I prolly shouldnt add to this... I have A BIG MOUTH.... but what the hay... gonna do it anyhow.

I have stopped arguing in the forums chiefly due to one thing : Renderosity doesnt care and they wont recant or change the rules, even when the majority disagrees. Not one person or a gaggle of people matter... nor do your opinions change anything. Cynical? Naw, realistic.

As with not posting to the forums anymore, I have also stopped uploading products and have moved onto greener pastures. It seems the unfair rules bleed their way into everything... from the galleries, to the mp, to god only knows what next. And with me go many merchants and artists who feel the same way. But nope... its not Rendos fault... could never be their doing. If you ask them, everything is perfectly alright and stong as its ever been. All I have to ask is... do you wear a scubagear when yer that deep in denial? You know, its not just a river in Egypt.

It has been argued many times... and in most opinions, Aiko isnt even human, let alone grown up or childlike. I think its absolutely silly to administer such rules.... and wholly unfair when its compeltely at the discretion of the admin to decide which ones break it and which ones make it. Im also of the opinion that "rebel rousers" get treated differently than the normal every day peeps that keep their noses to themselves. Ive seen it enuff to believe it... no matter what admin replies with "its simply not so"

In close, Id have to agree - make no nude aiko across the board, if you feel you have to be tyrants about it. Its not fair to leave it open to such scrutiny... and to keep your community in a position of fear, because you cant see your way to be clear about the rules. But ehhh... I say all this, knowing nothing will change. Their site, their rules... and so, I have moved on.

Sorry Bill, to see you upset and treated this way. You are one of my faves here and I dont blame you for being pissed. Rock on.

Gotta agree with Iggy. It don't matter what you say.

That's the biggest change Rendo has gone through in my opinion. They just don't give a damn anymore.

Oh and one last thing: We ABSOLUTELY pay the mortgage here and anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly fooled by Rendo. From gallery plus, to file locker - for the merchants, they take 50% of our asses every sale we make. Those who dont pay for anything or arent merchants... dont be so easily fooled by that either. Your gallery is one big freakin ad... which is an attractant to fans and friends alike, who come on to view it - and decide they wanna do art too, so they stay to shop. Do I think we should have a say in the rules?? HELL YES. When u own stock in a company, you get a say... why should this be any different?

I don't usually get into such arguments either but Debbie did say Aiko is not a child, so nudity is okay. Now it's not? So yes, make it one way or the other and not leave us guessing. I will not ever post another image with any toon character here period. even though my main reason for any nudity is to show off my skin textures I make. If there is any further doubt on Aiko, then Debbie should answer all of us about her.

jevans69, I'm not under the impression that you were objecting to someone making suggestions at all, nor was I suggesting anything akin to that.  I merely see a difference between a site which is designed specifically for the public and one which is private.  As I mentioned as well, I believe rules have to be put in place.  It's a given.  What makes it so difficult though is when first, there's no clear cut rules in place, and/or, because defining what is and isn't appropriate in some cases (obviously not over anything blatant), is purely subjective, what posting artists, viewing artists, or the community on the whole might view as 'fine', apparently, as has been proven, is not viewed the same by those who run the site.  I don't think it has anything to do with the ability or inability to decide on one's own whether something is okay or not.  In truth, the problem is in pretty much one-upping administrators and moderators by trying to guess at what their perception will be.  Unless a person is one heck of a pyschic, that's pretty much impossible to pull off.  I think when issues like this come up, it's better to have something as black and white as possible in terms of rules, as opposed to leaving much in the way of grey.

As for the comment 'I see no one gives a shit...', I can't comment on whether that was directed or not.  I'm not going to assume either the former or latter.  It may have just been sheer frustration on Bill's part.  I'd have to literally ask him to be certain of anything.

As for your art, although I haven't seen it, I'm certain it's beautiful since there is no 'good or bad art.'  All art, in my opinion, is valuable, however.  And it may be that there are images you know, or feel, you can't post here based on the TOS, and how you percieve it; at least based on those which are more clearly defined. 

I agree the people behind Renderosity have elected to shoulder the responsibilities which come with their job, and certainly that's not something to be undermined.  However, it is a job, and one they've chosen to do, just as I've chosen the responsibilities which go with my job, whether I like them all or not.  I also agree Renderosity has to keep the advertisers and such happy, but it becomes a delicate balancing act because the customers also have to be kept happy.  Without advertisers and the like, a business risks failing, but by the same token, without customers, a business risks failing.  As such, I think it's extremely important that each concern, and this is a concern, be examined based on its own merit.

Stacey has indeed provided a most apt response, responses, actually.  For that, I'm grateful.  I'm definitely most interested in what the outcome will be.

Just to set the record straight, jevans69, I have no opinion of you, simply because I don't know you.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

Iggy, I've never known you to have a 'big mouth', girl, just the ability to shoot from the hip.

Quote - This is essentially correct.  However, when we discover that the kid with the bat and ball doesn't have firm clear rules, we get frustrated with the game and eventually stop playing with him.

