Only way you get good is to find out what you are doing wrong!

Sign me up to, even though I don't post as often as the rest of you.

Are all the ebots dead or something?  It's been more than a day since I've recieved any notices of anyone posting anything, or gotten any comments on latest submissions. Is my latest stuff so awful or has just everyone has taken a couple of days off, and I just didn't get the notice? :lol:

@ Conniekat --I tried some of the stuff you helped me with last week in the latest piece.  Hope you like it. ^__^ V,,  And thanks for the help!

For me Joe I have to save yours for the weekends.  It's necessary to read the story that comes with in order to understand the picture (for me at least) - so I just don't have time until the weekend comes : /         

For me Joe I have to save yours for the weekends.  It's necessary to read the story that comes with in order to understand the picture (for me at least) - so I just don't have time until the weekend comes : /                  

I was wondering about a whole day has passed and NOONE posted anything?  I haven't recieved any ebots about anyone's new stuff.

@ Ladonna-- I didn't mean you to take a pack of dogs on your picnic!  Though that sounds like a GREAT base for a funny render. LOL :lol:  Life is strange that way.

Hi all. What with one thing and another i've been out of things for the last couple of weeks. I've just added the latest update of new people but i've no idea who i might have missed. That list is getting rather long now and must be a bit of a burden for new people joining. Is there not a better way (automated?) of keeping track of the comings and goings of list members?

Jack

I ditto that, in the first weeks I added a lot of people to my favourite list, but R.L. has keeping me extremely busy, and now I have lost track about who is in and who isn't. In about two weeks I'm getting a little more time, and I hope to update my list then. Sorry, for all the members that I haven't give everyone the commenst and compliments they deserve, but at least I have taken the time to look at all the pictures that entered my malibox. Thanks everyone for all the reactions on my latest contribution.

regards,

Bopperthijs

This issue keeps coming up. A few weeks ago, at the end of the last round of comments and departures of unhappy group members karen compiled a list of suggestions for improvments.
This sounded very hopefull since many of the suggestions were quite good or at least acceptable improvments. However, nothing happened.  Not even a definite rejection of some or all of the suggestions. Very annoying.

I think I know what's going on. It's simple, now that RL has explained it to me! IT'S VACATION TIME!  I wasn't concerned about people making comments on my stuff, I was more concerned with missing something due to the e-bots being messed up for a couple of days and then get a hundred at week's end! @__@;  No one needs that!

BUT--I just got an e-bot, so they must be working.

To be blunt (one thing I do so easily :lol:)--there are SO MANY good artists in the crit group--I don't want to miss one!

Don't worry about comments. There are SO MANY things in the real world to stress about--DO NOT STRESS over making comments on anything here.  Comment when you can--everyone knows RL can be a real bear.  It'll bite you when hungry, and you should never poke it with a stick when it's doing it's business in your backyard! :lol:

*""This issue keeps coming up. A few weeks ago, at the end of the last round of comments and departures of unhappy group members karen compiled a list of suggestions for improvments.
This sounded very hopefull since many of the suggestions were quite good or at least acceptable improvments. However, nothing happened.  Not even a definite rejection of some or all of the suggestions. Very annoying.""

*Indeed.  The entire thing has become kinda annoying to me.  I'm certain that some people are futhering the comment club idea with this and that is way frustrating.  I'm not sure why there can't just be another forum for this.

This issue keeps coming up. A few weeks ago, at the end of the last round of comments and departures of unhappy group members karen compiled a list of suggestions for improvments.
This sounded very hopefull since many of the suggestions were quite good or at least acceptable improvments. However, nothing happened.  Not even a definite rejection of some or all of the suggestions. Very annoying.

Well I'm still waiting for all of YOU guys to tell me what you thought of the various suggestions...

Sorry for the delays lately guys, the new people have now been added.
I have all kinds of mess going on here right now :sneaky:

I still work prefer a forum for feedback, easier to discuss things. Then the final image could be added to the gallery.

Quote - I still work prefer a forum for feedback, easier to discuss things. Then the final image could be added to the gallery.

