Joelglaine thanks for the welcome

One of the first things I learned in the photgraphy forums is that it impossible to get everyone to love your image (or even like sometimes) and there is always someone that thinks it should be done a different way. 
I like to hear all points of view and ideas and comment s even if i think the image is fine and is complete, because it can always open your mind to other possibilities and ideas and ways of doing things previously unthought off, and for me thats the best way to develop...along with me asking everyone every 5 minutes...how do you do this n that etc

So please feel free to shoot your mouth off all you want....

Quote - I am also one who does not comment on every image. I look at them all, but I only comment when I have something to say that I think is helpful. 

Exactly. There is no reason to feel obligated to comment on every single gallery upload made by someone who is part of this group. As someone said, you don't reply to every single thread or post created in the forums because you are a member of the Renderosity community.  This group should be treated the same way. Comment  only when you have something constructive to say about the image and try and give a suggestion on how to fix it.  If you look at an image and don't see anything wrong, or you feel that it's not to your taste etc, then close the window and don't comment.

This isn't a popularity contest to generate comments. In fact I am quite dismayed to see people commenting on every image whether they have something constructive to say or not. In a way it's defeating the entire purpose of getting meaningful comments.

Comments such as "I don't know this program so I can't give critique" or "This genre isn't to my taste, so I won't give critique"  is pointless and should be refrained from being made, because as I said this isn't about generating comments for the gallery images, it's about helping give some insight to helping the person get better in their art.

In fact I have decided that as soon as I see comments by the artists that say something along the lines of  "Just playing...."  or  "Just threw this together to get something up into the gallery...."   that I won't be making a comment.  In fact I feel that those images should not havea  comment box attached to them.  I will only be commenting on serious attempts as should we all.    So please keep that in mind when you are uploading.

If you are 'slapping something together " or  "just playing around" and uploading something because you feel you need to meet a quoat, to me that is not a serious attempt at anything and does not warrant comments from members of this group IMHO.

Sorry to be harsh, but I'm seeing more and more frivilous comments and uploads and I'm getting dismayed because it seems that some are treating this more like a popularity contest to generate comments than anything else. 

I really think that there should be some ground rules in place about this other than to be respectful when you do comment.

i agree mostly, but i'll mention some counterbalancing issues.  (fairly) recently rutra uploaded an image he did in 2 hours that i thought was great.  and what most friends have told me is my best work (can't post it here due to the thumbnail rule), i actually put together in an hour.  sometimes you're able to make something immediate and perfect.  there are lots of art forms that actually must be done in a rapid fashion.  and personally, if a work really hits me, i'll comment even if it has been done quickly.

that said, i've seen the trend acadia is talking about.  i've seen more and more, "nothing to criticize," comments.  which mindboggles me, because i've seen a poster that critiques the mona lisa.  i don't think any of us or any of our works is beyond improvement.   encouragement is great, but i do think we should be careful to keep the analytical nature of this group going. 

i'm not endorsing people comment less, just urging you to include at least one bit of advice you have to make the work stronger in your comment.  i've seen some absolutely unbelievable progress in some members' works, and they're mostly the ones who consistently get detailed advice.

and just as a by the by, i'm really hoping to have new stuff up soon.  i'm postworking one image, and developing two others.  one i've managed to resurrect!  for a while everything was bombing.  the postworked image i've lost work on twice due to photoshop crashing, and i've lost work due to both poser and d|s crashing.  for a while, i swore i would give up on this 3d stuff altogether and work solely on Web stuff.  i came very close to deleting everything, as well as destroying my keyboard in frustration.

so if you've been waiting to be as critical of my work as i've been of yours, please go ahead.  my older works should give you plenty of opportunities.   or be patient.  i'm in the process of making new mistakes that should be ready for your reactions shortly.

then again, i have several unfinished works.   a couple are just less urgent than some of the images i want to do, but most i just reached an impasse.  what's the vote?  should i submit them to the group and take advice?

Quote - i agree mostly, but i'll mention some counterbalancing issues.  (fairly) recently rutra uploaded an image he did in 2 hours that i thought was great.  and what most friends have told me is my best work (can't post it here due to the thumbnail rule), i actually put together in an hour.  sometimes you're able to make something immediate and perfect.