This is very true, and the bane of every business that must interact with the public in some way. Of course, it can be expressed as a concern (I'm afraid more people will leave), as a warning (watch out or people will leave), or even as a threat (People are gonna leave, you no-good-niks). I'm all for helpful suggestions, and I'm all for people expressing their concerns. I don't have much use for people whining about what is and isn't fair, but that's just me.

I don't want people to leave; the more the merrier for me. Good and bad, loud and quiet, warts and all. I'm not in any way refuting the point that people who are frustrated will leave; being frustrated is, in fact, the prima facie reason most consumers stop frequenting a business. I'm not saying that anyone is treated fairly or unfairly, or that changes do or do not need to be made. The only points I'm trying to make in this thread are:

1. Things are more complicated in running the site than some people may realize
2. Some (many? most?) things in life are going to be unfair. Learn it now or learn it later, it's always going to be true.
3. I, personally, dislike people who talk in an aggrieved tone of voice about how they been dun wrong by the big bad establishment. There are circumstances where I might agree with the person's postion, times I may disagree. I don't like temper tantrums, in any form. In this, I am expressing my opinion. Since I perceive that a temper tantrum has been thrown, I also believe it's on topic for the thread.

Quote - To Any and All:  The picture was inoffensive.  No warnings ought be given.

Could be; I haven't seen it, but it wouldn't matter to me. I can't recall ever having found any visual image offensive. It was taken down because it violated the TOS, regardless of it's inherent potential to be offensive, or whether it was good art, even. And, I know for a fact that it violated the TOS, because the people designated to make that judgement did just that, and that's what makes it so. Of course, they might their mind, which they are certainly allowed to do.

Might be fair, might not be fair. Most of life falls on the "not fair" side. 'Tis what it 'tis, though.

Quote - jevans69, I'm not under the impression that you were objecting to someone making suggestions at all, nor was I suggesting anything akin to that.

No problem, and I'm completely in sync with you. The first post defines the thread, though, and I don't think this thread is really about improving Renderosity. If you take out the rants, the concerns, the calm responses from Stacey, the silliness, and my pompous pontificating, what you're left with is really only one suggestion. As I've said, I don't think it's workable. It would make life simpler, but it won't solve the problem that the TOS is addressing in the first place.

Quote - Just to set the record straight, jevans69, I have no opinion of you, simply because I don't know you.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

I certainly believe that, and I apologize for not being clearer; that remark was not aimed at you or anyone involved in this thread. I was thinking of a different situation in a different forum where there was some confusion about what I was objecting to. I really only meant to make clear that I am in no way objecting to the expression of thoughts, opinions and ideas, that's all.

Let me make this statement one more time. Its NOT the character but HOW the final rendered image appears. So we haven't said that Aiko is an adult or a child, we are saying its the appearance in the final rendered image.

With all due respect, the way the admin perceives something, isnt necessarily how it was intended. If you look at a pic of me, I look like im 17 yrs old, but my ID says 29. I still get carded for cigarettes! Now while Id NEVER post a nude image of myself for the world to see, if I did, would it too be removed, just coz I look like Im young??? Then in turn, the next question would be, how many images are removed before the person is banned?? You have it set up so that people do the trial and error gig - where theyre simply not sure, so they upload to test the waters, only to have it yanked from the gallery. Doing that so many times tho has its consequence of being banned. Its self-perpetuated rule breakage, if you ask me. No wonder so many here fear posting. Sad since its an art community.

Okay first off its not only the admin (which is a small team of about 10) that decide. As I said earlier we have a large team consisting of 52 mods/coords NOT including the 10 admin.

Second if it was a photo and we were unsure we would ask for a photo id as stated in our TOS.

Third we always let you all know that we encourage  if you have an image you want to upload and you are not certain if its against the TOS or not, you are more than welcome to foward it to a team member so we can review BEFORE the upload process.

And we also give education around the child image guidelines before handing out warnings for repeated violations.

has anyone qctually seen the image? i see people for and against and i'm wondering if sides are being taken blindly. were mods heavy handed or not...again, unlees we've seen the image this is just speculation either way. if something fails the tos, it fails the tos. how the tos is interprited will always be a bone of contention. make aiko a child figure and people will say it's not fair. as has been said it is really the image and not the model that should be judged. i suspect even mil girl with the right morphs can be made to look over 18. i've seen it said that if the admin say aiko is a child figure it would make it clearer and people won't use her for nude images. if thats truly the case just don't use her for nude images. why wait till you get a yay or nay. i've always advocated that the under 18 rule should be more clear with some kind of seeable guidelines. i suspect that most of the members don't care one way or another. most nudes are out and out adults. i admit a lot may be borderline but on the whole most are def adult. is it a bif thing to have an image pulled. i guess it must be. will it do any good to complain about it. maybe it will but i think we should only complain if weve been down all other avenues. unless it ws an out and out violation and the image was blatently under age i'd have thought some kind of reasonable dialog and a an offer to take more care would go some way to have the warning removed. as it is i can't see that happening now. after all the mods are only human and once we slate them they'll be less inclined to be forgiving. sometimes i look at these threads and think another route could have been taken. admittely sometimes i think the mods were wrong and shout voiciferously about it. i can't do either in this thread cos as i say i have'nt seen the image. i do know for a fact they won't get it right every time. to expect them to would be niave. whist some may leave the site over issues like this i doubt it will make a big difference to the membership. like any big site membership is a dynamic entity. it will always change. it's always sad when people leave through frustration but thats the norm for any site like this. i also suspect many people are tired of threads like this so we get the same old people posting, the ones that cry fould and the ones that cry broken record.

