a bit) are the only default Poser figures that ever got any real support, and I really think that the P5 and 6 figures should as well. I have to admit I have all the milennium figures except Hiro, but only paid full price for 1 of them - Mike 3. I got SP and the freak free as part of the promotion when M3 first came out, I got the girl as part of the PC bonus coupon, V3 when sh became free, and David when he was put in the PC. Well,I also paid full price for the reduced res V3 and M3.

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want.

BTW - as an aside, this rule is a fact of life which Hollywood used to understand. But these days, the movie moguls have forgotten it in exchange for obsessively stroking their own egos.

And now, Hollywood producer-types are debating among themselves over the deep mystery of why box-office receipts have been plummeting so badly in recent years. Their conclusions usually have something to do with ancillary issues such as DVD sales, piracy, or cable TV. No -- their over-inflated egos won't permit any of them to acknowledge the presence of the elephant in the room. Namely: that they aren't supplying the movie-going public with stuff that the largest segment of the public actually wants to go out and pay their hard-earned money to see. No.....instead they want to attempt to force-feed us with subject matter that most of us have no taste for, and don't want. Whether it's social issues, or left-leaning "message" movies.

Until such time as Hollywood re-learns what it used to know, then they'll continue to suffer financially for the sake of their......"art".

In the meantime, the few Star-Wars type blockbusters that the movie industry chooses to reluctantly offer to the uneducated, unenlightened redneck hoi-polloi will help to carry the financial water for those far-more-important "message" movies that no one actually goes to see. Or sees in very small numbers.

Ancillary matters like EULA's and store merchant policies have little to do with selling anything to the Poser public.

Giving 'em what they actually want to buy is about 98% of the equation.

Let me see if I can take a stab at this thread. My history of selling products for poser started just before renderosity had a store of it's own. I sold at bbay.com. When renderosity got it's store installed, I was one of the first merchants. I then teamed up with Dendras and opened beyondbent.com and he and I sold our products on our own, one of the independant merchants. I think PhilC had his own store too and a couple of others. Renderotica came into being and opened it's own store, I sold several of my more "adult" props and sets there. I hooked up with Daz last year or the year before and started selling my sci-fi stuff there. I now have been migrating my daz products over to seekergamingsystems.com. I'm going to be honest, I'm an independant merchant at heart, and my products are top quality, I know this because I get good feedback and rarely any negative comments or technical issues. I KNOW people want my stuff. Here's the blow... when I released my S.F.C.S. construction set at my own website, I sold maybe 40-50 of them over a six month period. I am now nearing my 600th sale of the same set at DAZ. Daz also gets 50% of the sales, and mind you, they are EXCLUSIVE to daz. I tend to be a person who does things on principal and as the person who does 100% of the work on a product, giving somebody else 50% for an exclusive item BITES, even if I make more money with them than selling on my own. I was more personally satisfied when I was independant. But as the thread asks, how can independant merchants who have excellent products do better? I think perhaps it's because there are too many independants and we are not unified in any way other than cross links, site links, and word of mouth, not to mention making a post in the forums about new products which quickly hit the second page and get burried. We independants tend to hit a market of followers who faithfully buy our products (THANK YOU!), but we don't reach a vast majority of people looking for our products. I had thought a while back that a specific website that is dedicated to being an independant merchant catalog site would be a neat idea. Independant merchants could set up an account there and be allowed to post thumbnails of their products, which would link back to their own website where transactions could take place and people can get larger images and views of their products. If any independant merchants would like to discuss something like this, please let me know and we could have a round-table discussion about it and discuss the possibilities. Cheers, Davo

I think the problem with movies these days is that they are trying too hard to "give us what we want." There's no originality. They're playing it safe. Big name stars, expensive special effects, lots of sequels to previous movies or TV shows. They are even making sequels to movies and TV shows that were never much good to begin with. When there is something fresh and original, it does well. Then every studio tries to turn out a movie just like it, and it rarely works.

There are still lots of good stories to be made, but it's become a lot harder to get them made. Not because producers are too busy stroking their own egos, but because they're too busy counting beans. Movies have become so expensive they're afraid to fail. So they play it safe.

It's the same with publishing. The midlist has disappeared. You have a few blockbuster authors like Stephen King or J.K. Rowling, and a bunch of no-name new authors, and very little in between. In that past, the midlist was a publisher's bread and butter. No more. As a friend of mine in the business put it, publishers now demand a manuscript that is "new and original, and exactly like last year's bestseller."

I think the problem with movies these days is that they are trying too hard to "give us what we want." There's no originality. They're playing it safe. Big name stars, expensive special effects, lots of sequels to previous movies or TV shows. They are even making sequels to movies and TV shows that were never much good to begin with. When there is something fresh and original, it does well. Then every studio tries to turn out a movie just like it, and it rarely works.

Check out the Oscar selections for this past year. All of the movies that are up for "best picture" -- ALL of them -- are "message movies". With niche appeal at best.

The Oscars are a good indicator of what Hollywood thinks is important. But the Box Office is pretty much the only empirical indicator of what the public actually thinks is important.

Sure, you've always got B-movies to factor into the equation. Hollywood used to churn out 1000's of also-ran B-movies back during the Hollywood Golden Age. Those old B-movies didn't typically do very well at the box office, either.

But there is an absolutely crucial difference between then and now. Back then, the major movies -- the movies that Hollywood pushed at the Oscars, et al -- fell in line with public tastes. Even the old B-movies did this. By contrast, the current crop of "pushed" movies run contrary to generally accepted public tastes.

BTW -- in a way, this point represents topic drift -- but it isn't topic drift in regards to the central debate of this thread.

