I need help ! I was about to get Poser 7 ( i am using 4 at mo ) when i got a copy of DAZ Studio on a magazine. It seems to be a good bit of software and allows me to use post-Poser 4 figures like Miki. I find some of the menus take a bit of getting used to and much prefer the Poser menu for selecting figures , pose .

I need that extra push -tell me what i will get with poser 7 that i'm not getting with DAZ Studio . I'm not an animator BTW so im not worried about animated features.

Thanks in anticipation

Hmmm. DAZ Studio is still an ongoing project, and each new version brings more features.
Current version 1.8 can do many of the things Poser 7 can do, but a few things I still need
Poser 7 for. First, the Face Room. DS has no version of this, and it is no loss to me as I don't
use E-F figures. DS has good shaders, and you can buy excellent shader packages, but DS
doesn't currently have anything like Poser 7 Material Room. There is a third party JAVA program
called Eilir that provides something similar to the Poser MAT Room for DS. It is in the DAZ
Studio Freeposiory Forum on the DAZ site. No Setup Room or joint editing yet, so if you are
of a mind to create new figures or clothes, you will need Poser for that. Dynamic Hair and
cloth have not yet been implimented, but I don't use dynamic hair, and find dynamic cloth to
be a PITA most of the time. Recommendation? If you don't need to create clothing or new
figures, DS will do. It's more stable than Poser and it's render engine is better and faster
than Poser 7's firefly renderer, which crashes, on average, about 2 to 3 times per session,
for me anyway. Maybe Poser just hates me. :)

Greywolf

Dynamic Cloth
Face Room
Material Room
Dynamic Hair.
Set up room so you can work with your Poser models rather than just view them.
Various render options.

DAZ Studio is a great program to view Poser files and has a good render engine but you get what you pay for. If all you want to do is pose (but not adjust) Poser models and have no interest in the realism of dynamic cloth or hair then stay with the freebie. However if you want to develop your 3D to the next level then I would recommend Poser 7 as a very cost effective way of moving forward.

I agree with Greywolf, most of the features that Poser has that D|S does not involve rigging and other things to help in the creation of posable figures. I've never really seen dynamic cloth look that great except for flowing dresses, and I've never seen Poser dynamic hair look...well, good at all.  ;)  Poser's Face Room really isn't a must-have feature either. Poser is definitely superior when it comes to animation and I believe it's currently better for attempts at photorealistic lighting (you can get extra light sets for D|S to do this, but Poser users seem to get better results). If you do stick with Studio, consider getting pwSurface (which adds important features to DAZ Studio's materials) and Mask Creator (which makes masks of individual items in your scene, making postwork much easier), both at DAZ.

In short, I'd use Studio for now and if you find yourself wanting more, try the latest Poser demo and see if you like it's added features.

Thanks,

SnowS

Something else to consider.. once you start buying plugins for DS, that free prcetag vaporizes pretty fast.

Also utilities like Shader Spider, Particles, Philc's poser toolbox and wardrobe wizard2 poser plugin can't be used if you have DS, and the plugin version appears to have features that Ds does not.

Take a look at some of the amazing shaders that baggins bill has created in the poser material room, and you'll be amazed.

While some people will tell you DS's renderer is better, others will tell you poser's is. I think that's a subjective thing, and ask people who use dynamics if they would live without it, and you'll hear a resounding NO!

Maybe a year from now I'd consider replacing poser with DS, but not now. And for what it's worth, I've never had poser 7 crash on me yet, and I've never really had any issues with it at all.

Some people just HATE poser, and would replace it with anything given the chance.

Another possibility is the new carrera available from Daz. Again, it's missing come critical poser 7 features, however it does add additional features of it's own to the mix.

Something else to consider.. most products work 100% in poser.. and less so in DS or carrerra or the like. Also, dazupdates DS sometime it seems on a weekly basis.. while that might initially sound great, there are issues in some builds, with features that are broken, and then restored in a later build. It's been liek that for over 2 years now, so I don;t see that changing anytime soon.

Personally? I couldn't live without P7.

I can only agree, without Poser 7 my Posettes would have no more clothes, no dynamic hair and hairbrows, no improved skin with the material room, no smooth polygons, no morphing tool...
I use almost only dynamic clothes and with some other things like the crossdresser and blender my little beloved can live happily for a long time... DS has a different strategy, it has no initial cost but if you want to do something you've to pay for the addons... I really don't like that... I had P7 for what I thought was a good price and I'm happy with it...

Both can be used in different fashions. The only reason I don't use Poser unless I have to,
is the intability. I know not all people have this problem, but P7 is the only 3d program I have
that crashes so inconsistantly. I can't pinpoint any reason because there doesn't seem to be
any common denominator. Until E-F corrects that, I use Poser only for what I can't do in DS.
Since I don't use dynamics, Poser is for character creation or adjustments only. Pity. I've used
Poser since 1998, and that is MUCH longer than most people here. With a few exceptions, of
course! :)

Greywolf

(Big fat disclosure that I'll spit up before I say another word - I used to work for DAZ, and on DAZ|Studio). D|S and Poser each have their strengths and weaknesses. Poser's strength is its longevity, and the fact that it does have some nice tools built-in (AOL/IBL lighting, Joint and Material editing, etc). It can also pretty much read any Poser-formatted file out there without conversion. Poser's weaknesses? Dynamic Hair/Clothing is nice, but will eat a lot of extra CPU cycles and takes a lot of work to get working and looking right. This is not to say that they're useless, but be sure to budget the extra time. It takes longer to load, longer to render, and is a bit heavier on system resources. A lot of this can be mitigated however by having lots of external runtimes (while keeping the built-in one as small as possible), and throttling back some of the render and other settings. D|S Strengths? I'll have to list 'em: * It costs very little. Sure, if you want more than just basic functionality, you need to purchase plug-ins, but this allows you to get only what you want/need from it, instead of having to buy an entire suite loaded with things that you mostly won't use. Many former plugins (e.g. D-Form, which is an advanced magnet/morph-maker) are now free. * It goes easier on the computer's resources. I can happily run the latest version of DAZ|Studio with very little slow-down at all on an old Dell Inspiron Pentium III 866 MHz laptop with only 512 MB of RAM. This includes building scenes with, say, Vicky 4 in it. Only Poser 4 could keep up speed-wise on such puny computer specifications. * It has a better codebase. With its modular foundation, it can be built upon and remain flexible for a long time to come. It was written from the ground up to be compatible with Windows and OSX (and even Linux should they decide to port it), becuase it uses straight-up C++ and Qt, both of which are universal across platform types. This means that it behaves more consistently whether you're on a Mac or in Windows. Because of the discipline that the coding team put into place, it is almost completely free of the cruft and kludges that come back to haunt most programmers as time goes by. (while this paragraph is of little use to users, it does translate to better performance and more stability over time). D|S does have a few weaknesses, however: It lacks some of the tools that Poser comes with (most notably dynamics), though this is changing. It also has to translate files written for Poser. While it does so very well, there are likely to be a few Poser files that will give it trouble from time to time (e.g. *.obz, *.pzz, and the like). I use Poser for compatibility testing, and little else nowadays. Even though my Mac can run either without slowing down much, D|S has a much better response for me, and I already know it inside and out (I know Poser almost as well, but chalk it up to my biases :) ). Cheers! /P

Curious to know why the ability to adjust joint parameters has never been made available even after this length of time. DS must be able to read them since it can manipulate the models. Was it because it was felt that it would be too difficult for users to comprehend?