if i had a suggestion to make concerning nudes under 18 it would be this. let admin pick a group of people, say ten from mp ten from the poser foum and a some from other forums. (no mods)start a closed forum where only these people can have a say and let any image that needs judgement be place there so that its their peers that say yes or no. this way it takes pressure of the mods and places the onus on those who posts images to decide. i'd also advocate no warnings for a first offense  re this thread. thsi way an image would initially be removed for adjudication. jmo

billy

Quote - Okay first off its not only the admin (which is a small team of about 10) that decide. As I said earlier we have a large team consisting of 52 mods/coords NOT including the 10 admin.

Second if it was a photo and we were unsure we would ask for a photo id as stated in our TOS.

 Third we always let you all know that we encourage  if you have an image you want to upload and you are not certain if its against the TOS or not, you are more than welcome to foward it to a team member so we can review BEFORE the upload process.

And we also give education around the child image guidelines before handing out warnings for repeated violations.

So lemme get this straight... you guys tie up over 50 admins and mods with one picture, just to decide its fate? Hmmm that seems pretty incredible and kinna overzealous. It also seems their time would be better spent elsewhere, esp where the site is definitely lacking, but thats just my opinion.

I cannot possibly see people who render aiko nude on a regular basis, submitting each and every image to you guys for checking. Now that seems REALLY incredible and overzealous. I wouldnt even bother... which is why we are seeing so many artists leaving for good.

And no, you guys dont educate anyone about the child nudity guidelines. Ive read the rules themselves and they are quite vague (not to mention nearly impossible to locate, esp to someone who is new) There is too much room for error and admin/mod opinions. On the other hand, making no nude aiko across the board would be much more simple methinks... and would also leave no room for error.

We don't review every image uploaded to the gallery. Actually the number of images we have to give opinions on is very small in comparsion to the number uploaded per day.  And this is part of the mod/coord responsibilities and we actually have a very very good system in place. It works quite well and has for some time now.

It seems you are taking everything I say and taking it to the extreme. Of course we don't expect someone to come to us with every Aiko image nude they want to upload.  I think that after doing this a time or two and getting the education it would be much easier for them to know on their own. But if it takes a member reviewing every image that there are feeling uneasy about, then thats fine too.

Yes we do educate members that have had issues with the guidelines and anyone that comes to us about it. We certainly do. And what I said was that WE DON'T GIVE A WARNING on the first child image guideline violatiion, but a reminder and education.

Well, yeah, I was taking it all to extremes... see thats exactly my point. If youre not perfectly crystal clear about what is meant by a rule or something stated, its often taken to extremes. Thats human nature.

And assuming that after an image or two, someone will have a clearer understanding about how the rules go is well, an assumption at best and not the best way to handle rules or a business. Like Neomea said, its impossible to know how something will be perceived, unless youre a psychic. Personally, I think the success of something speaks in numbers, not opinion.... if you have drones of people leaving over how the system works, thats not success :shrugs:

I also want to say again that its not just AIKO because its not based on the character. So even if we were to say no more nude with Aiko, things won't change because you have dozens of other characters that can be rendered to appear underage. So I don't think that is the answer personally. I know that some sites don't allow nudity at all and I don't think that is the answer either...I think that our system in place is fair and definitely unbiased as there is a mixture of team members with different age ranges, cultures, views, etc. And these are members of the Community just as everyone is and some are vendors, some are not but there is a variety for sure. 
Of course we know that not everyone is going to agree with it  because everyone has different views on how it should be done. If we say no nudity, that would cause some to be upset, if we say no Nude Aiko at all then the members that do nude Aiko (and other characters) renders giving the apperance of being over the age of 18 would be upset, if we say all  no matter how underage they look can be nude then you have members with big issues about that as well as laws to tend with.

I agree with you Stacey, If you were to decide to not let people post nudes of Aiko, you'd  probably have an awful lot of people complaining because they can't post their nude image of Aiko even though she looks older then 18...  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't...  I so don't envy your job... 

Yes.....if you were to say that ALL nude images of Aiko were A-OK, regardless of apparent age -- then you'd hear it from the other side.  Big time.  There is no universal agreement on how this sort of thing ought to be handled -- even though some claim to represent a 'majority' opinion.  For all of the dozen or so of those who hold to that opinion that we've heard from.  Out of a membership of......what?........400,000?  Or so?  Bring in a couple of dozen more -- it'll still represent a tiny, tiny minority.  Albeit quite a vocal one.

You guys in the administration just keep right on doing what you are doing.  As I know that you will.  It's a balance between the demands of various parties with widely divergent tastes and opinions.

There will always be those who will want to move the bright line more in their direction -- but that will only upset those on the other side of the line.  So you do what you can.  And I applaud you for it.