The same for me. I think it could be more useful like that.

I thought a lot of you were using the Art Theory forum for that. Has that stopped?

I haven't used it.  To me, that forum (Art Theory) is slightly similar to this but not really.

Hi Karen - I thought you wre going to have some thought of questioner sent out (IM? e-mail? to all in the  group to get as wide a range of answers as possible, so I was waiting for that...Stil think that would be better than just relying on people to look at this thread.
I took the liberty of editing your list to add numbers so people who express their preference can do it easier, hope you dont mind.
Karen's list :

Anyway... Let's just review a few ideas and suggestions. I'd like to really blueksy things so don't hold back. Here's what we've got so far:

• 1.Current gallery method (i.e. adding everyone to faves and commenting from your faves list)

• 2.Just commenting based on the list of members in the opening post

• 3.Using a forum-based discussion method (is currently being used by some of the group in the Art Theory forum)

• 4.Having a new section of the gallery

• 5.Having a new genre in the gallery

• 6.Ability to select multiple genres at upload

• 7.Some kind of community-group or buddy-system (similar to group systems on networking sites such as myspace or livejournal)

• 8.Using keywords to search for images where critique is appreciated

• 9.Having a "critique filter" at upload

• 10.The ability to have multiple comments and replies to comments under gallery images

• 11.Restricting the group to a certain size (suggestions on size?)

OK keep 'em coming folks.... The more suggestions and discussion, the better we can make any changes we need to keep the torch burning, so to speak :-)
My opinions about the various suggestions:
1.No. large hustle when joining, need to keep watching the list to add new members, need to ask to be removed /readded when we have periods we cant be in. Hustle for Karen

1. I know some people do that anyway, and some people dont like the e-bots, but I like to be told when group members post new images, so for me that's not enough. And it stil the problems in 1. remain. YOU CAN TURN OFF GETTING E_BOTS if that is your only problem with current method.
2. As Karen just said - this already exists, in the form of the art-theory forum. I think it should stay as an additional way of getting opinions/discussions. BASED UPON RESULTS people do not think its a good enough solution - its under used. Those in favor of this method - start using what's there already
   4.&5I am not giving up asigning my posts to 'poser'  or whatever the section is. I am not giving up assigning my post to surrealism (or whatever) genre. If I have to chose I'll give up critique group
3. Obviousely I support this option as I helped formulate this suggestion. It can be either multiple genres or multiple galleries. In addition to helping the critique group this will have general benefits to other members who use more than 1 technique (poser &Vue for example) and/or more than one genre (surrealism and nature for example).
   DONT BITE MY HEAD OFF - i know this could be a major undertaking for the rendo computational team...
   7.I am not on any network buddy system so I am not sure how it would work, but if yeach of us has to add every oneelse manually - no good.
4. That was raised as a suggestion by fivecat and I see nothing wrong with it. No extra work fro Karen.No extra work joining or leaving, you can have some of your work up for critique and some not (by not adding this key-word) you can be out of the 'group' for a while and back in when you want. No e-bots for those who hate them.
   ALTHOUGH - could be nice to have an option for e-bots on specific key-words.
   (Is this also major undertaking etc..)
   This is my second best choice
5. Sorry - must have not payed attention, dont know how this whould work
6. This would be lovely - probably nicest solution, but it is only of use to this group and surely this would be a mamouth undertaking etc ect.
7. No this sounds really snobish and of limited usefulness, If I want help via comments I want it now not when there isnt a waiting list. And a limited time wouldnt be use - everyone learns at different speed, and there is always more to learn.
   Sorry if this turned out an assay, hopefully this is all I have to say in the subject. Also appologies if I dont sound very patient/polite/understanding - this isnt what I planned for this morning, so I'm trying to get it out of the way

10 is what we do at Deviant Art, the largest on-line artist thingy going on.  It works bang up there.

IMPORTANT NOTE!: It works ther on INTERNAL notification, NOT E-bot!

You go there and at the top of the site-banner it might say  "3 Deviations (art submissions) 2 comments 1 Note".

