Having been ticked off by Karen for being aggressive here, I am trying to choose my words carefully.   I have noticed that some newcomers to the site are intimidated by the vociferous responses.   They submit questions like people approaching the Great King enthroned in Persepolis.   I don't think my misdemeanours have anything to do with this (admittedly, I would say that).   The problem is that a newcomer enters a question that has been answered before and someone very abruptly and aggressively says so, without revealing what the earlier answer may have been.   The newcomer is compelled to resort to the useless Renderosity forum search engine, which, to be perfectly honest, gives the impression of having been unearthed in Persepolis in the first place.

If you know the answer, say it.   If you don't know, don't reply.

I can't tell you how many emails or PMs I get from people who are afraid to post their questions here so they ask me privately.

I haven't asked anyone why they are afraid to post  but I'm sure that noticing the responses that some other people get is a factor.

Darius?  Alexander? or Xerxes? ..;)
The thing is, there are always going to be newcomers. I've long been ticked off myself by the 'this must be a stupid question'...and go on in the next paragraph to ask about parsing python files, or rewriting cr2s..;)

People will learn at their own speed. I think what Curious Labs and Daz 3d should keep in mind (I'm sure they pop in here..in fact, I've seen them do it) is to note the 'stupid' questions of all sorts, and use them as information to improve the products in the future. 

Just my 2p.

There is no such thing as a stupid question. As you said, we all learn at our own pace and what may seem stupid or common sense to someone who has been using the program for months or years, it's a very real question and problem for someone relatively new to the program.

This FAQ should be required reading for anyone posting to forums online:

How to ask questions the smart way

This part is esp important:

Quote - Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not; you aren't, after all, paying for the service. You will earn an answer, if you earn it, by asking a substantial, interesting, and thought-provoking question — one that implicitly contributes to the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others.

I am talking about situations where the responder implies that he/she is well aware of what the answer may be, but commands the questioner to hunt in the labyrinthine archives.    Certainly, members of this forum can't claim any contractual entitlement to useful replies, but in which circumstances is it right that a member of the forum withholds the requested information, if it is freely available?

Quote - I am talking about situations where the responder implies that he/she is well aware of what the answer may be, but commands the questioner to hunt in the labyrinthine archives.   

I haven't seen very many of those types of responses. Granted there have been a few, but I think for the most part we as a community do pretty good in answering questions, even ones that have been asked multiple times in a few days.  Also, for each response that you see like that, someone will come along and provide a more indepth answer, at least they usually do.

Also, it's a good idea for people to get accustomed to searching using the search feature here.  I find this search engine by far the most superior to others I have tried, and that's because they allow you to narrow the search time down by "newer than" and "older than" date options.  Granted it's much easeir to search a forum when you are familiar with the forums and what has been posted on them. But it's a good idea for everyone to know how to use the search feature, just because there is such a wealth of information in older threads that you really won't know about until you actually search out certain topics and read the older threads on the subject.

Quote - I am talking about situations where the responder implies that he/she is well aware of what the answer may be, but commands the questioner to hunt in the labyrinthine archives.

I would hope nobody is being an actual snot to a newcomer...we are all new at one time to everything..and that sort of thing is totally uncalled for.

However, we do encourage members old and new to use the search feature, and even the new faqs pages for questions that have been asked multiple times...the faqs pages contain great info ;)

Quote - There is no such thing as a stupid question. As you said, we all learn at our own pace and what may seem stupid or common sense to someone who has been using the program for months or years, it's a very real question and problem for someone relatively new to the program.

There is, if you haven't bothered to conduct a forum search for the question first. 
DPH

""There is, if you haven't bothered to conduct a forum search for the question first. ""
 
Sometimes people get to wits end looking for answers they can never seem to find.  Me - myself, if I might know something ask me - Id rather give someone 2 minutes of my time than them have to search for hours (wasting much more time) just to not find the answer.

I look at it this way.  You can set this forum to see like 30 threads at a time.  So if you don't like one thread (a question you don't want to answer) then don't read it - but If you're like me and don't mind, then go ahead and help the guy/girl out.

OT *Pakled:  Darius?  Alexander? or Xerxes? ..;)

Sorry, missed this...   I think Darius I built Persepolis, didn't he, although I don't know if it was finished in his lifetime.   I suppose I had him in mind.   For obvious reasons, Greeks were less likely to regard Xerxes as "Great", although some of his successors managed to recover the kudos which he had dissipated.   In Classical Greek, basileus meant "king", but, in Athens, which didn't have kings from a fairly early date, it was the title of a pretty feeble official.*   Any other king, to the Greeks, was ho basileus, i.e. "the king", except for the Great King of Persia, who ruled such a vast empire (and it was incredibly vast) that no other king could possibly compare.   The Persian king was Basileus - capital Beta, no need for a definite article (Greek doesn't have an indefinite one).    It gets traditionally translated as "Great King" into English.  

Alexander burned Persepolis, reputedly during a drink-fuelled banquet.   Handel set it to music, in a very genteel sort of way.

Are you new to discussion fora in general?  "RTFM" has been a common answer to many questions since the first time I looked around in any online forum, all the way back to Usenet in something like 1989.

RTFM? What does that stand for?

Long ago, in another forum here, I decided this wasn't the place for me after seeing the RTFM response. The manual for that particular app was dog-eared. At another site, I lit into an Admin for posting a very snotty "use the Search function, dope" response. It's hard to search for an answer when you don't know the answer, or what the problem is exactly. People don't like to look stupid, so they hesitate to ask questions. When they do get brave enough to ask, they might sound on the kow-towing side, just so they don't get an answer that embarrasses them. Heck, maybe they haven't even spotted the Search up there. To quote another site's sticky: Think before you post. Do the right thing.

RTFM=Read the F**king Manual.

We have to remember also that while some peeps might be new to 3D stuff, they might also be "relatively" new to computers, or forums even and as such may not know how to go about using the search here, which isn't entirely user friendly is it!!

Attached Link: http://www.msc-inc.net/Documents/InternetSlang.htm

See attached link.

Well it's six on one hand, half a dozen on the other. Yes, we're all new at some point. Yes, we should answer questions when we know the answer and true, no one should be afraid to post....

On the other hand, people posting to the forum have some responsibilities as well. But people want a quick easy answer. Rather than searching the Poser PDF for, for instance, "Add Runtime" and getting three hits, with the answer on the third selection. That takes a small amount of effort. More effort, apparently than asking. There have been times when the last time the question was asked hasn't even fallen off the first page yet.

So, the new poster is not willing to read the manual, is not willing to read the fora (except for their question) and is not willing to search the fora. In that case, I don't think it's inappropriate to politely direct them back to the resources available for them.

Successful forum are like delicate ecosystems, with a great mix of different levels of technical expertise. But if a forum becomes overrun with people asking the same simple question over and over again, and these posters are enabled by getting detailed responses over and over again, the more advanced users will become frustrated and bored and move on to different forums. That would, in the end, destroy the delicate balance that makes this an interesting forum because mid-level users come here to learn from the more advanced users not just help beginners.

Just my two cents...

Some of that is very true Kalon.

I've seen the posts here where the same question is asked more than once just a couple threads apart.  But I think that the people who TRULY don't want to be bothered with searching for information for themselves fall off in short time anyway.

The ones who ask "How to I makes a poser model?"  and are given the incredibly complicated answer - 75% of the time never show up again.  What I'm saying is the people who just want a "make art"  "everyone does the work for me" button don't stick around long.

I've had 3 different people now (for others I'm sure it was many more) who when presented with the notion that they might have to actually read something in order to succeed with this 3D stuffs - just basically gave up. 

I guess I just look at it like beggars on the street.  I'd rather give them 1$ and have them not need it, then not give them $1 and have them need it.

Interesting topic. I, having spent probably WAY too much time reading forums, have  been mildly frustrated trying to find a potential answer to my question. for the record, I do make an
effort to search thoroughly but while doing so come across what seems like several
variations of: "can anybody HELP me?" or "newbie with question...".  the result being my 
having to spend hours poring through irrelevant posts to find an answer. I suspect some who
post a question (that may or may not have been answered already) give up after spending a lengthy amount of time digging through the forums and go ahead and post.
         This in itself can add to the problem,however, by submitting a question already
answered. therefore making the forums painfully and unecessarily lengthy.

Having said that-and I believe I've mentioned this before-It is equally frustrating when I post a question and the respondent well meaningly gives an answer that is the equivalent of giving a blind person a book to read. It is my opinion that one should safely assume the OP knows the very basics of the subject, unless the OP states otherwise, therefore saving each others'
time. I am always grateful (and let it be known ) for any responses I receive, whether helpful or not. but by following the above example,  perhaps everyone can benefit.
my two(and a half) cents.........    Ed

Please can someone help me. I'm trying to find the 'make art' button jjroland talks about but I can't find it. I'm sure it's in the manual but I can't be arsed to read it. I'd use the search engine but that seems more trouble than it's worth.

RTFM.
heehee.lol..........

Quote - Please can someone help me. I'm trying to find the 'make art' button jjroland talks about but I can't find it. I'm sure it's in the manual but I can't be arsed to read it. I'd use the search engine but that seems more trouble than it's worth.

Sheesh!

It's just to the left of the "Instant Expertise, no Learning" button. Sounds like you need  the "how to locate your buttons" switch turned on.

Okay, that's three cents, can I get four?

:tt2:

I've just ran a search for 'make art' in the last 45 days. It only brought up a thousand results. Watch me read through everyone & it'll be the last post which gives me the answer I'm looking for.

I met one of my very best friends through a PM asking for technical help.  And, as Acadia remarked, they were afraid to post a question in the forum.

BTW, the Make Art button is in the Python submenus in Wardrobe Wizard.  Really, it's there.

Hey kalon, I could do with that "Instant Expertise, no Learning" button. :woot:

Right, you guys are just making fun of me now. I was trying to be serious. :sad:

the search function here actually works, in its own inscrutable way. it could be more advanced IMVHO, but any search engine anywhere requires a modicum of human intelligence to narrow down the results. perhaps when they get the FAQ thread in place, it will be easier for newbies to find answers without the agony and embarrassment of having to post a message in the forum here. regarding the mods and co-ords here, they're under alotta pressure all the time, so try to bear with them.

Quote - Hey kalon, I could do with that "Instant Expertise, no Learning" button. :woot:

You and me, both. I hear it's on that alternate keyboard. It also has the "Weird Science" button-- you know, for super realistic benders, oops, I mean renders.

gives Miss Nancy a great big 'ol hug

Quote - Right, you guys are just making fun of me now. I was trying to be serious. :sad:

I promise the Make Art button is exactly where I said.

This is karma. For the first time in ages, I can't get something to work. Everyone else seems to get it. I read at least 5 threads on how to make it work. It doesn't work. No way am I going to look like the one dummy in the crowd and ask. Good grief, I couldn't even understand the explanations. :crying:

May I guess?

Matmatic? Parmatic? or AMUCSF?

go ahead and ask, scan. the peak of mentality is the negative judgement.

Yes. Yes. And yes. But I'll never admit I said that. ;) I worked around it. lee..who does not code...and evidently can't unzip LOL

Yes, the inscutable workings of Bagginsbill have humbled many a man and woman. I definitely count myself among that number.

Glad it all worked out.

You know, it might be a good idea to have a "Poser FAQ" (or something along those lines) forum.

But yeah, I've seen it where people got shot down in flames when trying to ask a question, and anyone who sees a response like that isn't likely to ask.. anything.

We've all started somewhere once.
Telling people to "Use search" (which I find incredibly rude btw) isn't the answer, especially not in this forum, where "Search" is the equivalent of "Stab in the Dark".
The only other place where I encounter a search function as bad as the one we have is at RDNA...
Actually, tell a lie. DAZ's search is crap too.

Attached Link: Node Forum at RDNA

Well Matmatic / Parmatic etc... I've attached the link. :)

(No idea if that was the question but hey! I insist this is helpful! :P)

well...Alexander was Macedonian, leading among others, Greeks (always trouble, that combination, an outsider leading a 'domestic' army. Napoleon and the French, Hitler and the Germans, Alexander and the Greeks..;)

Perseopolis sounds like a Greek name to me, which probably is what's throwing me off..;) Though both Persians and Greeks occupied it at one time or another. Interesting, though, I seem to remember that 'Baselius' was a rank in the Byzantine forces later on, something like 'general'. There was this general in the 7th Century  AD...;)

I dunno..you started the Greek thang..;) I was just playing along. I specialize in stupid answers, sometimes..;) Outside of the Hallelujah chorus, and Water Music, it's all I can Handel..;)

There are FAQ's here, fourth line under the forum title... and they're looking for volunteers to help update them.

This probably hasn't been said before, but isn't that what the forums are for?  Is to help people either newbie or seasoned?  I for one have never experienced a snotty answer from anyone however, I have read some condescending remarks by all kinds of people not just MODS.  I also haven't had any negative responses from MODS at all since I've been a memeber.  Just my 2 Cents.
Adrian

Pakled:  Yes, you're quite right:  "Persepolis" is Greek (sorry:  I wasn't disagreeing with you).    I suppose that the Persian Empire played such a big role in Greek life that the Greeks (both those who were under Persian rule and those who weren't) needed a convenient way to refer to the Persian capital.  

Silke:  *But yeah, I've seen it where people got shot down in flames when trying to ask a question, and anyone who sees a response like that isn't likely to ask.. anything.
*So have I.

This thread was inspired by a new thread where the author had not actually been shot down in flames, but clearly expected to be shot down in flames.

Circumvent:** ** Yes, it is what the forum is for.  If you have never experienced a "snotty" answer, that's good for you and it's a good thing, full stop (that's English for "full stop").   The fact is that people enter new threads here and plainly expect to be shredded.

Quote - There are FAQ's here, fourth line under the forum title... and they're looking for volunteers to help update them.

If you click the forum banner it takes you to the "backroom". The Backroom used to be full of relevant information including the Poser FAQ. The FAQ link is broken now takes you to a "not found" page. The FAQ is also not listed under the forum title. Hopefully, the Mods here will take some time and get the Backroom back in shape one of these days. and put the link to the Backroom back under the Forum Banner where it belongs.

Works for me, too.

7/22/07

I had thought to skip this thread, but it keeps coming back to the top of the messages.

I have from time to time received irked replies in this forum to questions or statements not intended to annoy. But as one who has stood on the other side of the Great Wall of Silent Stone, getting flamed, lectured, or scolded is much better than being ignored. Many forums either do not generate enough traffic for anyone to notice a question, or newcomers are simply neglected. Getting answers, regardless of the tone of some posts, is the best of all possible outcomes of a thread. Most posts here will get a response, and if there is unfair bullying, some one will step in to defend the poster, maybe even the poster her/himself.

I know of no other Poser forum that generates the traffic of this board, or the density of useful answers. Almost all of the content providers, most knowledgeable Poser gurus, and even the folks from E-Frontier and Content Paradise stop in here. Renderosity doesn’t even charge admission. Oh, and if you are trying to be clever in what you post, or you write in long and twisted sentences, put in a smiley or two, I am told they help, (You had better smile when you say that, stranger!).

On another subject mentioned in this thread, the FAQ is linked at the top of this page and the link works for me.

'Baselius' is Greek for king. Seeing that many of Alexander the Great's generals became kings of his divided empire after his death, I can see why his generals might have taken that title.

LMK

Quote - I can't tell you how many emails or PMs I get from people who are afraid to post their questions here so they ask me privately.

I get the PM's from the same.  But I use Google to find the links on here instead of Rendo's own search engine.

Damn, I thought I removed all the old backroom links.  Gone now.

Quote - I'm confuzzed...
I was looking at this, on my side:

 
Oops, my bad, I totally missed that. Must have had the wrong glasses on...lol! I do think it should be a bit more prominent though. It's pretty easy to miss. It would be nice to get the backroom going again too, there was a lot of good stuff for newbies in once.