Eric,

The Contest rules clearly state No Nudity is allowed. So even though you have her positioned the way you do, the breasts are still not covered with clothing.  Sorry

Yes, Stacy, I understand, but it's sad, that's all!

must...not..reply...must..refrain from posting

i just had an image pulled cos it looked under 18. personally i don't agree.....why am i even bothering to tell people. it's not the end of my world. i still have the image on my pc. i can post it soemwhere else if i want. by them taking it down i get some kind of picture of how they judge someone to be under 18.  why should i complain. what harm has it actuaaly done top have an image removed. they haven't curtailed my art. i don't feel abused or insulted.i might not agree with them and they obviously don't agree with me. but wow. do i give a shit it was taken down. no not really.  do i need to post about it. definitely not, as i said to me it's no big deeal. tthey did what they thought they should and i'll live with it. now if i'd have put wings on it i'd have been devastated.

the above isn't true, i never had an image to take down but if i did i'd accept it. if i wanted people to see it that much i'd post it somewhere else. i have seen mole hills turn into mountains in these threads and sometimes even threw some of the dirt on the molehill myself. but looked at in perspective is it that much of a big deal...(i'm not talking about the warning btw, i don't know why he was warned so can't speculate on it) i'm just asking is it such a big deal to have an image pulled.

i'm pretty sure i'll get my testicles re-arranged by some for asking but even thats no big deal really.

jmo

billy

Don't be surprised if full artists decided to leave your site, it's so sad that Art nudity is not consider like Art......

Maybee we people here in Europe see art whith another eyes. I dont know. But i have seen a lot of diskussions in diffrent forums about nudity in art and sorry, but sometimes i really have to laugh.
Nudity in art you can find everywhere. If you look the work of the oldmaster, nudity all over. Whit little nymps, cherubs, and i can find nothing pervert in it.
But okay, i accept here the guidelines for children nudity. Its okay and and i think neccesary. But
Aiko is a toon character, everybody knows that.  I never seen in Aiko a real human character , so for me, you can morph her a childface, she stay for me as a anime, toon character.

**billy423uk

**has anyone qctually seen the image?

I know Primaltucks Artwork. I have never seen a image from Bill which was somehow pervert or something like this.
His Art is unique, Beautyfull and allways tastefull. Even whith nudity characters. And even whith nudity Aiko.
More tastefull like some images whith the "over 18 years V3 "in breasts like melons or ballons.

hi tom.

are those teeth marks in your tongue lol.

eric sad it may be but to put a nude in a challange that doesn't allow nudes can only add to ones saddness.

billy

Quote - must...not..reply...must..refrain from posting

Yer a smarter man than me, amigo. :lol:

so what you're saying ladona is you haven't seen the image.  you can even find nudity in art here. just not any that they think looks under 18. ive seen anime, quiet like it. i've also seen porn anime and it is porn irrespective of the genre.  though we can argue for rule change we don't set the rules and that it. i do think if we don't agree with something re the tos or rules we should be allowed to say so, in the main i think we get that chance. i haven't personally seen bills art but from the galleries i have seen of others, very little of it is tastefull, unique or beautiful. thats just my personal opinion of course. most is repititious, tawdry and dull. (some is excellent but not much)

billy

Toons... man, oh man... you haven't really lived until you've done a batch download of what you thought was clipart and open it up to find that it's got Snoopy - Charlie Brown porn in it. Some things will wake you up faster than a hot cup o' coffee, I'll tell ya...

@billy423uk
This image was removed bevore i could see it. But how i told you. I know Bills gallarie,i know his art. (He is on my fav. list) I i never seen a image from Bill, which was ugly or has something to do whith porn. So for me its not matter if i have seen this special image. I would put my hands in fire for Support Bills artwork, because i am sure i am right.
He is a fantastic artist, he inspires a lot of people whith his art and its sad what happens to him.

but from the galleries i have seen of others, very little of it is tastefull, unique or beautiful.

Yes, i agree whith you. You can see here a lot of images but how you said.
And the other hand is, artist like Bill, who really make unique and beautyfull art., tastefull in each details, they mave to remove his images. Its sad.

Quote - Toons... man, oh man... you haven't really lived until you've done a batch download of what you thought was clipart and open it up to find that it's got Snoopy - Charlie Brown porn in it. Some things will wake you up faster than a hot cup o' coffee, I'll tell ya...

 

Okay, i agree, this is pervert. But we are talking here about a image which shows Aiko nacked.
Not porn. A nudity image. Whith a toon character.

sorry ladona i never meant to imply bills work was porn, i'm sure it isn't. but it looks like some thought it depicted someone under 18.  nakedness in itself and within art doesn't worry me but i guess the mods have to cater for everyone including kids. the mere fact they have to try and cater for everyone means some won't get catered for. your loyalty to bills art is commendable.

billy

Quote - sorry ladona i never meant to imply bills work was porn, i'm sure it isn't. but it looks like some thought it depicted someone under 18.  nakedness in itself and within art doesn't worry me but i guess the mods have to cater for everyone including kids. the mere fact they have to try and cater for everyone means some won't get catered for. your loyalty to bills art is commendable.

billy

Okay, i understand you

Quote - Okay, i agree, this is pervert. But we are talking here about a image which shows Aiko nacked. Not porn. A nudity image. Whith a toon character.