NO e-bots!  That would save a lot of Email spamming from everyone and everything, dammit!  It's gotten so bad, I almost don't even follow ANY forum threads any more!  Yes, e-bot CAN be turned off, but it is a pain, ESPECIALLY if you have interest in following certain threads!

I didn't realize how low-hassle DA's system was until I got involved in the same kind of groups here, that I was involved in there and GOT BURIED ALIVE!

Of course this is something that would cause a MAJOR restructuring of Renderosity's whole notification system.

ONE HUGE IMPORTANT TO ASK OF MANAGEMENT HERE: Would internal notification be cheaper than than sending thousands to millions of emails a day?

Those are my thoughts about it.

I like the system we have now, i just wish it was easier to keep track of and add/delete favorites.

Jack

Quote - NO e-bots!  That would save a lot of Email spamming from everyone and everything, dammit!  It's gotten so bad, I almost don't even follow ANY forum threads any more!  Yes, e-bot CAN be turned off, but it is a pain, ESPECIALLY if you have interest in following certain threads!

I didn't realize how low-hassle DA's system was until I got involved in the same kind of groups here, that I was involved in there and GOT BURIED ALIVE!

Of course this is something that would cause a MAJOR restructuring of Renderosity's whole notification system.

ONE HUGE IMPORTANT TO ASK OF MANAGEMENT HERE: Would internal notification be cheaper than than sending thousands to millions of emails a day?

Those are my thoughts about it.

Doesn't your email programme have the ability to create rules?

That is what I do with the gallery bots here, so they go in a separate folder & do not spam my inbox

Nope.  One inbox and th-th-that's all, folks!

jjroland:
I haven't used it.  To me, that forum (Art Theory) is slightly similar to this but not really.

LOL, I'm sorry, it just made me laugh. "Slightly similar to this but not really" is just what a friend of mine would say to describe... well just about anything, and expect you to know exactly what she means!
 :m_laugh:

ArtPearl, thanks for numbering the choices.

There isn't a way to send out mass emails/IMs (even for staff) so I couldn't really send out to everyone. Well, not without enough copy/pasting to make my hands fall off :tt2:

Anyway please do all let me know what seems to be the most favoured solution. 
I think part of the problem is that we all have different preferences and visions for how we'd like it to work... 
Don't worry about how complex you think something might be to implement. Just go for "ideal world" scenarios.

I think the choices are not mutually exclusive. I vote for 6 and 10.

my vote (as a critic of the critique group, and not as a member) is to use the art theory forum, and to continue to limit critical comments to one per critic in gallery.

""jjroland:
I haven't used it.  To me, that forum (Art Theory) is slightly similar to this but not really.

*LOL, I'm sorry, it just made me laugh. "Slightly similar to this but not really" is just what a friend of mine would say to describe... well just about anything, and expect you to know exactly what she means!""
.
.
.
*Lol yeah - I knew that was a little vague but I was not / and still am not sure of a proper way to word it.  Let's pretend for a moment as if I am ONLY speaking about myself (so as not to offend anyone else):  I'm not sure you could classify anything I do as "art" as in the kind of stuff they hang in museums and people spend years of thier life understanding - studying and absorbed by.  To ME the art theory forum seemed to be the place for those people - you know the ones who actually make and comprehend art worthy of being called art.

So I had not posted in that forum because I felt out of place taking over a forum that to me seemed to be for people WELL above my level of skill.  I'd feel like I had gone to a poetry reading where the greats were going to be discussed and pulling out my doodle pad with a "roses are red" poem on it.

If an "Art Theory" forum is the same as a "WIP" forum then color me corrected.  I really don't know.

And that WORDY bit is my explaination on my previous one sentence statement :p

I wish I could help, but while I know there are lots of things wrong with the way the current group is, I don't know how to fix it other than to go away from the gallery and into a forum and leave the gallery completely out of it and for a place to display the finished piece which to me is what a gallery is for.

In a forum if someone wants help on an image, they can post the image in a new thread and get feedback on an ongoing basis.

As it is now in the gallery many are using it as a way to increase their views and comments, and many have resorted to useless comments too. It's become a kind of "clique."

