Quote -
And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3.

What does any of that matter? You want realism, go hire a model and take some pictures.

I'm not going to argue about D|S vs. Poser because frankly, I have only a marginal interest in either, at best, and if they both went belly up, I'd not likely miss either of them.
But V4 is a much more versatile mesh than V3. It's more dense, and the points are arranged better for morphing. Maybe that's not so evident with Poser's crap morphing tools, but take it into LightWave Modeler, modo, or ZBrush (or any quality polygon modeler) and have a look at what's possible.
Not just that, but the density of that mesh creates more points, allowing for more detail in the maps, considering the textures are interpolated between UV points. More density equals more detail, and allows for more even morphing with less texture stretching.
Yes, it's more complicated, but so what? Really, why does it matter to you? You said you'd like to like V4... ("I WANTED V4 to be good.")... but the argument is it's too much to deal with. And yet you go on about how thoroughly you understand all this rigging and joints and so on. Look at it as a challenge. If you're such an expert, it shouldn't be a problem. If you want to like V4, by all means find the things about it which allow experts such as yourself to go to town on it.

Quote -
Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

You say this as if it were a bad thing....
Well, I bought two full fledged 3D painting programs - Deep Paint 3D a few years ago, and more recently, Body Paint 3D, standalone version.
3D painting on a mesh is a hugely more productive thing, for me at least, and many in the professional CG animation world, for that matter, than painting in 2D, and I can tell you 3D painting on a V4 mesh is far, far easier and less frustrating than painting V3.
Of course, both those programs allow you to switch back and forth between 3D, 2D and projection modes.
It's a large part of where texturing for 3D characters is headed in the future, and V4 is more than ready for it. In 3D painting the density of the mesh is even more important, as the interpolation of the "paint" between vertex points  is more apparent. That's why you switch back and forth between modes and projections.
So Joe AverageTextureguy can't easily paint a good texture for V4 in Photoshop. My heart bleeds for him and the loss that means for the community, really it does.

Quote -
I predict there will be A LOT less (If any) V4.1 hybrids out there, and a lot less free V4.1 textures.

Nope, DAZ started a race for the bottom line, because that's where they think the money is.

Oooh, the big Evil DAZ trying to make a profit while sticking it to the little guy. It almost brings a tear to my eye. Lord, I love this country. :)

No reason for Remapping V4 other than selling new textures? I have heard that one before from naysayers, but the evidence doesn't really indicate that was the motivation. take a look at this comparison. V4's arm on the top, V3's arm on the bottom, which map is going to offer less distortion? and better ability to provide detail on smaller maps? Im not saying that the V3 maps aren't easier to use, they are. pelt mapping provides the least possible seams, which makes hiding seams much easier, but with that benifit comes drawbacks, the primarily drawback is major distortion in some areas that is impossible to minimize. the secondary drawback is that there is a lot of wasted area on the maps, requiring much larger maps to get the same amount of detail. so we are dealing with ease of use VS quality, if I want ease of use I will go with V3. for quality mapping I will go for V4 mapping, its definately more work but the benifits are definately there. try putting a tattoo on Both figure's arms and tell me V4's mapping isn't better.

Thank you, wdupre, for showing that.

Those "UV Checkers" and things similar show far more in an instant than any amount of simply looking at a UV map can do.

Shrugs.
I see that I'm wasting my time here.

@Penguinisto: The "Free Market aproach" gives us Walmart and sweatshops as well as lead poisoned toys.

You call it DAZ hating, I call it a public service so that consumers can make a truly informed decision.

MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice.

@wdupre: I never said V3's mapping was perfect. But what you all love to forget is that it were the hobbyists that made Poser big.

So the average hobbyist who just wants to make a few textures now has to buy an expensive 3d painting program just so DAZ can save a few inches of real estate on their jpg's?

Or buy a high end modeller because V4 refuses to properly work with Posers native morphing tools ?

I don't think so.

And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ? I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of.
Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?
MORE; MORE; MORE, NO, THATS NOT ENOUGH, WE DESERVE MORE....
It's not "old vs new", it's what works for MANY people and what doesn't.

People were more than happy with V3's mapping. There's tons of free stuff out there to proof it.
What good is a super perfect "professional" mapping when nobody can use it ?

Jeez, you should really listen to yourself.

Any grassroots movement can only take so much commodification before it is destroyed, and V4.1 is the tipping point.
But all that stupid ahtist types be damned, 'cause there's no munney in it, right ?

To you Vicky is just a virtual dress-up doll people play with to pass the time or maybe jerk off to.
It's all shitz and giggles, right, so who cares if she can't bend like a human or if she bogs down an older machine.