For the record, my personal opinion is that a nude image of Aiko (not morphed, I'm not sure what positions you could twist her into) doesn't constitute porn. The word "porn" itself has a vague definition of course, that tends to vary from person to person, but that's my opinion. It's entirely possible that, if I were to see the image in question, I might disagree with the judgment as to the apparent age of the character. Note that this is the only problem with the image. No one decided it was "porn", no one decided it was "offensive". The apparent age of the character was judged, the value was too low based on previously defined criteria, and that was that.

It's also my opinion that it would be nice if everyone's art could always be displayed here. The reality of it is, of course, is that it can't. There are some images that are unacceptable, this unacceptability is based on the judgment of a team of people applying a set of rules as best they can, and that's the way it goes.

I don't object to the rules, nor do I object to the way the rules are enforced. However, I absolutely, unequivocally support primaltruck's (and every other member's) right to disagree with me and to disagree with the status of his images here at Renderosity.

My only objection is to the behavior of someone who appears to see no viewpoint but his own, who seems to think that his opinion constitutes a kind of natural law, and throws a fit in a public forum. Temper tantrums are unsightly coming from three year olds; from people who are ostensibly adults, it's downright distasteful. Again, this is my opinion; yours may differ.

It's possible to disagree with a decision in a civil manner, and it's possible for a person to go on a self-absorbed rant, and any number of states in between. I saw in the beginning of this thread behavior that tends toward the former end of the spectrum, and (honestly, against my better judgement) I felt compelled to comment. I'm sure that there are readers of this forum that are at least as annoyed by my behavior as I am by the start of the thread. I suppose, at the least, we can be happy with the fairness of that.

billy423uk, You should really have a look at primal's gallery before you say most of what you see here is not art! He doesn't only do Poser, he does Bryce, DS and Vue as well. he does many styles and all is excellent. Many others here do wonderful art (even if you have a different opinion) with Poser. Bill does not do any porn image and certainly not with childern. the point here is that it has been ruled Aiko is adult but too often it is left up to others to decide if that is so. As far as her looking young, the only way she won't is if we all give her baggy eyes and wrinkles!!!

Quote - Eric,

 

The Contest rules clearly state No Nudity is allowed. So even though you have her positioned the way you do, the breasts are still not covered with clothing.  Sorry

@Stacey
Sorry, but this really put a smile on my face. Dont missunderstand me, i accept the TOS for the conntest whith no nudity.
You write it clear and whithout any chanche to missunderstand , in the contest rules.
But the reason why i smile is, i think you made this rules because for some member which are under 18 . Thats okay. I agrre when companys try to protect children from worst suggestions.
On Erics image you can see a little breasts. Not much, because she covers the most of. This is not alloved, because nudity and maybee people under 18 could see it.
But the other way is, you have no problems to show Bloodsplashed, rooten zombies which eaten humans body. LOL What do you think? Are these images okay for people under 18?
Sorry, for me this is a little confus.

You know it does amaze me. Well two things (out of many do)

The first is whenever anyone complains someone is sure to put in the comment that we have to play by Rendo's rules because its their private site. well, so far as I know Rendo is a business and the galleries etc are here to support that business and to encourage people to come back and to buy things. I suppose what I am trying to say is I accept that Rendo could be privately owned but I don't accept that posting something here is the same as showing something in someone's living room. Quite frankly I have seen images here that I find much more repulsive and offensive than some of the images that have been banned because Aiko looks too young. and they are still here. Maybe its just people look on them as being bad taste.

Secondly I don't believe that you should sell Aiko morphs and textures that make her look younger than 18 with nudity in the market place if you are not going to allow it here. You can't have it both ways.

Quote - billy423uk, You should really have a look at primal's gallery before you say most of what you see here is not art! He doesn't only do Poser, he does Bryce, DS and Vue as well. he does many styles and all is excellent. Many others here do wonderful art (even if you have a different opinion) with Poser. Bill does not do any porn image and certainly not with childern. the point here is that it has been ruled Aiko is adult but too often it is left up to others to decide if that is so. As far as her looking young, the only way she won't is if we all give her baggy eyes and wrinkles!!!

sorry but i stand my opinion that for the main the gallery art is repititious,  tawdry and dull. that doesn't man i think bills or anyone else is such thy may do great art. i also stated i wasn't implying bill did porn either. and i have had a look since saying what i did and i still think the same. if you think most of the art in the galleries is good and beautifull blue echo fine. i have no need to try and dissuade you from your opinion. as for akio. if the only thing that stops her looking old is baggy eyes...then give her baggy eyes.

billy

To clarify, having an image removed due to violation of the child nudity guidelines is in no way equal to creating child porn.
At All.
All it means is that you've violated our Child Image Guidelines.  We've removed quite a few very innocent images that, because they violated the Guidelines, had to go.  And, yes, if many of the old masters, who painted cherubs and young babies in the nude, were to post their art here, it would be removed on those guidelines.  We here do not say what is and is not Art.  We do, however, say what is acceptable for our site.