Not really sure, myself... I was thinking because (earlier on in development) they thought they would simply convert it all to weightmapped skeleton rigs anyway. It wouldn't take too awful much to rig up some sort of interface to manipulate the parameters, but in all honesty, how many users (as a percentage) would even use it? Something to play with idea-wise, though... /P

Dynamic cloth is THE ONLY way to have natural looking cloth. Anything "conforming" looks like comic-garment for "Poser-puppies". Ballons on the shoulderparts, distortions everywhere, the need for additional morphs and magnets most time, bad results with critical poses, whetever more.

If a mesh is made to be used as dynamic cloth it isn't hard to use. Don't compare good dynamic cloth with meshes designed to be used as conformer and just converted to work with the clothroom.

I create my own Poser stuff as well as modify existing meshes from the ground up.

For me D|S is just a device to hook new Poser "consumers" to DAZ stuff.
Practically everything that allows you to create and express yourself as an individual Poser artist is locked away from you because DAZ thinks there is no money in it.

What made Poser great is it's accessibility.
All you need is a text editor and you can go exploring.
From a programmers point of view D|S might be more "elegant", but practically everybody can read and understand a cr2 because it's a simple text file as opposed to some esoteric "ds" file.

That's how all the great Poser innovations were made we enjoy now : Lots of "normal" people tinkering around with Poser stuff just to see what happens.

With D|S, innovation is reserved to a handfull of DAZ programmers whose goal it is of course to maximize DAZ revenue, not to maximize the individuals artists ability to express himself.

I'm completely opposed against the idea that stands behind D|S as well as Victoria 4.1:
To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

But we're now here where we are because Poser has given 3D to the masses.
Because it at least in the beginning was a true grassroots DIY movement.
And D|S and V4.1 which are both created with the consumer in mind instead of the creative artist are diametrical opposed to that "3D for EVERYBODY" ideology.

With D|S you have no other option than to BUY stuff because you simply can't do the things you can do for yourself in Poser.
With V4.1 you also have no option as to BUY stuff because she's become so complicated that you need high-end tools to really "make her your own".

V4.1 is "de facto" closed source now, that's why we will see a lot less really new stuff in the future as opposed fto  what people were able to do with V3 or the other Unimeshes.

Let's see what the future brings:
Crippled "Pose" programs like D|S and meshes like V4.1 that hardly can walk under their own weight because they were designed especially for those crippled programs and treat you like a child by adding tons of training wheels to make them "easy to work with for everybody including your four year old niece".
Or programs that respect you by giving you all the options for a very fair price and the ability to create meshes that actually look and bend like a human being using the latest Poser tech yet keeping their easy acessibility for everyone by not pandering to the lowest common denominator.

There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

Just yesterday I made a new expression morph for V2LO with the Poser 7 morphbrush because none of the premade morphs could give me the result I needed.
It took just a few minutes and it was so heartbreakingly EASY after all those years fiddling around with magnets or exporting to a modeller only to work with a static object.

I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin or a "Deformer" plugin and still won't get close to the results I so easily could get directly inside Poser.

If you ever create your very first OWN item, be it a pose, a morph, a new prop or even a completely new figure, something NOONE else has because YOU did it, there's no way going back.

Quote -

If you ever create your very first OWN item, be it a pose, a morph, a new prop or even a completely new figure, something NOONE else has because YOU did it, there's no way going back.

Bravo, well said.  I am a classic artist, so the whole make button art thing bothers me, he lack of true creation tools at this juncture feels like an agenda.  Why think a solution to a poser issue, or make your own thing?  Buy something new at out 99 cent sale....

In most traditional circles poser art is treated with disdain for its "pose dolls" theory, they dont see the hard work going into it.  DS seems to make it even moreso int hat direction.  

mind you its great for tyhose wanting to play or use it for game characters and I have seen some lovely stuff.. (and I really, really hate posers waste of spce GUI)  but you really have to support the freedom to create and modify, at least I do because I don't want a modeller telling me what is possible in my own imagination.

just my thoughts, 

Quote - What made Poser great is it's accessibility.
All you need is a text editor and you can go exploring.
From a programmers point of view D|S might be more "elegant", but practically everybody can read and understand a cr2 because it's a simple text file as opposed to some esoteric "ds" file.

Fair enough - to a point. OTOH, some things you may not have known offhand: * the scripting SDK is free for D|S, and goes in-depth as to not only how to create your own plugins w/ script, but explains the inner workings of each file type, and the inner workings of the program itself. This alone mitigates the accessibility problem that you mentioned. * *.ds files are plain-text scripts. You're thinking fo the .daz scene file, methinks. * for ~$100.00, anyone can get the full programming SDK if desired, which pretty much gives anyone who can do programming full internal access to D|S. With Poser, you either cough up a massive five-to-six-figure check, or get told to go learn Python. * With the Poser Format Exporter plugin, I can export a scene to .cr2 (or any other Poser-style text file), hack it, then re-load it to taste. The plugin is free for download. * Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc). This all means that the following is statement certainly not true: "With D|S, innovation is reserved to a handfull of DAZ programmers whose goal it is of course to maximize DAZ revenue, not to maximize the individuals artists ability to express himself." Again, that's not true. I can even go one step further - D|S offers encryption for files and scripts that you build, which lets you (as an option) protect your assets from being ripped-off. The reason for the different file formats isn't to lock-in anything - they're there for increase efficiency and organization within the file. > Quote - To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

Eh? Both companies exist to maximize profit... even Poser's (whomever owns it this year, anyway). > Quote - With D|S you have no other option than to BUY stuff because you simply can't do the things you can do for yourself in Poser.

...as opposed to buying Poser for a far higher price, then buying Python-based scripts for things you cannot otherwise do in it (e.g. Wardrobe Wizard)? > Quote - With V4.1 you also have no option as to BUY stuff because she's become so complicated that you need high-end tools to really "make her your own".

Example, please. Just one. > Quote - There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

Nah - D|S can still import nearly all of Poser's stuff, and with a little work and $100, Poser's coding team can make code that will import D|S native files. Question is, will Poser do so? > Quote - Just yesterday I made a new expression morph for V2LO with the Poser 7 morphbrush because none of the premade morphs could give me the result I needed.

It took just a few minutes and it was so heartbreakingly EASY after all those years fiddling around with magnets or exporting to a modeller only to work with a static object.

To duplicate the same action in D|S, I merely use the (free) D-Form plugin (which is flexible enough to do so with a little more work), then export the morph with the Morph Exporter plugin. Poser built the Morph Brush because D-Form existed. It's a minor arms race of sorts - first there was Poser Magnets. Then D-Form. Now Morph Brush. I suspect there will be an equivalent soon for D|S... and so it goes. If it wasn't for the competition, Morph Brush would never have existed. > Quote - I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin or a "Deformer" plugin and still won't get close to the results I so easily could get directly inside Poser.

Let's see the results... A long time ago, someone tried to make a certain reflection map pattern in GIMP that was made in Photoshop, but failed and proclaimed that GIMP was inferior and useless because of it. I duplicated the pattern and colors exactly in about 45 mintues... with GIMP. It took that long becuase I wanted to get as close as humanly possible and cast off many candidates, until I got it just right. Thing is, being used to one set of tools does not automatically mean that any other tool is inferior to the one you use. It is simply a matter of grokking how the new tool works. For instance, If I've been used to using a jigsaw and a drill to cut wood and drywall, then of course I'm going to look at a rotary cutter and think "hah! that's only one (unfamiliar-looking) tool, and it's inferior" - until I see it being used by someone who took the time to learn how to use the thing... and realize that he can get the job done in half the time, with better results, and greater flexibility. Same story here, really... lots of folks who spent a LOT of time learning how Poser works, and suddenly here comes this unfamiliar thing that can do a lot, with a lot less time and effort, and with incredible results if the artist took the time to get in deep with figuring it out. It makes one defensive, and start pointing to esoteric bits and bobs to extrapoalte them into larger claims. We have a similar phenomenon in the computer world - we call it fanboyism. After all, we as individuals have an urge to justify the time and money spent on something. Perfect example: A Windows-certified MCSE spent a whole lot of time and money learning his trade, and doesn't want to have to cast it all aside and start over when the server room starts switching over to Linux. So, he has two choices - either learn the new way early enough to keep his skill (and monetary) value high, or get angry and start bad-mouthing the new thing, pushing it out wherever and whenever he can... even if it makes no sense to do so. Me, I find at least some use in both, and previous work w/ DAZ aside, present my arguments for and against each. Poser is established. It has more features... for now. But it has a higher price and eats system resources like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat buffet. D|S is cheaper, lighter, faster, more internally sound... but it lacks a few features still, and some may not like the a-la-carte plugin pricing. You picks your favorite and sticks with it, or you can embrace both (with D|S, it's increadibly easy to get and use both if you already have Poser... D|S' base app is free). /P

"Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc)."

These are simply the ASCII files compressed using GZip.

It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

I couldn't care less about EF or SM or whoever currently owns Poser.
If someone brings out a program tomorrow that could do everything Poser can but a lot better, I would switch in a heartbeat.
But I'm only willing to switch if the new program would give me more options, not less.
And create more realistic looking characters, not "Aiko realistic" wannabees.

The beauty of Poser is that YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A PROGRAMMER to open and hack a cr2 file. All you need to do is know how to read.

And yes, Poser uses python to execute scripts. Have you checked lately how many FREE python scripts for Poser are out there ?

So that DAZ gives away the D|S SDK for free while you have to pay for Poser's is completely irrelevant, because "normal people", i.e those without a programming background wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.
BTW, ".obz, .pzz, .crz, etc" are just zipped obj, pz2 and cr2 files. Just disable file compression and they're gone.

And comparing the P7 Morphbrush with D|S "D-Formers" ?
Well, I guess then you better DO stick with D|S if you can't recognize the difference and what breakthrough the morphbrush is for Poser users who want more realism.

Yes, maybe one day D|S will be able to read morphs BEFORE it reads joint parameters so they can provide the same functionality as the morphbrush, but then they'll still be stuck with magnet infested V4.1 and their derivates.

Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3, but here are two very obvious ones:
There were a lot of V3 hybrids out there: V3's head on Posette's body, V3's head on V2's body, V3's head on Judy's body.
Why ? Because all those figure's heads, mouths and tounges were a single part so that they are easy to swap among them.
No extra rigging or complicated cr2 editing involved.

Now with V4.1, you get a head, upper teeth, lower teeth, and SEVEN tounge parts, all individually rigged.
Try to put V4.1s head on another body and you suddenly find yourself confronted with a a lot of extra rigging and cr2 editing necessary without any measurable benefit over more "simple" figures like V3.

Another example:
A lot of people made free textures for V3. A V3 texture is fairly easy to make in Photoshop because all major body parts are scaled similar so it's easy to paint over seams.
Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

I predict there will be A LOT less (If any) V4.1 hybrids out there, and a lot less free V4.1 textures.

And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3.

Nope, DAZ started a race for the bottom line, because that's where they think the money is.

The Poserverse is so big not because of DAZ or Renderosity or any other marketplace.
It's big because Poser made it possible for each and everyone to participate because it gives you all tools necessary to truly CREATE.

And only a program that gives you all options and doesn't lock the "non-professionals" out will keep it that way.

BTW, it's not V4.1, it's V4RR, a reduced resolution version of V4 I created myself and then used a FREE Poser python script (All praise Cage and Spanki !) to transfer the expression morphs over from V4.1 to V4RR.

I gave up on the project because even though I usually know how to hack a cr2, I couldn't find a way to edit the plethora of joint smoothing magnets to create a matching body.

Aw, and here I was thinking that we'd all nicely suggest that Jetstream try both programs and choose whichever one he prefers? Guess it's time to be really honest then...

    "they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser."

Give me a break, at least it doesn't have a ludicrous interface, a trial-and-error light positioning system, limited cameras, and a material room so overly complex that only a fraction of it's users know even half of what it can do. Not to mention it's a resource hog and it took years to finally implement multiple undos.

    "Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3"

Oh? V4's expression morphs are vastly superior to V3's, she is no longer built like a linebacker, and (argueably) she bends and poses better.

    "And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3."

This is completely dependent on the user, not the program. The bottom line is what any particular user is able to do with the program they choose. I used Poser since the first version, and I am better with DAZ Studio than I ever was with Poser. Stick to the facts; yes Poser has rigging tools and other features that DAZ Studio does not, but saying DAZ Studio is 'crippled' or cannot produce art as well as Poser can is simply not true.

SnowS

Quote - "Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc)."

These are simply the ASCII files compressed using GZip.

True, though not all of them work as easily. Similar IMHO to the whole .rsr thing... take a common format and modify the headers (e.g..rsr files are just PICT files with changed headers). -- > Quote - It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

I'm not going into any arguments as to one side vs. the other, because both sides have the same problem. > Quote - The beauty of Poser is that YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A PROGRAMMER to open and hack a cr2 file. All you need to do is know how to read.

Err, I don't in either program - export the .cr2 file in either program, open and mess around with it, then load it back in either program. What part of this do you not grok? As for being simple? Err, no. Not unless you instinctively know what deltas are, how joint parameters work, how to calculate Quaternian Rotation... things like that. In a (typically) tens of MB large ASCII file that requires something other than notepad to operate in w/o errors. At best, about 0.01% of Poser and D|S combined userbase would want to dig into the mess and fogure it down. In both cases, they can, but it's not pretty, nor is it the artists' panacea that you're proclaiming it as. > Quote - And yes, Poser uses python to execute scripts. Have you checked lately how many FREE python scripts for Poser are out there ?

Sure - for something that's been around since the mid-1990s, one would expect this. Interestingly enough, both programs have that in common - a lot of free scripts to do useful stuff. > Quote - So that DAZ gives away the D|S SDK for free while you have to pay for Poser's is completely irrelevant, because "normal people", i.e those without a programming background wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.

Indeed - it's the same with being able to hack a .cr2 file... those who don't know what a normal or delta is, or how UV maps or materials work... meh. It's a wash. Now for those who really want to make it go? Look at it this way - imagine how much faster, say, Wardrobe Wizard would run if it were ported for either program as a native-speed plugin, and not just a script? > Quote - Well, I guess then you better DO stick with D|S if you can't recognize the difference and what breakthrough the morphbrush is for Poser users who want more realism.

Now you're just descending into fanboyism, because that's not what I wrote at all. I said that one can emulate the other, and that there is an 'arms race' of sorts concerning that feature. "and so it goes"... > Quote - Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3, but here are two very obvious ones:

Okay, let's see: > Quote - There were a lot of V3 hybrids out there: V3's head on Posette's body, V3's head on V2's body, V3's head on Judy's body.

No new news here. Go look at Nanana for V4: http://ken1171.deviantart.com/art/Nanana-Pinup-55868377?offset=30 http://blog.zgock-lab.net/poser/nanana-kai/ (scroll down a bit) You get a custom-built body part lashed onto another body altogether. The only complaint I see you having is that there's more parts involved. That lends towards flexibility as well as complexity, so it's a wash overall. If you want to continue using V3's head on something else, no one is stopping you from doing so. Also, I thought your complaint was (earlier) that things are too 'dumbed-down'? Now you complain about complexity? I don't get it... > Quote - A lot of people made free textures for V3. A V3 texture is fairly easy to make in Photoshop because all major body parts are scaled similar so it's easy to paint over seams. Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

Err, again... you're complaining about complexity? Okay, forget I said that. IMHO, all it would take is to figure down the scaling diffs (not hard to do at all, and I can use GIMP's measuring tool and a calculator for that), publish them, and you're all set. Build once and run many. Ever seen a professional high-end texmap? You'd cringe in utter horror at the wild variety of scaling and layouts on just one figure. One of the project leads @ work just got done paying $4k for a fully textured head... a head. The head skin, the eyes, the irises, the tongue, the teeth... all had wildly different scaling (but the rendered results? Hooly sh!t it was good...) I can gratefully defer to SnowSultan for the rest of it :) Bottom line - any new user should try both programs (Poser still has a demo mode, yes?) and choose which one he or she prefers. /P

Yes, I DO complain about complexity.

And the reason for all that complexity is that DAZ tries to dumb Poserverse down to make more $$$.
No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.
No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets.

It's all so utterly "convenient".

It's like fitting every car with an automatic transmission because SOME people can't be bothered to learn how to shift.
Or turning every ISP into AOL because SOME people are scared of the WWW.

The result of all this "dumbing down" and giving you a "better Poser expierience"?
A mesh that is way more complicated internally and much more prone to breakage.
V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action, but people only see the new shoulders and the sexy default bodyshape.

And no, more parts does not mean more flexibility.
Seperate buttocks, good. Seperate waist, good also.
Double jointed shoulders ? Not really usefull any more.
Seperate teeth and fully articulated tounge ?
Absolutely not worth the hassle.

BTW, NaNaNa is a custom head or a morphed A3 head on a V4 body, so there is no need to re-rig anything.
But try putting V4.1's head on A3's body and keep all her erc controlled head morphs as well as the teeth and tounge rigging, that's when the "fun" starts.

I couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses, but the Poserverse DOES spin around DAZ and the latest V-Chick.
So if DAZ makes it too hard to create free textures for V4.1, then there will be a lot less free textures, period.
And if all the newbies get suckered into joining the D|S bandwagen, a lot of hidden talents will never have a chance to develop.

You seem to share DAZ cynical stance that just because only a few people actually use the options that Poser gives them, they should be taken away from everybody.
But people can stick to using nothing but premade content  just fine in Poser.
But IF one bright day they wake up and say to themselves:
"Hmm, all those face morphs really start to look the same to me. Let's see what this morphbrush thingy can do..."
Then they have all the tools readily at hand to become creative themselves.

In D|S, as it is now, this simply won't happen.
You either make do with what DAZ thinks is good for you, or constantly plead in the forums for some of the "professionals" to do it for you.

A cage is a cage, even if it comes with golden bars or a fancy "modern" GUI.

And for my creativity, D|S IS a cage, because it doesn't allow me to do the things I want.

Quote - No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.

At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it. Man... you need to lose your hate. /P

Maybe I'm old fashioned but the way I see it, if you don't like something, you don't buy and/or use it.  Simple, really. :biggrin:

"At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it."

Yes, I completely agree. We should better stop before things get too embarrassing for one of us. ;-)

I think JoePublic eloquently expresses a point of view, passionately expresses that point of view. Hatefully expresses that point of view? Not so much.

When we were putting together Wardrobe Wizard we were faced with what to do about adjusting joint parameters. I knew there was no one size fits all. I knew it would be an issue that may "scare" off potential customers, however my gut feeling was that Poser folks are not babies. Much of the joy of working in 3D is that it is not easy so the sense of accomplishment when learning a new skill is all the more sweet. I put out tutorials, videos. I answer email questions and forum posts. Provided people are clearly taught it is clear to me that they enjoy to learn. Judging by the sales figures I feel I was right. I get emails like, "Thanks for explaining it to me, was not that difficult after all."

I get similar questions from DAZ Studio folks. Unfortunately all I can say to them is either wait until you can purchase that plugin for your free Poser file viewer or buy Poser.

To answer the original question of which application jetstream should go with, best to decide what you want the application to be used for. If you just want to view and pose your Poser files and enjoy a good render engine then stick with your freebie. If on the other hand you want to take your 3D creativity into avenues that DAZ Studio does not cater for then consider purchasing Poser.

I hope both programs continue to develop and progress for years to come, and both enjoy a sizeable userbase that will keep the companies that own them making a tidy profit.

Why?  Simple - competition is a good thing, a very good thing, for both programs.  Daz Studio does not yet have some of the features that poser does, but then again daz studio is a pretty young program in comparision.

Poser has more features overall, but in some instances the user interface can be clunky and some of the features (most notably the "face room") are so poorly implemented that they are nearly useless.   

As Daz Studio improves Poser must also improve to stay current and competitive, and vice versa.  Each time a new feature or a better interface is developed the opposing side must take notice, and do what they can to improve their own program to prevent it from becoming obsolete.

As to which is "better" at this point in time, it depends entirely on your application and experience.  For me, I've been working with Poser for a while now so I'm pretty familiar with it and as such it's fairly easy for me to do about 90% of what I want in poser relatively quickly.

If DS improves to the point where they have all the features that I want I might consider giving them a look - but for now it really isn't in the cards for me.  However your application and experience are probably much different than my own, so DS might be a better option for you personally.

Case in point, I have access to a full version of 3ds max, however I don't really use it all that often. Why?  Because I don't do much modelling and usually when I am working with a mesh it's normally only to make minor corrections.  As such I generally use a freebie program called wings 3d far more often than I do 3ds max.

Now 3ds max has features that Wings 3d couldn't even begin to duplicate, and it's a far more powerful program.  Comparing the two is like comparing a cap pistol to a nuclear weapon, they are just on two totally different scales as far as power and flexibility are concerned.

However for the most part all I need for most of what I do with meshes is a "cap pistol".  A simple edit here or there is generally all that I require, and as such Wings 3d does the job quite well.  I can accomplish things quickly because less features also mean a lot less menu options to be sifting through to find the one I need.

If I were modeling something complex, like a car or an airplane, I'd probably haul out 3ds max and use it instead - it has features that make such modelling far easier.  However for a quick edit here or there Wings 3d is more practical for my purposes.  

You might find such is the case as well with yourself and Daz Studio.  If what your doing is mostly rendering and you don't really need most of the features Poser has that DS does not, then DS might be a good option for you.  But really this is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  It will depend on your needs, your experience and your workflow.  

Just my 2 cents worth.

I think the "combatants" frightened away the original post starter IMHO anyone who immediately mentions editing joint parameters in one of these discussions is in the slight minority of poser users i consider "advanced". let alone "hacking a CR2" I still firmly believe more than 51 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses. so to be frank D/S is the Ideal free solution for the majority especially someone who has only now exjted the crumbling cave of P4!! (Disclosure) I use Maxon Cinema4D +interposer pro linked to 2 poser runtimes and Vue will like NEVER buy another version of poser beyond P6 and D/S is just a free toy for me to fiddle with occasionally.

Quote - ...I still firmly believe more than 50 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses...

Yup.

Quote -
There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

pppttthhhttthhhttt!
Yeah, there's something to lay awake at night worrying about. (Sadly there are probably those here who do...)
Seriously, thanks for the laugh, that's definitely the funniest thing I read or heard today.

Quote - > Quote - No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.

At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it. Man... you need to lose your hate. /P

Hey Pengy, be careful man, you're kinda sounding like one of those D|S people shudder
I've always respected your insight and opinions greatly from Poser to Politics and everything in between, but don't make me choose... you're walking the edge of that rift, man.
I'm just trying to help. Don't find yourself on the Wrong Side.
;)

and of course those "Pose" dials negate you from being able to do it manually? :rolleyes: and you can pose the whole figure using them? sorry this seems like a huge rationalization for not liking a figure. just like your assumtion that just becouse their are unified expression morphs people can't use the components of those expressions individually. take a look, not only does this not limit expressions, there are actually more choices for fine tuning expressions than in V3. Yes DAZ offers ease of use dials, but they aren't forcing you to use them, nor are they huge space hogs becouse all they are are erc code which adds very little to the size of the cr2. and No offense but you calling DAZ Studio users fanboys is like the Pot calling the Kettle black.

Quote -
Yes, I DO complain about complexity.

And the reason for all that complexity is that DAZ tries to dumb Poserverse down to make more $$$.
No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.
No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets.

It's all so utterly "convenient".

It's like fitting every car with an automatic transmission because SOME people can't be bothered to learn how to shift.
Or turning every ISP into AOL because SOME people are scared of the WWW.

The result of all this "dumbing down" and giving you a "better Poser expierience"?
A mesh that is way more complicated internally and much more prone to breakage.
V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action, but people only see the new shoulders and the sexy default bodyshape.

Oh that's hilarious too.
This is like some kind of twilight Zone thread here. DAZ is bad because they limit creativity...
You really ought to see some of the very interesting Poser discussions that go on at CG Talk. ;)

Man I really regret avoiding this forum for so long, it's so much fun!

See MikeJ's post above for the quote I would have put here but didn't want to waste the bandwidth.

Yeah, that amused me when I read that the first time as well.... as visions of numerous threads at other websites and the flow on effects those threads create here spring to mind.

Tormentor wrote;
*"DS has a different strategy, it has no initial cost but if you want to do something you've to pay for the addons... I really don't like that..."
*So you'd rather pay for things you don't need or want? Not me.

JoePublic wrote;
"I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin"
You don't need to buy an Expression plugin.

"or a "Deformer" plugin "
You don't need to buy a Deformer plugin, it's built into DAZ Studio. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :)

*"There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure"
*Only because of people with attitudes like yours.

*"The Poserverse is so big not because of DAZ or Renderosity or any other marketplace."
*You're absolutely wrong there.

*"No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
*So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did.

*"No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials."
*So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?

*"No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets."
*So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?

C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous.

"Seperate teeth and fully articulated tounge ?"
Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky.

*"I couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses"
*Really? You sure fooled me by your posts.

*"So if DAZ makes it too hard to create free textures for V4.1, then there will be a lot less free textures, period."
*It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress.

"*But IF one bright day they wake up and say to themselves:
"Hmm, all those face morphs really start to look the same to me. Let's see what this morphbrush thingy can do..."
*Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio.

*"V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action"
*Actually, I'd say your posts were.......

*"V4 body actor with integrated pose dials"
*Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who lives under the stairs!

Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys.......

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I've always respected your insight and opinions greatly from Poser to Politics and everything in between, but don't make me choose... you're walking the edge of that rift, man.

I'm just trying to help. Don't find yourself on the Wrong Side.
;)

Are you guys being serious??? "Poserverse"................"wrongside"??? This thread is hilarious!!!

"You don't need to buy an Expression plugin."
I'm pretty sure there are D|S users out there who even find V4.1's expression dials too inconvenient too use.
Ok, maybe a few Poser users, too.

"You don't need to buy a Deformer plugin, it's built into DAZ Studio. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :)"
So DAZ turned D-Forms into a freebie then ?
I hope they gave those folks who bought it when it was first issued their money back, then.*

*"Only because of people with attitudes like yours."
What attitude ? Oh you mean the "I don't believe every salesman's pitch" attitude.

*"You're absolutely wrong there."
Actually I'm not. Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces.

*"So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did."
Scale dials ? What scale dials ? Oh, you mean  V4.1's invisible "We had to lock them away for your own good" scaledials.

*"So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
They do. But just because a lot of OTHER people do it, doesn't make it right, does it ?

*"So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
See above.

"C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous."
Only to those who prefer convenience over creative freedom.

"Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one.

*"Really? You sure fooled me by your posts."
You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...

*"It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress."
No, that's not progress. That's just "Let's create a completely uncompatible new mapping so that we can sell lots of new textures and then convince people that they actually would need it"

*"Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio."
Please pay attention to what I write when you quote me. The Morphbrush and D-Forms aren't even in the same league.

*"Actually, I'd say your posts were......."
If you tried to be witty, better luck next time.

*"Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who live under the stairs!"
I hope they don't, although a lot of Poser and D|S users already feel entitled to have everything served to them on a silver plate.
It's nice to have training wheels, but one usually discards them if they aren't needed anymore.

"Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys......."
Hmmm. let's see here, adds Coldrake to list of official D|S fanboys......."

JoePublic  :-)

Quote -
Are you guys being serious???

"Poserverse"................"wrongside"???

This thread is hilarious!!!

Of course I wasn't being serious! 

Quote -
Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces.

Yes, it is, but Poser wouldn't have maintained its momentum without the marketplaces, I don't think.
In the beginning, there were loads of freebies, some of which are still here, but might have dead links. People like PhilC and nerd and Traveler and others were making all kinds of free stuff and also making all kinds of discoveries and sharing all that, but the popularity of it and the fact that your average Poser user at the time didn't have access to good modeling programs, never mind the knowledge to use one, led to a strong need for more stuff.
And more, and more, and more and more and more...

Eventually, Poser's success itself created the various marketplaces, because capitalism doesn't "help" things along, it feeds off of a need. In this case that need was more and more stuff to plop into Poser.
It's symbiotic now. Poser and the Poser marketplaces exist because each of the other does.

""Only because of people with attitudes like yours."
*What attitude ? Oh you mean the "I don't believe every salesman's pitch" attitude."

No, I mean this kind of attitude.
***"For me D|S is just a device to hook new Poser "consumers" to DAZ stuff.

I'm completely opposed against the idea that stands behind D|S as well as Victoria 4.1:
To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

Crippled "Pose" programs like D|S and meshes like V4.1 that hardly can walk under their own weight because they were designed especially for those crippled programs and treat you like a child by adding tons of training wheels to make them "easy to work with for everybody including your four year old niece".***

It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

***A cage is a cage, even if it comes with golden bars or a fancy "modern" GUI.

You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...""*

 ""You're absolutely wrong there."
*Actually I'm not. Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces."

Yes, Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism, but Poser wouldn't have grown to what it is today without the stores, like it or not, content is what drives the "Poserverse".

"So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did."
*Scale dials ? What scale dials ? Oh, you mean  V4.1's invisible "We had to lock them away for your own good" scaledials.

V4.1's scale are dials hardly hidden, in the image you posted showing the "V4 body actor with integrated pose dials" the hand scale dial is right at the top of the image. You're telling me you can't find it? Lol!

"""So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
They do. But just because a lot of OTHER people do it, doesn't make it right, does it ?"

Doesn't make it wrong either. I rarely use premade poses, but obviously a lot of people do.

""So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
See above."

You too.

""C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous."
Only to those who prefer convenience over creative freedom.

So you're saying posing 2 parts with one dial impinges on peoples creative freedom? Lol! You're hilarious!

""Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
*Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one."

I never said I was one of them.

""Really? You sure fooled me by your posts."
*You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...

No, I'm not easily fooled. If you couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses, why are you rambling on about about how bad DAZ Studio and V4 are?

""It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress."
*No, that's not progress. That's just "Let's create a completely uncompatible new mapping so that we can sell lots of new textures and then convince people that they actually would need it""

So you think we should go back to the old way of mapping like the Poser 3 figures with everything on a single map? Yeah, THAT'S a good idea....... Oh, and I didn't realize all the figures that EF sells use the same maps as the figures that come with Poser. I stand corrected. Since you seem to have missed it the first time, I'll repeat it in bold for you.
You can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout.

""Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio."
Please pay attention to what I write when you quote me."

I did.

""Actually, I'd say your posts were......."
If you tried to be witty, better luck next time."

Hey, I was witty, it's not my fault you have no sense of humor.

""Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who live under the stairs!"
I hope they don't, although a lot of Poser and D|S users already feel entitled to have everything served to them on a silver plate.
*It's nice to have training wheels, but one usually discards them if they aren't needed anymore."

So now you're equating moving two parts with one dial to using training wheels? I equate it with better workflow and ease of use.

""Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys......."
Hmmm. let's see here, adds Coldrake to list of official D|S fanboys......."

Nope, I'm not a D|S fanboy, you haven't seen me once disparage Poser in any way, I never even said DAZ Studio was better. I like Poser, it's a great program. Each have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Some things Poser does better, some things DAZ Studio does better.

Coldrake

Quote - "Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one.

With the morphed tongue, you are limited to exactly what the tongue can do by the combination of the stretching of the mesh and twisting of the mesh (and the texture applied). With the joints, you can do things like lift and extend the tongue by moving the origin -before- you start twisting and shaping it....giving you much better control over things. It's the same with articulated feet; most don't bother using it. Those who animate, and want or need a barefoot or sandal-shod character can find those extra few bones worth gold....and more importantly in my book, it gets rid of 'shovel foot', one of the key giveaways that a mesh is classic Poser. The tongue is another one, as most of the articulated ones have so much deformation from the morphs that by the time the tip does more than just touch the lips, there is so much texture distortion it looks like a slug trying to crawl down his/her throat. As mass physics and softbody dynamics are probably several versions away, if ever, they need to do things like bone the breasts, and use the morphs to shift the 'mass' around, not provide actual controlled movement....

Sorry DaleB, but a morphed tounge can do everything an articulated can. At least for the normal range of motions a human can do.
The problem you have is just that the default DAZ tounge morphs aren't very good.
You can easily control V3's tounge origin right in Poser.
Make the tounge a new group, add a magnet, let the magnet zone influence the tongue group only, and you can easily lift, scale, move, do whatever you want with the tounge.
Then save what you need as morphs.

Same with toes. The existing toe morphs are just not good, and 20 additional bodyparts give Poser a LOT more stuff to calculate while rendering.

Yes, you can theoretically "bone" anything and then double- joint every joint on top of that to get smoother transitions but then posing and scaling and morphing and cloth creation becomes very, very hard.

If you need a fully articulated  "super tounge" for a fetish or fantasy render, why not make a conforming tounge figure?
Something you can add to V4 when you need it, but that won't use your system's RAM or get in the way of morphing when you don't need it ?
You think V4.1's tounge is the bees knees ?
Regroup it into 20 or 30 sections, then add easypose controls.
THEN you'd have something special.

But make it an add-on and don't pollute the main cr2 with extra bones and bodyparts.
Keep the main cr2 as simple and rugged as possible.

Same with articulated toes. Easy to make a second set of toes that can be added with Poser's built in geometry switching. Then add the additional joints with a joint pose and you can let Vicky flip-flop along the beach to your hearts content.
But leave the default figure as simple as possible, because most of the time fully articulated toes are just not needed and just drain your system resources.

That would be SMART TECH.

DAZ threw every gadget they could think of at V4 and hoped it would stick.
And then they were surprised that she constantly crashes and burns at the slightest instance.

Quote - I think the "combatants" frightened away the original post starter IMHO anyone who immediately mentions editing joint parameters in one of these discussions is in the slight minority of poser users i consider "advanced". let alone "hacking a CR2" I still firmly believe more than 51 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses. so to be frank D/S is the Ideal free solution for the majority especially someone who has only now exjted the crumbling cave of P4!! (Disclosure) I use Maxon Cinema4D +interposer pro linked to 2 poser runtimes and Vue will like NEVER buy another version of poser beyond P6 and D/S is just a free toy for me to fiddle with occasionally.

I think that all Poser users start out that way, I certainly did.  But eventually you run into a situation where the canned buy load render doesn't quite fit the bill, and for some of us that means starting to branch out a bit and learning a bit more about meshes, textures, etc.. to get the desired effect.

Pretty soon you’re looking at modeling a few things on your own, and before you know it your starting to read up on CR2 files and how they work.  I must admit I've never tried Maxon's Cinema 4D - sadly my budget just can't keep up with all these great 3d rendering programs so I stick with poser for now.

I'll probably look at going to something a bit higher end eventually, but for now Poser does what I need it to do with a minimum of fuss and aggravation. As to the combative nature of some of the responses, whenever you ask a question on an internet forum about which software package is better you must expect at least 50% of the responses to be along these lines, it’s just the nature of the beast.

People have a tendency to get rather entrenched in the software they use. I remember not to long ago some folks got there knickers in a twist when I wrote a review of some image editing software called “The Gimp”. I had some nice things to say about the program and it didn’t sit well with some of the folks that read my article and were long time photoshop users.

Now I’m a long time photoshop user (in fact I’ve been using it for so long my first commercial copy was purchased under it’s original name of photostyler) and I’m certainly not going to be switching over to the Gimp anytime in the near future. Not that the Gimp isn’t a good program, but I’ve got a lot of time invested in photoshop, I know where the menu options are that I need and what the shortcut keys are that I use on a daily basis. But for someone that doesn’t currently own photoshop it’s a viable option, it’s a powerful program with a lot of desirable features at an unbeatable price – free. 

But while I can see the value of a program like the Gimp for others, a lot of people grow rather attached to their particular software and feel the need to defend their choice wholeheartedly. For me a software choice has never been that much of an emotional investment, but for others it often can be strangely enough.

@ JoePublic: Dear Lord, man... It's Monday morning, and you're still going out of your way to bad-mouth a program? Please, stop. It's beginning to embarrass the rest of us. Give it a rest... you've sunk to the point of inventing "problems" now just so you can claim superiority of the proggie you've chosen to stick with. What you're pointing at so excitedly are nitpicks, not deal-breakers. Perfect anagram: Vista bogs down computers that otherwise run faster with OSX on the same equivalent hardware... that's a deal-breaker for some. While Apple has competitively-priced hardware spec-for-spec, it's always higher-end spec... that's a deal-breaker for some. But... the average user doesn't know about or give a damn about the differences between UAC and graphical sudo (Apple's equivalent), and so spending hours upon hours arguing about them to convince some newbie to buy either a Mac or a new Windows box w/ Vista is not only silly... it's pointless fanboyism. Arguing over the overall direction you think (rightly or wrongly) each OS maker wants to take is silly, because unless you're Microsoft or Apple (or worked for either one of them directly), you simply have no clue what their visions are. Arguing over them to the extreme that you have is even dumber. It's real simple: If you don't like a program, then simply do not use it. The poor bastard who started this thread has prolly ran off into the night, screaming in terror that he's going to have to learn all of this or else never be able to use the thing. If you think the V4 file is too big and complex, then don't use it. Build your own figure, use one of Poser's default figures (RDNA supports them, as do a few others)... but really, you're arguing against logic now. I mean, when you write things like this:

Quote - If you need a fully articulated "super tounge" for a fetish or fantasy render, why not make a conforming tounge figure?

WTF? You think everyone should modify their workflow and have extra parts lying around the Runtime directory just so you can claim some sense of uber-l33t h4x0r type of improvisational superiority? EasyPose was a hack (albeit a good hack), and not The Way Forward (tm, pat. pending, etc). (Animating speech in a portrait figure requires some hella flexible tongue control so that it doesn't make the thing look like some cheap extension of Jabba The Hutt's arms... So what if it's a bigger .cr2 file? Deal.) 'k, morning ciggie is done. I'm off to work. Feel free to blow a couple of hours in replying if you wish... I'm done in this mess for awhile. /P

;-)

Penguinisto, this discussion would be so much better if you'd actually know what you're talking about.

I WANTED V4 to be good.
I WANTED to delete all my homemade custom work and instead use the best possible, ultra photorealistic, state of the art latest greatest DAZ mesh instead.

All technical points I brought against V4.1 are perfectly valid.
You think it's ok to sell inferior goods just because the average consumer won't notice anyway ?
How nice.

You think it's futile discussing better solutions in public because not everybody might understand ?

What you call "fanboyism" is the only way to change things in Poserdom. There are no consumer watchdog organisations that could test a product and give an unbiased view here.