But SOME people take Poser a wee bit more seriously, and if they work real hard and put a lot of emotions into their renders, don't they deserve better than having to make do with a freakin' Barbie doll without kneecaps ?

I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have.
But a lot of people haven't.
And even IF they have, why should they have to waste their time ?

V4.1 is defective by design.
She is neither photorealistic, nor is she easily accessible any more.

Vicky used to be an artists tool everyone could use in any way he liked, regardless of skill and income.

Now Vicky is an effin' BRAND only those are allowed to work with who can afford to spend the time to aquire the necessary skills and buy the professional tools to handle her.

I definitely won't waste my time to fix all of V4.1's shortcomings.
I made several attempts but to me she just isn't salveable because there is not a single piece of her that is actually useable.

As she is now, one has to stick to the DAZ approved morphs and "morphforms", and that's it.

And that's not good enough for me.
And it shouldn't have to be good enough for anybody else.

Quote -
MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice.

Yes you're right. I am aware of this. I meant the desnsity of the UV coordinates in the map(s).
Actually, if you search the posts I made somewhere in the time frame of when V4 was released, you'll find I posted the comparitive polygon counts in some thread, somewhere. I don't expect you to do that, but take my word for it, it's there.

As for you "wasting my time here", yeah, that happens. 
It really sucks when you're the only one who just KNOWS something to be true and yet so many fail to achieve your higher understanding, doesn't it?

Quote -
And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ? I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of.
Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?

Probably because DAZ is hoping to raise the bar a little and offer something professionals can get into. You want to make professional CG animation with a 1024 texture for all uses and all shots, by all means go for it. let us know how an upclose face shot on a movie screen works out for you.

It's funny, with so many anti-Poser threads out there, and so much belief running rampant that it's never going to be more than a hobbiest app, and so much opposition to that belief, that we can find people opposed to it moving forward.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, V4 is a step forward in the Poser figure world.
Two years from now, when V5 is released, there will be much crying, breast -beating and moaning about how it's not v4.

Thus is 'Fanboyism'. Strangely enough, that was the first time I've heard it being employed
as an instrument of change. :) Seriously though, I use Poser when I need it, DAZ Studio for
rendering, Modo or trueSpace for modeling. Modo might replace DS for renders once I've
learned that aspect. I don't and won't condemn DAZ for marketing strategy. If I dislike the
practice, I won't deal with them. I have no agendas to persue. I am a hobbyist and will
use whichever tool does the job best. I have both Vickys also, and prefer V4, though 
Aiko is still the figure I use the most. 

Greywolf

Dunno if you have Dreamlights products to use with D|S, that will do way better than poser with it comes to image making only, and for realism. In poser you get the walk Cycle (other animation making goodies), and the material room in Poser 5, 6, 7 that does way better than D|S. Poser though is a memory (resource) hog, which could bog down your computer, when trying to make a scene. D|S can handle a nice scene a computer functions just fine, even huge ones (City, plus landscape and more). Poser can handle 9 camera settings or you have to save in library if you want more. D|S can have more than 9 cameras in a scene. D|S costs nothing, and well P7 you can pay for it. So, I can see the pros and cons between the two, which is difficult to divide the two, but your choice when it comes to a project. I have P5, P6, but not P7, which is no different although has some extra features. If D|S has a good material room just like Poser 5,6, 7 does, and a good walk cycle, then D|S would be my choice all the way, and it at no cost. The thing is I first started all this 3D stuff (8 years ago), I wanted to animate, entertain. I haven't even started yet. So, their goes the flaws between the two. Need another computer to do the job aside while doing other things.

Quote - Modo might replace DS for renders once I've
learned that aspect.

Yeah, just wait until modo gets some CA tools into its workflow - bones, rigging, and so on. They've got an excellent team at Lux and know full well  that rigging is going to be a big thing for them. I'm guessing they'll create a system which rivals even XSI. Rigging a mesh for posing and/or animating is not difficult, with good tools, and I believe that in a few years Lux will be at or near the top of the heap in that respect.
Assuming they can do it without it being too buggy. ;)

Quote -
I don't and won't condemn DAZ for marketing strategy. If I dislike the
practice, I won't deal with them. I have no agendas to persue. I am a hobbyist and will
use whichever tool does the job best. I have both Vickys also, and prefer V4, though 
Aiko is still the figure I use the most. 