MS

Everybody in enrighted and encouraged to their opinion and so am I, but why are you guys always mix facts with opinions, guesswork and twisted half-trues? Start learning to argument based on facts (called reasoning) and not on individual experiences and opinion that might be in contrast with the rest of the world. Leave senseless destrucitve blaming behind and make productive  suggestion of improvements - as I do! I also like quite some things not about this site here, but what I do, is I tell them in a neutral way what problem there is, why I think it is a problem (note "I" - this is subjective matter - and I am aware of it, and I don't think the whole world revolves around me and I learned to cope with it), and then - and now comes the most important part - I make suggestions, give ideas,hints and inspiration on how to solve  this matter. Of course I also express my anger and concern to e.g. speed things up BUT in a civil, mature and unpersonal way AND my focus and main goal is always to find the SOLUTION!
Here a little example: you buy a car which is real lemon, but statistics show that this car is actually quite reliable - then the owner of that lemon is very much is angry and starts ranting about how bad this car company's cars are when in fact his experience was an exception. So he needs to put his experience into the whole context! He is entitled to be angry (and compensation in this case), but not to defame the company!

some points:
1.) this might bruise some egos here BUT when a TOS Violation letter is sent out then this is standard form! So noone is harrased more then someone else!
2.) These letters are in no way personal nor do they judge the work technically, artistically or in any other way - they just state the fact that an TOS violation has occured - so why do you always take it personally???
3.) Why do you always kill the messengers? That's absolutely UNFAIR! We only do our job as good and torough as possible, trying to apply and enforce the rules and procedures the company gave us.
4.) when TOS letters are sent then this is never done on the judgement/opinion of one single staff member but on the consensus of at least half a dozen staff members - so the results should be consequent and equal.
5.) when a child nudity violation we NEVER accused anybody of doing child porn in any way - that's the sole and subjective impression (or perhabs bad conscience?) of this guys complaing in that way - so I really can't understand how they get this idea - also see point 2.)
we actually often say it is a pity that a picture has to go because it is good or something fresh BUT if it is against the TOS then we have follow procedure
6.) this is a private site allowing you to post your images for free IF you follow the owners rules -
this is not a public place where you can enforce and enttitle to govermantaly laws ! When you visit a friend and he denies you the entry of his bedroom, then you have to accept it, even if you think he is prude or wrong or whatever - but it is his decision to make!

So I hope this little insight helps you understand the processes here at Rendo

oh and ignis:

Quote - And no, you guys dont educate anyone about the child nudity guidelines. Ive read the rules themselves and they are quite vague (not to mention nearly impossible to locate, esp to someone who is new) There is too much room for error and admin/mod opinions. On the other hand, making no nude aiko across the board would be much more simple methinks... and would also leave no room for error.

The TOS named clearly "Terms of Service" containing the child nudity guidelines is directly on the front page - how much easier can we locate - please make a valid realizable suggestion to solve this matter!
WHAT in these rules is vague? Which points needs clarification on what ??? That's what the staff needs to know in order to change something for the better?

and to prevent some people specualting I am telling this only because I am a staff member: here some points you might consider:

• I am a mere coordinator - I have no special rights and no priviliges - I am just a voluntary helper, because I think Rendo is awesome place which can be improved even more, and I thinkI I can help with that
• I am no friend of the child nudity guide line myself; when it was announced I was one of the members crying out loudest BUT I accepted&ackowledged that this is not an judgement but just a rule the sites owner likes to have realized. When I have something which I can't post here then i post it on my private homepage or other galleries and often vice versa.
• There a lot of other big and good galleries with their own restrictions but they might be different from ours fitting their own mission/agenda. E.g. Epilogue only accepts picture of a certain quality standard at their own final discretion; before you can register on Elfwood you first have to pass a test on their TOS and posting guidelines - and there you are only allowed to post SciFi & Fantasy images - everyting else is denied - there EVERY picture needs approvement before it actually appears in the gallery!!!; over at CGTalk - a highly professional art site - there are galleries where pictures can only be posted if they meet certain quality criteria again at the discretion of the staff; at renderotica you can post erotic art but even there not everything is allowed; over at SciFi-meshes you can only post SciFi pictures. So you see these are just (impersonal) rules to define a place - nothing more, nothing less.

Quote - To clarify, having an image removed due to violation of the child nudity guidelines is in no way equal to creating child porn.
At All.
All it means is that you've violated our Child Image Guidelines.  We've removed quite a few very innocent images that, because they violated the Guidelines, had to go.  And, yes, if many of the old masters, who painted cherubs and young babies in the nude, were to post their art here, it would be removed on those guidelines.  We here do not say what is and is not Art.  We do, however, say what is acceptable for our site.

MS

Child Porn??? Excuse me, but between porn and nudity is a big hole.
But okay, i understand. But sorry i have to laugh. You removed great art from your site because you think ist violated the child nudity guidelines,  and i am sure this image we are talking about was not  break the child nudity guidelines ,the other side is i can see here a lot of hardcore violence on images in the galleries, Michael whith holes in his head and another nice things.
But nobody cares. Sorry but this is for me pervert.