Yes, but do you also say "Just slapped this together" or "Just playing..." or "I just wanted to get something up in my gallery today"?  To me those types of comments accompanying an image indicate a non serious attempt at creating anything meaningful. "Slapping" something together and taking an hour to create what you consider your best work, are 2 different things to me. "Slapping" something together equals haste and done without care or consideration.

excerpt from rutra's comments:

Quote - This one was made really quickly, about 2 hours, as "real life" issues give me no time for these things

and i'd have to say that about my piece, because i really did just throw elements together.  it was very weird.  it was a digital equivalent of throwing paint at a canvas and having something meaningful emerge.  i didn't expect it, and i certainly didn't try to do it.  actually,i've tried to duplicate the act, and it was just too forced.  sometimes throwing and slapping are the best ways to transmit your emotion through your media. 

basically, i'm just saying i'll comment if someone says, "this is a quickie," and it really hits me.  or if they say something that invites critique.  and i'm saying that others can get their quickies reviewed if they want, the same way people get feedback on their 5, 10, 15, 30 and 60 minute paintings over at cgsociety.  there's room for rapid execution, is all.

but, as i said, i've seen what you're talking about.

IMVHO the critique club will be a success even if only 10% of comments are about how to improve a given image. the image posters still need positive re-inforcement to continue, so praise and congratulatory comments are not without merit. nor do I see the need to dwell on an image for hours or days prior to posting it, especially if it's in need of serious changes.

@ Please see my last comment on page 18 about slapped-together CG poser art and comments.  I thought these were all addressed?  ^__^ ,,

I have to agree about the "just slapped together" or "just playing with ..." images. My translation if I see that on an image is that you're not looking for a critique. Generally, I leave no comment.

But, I have to disagree about leaving comments such as "I have no critique". Like it or not, in signing up for this we joined a critique group and even if it feels cliquish I think it equally if not more important to indicate when you do actually like an image. I don't believe you can form a group where people voluntarily make themselves vulnerable and the only acceptable input is what you didn't do, or what you did wrong.

If we don't provide positive re-inforcement, or acceptance, we would end up with a scenario where an individual in the group posts, gets a lot of criticism. Improves, posts and has no commentary. If a person were very talented and posted and no one ever commented -- because they had no critical input-- I believe they would feel as if they were being ignored.

Honest praise is just as motivational and instructive as honest criticism.

Quote - i'm not endorsing people comment less, just urging you to include at least one bit of advice you have to make the work stronger in your comment.  i've seen some absolutely unbelievable progress in some members' works, and they're mostly the ones who consistently get detailed advice.

I think its OK also to point out technical details which you think that they did very well, as a way of both showing critical appreciation for their technique/style/vision, and of drawing other's attentions to those facets of the work. I've learned a bit from positive comments on other peoples images.

Quote -
then again, i have several unfinished works.   a couple are just less urgent than some of the images i want to do, but most i just reached an impasse.  what's the vote?  should i submit them to the group and take advice?

I don't see why it is a problem. Just be clear about the state of your work. Something like "this is a scene which I'm working on. I'm still using default lighting, and I basically just want to get advice on the figures' poses." would be what I, as a reviewer, would want.

I make  "just playing with" pics. And when I say  "it's nothing biggy" or something similar I mean this pic is done for simple fun only (or to test new technique). It doesn't necessary mean I didn't try my best. It means there's no deeper concept, thoughts behind specific pic.

Quote -
then again, i have several unfinished works.   a couple are just less urgent than some of the images i want to do, but most i just reached an impasse.  what's the vote?  should i submit them to the group and take advice?

After receiving feedback about my latest pic I'm sure I'll make a wip thread at ArtTheory forum next time. Your comments guys push me to try harder, don't give up on my works easly, and sometimes you even have a good idea...or two :tt2:
So cobaltdram if you want us to follow progress of your pic and need assistance or a push go ahead! I'm sure you won't be sorry

If I see "I have no critique to give" as a comment, I translate that as "This image does not move me or interest me in any way." Why? Because there's always something to say. If you don't see anything wrong with the image, then tell me what's the best feature, or what you like most. "I love the lighting" or "Great colours" are minimal, but more helpful than "Hey, no critiques to give."

i think i'll give it a whirl!  it's just stuff i've given up on- maybe some fresh perspectives will give them new life.

kalon - just to say, i think there's a difference between giving praise to something that's already been crtiqued and changed, or even why you like an image, and "it's perfect! "  and like acadia, i've noticed more and more, "i don't have a critical thing to say. it's wonderful" or other non-specific glowing phrases that don't leave room for improvement or growth.  i've always tried to be specific about what i do like and what i think are strengths.   but if all i have to say is "that's a nice image," i personally tend not to post.  or look harder and try to understand the piece bettter, so i can say something specific.

There's nothing wrong with leaving a purely positive comment, just express why it's purely positive.  "Super!" is not adequate.  Be specific, why is it Super?

Oh please dont stop pointing out good things! I guess in my short time in the group I  was very fortunate and got excellent feedback.(I dont mean they said my picture was excellent, rather the opinions  expressed were excellent.)  They said what it made them feel and whether I achieved my stated aim,what they liked  and what didnt work. Both aspects helped. I must admit I scringe a bit when critical things are said but most were spot on and I did my best to incorporate them. But to know people looked at my picture and found specific good things to say about it,is amazingly nice!

As for qulifying remark like "just a quick picture"  - whatever the reason,if to cover up insecurity or fishing for complement, I just comment on the result. I do leave a comment of "nothing to comment"  about some aspects, but only if I have something to add about another aspect.
So far - thank you very much!

wait, hold up.  noone has suggested that positive remarks should stop.   things are getting twisted now.  i can't actually speak for acadia, but i've started to see a lot  of the same type of non-specific, blanketly positive comments from group members as the ones that prompted tainted heart to start the thread where this group was proposed.  not so much that i think this has become about networking rather than critiquing art, but enough so that when acadia brought it up,  i felt the need to chime in.  this should not become another mutual appreciation society where the goal is popularity instead of improving as artist.

nobody's saying, "don't say positive things."  all i'm trying to suggest is that we all try to be specific.  and if it's a first version or the artist has said it's still underdevelopment, try to come up with a way to make the image better.  and it's not negative not to have anything to say.  as noted previously members don't have to comment on every image.  if, for reasons of time, interest, expertise or what have you, you don't really have any aspect to praise or advice for improvement, you're not obligated to comment just because that member commented on your last image.

Put as simply as I see and feel it thusly:

Speak truly from the heart.  Speak as if to a friend, with feeling and helpfullness, and you can never go wrong.

So many people over-thinking and over-stating things. LOL :lol:

That's all I got.

Quote - Put as simply as I see and feel it thusly:

Speak truly from the heart.  Speak as if to a friend, with feeling and helpfullness, and you can never go wrong.

That's the whole idea behind this "critique group". However, that's not the point of my post above on this page. 

Saying 'awesome' or giving empty praise is NOT speaking truly or as a friend.  People have trouble conveying meaning in only words with tone or expression.

If you look at an image and feel nothing, you shouldn't comment.  If you feel like something should be said because you see something wonderful or out of whack--speak truly about it, mindful of another's feelings as if they're your friend.

If someone says they did it quickly (ie 'slapped together', or such imprecise  turn of phrase), and I feel something looking at it--I'll say so.  English, especially American English, is very imprecise without the locality of the speech, or knowing of the peculiarities of one person's expression, I give people the benefit of the doubt.

If the artist SAYS the work is frivilous, then I'll assume it is,too.  Otherwise, I'll comment as my heart dictates. "Slapped together" could also means to create without conscious direction.  Some's Muse directing a piece of creation seldom makes it worthless.  How it affects me lets me determine how or IF to comment.  ^__^ V,,

Question -  several of the people that commented on my picture asked if I can post  a picture of the corresponding  watercolor, (when I finally painted it, and if it's any good). My question is would it be OK to post it in the gallery - after all it is not a digital creation.
Actually I have another poser image I already painted which I can post, if its decided its OK.

Thanks a lot for viewing & commenting on my images and allowing me to view and comment on yours.

There is a 2D Gallery that you could post the painting to, and even a Mixed Media Gallery, since technically you are using both Poser and watercolors.

Quote - If you look at an image and feel nothing, you shouldn't comment. 

I don't strictly agree with that - many of the images I review, I don't feel anything really major.  Not because anything is wrong with the piece I'm looking at, or with me, but I'm just not affected.  Not everyone will react to a given thing the same way, so I think that's fine.  However, I can appreciate - or try to appreciate - the craft and technique that goes into a piece even if I don't really care too much about the meaning.  Even if someone prefaces their note with "this is an exercise" or "slapped together", if there is some particularly good use of technique or something, I am happy to highlight it.

Along these lines, few people in this activity are brave enough to really look at and comment on items that contain male nudity.  I am disappointed by this.  People around here are very comfortable ogling female nudity but - guys - come on, be bold :)

hey...i love lookin at nekkid dudes!

Please remove me from the group... As much as I appreciate the comments and feel that I've improved since joining this... I just get the feeling of no one caring about what I make. Sometimes when I -slap something together- some of my best images are born and its mostly because as I've said my ideas take on a mind of their own.

I plan to keep everyone in my faves because I really look forward to seeing what everyone has done but I won't be critiquing as much. 

Hugs and thank you to everyone, I really feel this group has helped me.

No one caring? 

but i've enjoyed your work and commented on a good deal of it.  every time i've critiqued it, i took a good bit of time.  i certainly care about your work and hope you'll change your mind.

Agreed, pretty sure I have commented on every one of yours Anasta, and not with just "super".

I dont understand it either. I'v only been in the group a week and I commented on two pictures.
Is it because of  comments made in this thread about  pieces put up realy quickly dont deserve commenting on? I think the main objections were to the attitude of  "I dont realy care about the image I've posted"   which results in the viewer thinking "I dont care either, I wont comment".is that what you feel about yours?I doubt it. Based on the reality that people still commented on your posts, clearly they didnt mean you. 
Some people plan their work in advance, some let it flow. My paintings quite often have a life of their own. Sometimes I just splash some colors on paper,  see what the shapes suggest and continue from there. Room for all of us.
I hope you change your mind

EVERYONE has their own work-flow.  Comment on the PIECE, not the work-flow.  Some people can 'slap' work together in an hour and it'll be the work of the age! (I hate people like that. :lol:)

It takes me longer.  It takes other people much longer than me.  JEEZ!  Guys--this is niether a popularity contest, NOR a race to see if who can produce the most!  We're sort of like a 'band of brothers', making art and needing comments, and sort of fighting the good fight to make the world a better place through art, and expressing our inner demons, and giving our dreams wings.

Quote - Please remove me from the group... As much as I appreciate the comments and feel that I've improved since joining this... I just get the feeling of no one caring about what I make.

I'm confused as well about that statement.

Not everyone in this group will post comments for every image uploaded by someone in this group.  That's not what this group is about.

It's about giving feedback on images that we each feel we have something  constructive to give. If I see an image where I don't feel I have anything constructive to say other than "nice image", then I won't bother commenting. This isn't about generating comments, it's about giving constructive and helpful comments.  If it was all about posting "nice image" type comments, then there would be no point to this group because that's all that people were posting before.

I for one look at every image uploaded, but I don't have something to say on a lot of them for various reasons from an image being a genre not to my taste or ill health and lack of attention span to give a proper review.

I think it's really unfair to say that no one cares because you aren't getting maximum comments from everyone in this group. I have looked back in your gallery and I see some very helpful comments, and I also see many comments offering praise.

I suppose I worded that wrong... Its not that no one cares its really just that sometimes I feel like its a bit too harsh. Not that anyone has said anything in particular that has upset me but more that maybe I'm just too sensitive. From now on I'll just set the comments to non-critical in case I feel I need an 'oooh and aahh' image to lift my spirits.

I really have learned so much from this group. I just guess I don't want critiques on -everything- I do...

Anasta, you just can learn when you know what kind of mistakes you do. Whithout knowing about your mistakes ...how do you will learn ???

Quote - I just guess I don't want critiques on -everything- I do...

Yes, that does seem to be an issue with this, which is why I posted earlier that I felt a forum would be better so that people could post their WIP images in the forum and have critiques given there and then be able to upload the finished image to their gallery to showcase it...which IMHO is what I have always felt an art gallery is really for... finished pieces that you want to put on display and show off to those interested in looking and if some of those people who look, feel inspired or moved by it to leave a comment, so be it.

As it is now everything uploaded to the gallery if you are a member of this group, is considered fair game unless you turn off comments or put something tacky in the title like "NOT FOR CRITIQUE"

Quote -

As it is now everything uploaded to the gallery if you are a member of this group, is considered fair game unless you turn off comments or put something tacky in the title like "NOT FOR CRITIQUE"

i should do this too. every time i upload a new pic, my first thought is "this time they dont find anything" :tt2: ( the critique club)
And what happens!!!! They find something to critique. :scared:
But one day i got you all. One day i upload a pic you just :woot:     hehehehe

At least you feel creative enough to upload something to be critiqued!  My muse has up and left me again. I feel totally uninspired to create anything :(

@ Acadia--Play around and slap something together.:woot: LOL  Make up a story.  Think about your favorite movie, or book and wonder about some characters and situations.  You muse might be napping, but if you make enough noise having fun, she'll come a running!

Muses are like cats.  If you're doing something that attracts their attention, they have to grab center-stage and get petted. :lol:

acadia - why do you keep saying that when you know that's not how it works?  if someone doesn't want critical comments, there's a pull-down menu when you upload that you should mark, "Non-critical comments preferred."  the only way it's a problem is if someone is dishonest and posts with "Both critical and non-critical comments are welcomed," when in fact critcal comments are not welcome. 

and how is making it obvious you only want appreciative comments tacky?  we've talked a lot about the culture of  ooh and aah,  and i don't think it's negative to teach people that they should do something to mark their work instead of constantly posting images with "Both critical and non-critical comments welcomed," and then blowing up when they get any comments that aren't glowing.

Anasta - i just checked, and it seems that all of your works are marked with the latter instead of the former.  just to say, you shouldn't feel obligated to open all your works to review, whether you're in the group favorites or not.  and you certainly shouldn't feel that you have to say you'll welcome critiques when you won't.    there's no way you should react to critiques, and even if we all just admire your work and want it to get better, you won't necessarily feel that coming through your monitor.   please don't feel shy about saying you don't want critical remarks.

and please don't feel shy about dropping into the forum if you do want lots of eyes and lots of help with an image.

Quote -
i should do this too. every time i upload a new pic, my first thought is "this time they dont find anything" :tt2: ( the critique club)
And what happens!!!! They find something to critique. :scared:
But one day i got you all. One day i upload a pic you just :woot:     hehehehe

Hehehehe Ladona I just laught by seeing the smilies and your comment. Its very funny and I really love it :)

Quote - @ Acadia--Play around and slap something together.:woot: LOL 

Unfortunately my  creative process doesn't work like that.  When I feel a creative spark, it's literally a spark.  It's either there or it isn't.  Anything artistic (writing, drawing, computer stuff) I need to "see" in my mind's eye the finished project.  When I sit down to write a short story or poem, it's already in my head from start to finish and all I am doing is literally sitting there taking dictation from somewhere within the creative centre of my brain. The same goes for art. I see the finished image in my head and all I have to do is recreate what I'm "seeing". If I don't "see" it, I can't create it.

I also look at art differently than most people.  When most people look at an image they see the image. I "read" images/pictures. I don't see a whole image, I see components of an image, and only after I have read that image does my brain interpret it into a whole.

On a side note I do the same thing with perfumes/fragrances.  I never smell the final scent until after my brain has processed the individual notes to get to the core of the fragrance.

Quote - and how is making it obvious you only want appreciative comments tacky? 

I think we have different definitions of the word "tacky".

In jest, I mearly suggested that if you don't want to have critique group comments in your images that you could go the extreme and add something like "no critique group comments" to the title, but that would be "tacky" as in ugly or garish to see beside image titles.

Quote -
I also look at art differently than most people.  When most people look at an image they see the image. I "read" images/pictures. I don't see a whole image, I see components of an image, and only after I have read that image does my brain interpret it into a whole.

Same by me. I need some time till I read the whole image. to many details getting lost if you just take a short look.

You don't have to be really heavy handed like putting something in the title, I think it's OK to just say "This is just X, no critique required for this one."

You don't have to be really heavy handed like putting something in the title, I think it's OK to just say "This is just X, no critique required for this one."

Quote - You don't have to be really heavy handed like putting something in the title,

I was only joking!!!!! 

Oops :blushing:

It's ok.  I see how it could have been mistaken for having been a serious suggestion. I see I failed to add any cute little emotes :)  But really, I was joking and I thought "tacky" was sufficient. I never dreamed it would be taken as a serious suggestion,  LOL

Quote -

Hehehehe Ladona I just laught by seeing the smilies and your comment. Its very funny and I really love it :)

LOL It was very late in the night and somehow my brain was empty...   :blushing:

I can remember when i started whit Poser a few years ago. My poser mentor was very hard to me. Sometimes, ( the most of the times) i really hated her. She really give me a hard time because i must do each pic over and over again. Until she was satisfied.
But this was the best way to learn.  And i still have to learn a lot .

Quote - > Quote -

I also look at art differently than most people.  When most people look at an image they see the image. I "read" images/pictures. I don't see a whole image, I see components of an image, and only after I have read that image does my brain interpret it into a whole.

 

Same by me. I need some time till I read the whole image. to many details getting lost if you just take a short look.

 
I agree. "Art is the translation of an inner vision and understanding from the artist's mind to yours"
This was what my poser mentor teached me at first.
I saved this words from her beacause it is just true. But to understand the vision , its Necessary to take more than a short look. 

Quote - But to understand the vision , its Necessary to take more than a short look. 

Even if I wanted to take a quick look at an image, I can't. My brain can't process the full image all at once. I literally don't see a whole image when I initially look at it.  When I click on a link to view an image, I see bits and pieces of it... like random words on a page that haven't come together to tell a story. When I said I "read" an image, I really "read" the image and it's not a conscious decision to spend more or less time looking at something.  Let's look at Edmund Leighton's "The Accolade" image for example (probably my favourite piece of fantasy art).  When most people look at this image they see a Queen and a kneeling man who is being knighted.  I don't see that, at least not initially.  

What I see are pieces  or elements of the image: colours, shapes, shadows, highlights, the drape of a sleeve, the wave of the hair, a helmet on the floor......all individually, like a puzzle that hasn't been put together to form a complete picture.    Just like when you read. You  don't instantly see the story: you see individual words that come together to form first a sentence, then a paragraph, then a chapter and ultimately a whole story.  But you don't get the story until you have spent time reading each word in that story.

I don't know why my brain sees images that way, but it does.  It's possible that it's because I'm dyslexic or that I started life out as a "lefty" and was smacked and converted to a  "righty".  It's a medical fact that the brains of those who are left handed are wired differently than those who are right handed.  So it's my theory that because I started off using my left hand and now my right hand is my dominant one, that the two sides of my brain conflict with each other.  I also suspect that my dyslexia is a direct  result of this.

I sometimes wish I could take a picture of how I "see" things sometimes because it's really difficult to explain it.

I do look at everyone's images, but I don't comment on everyone.  For me that would be impossible with the size of the group at this point. RL just will not allow it.  I wish there were more hours in the day :(

For me, the comments on my images have been very helpful. You are all pushing me out of my comfort zone, and that's a good thing. I do have a tendancy to be a bit lazy. Thank you everyone  :biggrin:

Acadia - sorry i didn't see that as a joke.  and interestingly, nope, i don't see each word make a story.  when i read it's like watching a movie.  i remember certain lines, but overall, i swallow it whole.  i read, and the words matter, but i see the whole story, not each word.  for me, reading is like looking at a picture: each brush stroke matters but what i get is an impression of the whole.

but how you talk about reading images reminds me of my friend who's a pretty successful artist / illustrator / designer.  once, in college, a mutual friend of ours spent some time interpretting the lyrics to songs on the album ten.  he was a total physics guy, got horrible grades in everything not scientific.  and so he's interpretting this stuff, but he's also deciding to read sentences like equations- putting one word together with another in linear fashion.  i go along with him  on this, and immediately find popular rock lyrics unintelligible.  

so i relate this to my friend, who's already taking a killer design course and  was an accomplished artist.  i say, no wonder he hates writing and reading (to the extent of finding writing lab reports difficult).   and she says, "how else would you read?" i was literally shocked, because she always wrote well, loved language, and read frequently.  but then, she always had as unique a way with words, and the interpretation of others' words, as she did with every other medium.  also, she had come to think she might have been mildly dyslexic, having struggled with reading and writing as a kid, especially learning to write her name forwards instead of backwards (which she could still do without thinking about it). 

today, her artwork combines illustrations, words, and photographs.  and i think some of that is because she never saw any of them as separate.  and she loves to read the dictionary.