In addition instead of this just being a list that people can put their names to people know that they are open to really honest comments, it's morphed into something else and has taken on a different personna:  one in which people who sign up are expecting people in the list to view their images and make comments on them and get upset when people don't and others who have no time to comment, yet have time to create images, feel the need to apologize for not commenting on other peoples' work.

Also, it's a PITA to add and remove people.

Adding people to the favourites affects the gallery ratings.

I just strongly feel that a forum mode would be more appropriate.

A forum would also take away the expectation that people seem to have that if they have added someone to their favourites list or added their name to a group list, that people HAVE to comment on their images that are uploaded.

Maybe that is the best way to do it around here: A special gallery where WIPs can be uploaded to and a WIP forum to post WIP threads for feedback..

Maybe a special ebot response to posting the WIP gallery, AND it being a "Private" gallery?  I actually feel queasy about posting 'unfinished' works to the general populace to get crits from people who don't realize the pic is under development.

DA has a special notation for WIPs called 'Scraps' indicating unfinished works.  The gallery could either be: 1) Private for the artist  or 2)Private for the group at large.

For a private gallery open to group members only, I'd prefer a notification on EACH WIP posted to that gallery.  Join the Crit group, you get to post to the 'private' gallery, and you recieve notices when someone posts to it?

It's sort of a wild idea---what do you folks think?

@JOELGLAINE - 

I haven't received any 'bots about this forum in a while I didn't know it was this active.
That being said, I love the idea of a special WIP gallery and forum for the Crit Group.  To me that makes the most sense since, like you, I hesitate on posting images into the galleries knowing that they're not quite right.

RL has kept me pretty busy lately, what with another surgery for me and then, a week later, one for my daughter-in-law which left me in a cast AND primary caregiver to my grandbabies so I'm totally remiss in my commenting but it's starting to quiet down a bit here and I'll be commenting more.

On that note, I do not and will not expect everyone to comment on my images.  I appreciate the great suggestions and critiques I've gotten so far and, as a lot of you know, have taken them to heart and gone back to rework some of my images.  I'll keep doing that because each suggestion is worth a try.  In return, please do not expect me to comment on all the images that get posted.  Sometimes it's just a matter of personal taste, other times it's that I just don't have the expertise to suggest a fix.  I will never comment on composition unless it's something really glaring because, as so many have said before, this is our art and we do it mostly for ourselves.

I prefer forum type interaction.
People whom want critique could post an image to a gallery, and give a link to it in a forum, and describe what it is they may want critique on, if there is anything specific. Also, there's more interaction. Peple may even be able to mark up their comments on a copy of an image...
If a lot of people prefer a forum, perhaps a new forum can be added for critiques. Art theory forum could work too. Most of the critique does tend to be related to art theory, so it wouldn't be all that inappropriate.

With critique forum, I could subscribe to forum, or watrch for new posts, which I'm alreeady in a habit of doing for a number of forums. It's actualy more in sync with how I use most of this site.
Also, it may limit tose whom post an image per day to ask for critique on specific items only.

I get little burned out with commenting on images when I don't know what the individual wants from critique, and also, when I see same issue repeating image after image after image, and no feedback from the member.

Critique for the sake of learning needs to be an interactive, and many times iterative proces. I think forum style interaction lends itself to this much better then galleries.

This would also eliminate the need for favoriting people, keping the list up to date, watching emails, worrying about skewing the art charts, avoiding comercial images, and would eliminate the need to keep membership roster, and people feeling like they are obligated to respond.

Also, most of people whom know about the critique group, know about it because of the forum, so it wouldn't require a big detour in their habits to use a critique or art theory forum.

anrd a spellchecker for me, pleez ;)

Current gallery method (i.e. adding everyone to faves and commenting from your faves list)

Why not create a sub category for WIP images in the gallery to be commented on, create a forum here for that discussion, and create a preference we could set in our personal account options, that would either join us up, or keep us unjoined, and then if we join the group, the system would automatically update everyone's favorite list? 

Or would that be too much work?

I'd like to join again, I got the sort of feedback that was very very helpful to me in making my images better. But that said, I just could not keep up with the who's in and who's not in. Wich as a result caused me not to leave too many comments at all, because I am not about to leave a critique of an image in the gallery, only to have someone who used to be in the group give me the riot act for it as they are now not in the group.

Just a couple of thoughts in response to what's been posted so far...

We do already have a WIP genre in each gallery, as well as an entire WIP gallery.
(So, you can choose for example Poser>WIP, or WIP>SciFi.)

I think the reason some people are opposed to using the WIP genre is because a) sometimes the work isn't WIP - it's a finished work, the artist doesn't intend to make any changes, but they would like critique for future work.
And b) the WIP gallery certainly doesn't get the views that Poser does.

I'm starting to lean towards starting a new forum. It would mean we could have challenges, our own useful stickies, our own "community info" area...  I'd just need to persuade some other sucker to co-mod with me, hehehe! Although that said, you guys are very well-behaved, so I can't imagine having to get out the ol' staff issue clue-by-four very often ;o)

A-HA!  "staff issue clue-by-four "  How mystical sounding! :lol:  Sort of a "Get a clue" Stick?

Quote - I prefer forum type interaction.
People whom want critique could post an image to a gallery, and give a link to it in a forum, and describe what it is they may want critique on, if there is anything specific. Also, there's more interaction. Peple may even be able to mark up their comments on a copy of an image...
If a lot of people prefer a forum, perhaps a new forum can be added for critiques. Art theory forum could work too. Most of the critique does tend to be related to art theory, so it wouldn't be all that inappropriate.

With critique forum, I could subscribe to forum, or watrch for new posts, which I'm alreeady in a habit of doing for a number of forums. It's actualy more in sync with how I use most of this site.
Also, it may limit tose whom post an image per day to ask for critique on specific items only.

I get little burned out with commenting on images when I don't know what the individual wants from critique, and also, when I see same issue repeating image after image after image, and no feedback from the member.

Critique for the sake of learning needs to be an interactive, and many times iterative proces. I think forum style interaction lends itself to this much better then galleries.

This would also eliminate the need for favoriting people, keping the list up to date, watching emails, worrying about skewing the art charts, avoiding comercial images, and would eliminate the need to keep membership roster, and people feeling like they are obligated to respond.

Also, most of people whom know about the critique group, know about it because of the forum, so it wouldn't require a big detour in their habits to use a critique or art theory forum.

I agree the majority of what Connie said, these are most of my reasons for wanting a forum.

There have been times when people have made a particular suggestion regarding an image I have posted, & I have PM'd them for more info or to ask what they mean if I haven't understood. I am sure others would benefit from the resulting info gleaned, but as it is, only I see it.

Also because of the size of the group now, I think people are a bit worn out trying to keep up, I know I am. When the group first started the critique comments were quite detailed, but I have noticed lately, they are nothing like they were originally. I think it would be easier to explore an image in better detail in a forum rather than in the gallery.

Yep, it's mainly used for whacking trolls with :lol:

I hadn't realised there was already a WIP gallery and sub-genre - worth knowing for future uploads. Would it be possible to get a 'critique' sub-genre set up along the same lines? And would people use it?

I like the idea of a separate forum, so that individuals can have their own threads for their own work. Trying to keep all the Critique stuff into one forum thread, with a list of artists who wish to be favourited on the first page, doesn't sem to be working for me - whilst I try to look at all the images I get notified about, I know I don't have more than half of the people listed in my favourites - I'm sorry, but it's become too time-consuming. I really want to be a part of this group, but at the moment it's just not organised in such a way that I feel I can contribute productively to it.

JonTheCelt

Jon,

Yes, we could quite easily make a new genre in each gallery for Critique. This would also encourage non-forum-users (and there are quite a lot!) to critique, perhaps.

Maybe a whole Gallery, actually. I don't know. What do you guys think?

I think a Critique gallery is a good idea.  Anyone could post an image there  knowing that it's going to be critiqued.  We would, of course, have to put the disclaimer up at the top to let users know that's what the gallery is for.