I'm sorry but this isn't really somebody's bedroom.

It is a privately owned site but lets get away from the idea we are in someone's sitting room etc unless you are suggesting that they also have a huge store in their sitting room as well.

It is an area maintained by rendo as a selling aid. And I may be wrong, but some people do pay to have their art displayed here don't they?

Ladona said:

Quote - But nobody cares.

Clearly that isn't true, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Sweeping generalizations aren't really very useful, in my opinion (Anyone catch the irony there? )

Quote - Sorry but this is for me pervert.

Then, what's your suggestion? How can this be improved? Come down from that horse and roll up your sleeves. What can be done to improve this imbalance that you see? Do you want to help, or do you want to complain? This is the Community Forum, so let's be communal. If all you want to do is rant, I'll let you be. But you seem smart, passionate, and interested in what's happening here, so let's see if there are realistic things that can be done to improve things. Can't say that anything will happen, but let's move in a positive direction.

Quote - I'm sorry but this isn't really somebody's bedroom. It is a privately owned site but lets get away from the idea we are in someone's sitting room etc unless you are suggesting that they also have a huge store in their sitting room as well. It is an area maintained by rendo as a selling aid. And I may be wrong, but some people do pay to have their art displayed here don't they?  

And the point is... what? People should or shouldn't be allowed to complain? The TOS is somehow flawed because there is a store maintained at this web site? The moon is made of green cheese?

By the way, your analogy is skewed. If the gallery is the "sitting room", the "huge store" is out back, next to the kitchen, and the galleries are in the parlor. Which still seems off point.

You can pay to have your art displayed more frequently, but there is no fee to display your art, as far as I know. A legal distinction, perhaps, but a distinction nevertheless. It's like the fact that you don't own that software you think you just bought, but in fact you own a license to use the software; two different things. Again, not part of the point, just wanted to interject that.

Stipulated, there is a store operated via this web site, which also hosts images. I'm not clear what you're getting at. Does this have something to do with the structure of the TOS, the issue at hand (primaltruck's image getting pulled and his resultant distress), or something else?

@Jevans69
I hope i can explain you my opinions. ( my english is not the best) . What makes me really here are a few things.
A few words about child nudity guidelines. I accept it. Sure. We have to protect children and childporn is something really dreadfull and pervert.  I can understand when the Moderators dont accept nude images whith the mill. kids. These are real people character.
But Aiko. Aiko is a Anime , Toon character. She has morphs like an adult. You can buy for here clothes which are sexy and and really forbidden hot. Here at MP.
I have seen so many images whith her in clothes and pose who really looks more sexy than a nudity image whith her.
This is allowed. Nobody complains because you can buy this stuff here at MP. But for me this is not a diffrent, nudity or sexy clothes. Both shows her sexuality.
The second thing which makes me angry is that here are really some "holy guardians" of the gallerie who supported each nipple which has not the nudity flag on. The other side is, when you take a look in their worst galleries, you can see images whith violence that blows you away.
And the great discussions here in the forums are never about such images, just only about nudity images.
Bills image they removed from the galleries, a image which was art in any form. Beautyfull and sensual whit a little humor. ( I know know which one they removed)
And this image dont breake any guidelines. So why they removed it? Censoring or maybee somebody was jelous?

Quote - Bills image they removed from the galleries, a image which was art in any form. Beautyfull and sensual whit a little humor. ( I know know which one they removed)
And this image dont breake any guidelines. So why they removed it?

Yes, the image did break guidelines. The character was judged by the staff to appear to be under 18.

Quote - Censoring or maybee somebody was jelous?

Please be serious. Do you really think we would sit and remove images which showed more skill or artistry than our own? In this case, I would be removing 75% of the Poser gallery since I am very much a hobbyist!

Let me reiterate - again - the removal of any image is in no way a comment on the skill or artistry of the image or the artist. It is simply a comment that the image is in violation of the TOS.

Quote - Don't be surprised if full artists decided to leave your site, it's so sad that Art nudity is not consider like Art......

Maybee we people here in Europe see art whith another eyes. I dont know. But i have seen a lot of diskussions in diffrent forums about nudity in art and sorry, but sometimes i really have to laugh.
Nudity in art you can find everywhere. If you look the work of the oldmaster, nudity all over. Whit little nymps, cherubs, and i can find nothing pervert in it.
But okay, i accept here the guidelines for children nudity. Its okay and and i think neccesary. But
Aiko is a toon character, everybody knows that.  I never seen in Aiko a real human character , so for me, you can morph her a childface, she stay for me as a anime, toon character.

It is not that Europeans see art differently, it is that they see nuditiy differently. Having been born and raised in Europe and living in the U.S for the past 14 years, this is not an empty statement on my part ;)

@Mel this is exactly what i mean. Here in Europe is in nudity nothing wrong or ugly. Ugly and wrong is what the people are doing whith it.
You know its the same like whith the knifes. Knifes can safe lives( if doktors are using them) and they can take lives. If the wrong people use them.
And on tastefull artistic nudity is nothing wrong or pervert in my eyes.
You can missuse each image you want. Even images where is no nudity.