Do you sell what actually sells, or do you prefer to go for your own ideas about what ought to sell? Message edited on: 02/08/2006 14:08

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. Actually, giving people what they need is a better approach. An astute seller can predict what's needed before the public knows they want it (or at least convince them that they need something they didn't know they wanted). There are pathfinders and path followers and the first one makes the most money. The follower just has an easier time convincing somebody else that it's worth taking that same road to get funding. Using the movie analogy, "Star Wars" was by no means an easy sell. Watch the documentary that came with the original trilogy of films or check out one of the books on the making of the first movie. The most successful science fiction movie, prior to "Star Wars" was "2001" and that only made around $20 million from an initial $10 million cost (I'm too lazy to look up the exact figures right now, so feel free to correct them) at the time "Star Wars" was being planned. From any practical standpoint, nobody involved in "Star Wars" expected to top the most successful scifi movie up to that point in time. The only way "Star Wars" got its initial run was for theaters to take it with another movie that Fox expected to be the big film of the year. At that point in time, science fiction was a niche movie genre that wasn't a major moneymaking field unless it was very low budget. "Star Wars" by no means was something the mainstream public was craving to see. Nor was the public anxiously awaiting to see a movie based on old serials, but "Raiders of the Lost Ark" became another blockbuster. It wasn't an easy sell pushing a comedy about a bigot on TV, but Norman Lear succeeded with "All in the Family". You can essentially take any trend and find the seminal moment when a creative talent put something out to the public that it wasn't expecting and did it well enough that the public craved more. There are a lot of less creative folks at the tail end of a trend that lose their shirts when the public finds something else they'd rather have and somebody new is giving it to them. Although some of the same principles apply to Poser content, the other difficult thing to get past is marketing. Movies and TV shows have high visibility and buzz before they come out. I'm always amazed when I see a paid commercial for something like the last "Star Wars" and "Lord of the Rings" movies because the money didn't have to be spent. There was better free publicity for those films on TV news, entertainment, and talk shows, the net, and everywhere else. Poser is a much smaller area of interest and even the biggest Poser events go comparatively unnoticed by users who aren't wired into one of the forums. Creating that new must-have Poser content is only half the battle--marketing it successfully is that larger part of getting it sold. I can sympathize with Davo (post 120) when he has to let DAZ keep 50% of his sales earnings at their site, but he sold more than ten times as many copies as he sold on his site and made five times as much money even after letting DAZ keep half of what was sold. As much as it eats at the soul to let an outside entity profit from one's creative endeavors, that's basically the way it is everywhere from movies to books to selling physical goods. There are agents, publishers, and distributors taking a cut from the artist's creative wares. At least most Poser content providers get to keep the rights to their works unless they sell them outright to somebody. Try to find a CD where the singer retains the copyright. It's a shame that creative talents have to give money to businessmen that sell their products, but it's not an unusual practice and, in most creative venues, keeping 50% is very good. [this site shows a CD royalties rate of 16%, http://www.ascap.com/musicbiz/money-recording.html and here's one showing 10% royalties for a book, http://www.llumina.com/royalty.htm] Getting 50% at DAZ doesn't so so onerous anymore. Whatever anybody wants to say about DAZ, they're out there trying to increase the Poser market. The more Poser/DAZStudio users there are, the more products will be sold and there will be more content. DAZ has sunk hundreds of thousands of dollars into providing a free posing/rendering program to entice new users. I can't recall seeing any other company trying to increase the market awareness for Poser content to that degree. I'm stunned when I occasionally read posts here about how that's a horrible thing. I know that DAZ is doing it to increase their sales, but I can't imagine that any content provider would consider introducing new artists to Poser as being a bad thing.

"Whatever anybody wants to say about DAZ, they're out there trying to increase the Poser market." Long time users of Poser and know about Daz know they sell Poser related items. However now that Daz Studio is out there have been several articles in magazines and none of the magazines list anything about Poser, they say things like Daz3D's free Daz Studio program and uses content sold at Daz3D.com. No Poser listing. The online store and product descriptions do not list the items as Poser items, the specific products that are for Daz Studio have a "requires Daz Studio". Rare brokered items list requires Poser 5 or Poser 6 in the descriptions. okay so why am I going on and on. Well Daz3D adversiting and various posts have said that they are "trying to increase the poser community" There is no link to efrontier and they do not sell Poser at the site. Daz is about selling there figures and content for those figures as well as other content. Daz is not about building the community, Daz is about building on Daz as they should be as a business. one of the questions in post #1 was what abotu other stores. efrontier has links to other stores, renderosity, runtimedna etc, and content paradise partnerships for selling items. If a merchant wants more exposure hooking up with efrontier either as a link or a partnered merchant will give you more exposure at the site that sells Poser. the people in the various forums are a very small (yet vocal most of the time) part of the poser community and purchase items. If you really want more exposure hooking up and riding on the coat tail of efrontier or brokering at rendersoty and making sure that it's listed at content paraside will let you get more exposure. then again my Magic 8 Ball just told me "Outlook not so good" so what do I know.

Re:If you really want more exposure hooking up and riding on the coat tail of efrontier or brokering at rendersoty and making sure that it's listed at content paraside will let you get more exposure. I have no idea what sort of a percentage ContentParadise takes. I do know that as a customer it now makes it easier , for me atleast, to search through many merchants offerings from a single location. R'oisty is my 2nd choice lately. Mainly I guess because I can go through much of what's offered at CP. I agree with the "making sure that it's listed at CP. Passport members are now starting to gain a few benifits at CP. That $5.00 Coupon can be spent on any item. DR

Anyone who knows my work knows I use the K-Family almost exclusively. Between Lady Little Fox and Wardrobe Wizard, I feel the bases are all pretty well covered. Still, if something new comes up for Ichiro 1 or 2, I'm usually first in line with my wallet out, so remember that, okay? :) But if I had to nominate a non-supported mesh in serious need of it, it'd be the P6guy (You're right, BTW: he's a damn impressive piece of work, and fer cryin' out loud, he comes with the program -- you dont get much freer than that, folks).

'I can sympathize with Davo (post 120) when he has to let DAZ keep 50% of his sales earnings at their site' It's a bit OT for this topic, but I don't sympathise with davo at all. Let me be clear about this. I sell through DAZ too, and they take 50% of my earnings, so I'm in the same boat. But for that 50%, DAZ do all the things I don't want to do, like marketing, accounting and all that boring stuff. Not to mention having a large customer base which is growing steadily. Sure, it would be wonderful if artists didn't need businesmen, but they do, and as an artist, all I can do is get the best deal going. Other sites may take slightly less, but they have nowhere near the same sales potential as DAZ. A few people - PhilC, etc - have their own sites, and I wish them luck, but I couldn't be bothered dealing with that side of it, and very few people are well enough known to do that. I've been with DAZ for 4 years and have no complaints. Davo has a point, but in the end, he sells far more through DAZ, and that's the bottom line. Re DAZ and daz studio - Of course they're trying to increase their own market. Only an idiot would believe otherwise. But what's wrong with that? Does anyone think EF started up CP for the benefit of humanity? They take their cut, promote their program, and good luck to them too. It may be nice for the customer to believe that the poser market is a fluffly little community of art lovers. It's even true up to a point. But if customers want easy access to high-quality products at ridiculously low prices, they must also accept that there's a business side to poser. Business by it's very nature is based on competition. And that sometimes leads to resentment, accusations, and all the other stuff we see popping up from time to time. The best thing we can do is try to keep our emotions in check and act like grown-ups. (Not directed at any posters in this thread - just general advice) mac

"Davo has a point, but in the end, he sells far more through DAZ, and that's the bottom line." Regardless of the monetary bottom line, that line isn't necessarily the absolute bottom. Okay, let's consider... What if, for purposes of hypotheticality, there were a company come along that, with loads of funding, managed to drive DAZ out of business and become the only fish around. What if they made merchants feel at home, comfortable, certain, and with heavy marketing and an instant brilliant quality reputation managed to outshine everyone else for long enough to get all the attention and most of the money... a store and brokerage on the same model as DAZ and a few other sites. Every merchant who sold their made twenty time what they would make anywhere else. Now, what if this company then issued a decree that all of their merchants were required to call their representative contact "Sir" or "Ma'am" at all times in conversation. Further, every Thursday they had to appear on webcam wearing a dog collar and play out the "may I have another" scene to the best of their ability. Then add to that they they pick and choose among your stuff, and if they really like an idea, rather than brokering it, they'd hire someone else to make it cheaper and buy it from the other merchant outright. You become an idea mill, and only 1 in 5 things make it in, and never the best ones. Further, the testing proces gets held up on those products for weeks on end while the other contractor finishes their up and releases so when it's finally rejected it looks like you copied the idea, and no one is the wiser. Five or ten merchants, however, are treated as the teacher's pet and such things are never done to them, so there will always be people to shout out how great they are. That would be a hell of a business plan, especially because those 1 in 5 products that make it through would still make 20 times the sales, and the creators would thus be somewhat in thrall. Nobody does that stuff right now, not even anything like it... but if they did, where would that bottom line be? Now consider that being in a state where you totally rely on someone else... of course nothing would ever get that extreme, but even just part of the above as a possibility is scary. The sales figures are not the bottom line. Independence is the bottom line. Being able to do it yourself and at least get by. Because, to be completely honest, if it came to it, any one of us doing this stuff for a living could go put up a resume on monster and get something that makes more money. If the almighty dollar were the real bottom line, none of us would be doing this. No one but the few big companies that make all the money, anyway. Davo: We'd like to discuss the possibilities, and we have a server. We'd also like to discuss some other possibilities, about maybe setting up a whole different way to do this stuff. Maybe a way to sell without a percentage of sales being charged, even.

@ Maclean: My intention is not to bring down Daz and stomp them out of existance, but focus on ways to bring better light to independant merchants who do not mind doing all the work you would rather not do yourself. @ XFX3D: seekergamingsystems.com and I talked about this thread at lenght this afternoon and would welcome a discussion on setting up some kind of ways and means to bring independants to light.

Actually, giving people what they need is a better approach.

shrug The marketplace is littered with the bodies of thoughtful merchants who "just knew" exactly what all of us out here "needed".

An astute seller can predict what's needed before the public knows they want it (or at least convince them that they need something they didn't know they wanted). There are pathfinders and path followers and the first one makes the most money. The follower just has an easier time convincing somebody else that it's worth taking that same road to get funding.

An astute seller just happens to be in the right place at the right time. That's how they earn the title of "astute". In reality, none of them "know" in advance that their product is going to be a sure-fire winner. They can only hope.

Once in a while, someone just happens to shoot with a golden B-B. For those that do: it can be a wonderful experience.

But for the 99.99% of people who have something that they would like to sell to the public -- the best plan is to go with what works. Because it works.

shrug On the other hand -- there's always the old argument of 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'.

But not even Bill Gates had the vaugest concept of what DOS would do for him down the road. After a certain point, the whole thing took on a life of its own -- a life which was largely out of his control.

One should keep in mind that for every Bill Gates success story, there are 100's of 1000's of "Bill Jones's" with an idea that never got off of the ground in the first place. They tried -- and they failed. Miserably in many cases. ONE GUY made it to the top.

You can always strive for the elusive brass ring. But watch out -- it can be an awfully hard blow when somebody else grabs it instead of you.

Using the movie analogy, "Star Wars" was by no means an easy sell. Watch the documentary that came with the original trilogy of films or check out one of the books on the making of the first movie. The most successful science fiction movie, prior to "Star Wars" was "2001" and that only made around $20 million from an initial $10 million cost (I'm too lazy to look up the exact figures right now, so feel free to correct them) at the time "Star Wars" was being planned. From any practical standpoint, nobody involved in "Star Wars" expected to top the most successful scifi movie up to that point in time. The only way "Star Wars" got its initial run was for theaters to take it with another movie that Fox expected to be the big film of the year. At that point in time, science fiction was a niche movie genre that wasn't a major moneymaking field unless it was very low budget. "Star Wars" by no means was something the mainstream public was craving to see. Nor was the public anxiously awaiting to see a movie based on old serials, but "Raiders of the Lost Ark" became another blockbuster. It wasn't an easy sell pushing a comedy about a bigot on TV, but Norman Lear succeeded with "All in the Family".

You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on.

Sure, sci-fi wasn't a particularly respected genre at that time. And as far as the Oscars are concerned: it still isn't respected to this day (nor is the horror genre). But sci-fi was clearly capable of being a commercial success. After all, this had already been demonstrated repeatedly by the mid-1970's. So the success of Star Wars wasn't quite the total out-of-the-blue shot in the dark that you are making it out to be. It's just that -- like Bill Gate's DOS -- no one involved in the project at the time had any concept of just how HUGE the franchise would ultimately end up proving to be.

The general public wanted sci-fi movies. They'd already demonstrated that by the time that Star Wars appeared on the horizon.

As for adventure movies, et al -- hit movies of that genre had already popped up many times in the past, too. Not with the numbers of Raiders, but big hits nonetheless. So the public had previously demonstrated an appetite for that genre, too.

As for Archie Bunk(er) -- the character was a product of his times. I feel safe in submitting that All in the Family wouldn't fly very far today, were it to be offered up as a new show. CSI does. Lost does. And 24 does. But all of those shows are a very, very long way from Archie Bunk and the rest of his ilk that were so popular back in 1971.

Nope -- nowadays, actors like Rush Limbaugh are getting the lion's share of the attention. Not Norman Lear -- except within the body of individuals that happen to be of his ideological bent already.

The times, they have a'changed.

You can essentially take any trend and find the seminal moment when a creative talent put something out to the public that it wasn't expecting and did it well enough that the public craved more. There are a lot of less creative folks at the tail end of a trend that lose their shirts when the public finds something else they'd rather have and somebody new is giving it to them.

Chicken or the egg?

Once again -- the Golden BB effect can be a wonderful thing. But it's a crap shoot. Not a sure thing. Never a sure thing. No matter how "creative" the persons behind it happen to be. The creative artist is still at the mercy of the fickle public.

But speaking of fickle.......

Throughout all of human history, V3 has never once gone out of style yet -- if you know what I mean.

So, I'd say that V3 -- and others like her -- are a pretty safe bet.

XFX3d and davo, Just to be perfectly clear about this, I'm not dissing davo, and I know he wasn't taking a shot at DAZ either. The topic of his post was a real life situation and that's what my reply addressed. Surreal scenarios about merchants wearing dog collars just don't come into it. We're talking reality here. The 'bottom line' I described was the financial gain in davo's case. It is NOT necessarily the bottom line for him, me or anyone else. I do this for a living, but if I didn't enjoy it, I'd go back to being a photographer. If I didn't care about the quality of my products, I wouldn't spend an average of 3 months on each one, tweaking, testing and improving them. And finally, if I was chasing the dollar, I wouldn't make houses and furniture - I'd be in the nekkid warrior and temple market. But XFX3d is 100% correct about merchants not knowing what will sell. Nobody can say for certain. If we knew what would make a guaranteed top-seller, we'd all be doing it, and there would be no variety at all in poser content. The simple truth is that most merchants make what they enjoy doing, whether it be clothes, characters, environments or aardvarks. I seriously doubt any poser merchant slogs away at stuff he loathes just to make a buck. It would be far more profitable to move into other areas of 3d or graphic arts. The fact is that most poser content is grossly underpriced for the amount of work involved, and let's not forget it. I think a site of independent merchants would be an excellent idea. Despite being loyal to DAZ (up to a point), I always see competition as a good thing. If DAZ stay at the top too long without any threat, they'll become complacent. So the more alternatives there are, the better. mac

Something else I thought of the other day, is that the poser market is no different then any other. Think of sodas... what brands do you think o ffirst? Coke and Pepsi... and then everyone else. Think of cameras... 2 or 3 brands pop in riht away, tand then there are "the rest". Cars?? same thing. Almost every market you can think of is dominated by a handful for BIG entities, and then there are "the rest".

First off, I bought WW this weekend because I'm sick of buying one-off clothes for every figure I own, and because most of what I can get free is for V3, a model I paid full retail for and have never, ever used. (I used Steph and Steph Petite till Judy came along, then added her. Rarely used Barbie... er, Vickie 2, either.) I have bought clothes and props for Jessi, which is my main model, and I would buy stuff for the other P6 guys. (Did anyone ever make anything for a P5 child? Ever?) I bought AM the moment it was released, and I expect I will use it eventually, but not yet. Miki on release and I buy stuff for her and use her. I'd have bought Koji if ef had priced him better. Still might one of these days. I have a few Aeon critters that haven't gotten much use, but I bought them for the same reason I bought WW, to leverage my other DAZ investments. And yes, I would pre-order Venus on the strength of AM. That said, I have spent at most $20 at DAZ in the last year since letting my PC expire. They don't give people what they want or need; they sell wanting. How many of you "wanted" a bunch of hokey "Dragon World" costumes with B movie taglines? 3D potato chips. It's like McDonald's: Everybody hates 'em and disses the food, but we all go there. Not because we WANT a cardboard burger, but because everybody goes there. I quit trusting DAZ products when they clogged up my runtime with !V3 folders. And I quit trusting DAZ (and yes, this is a PERSONAL promise!!!) when sleazemeister marketing decided to mug us with a clownfish. Nice muggers are still muggers, even if they decide mugging is not good business. They make some good stuff, and I buy it if I need it. I bought the Castle kit a few weeks ago. But I glance at the "people just bought" stuff at the bottom of the page, and it's obvious that their market is driven by perceived need. If they did a miserably rigged vampire mole with blurred textures, people would suddenly realize that they WANTED a vampire mole!!! Pathetic, but welcome to ConsumerLand. M

Re:I have bought clothes and props for Jessi, which is my main model, and I would buy stuff for the other P6 guys. Yes, you want to support Characters, other than Daz, why not support the P5 or P6 Characters??? Daz has - DS & Free Figures Poser has - Poser 4,PP,P5 & P6 and Free Figures Everyone that has bought Poser 5 or Poser 6 has those Free Figures as well. No one has to go out and create a new character. Make better morphs & textures for Jessi, James, Miki & Koji. There are a few out there. Don't like the shape of Jessi's Head, make some changes for sale. Quite frankly I haven't bought spit from Daz in the past several months. I haven't seen anything to entice me to spend the money. I have been spending my several hundred dollars on James, Jessi, Miki and Koji. There does seem to be a trickle of support that is growing. I applaud those merchants, just to name a few who have taken a chance on Miki and some of the other P6 Figures. outoftouch Posermatic idler168 Fenrissa_ serpentis Freja Rhiannon Ravenhair nekoja lyrainbow karanta Firebirdz RuntimeDNA Cheers DR

"You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on." Xenophonz, seeing he specifically mentioned 2001 in the paragraph you replied to, we need to assert that no, he really didn't seem to be implying that.

You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on. It depends on how you want to define successful. "2001" was successful, but not the same boxoffice success of more conventional movies of the time. "Star Trek" got cancelled in its second season and brought back to limp through a third before being cancelled for good. Luckily, that third season is what allowed it to have enough episodes to get into syndication and find a new and larger audience. Here's a neat site listing the longest running weekly series: http://www.angelfire.com/trek/proutsy/ http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm Boxoffice sales, adjusted for ticket price inflation, don't show a single pre-"Star Wars" science fiction movie in the top 100. There was little reason for anybody to expect "Star Wars" to become the phenomenom that it did. There were a lot of people hoping that it would be successful enough to invigorate the genre. If you get a chance, try to watch "Empire of Dreams" when it's rerun on A&E or watch the uncut version of it on the trilogy DVD. The creative team behind "Star Wars" expected the movie to make a profit, but what happened still exceeded anybody's expectations--and there was more than one studio bigwig that wanted to pull the plug on the movie before more money was lost. One thing I hadn't known was that George Lucas' deal to trade some of his salary for merchandising rites wasn't based on any great prescience of what would come as much as a belief that he could do a better job of using the toys to help sell the movie than the studio would. Up till then, movie merchandising wasn't very successful. > Throughout all of human history, V3 has never once gone out of style yet -- if you know what I mean. V1 & V2 went out of style when V3 was released and the same will happen to V3 when V4 comes out. They're all evolutions of the same figure and you're right that they're sure bets for clothing sales, but I wouldn't want to make my bets that a half dozen years old Poser figure has enough of "all of human history" behind it to gauge what's popular for the rest of human history. Nobody expected Westerns to go away forty years ago. Not many industry experts expect them to make a comeback today. A lot of entertainment experts said that sitcoms were dead twenty years ago and then the "Cosby Show" came out and proved them wrong. If there were only a single-minded obsessivenes in only making Vicki products, the Poser market would choke itself to death. Fortunately, there are content creators providing other products, different characters, props, environments, etc. that allow artists to readily create full-fledged 3D scenes. It's that variety that keeps Poser interesting. DAZ used to have a listing of their top selling products, that I can't find anymore, but they weren't all Vicki products. I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system.

RE: I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system. This may be part of What would it take - to get the Independent creators together?? The very nature of their independence could be a road block. I agree that it would certainly increase their visibilty. Cheers DR

I think that a website that would act as a catalog with a single thumbnail representing each of the independants product, which, when clicked upon, would take the prospective customer directly to the independant merchants website. The independants merchants can be just as independant and creative as they would like to be, on their own website, with their own bandwidth and their own merchant account/payment method. Things to discuss would be who would run/host/maintain the website, what kind of format/software to use, what kind of fees would be imposed to have a page on the website, what kind of search/categorization tools will be available etc. What kind of banner rotation system, image sizes, page setups etc. I'd really be happy to discuss this with any and all independant merchants. Maybe I could set up a free forum somewhere to get discussion going. Davo

Re:I think that a website that would act as a catalog with a single thumbnail representing each of the independants product, which, when clicked upon, would take the prospective customer directly to the independant merchants website. Sort of similar to what ContentParadise is doing now, but there would be No Sales on the Catalog Website. I just read this in the CP Forum. Not certain what to make of it. It atleast sounds like EF is attempting to move forward here. CP Passport members will be receiving this mystery woman Free, prior to it's public release. [Quote] Were currently working on standardizing character development with the idea that there are several types of users with specific needs. We are also looking forward to future versions of Poser and in doing so there are many considerations. Were looking for that Holy Grail that is an extremely natural bending and versatile character. One that maintains simplicity that caters to posing and animation, as well as content creators. [UnQuote] DR

Xenophonz, seeing he specifically mentioned 2001 in the paragraph you replied to, we need to assert that no, he really didn't seem to be implying that.

This is to miss my point.

He seemed to be implying that Star Wars was some sort of a totally unknown quantity at the time -- territory where no one else had ever trod before. Well -- they had. Sure, not with the numbers of Star Wars: but I would submit that no one could have predicted that sort of phenomenon in advance. The producers of Star Wars certainly didn't.

It was a golden B-B. Or a golden arrow. Take your pick. Star Wars just happened to hit in the right place at the right time. But from the point of view of the movie's creators: it was largely a chance occurance. Not something that they had specifically planned for. Their goal at the time was to make a modestly successful sci-fi movie. Instead, the thing jumped right out of their hands -- and took on a life of its own far, far beyond their wildest expectations.

This did not happen because George Lucas figured out in advance that the public "needed" Star Wars. It simply happened because it happened. Not because of Lucas being some sort of a prophet.

BTW - the Star Wars phenomenon which we are discussing so thoroughly is notable because of its very uniqueness. Few others have come close to duplicating it. Even other wildly successful movies like Titanic haven't had anywhere near the long-term pop cultural impact that the original Star Wars trilogy continues to have to this day (Note that I said the original Star Wars trilogy -- not what they've done with (to?) the franchise since then.).

Boxoffice sales, adjusted for ticket price inflation, don't show a single pre-"Star Wars" science fiction movie in the top 100. There was little reason for anybody to expect "Star Wars" to become the phenomenom that it did.

Very true. And I indicated pretty much the same point in my previous post; outside of the "top 100" issue which you've mentioned here.

You are correct -- no one could have predicted that what happened with Star Wars would happen. Not the entertainment press at the time; not the Hollywood insiders; and not the people who produced the film. It just hit a spark with the public -- because the time & the place had come for it.

But it wasn't due to any sort of prophetic foreknowledge on the part of George Lucas. Sure -- he worked hard at it. So did the producers of countless other well-done movies. But unlike the others, Lucas just happened to land in the right place at the right time. Good for him. But he never once sat down in advance and figured out that the public "needed" Star Wars.

V1 & V2 went out of style when V3 was released and the same will happen to V3 when V4 comes out. They're all evolutions of the same figure and you're right that they're sure bets for clothing sales, but I wouldn't want to make my bets that a half dozen years old Poser figure has enough of "all of human history" behind it to gauge what's popular for the rest of human history.

OK -- now this really is totally missing my point. Obviously, you didn't quite catch what I meant.......

I was using "V3" as an archetype. An archetype for female beauty in all of its incarnations throughout the ages. And no......she's never gone out of style. Not once.

Bring on V4! Bring on VENUS! I'm all for obsoleting the currently-popular mesh known as V3.

But the concept behind "V3" will always be there -- in one form or another. And always as popular as ever.

If there were only a single-minded obsessivenes in only making Vicki products, the Poser market would choke itself to death. Fortunately, there are content creators providing other products, different characters, props, environments, etc. that allow artists to readily create full-fledged 3D scenes. It's that variety that keeps Poser interesting. DAZ used to have a listing of their top selling products, that I can't find anymore, but they weren't all Vicki products.

We have no argument on this point. I agree with you 100%. We all need good cities, houses, spaceships, automobiles, boats, etc.....etc.....etc.... to stick our V3's into. After all, no scene would be complete without the appropriate background supporting the central figure of V3.

;)

Look -- this is my beef here: I frankly get tired of the repeated whining coming down from those who constantly complain about V3's dominance of the Poser market.

Typically, one tends to hear from the unhappy. Not from the 95% of the satisfied. The satisfied tend to express their humble opinion by buying things en masse from those merchants who are smart enough to take advantage of the natural flow of things -- and not from those unhappy individuals who constantly (and unsuccessfully) are always trying to buck the public's obvious taste. It might not happen to be the individual merchant's taste -- but it IS the majority of the public's taste. So it's what sells.

Learn the rule, or not -- it's all a matter of individual choice. But at least in THIS case, while the results might never be 100% predictable....nothing in life ever is.......but this is the way to bet. shrug Sometimes, "safe bets" don't pay off. But they usually do.

I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system.

That idea is fine with me, too. Go for it. I'll probably buy things from them.

Who knows? Perhaps they'll end up creating another Renderosity..........with themselves in charge of it. So that others can then rebel against the "old guard" (who were once known as "mavericks") for being "too big & successful" on down the road.

It's all in the principle of the thing, you see....... Message edited on: 02/09/2006 12:24

Any entity that is going to challenge DAZ is going to have to be well-run and well-FUNDED. Even then, they are looking at best at capturing a portion of DAZ's market share. Over time, they could capture an increasingly bigger chunk, but only if they keep at it and keep getting it right. They're also going to have to make strategic decisisions, some of which might rub people the wrong way. What then? To join any kind of collective you must sacrifice some level of independence. I think Mariner hit the nail on the head.

Maybe what's needed isn't a artist's co-op, but a MARKETING co-op. (Seems to be what you are hinting at, davo.) Members would maintain their own product lines and websites, with the co-op focusing on attracting business for its members, and possibly offering services such as website setup help and payment transaction processing. Membership in the co-op could then be a fixed business expense instead of a percentage of profits.

As a requirement of membership, artists would be expected to participate in certain well-defined ways (submitting to a cutomer-complaints arbitration process, contributing promotional items, displaying co-op co-branding prominently on their website, etc.) The co-op would be motivated to attract more members, and less likely to fall into a closed circle of powerful insiders fighting out their personal ego-wars. (Yes, I know it's as hard to imagine such a thing happening in the Poser community as it is to imagine an artist with a big ego, but indulge me here ;-)

BTW - About TrueValue vs. Home Depot. Isn't that kind of like what we're talking about here? TrueValue hardware stores are locally owned, I believe, or at least franchises - but they get the marketing clout and brand recognition that comes with the nationally-advertised TrueValue name. It's at least possible that TrueValue kept Home Depot from wiping out the local hardware store in the way that Blockbuster wiped out the local video store.

• Jimdoria ~@>@

Message edited on: 02/09/2006 12:31

BTW - human beings "need" air, food, water, shelter, clothing, occasional medicine.....and companionship.

Go much beyond that rather short list: and you are getting into "want/desire" territory. Not "need".

Admittedly, wants & desires can be extremely powerful (and often destructive -- sometimes constructive) things. But wants & desires cannot by rights be defined as "needs".

I want a lot of Davo's superb models. And so I'll buy them from him. Because he's supplying me with things that I want.

But I can't honestly say that I actually need any of them.

Message edited on: 02/09/2006 14:06

This just ain't no fun no more.

well, I'm not a merchant, but as a consumer, I think it would be great to have a site to go to that advertises the new products coming out from a group of independent merchants. You guys do advertise here, and DAZ to a certain extent, but most of the time its more from word of mouth, (or word of posting). Plus I'm surprised either place allows any outside vendor advertising, especially rendo, but its probably good in DAZ's case , as most of the stuff supports the products they sell. From the independent end, though, how would you get the word out to all the possible consumers? Banner ads everywhere for sure. Maybe an affiliate program. You need to get box ads within the Poser package, which means support from EF, which also means you would have to support the Poser stock figures to a certain extent. How do you reach the people that buy Poser but have no clue there is even an outside market? Get the sales list from EF ? Is there a way to get a banner on Amazon? Advertise in 3D World ? Maybe the Parent site could take 10-25% of the revenue that would be used for advertsing, site upkeep, etc. That would still allow the merchants the majority of the sales in their pockets, but they would not have to worry about advertsing

scratched head...kinda thought they did that in themarket place here but then maybe i missed something...in the seachable data base....

I think people will support whatever they want to. I know that sounds over ssimplified, but trendy isn't to be under estimated. There are many forms of support aside from financial. Releasing Apollo showed me a very dark side to many people I always thought to be fairly likeable. There are vast inventories and product bases invested in the Millenium line people don't want to see jeaporadized. Gareee, For the record Apollo was originally going to be brokered at Daz. This failed to happend for 2 reasons. 1) They wanted to back out of a signed agreement to a never before offered 60% broker split if I returned to them. I have the signed document which obviously never went into effect. 2) I found out from a staff member about an internal discussion to discontinue the Apollo in a few months if his purchase couldn't be coerced. Just like what they did to Dodger and would have done to Koshini. The joke was called "Minimize Maximus". But what would I know. Now if you see this as a mistake on my part, then I beg your pardon.

Hello, Anton.

If you ever put Venus up for sale, then I will buy her from you. I believe that a lot of other people would, too.

I feel certain that she'd be up to your usual excellent standards in every way.

Have a good one........

Ditto here about Venus if you decide to do it, Anton. You do great work. Interesting info on your AM experience. Just one more reason not to buy from daz: 'principle', regardless what their mouthpieces say.

Hey -- I'll buy V4 from DAZ, too.

As far as the inside politics surrounding the "figure fight" issue are concerned - I refuse to take a side. I don't have a dog in that particular fight. And frankly: it's none of my affair anyway.

If it's good product, then I'll be interested. I ain't pre-judged-issed.

Venus would be a sure-fire winner with me. So will V4 -- or whatever else DAZ chooses to call her.

To me, this issue isn't an either/or construct. There's no reason why I can't have BOTH figures, plus many others......and be happy with all of them.

But that's just me.

Goodnight, folks. See you in another 11 or 12 hours. Or so.

I think people will support whatever they want to. I know that sounds over simplified, but trendy isn't to be under estimated. You probably shouldn't stop short with that belief. It's important to understand customer buying habits to better feed products to those customers. I don't know if any of my observations can help. The Poser market is different today than what it was five years ago. Older Poser buyers were used to paying $30-$60 apiece for content. Newer customers, like me, aren't used to paying that much for anything. One thought for widening Apollo's user base would be to break the figure up to smaller marketable packages. The sum cost of all the pieces can be a little more than what's bundled with Apollo today to make the bundle still the deal to get. The main Apollo figure should be inexpensive so that more people will buy him and potentially want to buy more. The market potential for Apollo is only as good as the base of customers that own the figure. Nobody, that doesn't own the figure, is buying any Apollo products. More importantly, there aren't a lot of freebie users making Apollo products and I can only guess it's because they likewise do not own the figure. I'd suggest giving Apollo away to the more prominent community members, doing clothing freebies, to help invigorate community support for the figure. Apollo's cost has stopped me from buying the figure. I don't have enough time to do a lot of Poser artwork, so it's hard to justify the initial cost investment even though it may be a better deal in the long run. Apollo's base figure may be a better deal than Michael 3 after adding all the products together, but it's still too expensive. I buy new DAZ figures maximizing vouchers, coupons, and sales, so I'm not paying the individual prices. I've got figures I can use, so I'm in no hurry to buy the figure, head morphs, body morphs, textures, and hairs all at once. I can wait till there's a sale and PC voucher to drop the price to a few dollars. Enough people still have to have everything right away, so it's remains a viable marketing strategy for DAZ. Even if I buy the figure, it doesn't mean that I'll use the figure. There's only so much time in any week that I can devote to doing Poser art and the time to learn something new comes at the expense of doing something creative. My first inclination is going to be to use the figure that I've got the clothing for. I can always try to use Wardrobe Wizard to convert something to Apollo, but that's a hit-or-miss proposition depending on what clothing item is being used and, even when it works right, there's still some investment in time to make it happen. Unless I happen to be posing Michael in a way that the bend problems annoy me, I probably won't bother using Apollo. If the bends start bothering me, I might try Apollo and be happy enough with the results that it's worth the trip to WW to try getting the clothing I want to use onto him. The entropy of using what we're comfortable with is a hard thing to break. Something has to be really much better than what I'm using, or more quickly suitable for the drawing I want to do, to break my habit of using what I'm used to working with. Getting me to break those habits is hard to do. The first step of that is getting the new figure into my hands. There aren't any other steps taken till then. After that, it's a matter of educating the community how the new figure is an improvement worth taking the extra time to use more. That is tricky because not everybody has time to read every article in every forum. Again, it's another investment in time that takes time away from other activities. The hard part for you is finding a way to reach me. Those are some of the problems with introducing a new figure. It's hard for me to want to spend much money on a new figure when I already have an adequate figure to work with. DAZ had the good fortune of producing the first advances with Poser figures with Victoria and Michael and those figures have a lot of free and commercial support. Both figures were a significant jump from the old P4 figures. Versions 2 and 3, for those figures have been more modest evolutionary advances and not as significant a jump. Apollo has struck me, from what I've seen and read, as being a bit of a jump from M3, but not so big that I've felt the need to abandon M3 in the same fashion as when I pushed the P4 Male aside for Michael. > 2) I found out from a staff member about an internal discussion to discontinue the Apollo in a few months if his purchase couldn't be coerced. Just like what they did to Dodger and would have done to Koshini. The joke was called "Minimize Maximus". I guess I'm not sure what that means. Were all these producers pushed to sell DAZ their products outright versus remaining brokered items? If that's the case, I can understand reasons for DAZ to want to own figure products that would have wide support, such as human figures and human toon figures. A brokered artist can leave any time with their product and all the ancillary support for those products likewise goes away. That's not a big deal for a prop or clothing item, or even some animals because the loss, at most would only amount to a few items having to be removed once the product was gone. When Koshini was moved to RDNA, dozens of products by many different producers were also removed because of DAZ's policy to not sell products for anything but their figures. In one sense, it's a good business policy to maintain their survival. In another, it's a bad one when shifting policy midstream and alienating artists that had come on board with an agreement that favored them better. Without getting much deeper into the movie analogy, which doesn't equate well with Poser, I was never implying that "Star Wars" created science fiction, but that it created a trend that made science fiction a much more commercially viable product than it had ever been before. "Star Wars" appealed to the mainstream public in ways that "2001" never could. Looking at the top 100 grossing movies, adjusting ticket prices to inflation, there wasn't a single science fiction movie on the list before "Star Wars" and there were 15 on the list after "Star Wars". Every other cinematic genre is represented before "Star Wars", ranging from drama to action to western to comedy to animation, but not a single science fiction movie. There's even two horror films on the list. That's evidence enough for me to say that science fiction movies weren't a fad prior Lucas jumping in (not to mention that I was waiting around back then for good scifi entertainment and not finding much out there other than on the printed page). Right now, westerns aren't trendy, but it doesn't mean that the "Alamo" or "Open Range" weren't released to some level of critical and/or commercial success, but they certainly didn't start a western trend the way "Star Wars" kicked off a big-budget scifi trend. If somebody put out a western that made $400,000 this summer, there would be a good chance that there would be a number of westerns released the following year and that would be the start of a new trend. That doesn't mean westerns didn't enjoy success in the past. It just means that they're not fashionable now, so less get made and it's harder to get them the kind of budget that today's trendy movies can command. When Lucas made "Star Wars", he was starting a trend, not following one. It wasn't intentional. He was only trying to make a movie that he'd like to see. That's the way it is with most creative artists. They're not trying to follow trends. They're following their own personal muses. An artist, making a living, tends to be more beholden to what is fashionable in whatever circles they're working in, but there are usually ways to be creative even within the confines of what customers are willing to pay for. Relating trends in movies to trends in Poser is mixing apples and oranges. There's a difference in practical usage because sticking with already owned figures vs. purchasing new figures makes sense over watching one genre vs. another. When I don't want to invest in a new Poser human figure, it's not because I'm afraid that I'm not using what's fashionable. It's because I already have something that works and don't need to spend more money on a figure that I don't perceive as being so much better to justify the cost. If I didn't already own M2 or M3, Apollo would be a more serious purchase consideration. I don't have the same concerns with movies. If I had only one to watch, "Return of the King" or "Open Range", I'd lean to fantasy over western. There was no reason to not see both movies and they were both great in different ways. Buying Apollo is more akin to buying a new computer--I know there's a better one than what I have, but I've already got one that works and I'd rather save the money. Besides, both EFrontier and DAZ are supposed to be working on significantly improved posing figures that will have new technical advances beyond what their respective posing software use today. That's makes any new figure investments today questionable because today's figures are limited by what Poser and Studio can do today. If anybody's interested in science fiction film grosses, here's an interesting link: http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/ScienceFiction.php

Apollo Max, Apollo Max, Apollo Max, Apollo Max...... He can be so many male characters; young, old, large, small. No need to buy a child figure - Apollo can scale and morph to be a child. For me he represents what a good base figure should be - versatile. If there's one figure that actually comes close to the marketing E-Frontier uses for James (that from him you can make any character you can imagine), then it's Apollo. He so needs product support. One day (soon I hope) Anton will release his female counterpart.