Oh well ... of to post a wip in the Art Theory forum.

Looking at ArtPearl's comments earlier, I think a whole genre/gallery devoted to critique would only satisfy some folks here if they could post images to multiple galleries at the same time. I think this would be less important for WIP stuff than the finished product - would you rather put your final image into the critique gallery, or the Poser/Vue/whatver gallery? it's a difficult choice to make, and being able to put one image into several options would take this problem away.

JonTheCelt

Hmmm. a crit gallery sounds along the right lines.

As much as I like the idea a critique genre, I'd find it difficult to use with only two genre options :(
Besides, we already have critical and non critical comments toggle switch, and it's rather unnoticed.
Perhaps changing the critical comments welcome into something more obvious, and calling it 'critical comments requested' - with a link to the critique forum.
Perhaps something when someone turns the critique requested switch on, it automatically creates a thread or some sort of a flag or notification in a critique forum, that this member is requesting critique on their piece. A thread for critique, and a link to their image in the gallery.

I'm thinking this will allow members to request critique without losing the opportunity to exhibit their images in other galleries... For example Poser and Pinup, or Vue and Landscape or what not... It seems to be a given that when something is added, if a small part of something else is taken away to make it function, the likelyhood of people getting up in arms only increases ;)

Also, to add to it all, I gather that most of the interest has come from the poser forum, but it may be good to make people from other forums aware of it (those whom perhaps aren't crossing over)

karen said to post comments here - so here's my other comment: allow critics to accumulate store credits when they post a comment that's helpful and supportive. e.g. 0 credits for "wow, great image!" but 1 credit for "the render has nostril glow, and ya fix that by zooming in on the shadowcam, or by using proper IBL/AO settings."

I like that idea, Miss Nancy.

I just want to pipe back in here that I REALLY prefer a forum over another gallery option.  As has been previously mentioned - the gallery does not allow for enough give and take.  If we could have both it would be a winner for me.

I like the forum idea.   >.>  I'm trying to get up to snuff to have anything worth showing.  Yes, I'm hyper-critical of my own stuff >.>   at least with the forum, it'll be easier to track : )

Yeah, there's no reason we can't have both a gallery and forum, if that's what people prefer. I'm all about having choices :-)

Connie:
Perhaps something when someone turns the critique requested switch on, it automatically creates a thread or some sort of a flag or notification in a critique forum, that this member is requesting critique on their piece. A thread for critique, and a link to their image in the gallery.

I think making it work like that would bring the system to its knees, but I can see possibilities in developing this idea further. This is more or less what I meant when I suggested a critique "filter" (just like the nudity and violence filters) so that you could choose to specifically view images depending on whether or not they requested crit. So for example, I could go to the Poser gallery and select "All" and "Critique requested" or "2D" and "People" and "All" or "Bryce" and "SciFi" and "Critique requested"... you get the idea. The critique "flag" should also be visible on the main gallery page (again, like nudity and violence) so that you could just randomly surf, as I know a lot of people do.

Keep the ideas flowing, folks...

Quote - karen said to post comments here - so here's my other comment: allow critics to accumulate store credits when they post a comment that's helpful and supportive. e.g. 0 credits for "wow, great image!" but 1 credit for "the render has nostril glow, and ya fix that by zooming in on the shadowcam, or by using proper IBL/AO settings."

Who gets to be thrown to the wolves for doing the ratings?

Oh my, MissNancy, then we'd need a critique group to critique the critiquers... ;o)

Talk about quis custodiet ipsos custodien... (or however that goes, Latin ain't my strong point)

I hereby nominate Miss Nancy to be the critic's critic ;)

Karen said: I think making it work like that would bring the system to its kneesgiggles you did say to not worry about how complicated it is :blink:

About points for the critics... if we're concerned about constructive critique, pwehaps those whose image is being critiqued may have an option to rate the critic... useless...not veru helpful...somewhat helpful...relly helpful and... wonderful help... something to that effect.

Ofcourse, that could lead to a critique clique and a whole new opportunity for a buddy system ;)