Quote - I hope i can explain you my opinions. ( my english is not the best) .

No, you're doing fine. I don't know any useful words of Italian, so you're way ahead of me.

I think it's important to note that we don't know why the TOS guidelines exist. Assuming they are there to protect children is a possibility, but we don't actually know that from the TOS. The TOS explains what is acceptable, and what our responsibilities as members are, but it doesn't explain itself. Some possibilities include:

1. The rules are imposed or derive from some legal authority.
2. The rules exist because of a contractual agreement between Renderosity and some other business entity.
3. The rules reflect the sensibilities of one or more of the owners.
4. The rules are arbitrary and mean.

Could be some, all, or none of those reasons apply. We don't know. Without knowing why they exist and what problem they are addressing, we can't really begin to make useful suggestions for altering them in any way.

I feel compelled at this point to point out that "Aiko" is not a toon, not a child, and not an adult. "Aiko" is a suite of data files, a bunch of Poser CR2 data and a not unreasonably large Wavefront OBJ file. The problem is not about what character or rendering product was the source of the image. You can finger paint a picture by staring out the window at birds and thinking about Aiko, if you want, and the issue still exists. The TOS guidelines apply to images submitted to Renderosity, not what they are made from.

I am clear on the idea that, in your opinion, the image originally referenced by primaltruck, many others, and perhaps any image created based on Aiko does not fall within the definition of a file which should be removed. Myself, I'm neutral on the issue. To render my opinion about a particular image, I'd have to see that image. It doesn't affect the issue at hand, because neither of us is part of the team that makes the official call on this, and it's certainly possibly that our opinions will differ, in at least some cases, from theirs.

About the comment that the image in question didn't break the guidelines: just to make sure that it's clear and we're on the same sheet of music, an image breaks the guidelines when the R'osity team says it does. End of story. At the point that they make their decision, it becomes a fact. Black and white. The image broke the guidelines. You don't think it did, primaltruck doesn't think it did, and I might not think it did. But when they say it does, it does. That's how it works. It's like if you go to court and the judge says you're guilty. Whether you did, in fact, do the crime is not the issue; you are guilty because the judge says so.

I get what you're saying. You are confused about the nature of the rules and why they exist, you are angry about the current enforcement of the rules, and you are saddened by how you perceive some artists have been treated. I get that. But you haven't answered my question. What do you want to do about it? What do you think should be done? Do you think anything should be done at all? Do you just want to wring your hands and say it's a shame? I respect your right to do that, but I keep hoping that you'll offer some thoughts on specific actions that can be taken to help reduce the distress that started this thread in the first place.

I don't have any ideas on what can be done. My opinion at this point, based merely on my very limited exposure to primaltruck in this thread, is that there's not much to be done. I think his ego was bruised, and he wanted to yell about it in a way that would elicit responses of sorrow, commiseration, and indignation on his behalf. I further think that he got sulky and angry when he didn't immediately get his wish. Based on these opinions of mine, I don't think there's a practical way for Renderosity to enforce their rules AND keep everyone from being distressed. I'm hoping that you have some ideas of how something like this might be accomplished.

We're not disputing the artfulness of nudity.  Or that images of playful children cannot be artful.

What we say is, Child-like humanoid characters cannot be displayed Nude or in Suggestive Poses.  The character Primaltruck used was, indeed, deemed child-like by the staff, therefore, it was removed. 

Many of the staff members here on this site aren't from the US.  Many are from Europe, some from South America.  So, no, you're not getting the "American" take on things at all times.

So, yes, we realize that you think that this is unfair, possibly an attack.  Our rules are clearly stated, and have been in effect for almost TWO years.  This isn't some "All-of-the-sudden" change. 

I have seen so many images whith her in clothes and pose who really looks more sexy than a nudity image whith her.  This is allowed. Nobody complains because you can buy this stuff here at MP. But for me this is not a diffrent, nudity or sexy clothes. Both shows her sexuality.

And this is allowed as long as the character you use for your image doesn't appear to be underage.  I have also seen PrimalTruck's image and while I personally wouldn't be able to give her an age, I can see why some people would feel she looks underage...  Some people will see her as underage, others will feel she may be over 18, you have to admit she's very much borderline, it's hard to say wether she's over 18 or not...  You don't feel it broke the TOS because in your opinion she's over 18, others may feel differently...  Rendo had to make a decision and in this case they decided to go on the safe side...  Yes, it's a subjective decision but the determining the age of this character he used is very subjective too.

@jevans
You don't think it did, primaltruck doesn't think it did, and I might not think it did. But when they say it does, it does. That's how it works. It's like if you go to court and the judge says you're guilty. Whether you did, in fact, do the crime is not the issue; you are guilty because the judge says so.

This is too easy for me. If i know i am  ,or somebody else is not guilty, you can be sure i fight for the right. I dont care what the court or the holy popa here said. Not guilty is not guilty.
And so i  stand up for it.
The other thing, your question...i really have to think about. LOL Beacause i have no idea. Well, nobody is perfect.  :biggrin: