MartinC - thanks for a great post (and thread). JKeller - thanks for struggling to keep it rational and based in fact. All very interesting...

a_super_hero, I honestly don't know how, but as Robert Belton replied earlier in this thread, VBox is already doing this. So it is possible

Anthony, if CL found out about it 2 weeks ago, they may still be in the process of taking it down. There's no magic switch they can flip to shut a website down. And maybe they're watching that warez site to lead them to bigger fish?

And this sort of security won't stop warezing of Poser, as soon as someone makes a hacked version without the code that checks for the code number. That sort of hacking was happening even back in ancient times when DOS 5 was the latest thing for PC's :: at work I saw someone with a copy of the old Autocad for DOS hacked so it didn't need a dongle.

I buy PC #1, and load Poser on it. After a while #1 crashes or is stolen or destroyed in a fire, or merely I decide to buy a better computer, namely PC #2. I try to install Poser on #2. It refuses, and says that I already have Poser on #1. How to I convince that CL that Poser is no longer on PC #1? Or must I buy a new copy of Poser every time?

JKeller - thanks for struggling to keep it rational and based in fact. Actually... I don't know that anyone is basing anything in this thread on fact... =) Since Curious Labs has been curiously silent... I wonder what the real story is. I have emailed them this thread and asked that they have someone stop by to set the record straight. We'll see if anyone does.

ookami, re-read that same paragraph you just quoted from me. If you don't have internet access on that machine, you just call them for an unlock code.- - - - - -

Uh... no... THAT was my point exactly! Now I have to call them... joy... joy! Do I WANT to call them?! NO! Do I WANT to waste my time on hold or talking to someone... I have better things to do with my time than to sit on the phone waiting around for an unlock code for a $300 piece of software.- - - - - -

And here in England I would have to make a transAtlantic phone call, late in the evening UK time to be in California office hours. Big negatory on that.

JKeller wrote: "Anthony, if CL found out about it 2 weeks ago, they may still be in the process of taking it down. There's no magic switch they can flip to shut a website down. And maybe they're watching that warez site to lead them to bigger fish?" I'll give you another example of the response I got from CL on letting them know of the illegal use of Poser Models in the Blender file format that where available for download. The response I got "they have probably developed a pz3 import plugin". Did not even see any recognition in the reply to the fact that they where available for download! Are they still there? Yes...and I reported this months ago! As people have already mentioned, it is us honest users who get screwed in the end...even when we try to help out. Cheers

Here's my two cents on cracked stuff. I have seen a version of max that has what is called a cracked dongle. Basically what it does, is fool the security program that max comes with into thinking there is a dongle on the computer. In fact, you can't even use the cracked dongle version without installing the security program (in this case, Sentinal). It is only a matter of time before something similar is found to circumvent this new way of doing things. In fact, in the end, I'd bet that legit users of PPP or Poser 5, resort to some of these methods of hacking, if only to prevent any headaches that arise from this new security. Dragontales

In fact, in the end, I'd bet that legit users of PPP or Poser 5, resort to some of these methods of hacking, if only to prevent any headaches that arise from this new security. LOL! You are probably right.

I don't know if announcing it publicly in their newsletter or discussing it with members in various threads in the forums qualifies as "curiously silent." This thread was just posted this morning, so I don't think it's a case of them avoiding the issue.

At any rate I was looking for the correct e-mail address to send this thread to earlier, thanks for doing that, ookami.

Just as an aside, does anyone remember buying 3Dexplorer with the promise that you would get lifetime free upgrades? And now Right Hemisphere owns it and NO MORE FREE UPGRADES. The promise of a company is vapor, and I am tired of promises of support. Look at MetaCreations. The bottom line is the bottom dollar, no matter how loyal you are you will still get screwed by this. Sorry, I have lost all trust in these companies. Marque

At least be fair and recognize the fact that after MC dumped Poser, it was Larry, Steve and the Poser dev gang that formed Curious Labs and they are still supporting Poser today. They have supported all the different forums around here as well as many of the independent developers. We've been loyal to them, and they've been loyal back.

At least be fair and recognize that they made a business decision. I bought the pro pack and was going to upgrade to Poser 5. Had nothing to do with loyalty to us....please..think about what you just said. They kicked the pro pack out with multiple bugs that they knew about, and they have as yet to get the bugs fixed. I can't believe you think they are loyal to us just because they sell us a product. Man did you ever buy into it. Marque

At least be fair and recognize the fact that after MC dumped Poser, it was Larry, Steve and the Poser dev gang that formed Curious Labs and they are still supporting Poser today. They have supported all the different forums around here as well as many of the independent developers. We've been loyal to them, and they've been loyal back. Until I heard about this new "copy protection" I would have agreed. Now it just feels like they were setting me up for the big fall. I've been a Poser user since it was just Poser. I've faithfully upgraded my Poser until I lost my originals... then I went out and bought a new copy. I think it's a great program. But if they are really going to try and pull this bullsht on me, they're off my Christmas card list... PERMANENTLY. Look at it this way... if I'm married, and my wife is great, and for the last few years she's been a great and supportive wife... and then you find out that she's just screwed your best friend... um... somehow, all that support she's given you doesn't mean so much. Yes... I know... EXTREME example... but HELL... I've used Poser longer than I've been married... and now the company that I've been faithfully supporting is trying to pull this sht?! I'm sorry... that doesn't scan with me.

Here's the link http://www.curiouslabs.com/labReport/features/stories/html/locksUpdaters.html Pretty much says it all. Marque

Thanks for the link Marque. You're right... I read it on their site. RENAME THIS THREAD TO: CURIOUS LABS TELLS ITS LOYAL USERS TO BEND OVER!

Actually, I just got word that the new software dongle has nothing to do with warez at all. In fact its real purpose is just to make ookami's life a living hell. Here's a list of some of the as-of-yet undocumented features in the new update:

Eye point has been fixed so Poser figures will watch ookami everywhere he goes.

New export feature to get Posette out of the ookami's machine so she can cheat on him with his best friend.

Contains a .wav copy of the erased Nixon tapes.

I automatically set to crash on anyone when they use bold and italics way too much when posting online.

I'm sorry ookami. You are completely right. This whole thing is just to screw you over. I'm sorry I didn't see that before.

Actually, I just got word that the new software dongle has nothing to do with warez at all. In fact its real purpose is just to make ookami's life a living hell. FINALLY... SOMEONE ADMITS IT!!! I KNEW IT!!! I JUST KNEW IT!!! My therapist has tried to convince me that it was all in my head... but now I can print this out and show it to him! Eye point has been fixed so Poser figures will watch ookami everywhere he goes. Huh?! They do that already!!! New export feature to get Posette out of the ookami's machine so she can cheat on him with his best friend. EX-Best friend... after that fiasco with my wife, you don't really think I'd still be friends with him?! =) Contains a .wav copy of the erased Nixon tapes. BAH! I've already got those! They're sitting right next to my newest Elvis albums... you know... the ones he recorded AFTER he was abducted by aliens! I automatically set to crash on anyone when they use bold and italics way too much when posting online. Now I know you are joking... there's not way...skljsdf .... NO CARRIER

There is something about this policy of Curious Labs that concerns me greatly. They say that piracy is a direct threat to the survival of their company, and so they must apply this security measure to all future offerings from themselves. This implies that if piracy of Poser does continue, then they will go out of business. But, going by precedent, the 'warez crackerz' will crack the protection system, and very soon. After all, they usually launch their latest 'version' of 3DStudio Max at about the same time as Discreet. The cracked version will spread like wildfire, just as widely as previous efforts. It seems inevitable that piracy of Poser will continue, and, if Curious Labs' justification for the protection system is to be believed, it also seems inevitable that they will go out of business. No Curious Labs = no functioning program. Anyone fancy spending hundreds on a drinks coaster? Of course, if this worst scenario does happen and legitimate users want to carry on benefiting from their investment, all they'll need to do is visit www.warezscum.com and download a cracked copy...

And after all this, likeliest someone will make a hacked version that doesn't need the code number, and that version will be all over all the warez sites in a fortnight, and all the nuisance made to legitimate users will have been for nothing.

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me.

Gee I don't see what the issue is here. You go out once when you install and get a verification key. 3D studio makes you call in and get a confirmation code via voice and I've seen worse than this for software. Sure it sucks but its not really CL's fault, its the hackers' fault. We're just stuck with the debris left behind by their "fuck 'em, steal it, why the hell should I care, I can steal it cause I can" attitude. These very same people ask in an earlier thread "Why is stealing so bad?" Well now you know. Should CL go out of business from lost sales? If someone can come up with a better scheme I'm sure CL would love to hear it. I'm in the software industry myself and I know how this stuff gets stolen. CL is NOT a huge company. They can't afford ripped off copies. I do think they SHOULD release the PPP patch WITHOUT copy protection. It was buggy when it went out and a patch should not force this kind of registration. Plus people can get stuff done now with P4 and PPP without the patch, especially if they can render in other packages so it makes little sense. In fact I doubt I could even find my serial number in my pile of computer crap. Now P5 I could see them doing this on. See where the chips fall. You might be surprised how painless the process is. Plus, if they lose sales, they have to correct for that or they go out of business anyway.

Hahahaha! ookami, you don't now how much happier you made me today just because you got my joke and joked back. Thanks.

Hahahaha! ookami, you don't now how much happier you made me today just because you got my joke and joked back. Thanks. Glad I could brighten your day! =)

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me. You get a new drive, new computer, erase your drive, then try to email, snail-mail, call, push a button. One of several things will happen: 1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask? 1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user? 2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes. That's why people are upset.

When will people realize that all these anti-piracy measures are completely useless. With the exception of maybe some proprietary scheme protecting some program that warez hackers aren't interested in anyway, there is no such thing as a copy protection scheme that hasn't been cracked. If anything causes Creative Labs to go out of business, it will be all the money they spend on their futile attempts to prevent piracy. And all these warez people - they're not going to go out and buy the software just because they can't steal it (assuming it's possible to make it so) - they'll find something else to download.

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me. You get a new drive, new computer, erase your drive, then try to email, snail-mail, call, push a button. One of several things will happen: 1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask? 1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user? 2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes. That's why people are upset.

dragon1, about an hour ago in the cubicle next to me someone has just agreed to burn several copies of a Adobe After Effects CD to give to a couple of her friends. She's not a hacker, and your probably wouldn't find her friends visiting warez sites. In fact, they may be inclined to purchase After Effects if it wasn't for this. All she has to do is write down the serial number on the CD and all they copy protection it has is "cracked." This is the type of activity (and it happens a lot) that this type of lock will prevent.

1. You try to contact them and you keep getting busy tone, or an answering machine, or a web site that is too busy to answer, and all the delays that this sort of thing is heir to. And how do they distinguish re-installing it on the same computer from installing it on another computer? ANd, if you install it on another computer, how do they know whether or not the copy on the other computer has been deleted? Then he gets a load of sorry-but from the software firm, etc, and to get away from all this hassle he gives in and resorts to a warez site even if he was very law-abiding minded before.

"1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask?" It won't be anyone that just asks. They will knwo you are bob smith and that your serial number is 567x or whatever. "1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user?" As I said. A letter, etc. If you have the code you will still have the code. No biggie. "2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes." They are trying to impliment this so they DON'T go out of business. If I remember right it was a situation where the day after the Pro Pack was released there was over 3 times as many warez versions of the program as were actually bought. I am not sure on the exact number but it was a stupifying thing.

Well, at last i have could know the reason why CL do this, Cl want everyone get the warez copy of its progran instead the legal copy. CL want all of us go to the warez world, if not, look at this: 1. If you have a warez copy of poser 5 you will can make things with this copy without calls or headaches. 2. If you have a legal copy of Poser 5, then you will spend more time doing thing this version works than working in it. I repeat other time, for me, poser 4 is the last version of poser. Thanks CL.

Like I said. I don't see what all the fuss is over. It is basically doing what every other software company does. 1, 2, 3 done ...

This system seems fine and simple in theory, but in practice it will develop faults and snags and penalize people who don't have easy internet access and so will be least able to get a hacked verwion as warez instead. The result will be non-productive or counter-productive.

Ironically, it seems that all I have to do to precipitate a firestorm online is either be out on the road or on vacation. This time, I'm on the road in Germany, jetlagged and with limited connection times, working with our parent company to share our business plans for the future. It's hard to sort through the rhetoric and the legitimate questions in this thread, and the thread, sadly, seems to have devolved. I will start a new thread to specifically address security questions. As it is 11:30 PM here in Germany as of this writing, I'm not certain how much more time tonight I can devote to this, please accept my apologies. Sincerely, Steve Cooper President, Curious Labs

How will people get a hacked version of warez if they don't have easy internet access? It would be much easier for them to legitimately authorize their copy.

Thanks Steve ...

I agree, lets try to keep this at a rational level. Like many others, I do see a problem with the software dongal. They made a statement to the effect that hardware dongals are expensive, "Hardware dongles are very expensive, more than what it costs us to print the full Poser 4 box, manual, CDs and CD sleeve." But how much is that in real money? How expensive is expensive- like $20? like $50? I once bought a discontiuned program, I forget what it was, but it was only $10 or so, and it came with a dongal, I somehow can't belive they are all that much more expensive than $20. I wouldn't mind paying half the difference, say $10, if it came to that. What I'm saying is no dongal at all would be best, but a hardware one would be better than a software one. And on the subject of Warez, I wonder if they have anything planned to protect the sales of people like Phil C, Anton, DAZ and myself, maybe something like embedding the serial number of Poser in a CR2 the first time a new item was opened, so warez could be tracked down? It isn't just a Curious Labs problem, it is an industry wide problem.

They can't. But for the same reason they will have trouble and delays registering a legitimate copy. Someone above wrote about registering by sending CL a letter. A letter!? Snail mail!?!?!? I know all too well how long snail mail takes to get from Manchester (UK) to e.g. California and back. I fully understand and sympathize with Curious Labs's problems with warezing and such piracy and the need for the fight against warez; but there is a limit to sensible security without awakening the law of diminishing returns. It is the same with shops that double and triple check customers' identities before accepting a cheque. Please, keep the present system that Poser 4 has. Surely, if e.g. http://www.qwertyuiop.com or whatever starts offering warez, there must be some way to find where its server is physically and send the law in?

Jim Burton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on the subject of Warez, I wonder if they have anything planned to protect the sales of people like Phil C, Anton, DAZ and myself, <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Don't forget Jim, if CL go under and there's no way of getting an activation code, your products will be just as frelled as any version of Poser after 4.03...

Software companies come and go, but the software should remain usable. This type of copy protection is a NO-WIN situation for legitimate customers. When Curious Labs dies, my software DIES. THAT, is the real heart of the problem with this form of copy protection. Sure, I may be able to use the program on my old machine. But I upgrade about every other year. Once I upgrade in order to better use the latest version of a program, if the developer of that program is no longer in business, then I'm out of the hard earned money I've spent. This is a hobbie for me. I hope to make it a career. Now that I've heard many other major software companies have this form of protection, it will make my purchase of a high-end program more difficult. Thanks for the information folks. The points of hassles with contacting CL for codes, etc, has been interesting. But this is one fact that cannot be disputed. Once CL goes bye-bye, so does their software, and I can't afford to lose that kind of money. TygerCub one less potential customer

They said the hardware dongles also represent a problem with personale and even cats. My cat might decide it is a toy. Dead program. And I remember he said that when Meta did what it did there was a ton of legitimate copies of MAZ that became useless because peopel swipped the dongles. Kind of like the Clinton people pulling the "w" of the computer when they left. Stupid but it happened.

Program protection devices are no more effective than burglar alarms or security locks. There is not one that cannot be broken; jury-rigged or otherwise overcome. Sure, you can build a lock or security system like Fort Knox that will stop most would-be-thieves. But who wants a BMW car that takes 20 minutes to get into because of all the security devices? Watch the sales of BMW's decline. Many companies whose products cost far more than Poser have invested very large amounts of money in program protection. There is not a single example of popular highly secure software in existence that was not cracked, rigged, had its execute files re-written by a patch removing the protection and time-outs, had software emulation replace its hardware dongle etc. etc. by the pirates within a month of its release. Some of the pirating has been so sophisticated that the pirates have, in some cases, re-written significant portions of the program to make it work. It must be remembered that the software crackers are not Poser or graphic artists, but are, in most cases, would-be-programmers. Their interest lies in how programs are written and protected. The harder the task the greater the challenge. Add a highly popular program like Poser to this equation and I will give 10 to 1 odds that there will be a working crack, patch or whatever within days of its release. By making it more difficult every cracking group in existence will be attracted to it and want to be the first to crack it. The only real deterrent to warez is to target the people distributing it and using it. This means active policing of the warez outlets and sites and willingness by software companies to do this and prosecute offenders. Piracy will only be reduced when there is a serious likelihood of the pirates being caught and of facing real penalties (either civil or criminal) for their transgressions. The only real deterrent is FEAR. Nothing else works. Nothing else will work. As long as the deterrent is a program protection device the pirates will smile and continue as before. In the meantime the honest customers will be put through the hoops. Yep, just like that highly secure BMW. Regards STORM

I agree with what you are saying STORM, but hackerz, crackerz and warez sites are not the only means by which software is being illegally distributed. Much of it is much more casual than that. You don't need any hacking skillz to burn a CD and write a serial number on it. Read my reply to dragon1 a little ways up in this thread.

The only real deterrent to warez is to target the people distributing it and using it Ditto. If police can track paedophilia WWW sites to their physical locations and send men in and seize their servers, as in some cases that have been on UK TV news, they can do the same with warez sites. hackerz, crackerz and warez sites are not the only means by which software is being illegally distributed ... [casual copying] ... I know, but "three sides of a polder is no use, however well built, the sea still gets in where the fourth side should be". If you stop the casual copying, fine for a few weeks, until the hacked version that doesn't need the code number gets around and all over the place on the internet, as STORM said. One example of a complicated wide-organized plan to stop illegal music copying was the system of different incompatible versions of music tapes and CD's, so that the music companies could release music at different times in different countries without backstreet copyists and smugglers spoiling it :: fin e for a while, when someone wrote a Windows program that can translate this sort ofmusic between different nation codes, and it soon got everywhere on the internet, and that was the end of that.

The first question one has to ask is if any of the people sharing and burning copies of Poser directly with each other are ever going to be real customers and purchase Poser in the first place? I suspect most of this goes on in schools and is more in the line of a demo substitute and they soon tire of the "fully working demo" and move on to other stuff or will not have the money to become real customers for some time. If this is the case then it seems a waste of time, effort and money putting real customers through all the hoops just to prevent an illegal activity that does not really affect sales in the first place. It might be an idea for software manufacturers to do some research into this before contemplating a radical departure into program protection. Warez sites are very different. Most people willing to spend many hours and days downloading a large 200 megabyte+ program are probably real potential customers and the warez from these places represents real financial loss. Just a few thoughts. Regards STORM

I suspect that a lot does happen in schools, but it also happens in many other places. I know many freelance graphic artists who's entire arsenal is made up of "borrowed" software. If these items were copy protected, they certainly would be customers...or loose many tools they use to do their job. But they wouldn't go to a warez board, cuz that's illegal.

Everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me... "Insufficient data at this time for final analysis." Why don't we wait a bit and see what is finally offered? You may find that all (or almost all) our concerns have been considered and addressed. Or you may find that it is as bad as you seem to want to believe, in which case CL's sales will indeed plummet and they will remove the protection aspects shortly after and you can get it then.... Scarab<-(one thing my years have taught me is that panic never helped dick....)

Yes, A_Super_Hero, it can be done! They just read the ID number of your computor's CPU, so your fdisk session has no impact. Of course a lot of legitimate users will rip a warez copy...you know... just in case... And once you've got it - why bother to call CL or visit their site? There's a lot of softtalk from the CL defenders but it's the same words we have heard from Microsoft all these years and they are still mastering your computor life! I don't think software companies are aware of how often we common users are reistalling our operating systems and programs or formatting our hard drives. I will never ever purchase WindowsXP, 'cause I don't want Microsoft snooping around inside my computor and I certainly have no intention to get in touch with them every time I'd like to rearrange my hard drives. And for the same reason Poser 4 will be the end of the road (and I am a legal owner of every version!). - Zoot

Storm- Are you saying that you would rather have "need the CD in the drive" protection? I sort of have a problem with that, my last couple of computers have had CD drives that make a horable racket at times, as they wind up to 40X or so. But I do very much agree with "The first question one has to ask is if any of the people sharing and burning copies of Poser directly with each other are ever going to be real customers and purchase Poser in the first place?" Exactly- warez dosen't mean lost sales in I'd guess 90% of the cases, at the very least- they would never buy the software anyway. The very, very best plan would be to make Poser a good value for the money- a worthwhile improvement over Poser 4, with a really good manual (which the warez guys wouldn't get). Also they really aught to do special offers for upgrades to regestered versions - Poser 4 only cost me $100, if I recall, because I had Poser 2 (I skipped 3), this leaves the warez kiddies out in the cold. However, the industry trend seems to be do new versions with minimal improvements (Microshaft is a prime example, Adobe is doing pretty well along this line too) at maximum prices - Adobe has, for example, in effect dropped the upgrade academic pricing, it cost the same as a new copy.

BTW, what's the record for the most number of replies to a thread on this board?