Personally I'm perfectly happy with Poser 7 and my modified Unimesh figures. Of course I hope that Poser 8 will bring even better tools and that I'm able to improve my skills even more to create more realistic morphs.

But why should I lean back and just laugh at all those who fall for the DAZ hype ?
Who have to re-buy the same textures again just because DAZ decided that 2000 x 2000 textures aren't big enough.
Who have to postwork bad joints in Photoshop because DAZ decided that V4.1's rigging was "good enough".
Who have to wait hours for renders to finish because V4.1's gazillion mags uses up all their ram ?

If I truly would hate the "buy, load, render" crowd I would just snicker at them, do my own thing, and don't waste my time with such stupid discussions.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways to do things.
And I can back up each and any of my claims with a render.

DAZ has a defacto monopoly in Poserland, so the solution is not to "create my own mesh" (For the record I can model somewhat and know how to rig but I hate mapping.), or don't use D|S, but to make people aware what they are missing and make them ask for more quality.

And by the way, I say the same about EF-meshes.
Sydney is just a rehashed MIKI morph, and while MIKI-2 bends considerably better than MIKI-1, she still has a long way to go to be called "acceptable"
And in general the G2 series meshes are way below what could have been possible.

Check out JimFarris gallery and his modified Posette:
http://xaa.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=posergallery

If he was able to create a Posette that bends better than any "professional" Poser mesh just by himself ,a how much better job DAZ and their professionial modellers using high-end equipment should have done ?

To be honest, I don't think that DAZ will change it's course anytime soon, unless there would be a mass exodus towards another mesh.
M4 will be rigged exactly like V4, and so will be A4 and any future derivate.

So unless someone appears who can match their advertising power, V4 will be the status quo in Poserdom for years to come.

As I said, personally I have everything I need, so I couldn't care less about what DAZ does or doesn't, or what anybody else uses to fill their renders.

But why shouldn't I try and find a few more disciples for the mysterious ways of the MORPHBRUSH once in a while?

At least it provides for some nice Monday morning (Actually evening) DRAMA.

;-)

BTW, what is wrong with a conforming hi-rez tounge ?
The unimesh folks all feature detacheable penises so that their manly bits won't get in the way when it's not needed.

Nothing l33t here, just finding a new usage for a tried and tested solution.

Quote - Maybe I'm old fashioned but the way I see it, if you don't like something, you don't buy and/or use it.  Simple, really. :biggrin:

We can't do things thataway.  It would just be.......too easy.

Ranting Crusades (with a capital "C") are more fun.

BTW - I have Poser 7, D|S (base), and Carrara 6 Pro on my PC.  And I'll have Poser Pro once it comes out.

The programs all work for me in their own ways.  I......fail to see any of it as being a moral issue, to be charged into under flags of battle: cannons roaring and machine guns blazing.  It simply doesn't reach to that degree of importance.

Hey -- I even like V4.  :scared:  But I don't see choosing to use Sydney ((or Jessi, Miki, whoever)) instead as representing some sort of Great Evil that needs to be railed against on a public streetcorner.

[Edit] -- I have a greater interest in Carrara than I do in D|S.  I tend to see Carrara and Poser Pro as representing the future for what I might call the 'intermediate' 3D market, while D|S and possible future lower-tier versions of Poser will be aimed at the hobbyist market.  But that's all just IMO -- and is nothing but idle speculation on my part.

I always wonder about the modified possette ... Does anyone know if they are just render and go or if each of the bends involves going into the joint parameters for something specific to the render? Just wondering.

Also, everyone hated the idea of detatchable parts. Well, a lot of people.

Personally I like some of the things that DAZ Studio does but I don't like the program overall (part of that is the GUI and part of it was long documented issues I had with it and other things as well. But it does a good job in a lot of ways.

"I always wonder about the modified possette ... Does anyone know if they are just render and go or if each of the bends involves going into the joint parameters for something specific to the render? Just wondering."

AFAIK all the joint modifications Jim Farris made to his Posette are permanent and ERC controlled, just like those of V3 or V4.
That means the renders show exactly how she bends by herself when you pose her without any additional work.

But by using joint poses it wouldn't be actually hard to even switch joint parameters inbetween poses.
(And do the same for clothing)
Professional studios usally create several different rigs per figure because weightmapping isn't actually that flexible and perfect as some people seem to think.

I prefer to apply my morphbrush fix morphs either  manually or via a pose file because I don't trust an automated system and try to keep the base cr2 as simple as possible, but they could be easily ERC rigged just as well.

Quote - Penguinisto, this discussion would be so much better if you'd actually know what you're talking about.

Umm, yeeeah...  (in my best Office Space tone...)

Quote - I WANTED to delete all my homemade custom work and instead use the best possible, ultra photorealistic, state of the art latest greatest DAZ mesh instead.

Why? IF it works for you, great... but what works for you most likely doesn't work for 90% of the user population, let alone a newbie who is asking where to start (you remember, the original topic of this thread)?  You got so wrapped up in the hate that you lost sight of why this thread was posted in the first place.

Quote - All technical points I brought against V4.1 are perfectly valid.

...according to you, and based on subjective opinion to boot (which others seem to disagree with in here).

Quote - What you call "fanboyism" is the only way to change things in Poserdom. There are no consumer watchdog organisations that could test a product and give an unbiased view here.

I prefer the Free Market Approach, myself. If it works, I buy it. If it sucks, I don't. If it's in-between, then I think about it.

Certainly beats whining about a figure in a thread about apps, doesn't it? ;)

Quote - But why should I lean back and just laugh at all those who fall for the DAZ hype ?
Who have to re-buy the same textures again just because DAZ decided that 2000 x 2000 textures aren't big enough.

Eh? The typical texture image size -- no matter who made it-- is 4096x4096. On the professional CG side, I've seen mere head textures get that big (and bigger yet).

Quote - Who have to wait hours for renders to finish because V4.1's gazillion mags uses up all their ram ?

Err, in which program? Because (like I pointed out earlier), I have zero problems with rendering any mesh on a cranky old Pentium III w/ 512MB of RAM and a 16MB GeForce2Go. It may take a bit longer than it would on my Mac, but for obvious reasons.

Quote - DAZ has a defacto monopoly in Poserland, so the solution is not to "create my own mesh" (For the record I can model somewhat and know how to rig but I hate mapping.), or don't use D|S, but to make people aware what they are missing and make them ask for more quality.

Ah, so you want followers.

I always find it interesting that someone with a grudge has to "make" people aware of something they are "missing", when they seem otherwise happy with the fact that they don't miss it at all - considering the wide variety of items out there, it's not exactly a monopoly, either.

Quote - As I said, personally I have everything I need, so I couldn't care less about what DAZ does or doesn't, or what anybody else uses to fill their renders.

And yet here you are...

/P