Greywolf

Yeah, there you go now, ruining this whole thing. Nothing like a little reality to screw up a perfectly good going-nowhere debate, huh? ;)

I find this whole thread fascinating. If I didn't know any better and were it not for all the technical mumbo-jumbo, I'd swear I was listening to a friend rant about how he hates the chick who just broke up with him. ;)

On a 32 bit system, even with two gigs of memory, I've found that Modo has less capacity for handling dense Poser meshes than Poser, Daz Studio and Carrara. This is unfortunate because Modo's renderer is pretty awesome. I'm going to attempt to use Modo's layers to expand the capability. Things may grind to a stop when two figures are loaded in one layer, but how many figures can it handle pre-render if they are loaded in separate layers and hidden until needed? But to the question that instigated this thread, I have to say that I like different things about Poser and Daz Studio. It’s easier to control the lights in Daz Studio. It’s easier to navigate a scene and set things up and the content brower is about ten times quicker than Poser's. Poser’s material system is superior. Scripts exist for Poser that will bring greater realism. You can rig a figure in Poser (barely, but still…). Is there any reason why anyone can’t have both Poser and Daz Studio? To those who think that Daz is trying to stifle creativity, how do you explain Carrara, a program geared toward those who want to model, rig and animate original content? I think it’s obvious that Daz is trying to stay in business and cover all of the bases. It’s just that the instant gratification prefab sex doll market is more busy.

Modo's still in its early stages, give it some time. Although they've begun on the road towards animation and being a full-featured rendering package, it's core use is still modeling.

Its OpenGL is actually behind Poser's in terms of speed. I have a G-Force 8600 GTS video card, and a 64 bit system with Vista 64 bit, 6 gigs of RAM, and an AMD dual core CPU, and modo seems to strain even with that.
Hopefully they'll work that out. They'll have to.

Quote - I find this whole thread fascinating. If I didn't know any better and were it not for all the technical mumbo-jumbo, I'd swear I was listening to a friend rant about how he hates the chick who just broke up with him. ;)

 

snort

:lol:

PS -- all hail Modo!!!!!!!  :thumbupboth:

((How's that for fanboyism........?)) 

JoePublic, since you didn't reply to my last post, I can only assume that you agree with all my points or that you simply couldn't think of any answers. Well, now that that's out of the way, let's move on.

"Shrugs.
I see that I'm wasting my time here."
Yup.

"@Penguinisto: The "Free Market aproach" gives us Walmart and sweatshops as well as lead poisoned toys."
It also gave you your car, TV, computer, plentiful food and that nice lifestyle you live. Or perhaps, comrad, you prefer old Soviet Russia! Da!

"You call it DAZ hating, I call it a public service so that consumers can make a truly informed decision."
No one will get an informed decision from you,  because you seem to have forgotten that you have to be informed first. Yeah, hate is always a good public service.......

"MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice."
As MikeJ said, he meant the density of the UV coordinates in the map. I recommend that you pay more attention so that you don't look so foolish.

"@wdupre: I never said V3's mapping was perfect. But what you all love to forget is that it were the hobbyists that made Poser big."
What does hobbyists making Poser big have to do with mapping?

"So the average hobbyist who just wants to make a few textures now has to buy an expensive 3d painting program just so DAZ can save a few inches of real estate on their jpg's?"
You don't need an expensive 3d painting program, any image editing program will do. If you were truly informed, you'd know that.

"Or buy a high end modeller because V4 refuses to properly work with Posers native morphing tools ? I don't think so."
You don't need a high end modeller to create morphs for V4, you can even use free modeling programs. If you were truly informed, you'd know that too.

"And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ?*
One that wants to make a large print? Here's a newsflash for you, not all Poser/DAZ Studio users are hobbiests, and I'll bet there are a lot of hobbiests who like to make large prints. Me for one. Besides, you can't really upsize an image without losing a lot of quality, but you can always downsize.

I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of."
Then you don't know a lot of Poser users.

Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?"
You consider large texture sizes to be high tech? Rotfl!!! What neck of the woods are you from?

It's not "old vs new", it's what works for MANY people and what doesn't."
Yup. Poser, DAZ Studio and V4 all work for MANY people.

"People were more than happy with V3's mapping. There's tons of fre stuff out there to proof it.
What good is a super perfect "professional" mapping when nobody can use it ?"
There's lots of proof in the stores and freestuff that plenty of other people can use it. You've got to realise that just because you can't do something or you can't figure something out doesn't mean that others can't.

"Jeez, you should really listen to yourself."
If you were really listening to yourself, you'd laughing yourself silly.

"Any grassroots movement can only take so much commodification before it is destroyed, and V4.1 is the tipping point.
But all that stupid ahtist types be damned, 'cause there's no munney in it, right ?"
So V4 is destroying what exactly?

"To you Vicky is just a virtual dress-up doll people play with to pass the time or maybe jerk off to."
(Pssst, your adolescence is showing.)

It's all shitz and giggles, right, so who cares if she can't bend like a human"
V4 isn't perfect, but she can bend better than any other female figure on the market.

"or if she bogs down an older machine."
Why would V4 bog down your machine more than V3? You said yourself and I quote, "Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3".  Please explain to everyone here, (we're all dying to know,) how V4 would bog down your machine more than V3 if she has has fewer polygons?

"But SOME people take Poser a wee bit more seriously, and if they work real hard and put a lot of emotions into their renders, don't they deserve better than having to make do with a freakin' Barbie doll without kneecaps ?"
So which "freakin' Barbie doll" with kneecaps do you use? Just curious.

"I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have.
But a lot of people haven't.
And even IF they have, why should they have to waste their time ?"
Please give us a list of all the faults of V4 and the ones that you've fixed, it should make some very interesting reading.

"V4.1 is defective by design.
She is neither photorealistic, nor is she easily accessible any more."
It takes a combination of mesh, lighting, textures, render settings etc to make a fairly realistic image. V4 can make as realistic image as any other mesh.  V4 is perfectly accessible to me an most other people, why are you having problems? Oh, and please give a list of all of V4's design defects.

"Vicky used to be an artists tool everyone could use in any way he liked, regardless of skill and income."
Vicky still is. Again, just because you can't do it doesn't mean most others can't.

"Now Vicky is an effin' BRAND only those are allowed to work with who can afford to spend the time to aquire the necessary skills and buy the professional tools to handle her."
You don't need any more special skills to use V4 than you do V3, anymore than you need more special skills to use Poser 7 than Poser 6.  You may need to learn new things to use Poser 7 and V4, but you don't need any new skills. You don't need any professional tools to use her either.

"I definitely won't waste my time to fix all of V4.1's shortcomings.
I made several attempts but to me she just isn't salveable because there is not a single piece of her that is actually useable."
But wait, you just said a couple paragraphs up that, "I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have." Do you have the skills or don't you? Thousands of other people aren't having problems using her, why are you?

"As she is now, one has to stick to the DAZ approved morphs and "morphforms", and that's it."
Actually there are V4 morphs available at other stores.  And yet once again, if you were truly informed, you'd know that.

"And that's not good enough for me.
And it shouldn't have to be good enough for anybody else."
It's nice to know that you set your standards so much higher than most other people. Most other people don't seem to be having all the problems you're having with her. Maybe you got a corrupted file. Try downloading again.

Coldrake

For me the choice was - and is - Poser 7. I do exclusively toonish stills (several renders with different shader trees) that are usually layered in postwork for a "drawn" like effect. I tried D|S twice at different times, but didn't find it suitable for my needs at the time. Material Room's awesome power has been a key deciding factor in my choice. Also Poser 7 is very stable on my system so that also counts big time. I've only had a couple of Poser 7 crashes ever. One doesn't need to rig or animate to prefer Poser over D|S. It's all about the needs. There are just so many ways to use these programs.

DS is ok but as all my renders are done in Vue, I have to use Poser.  I'm not too bothered by the interface or how hard it is to set lights in Poser because I don't :)

Use whatever works for you

............See Signature tagline.

This topic comes up every week. Studio is lame. Without animation features, walk cycles, it goes no where. They like keeping it a certain way. They'll clutter it with Poser features like they did with stupid mini cams but that's it. I gave up on it a while ago and have no intensions of ever installing that annoying piece of software again on my system.

You can't even make or save a '.cr2 file in it, so what good is it?

It's a useless free toy. In the end, you still need Poser to make Poser files.

These threads are a waste of space because you ALL have Poser anyway.

If you have Poser, you don't Studio.

V4 bah. V3 for me always. A much better figure.

Lol.
So DAZ is aiming at the "professional" market with V4.1 then ?
Splendid.

Yeah, right. Let's use that DAZ Vicky chick for some professional work 'cause she's got that 4000x4000 maps.
Never mind her proportions are completely off so she looks like a Marvel toon rather than a real human.
Never mind that she lacks each and any body detail like proper kneecaps or shoulderblades.
Nevermind that her thighs get all lumpy when you try to bend her.
But hey, she's HAWT so away with the stupid custom build photorealistic meshes professional Studios pay real CG artists to make and let's all use that DAZ chick that comes with a license as big as New Yorks telephone book.

Yeah right, I reeeeeaaaaallly see that happen.

In the professional world it's all about originality.
YOU DON'T USE SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF, PERIOD.
Especialy not if it comes with a license plastered all over.

Seems too few people here are able to understand what I'm talking about, so let's try it this way:
The HotRod movement started in the 30's and came to a high in the 50's because of what ?
The Ford Flathead V8 and the Chevy smallblock V8 engine.
Two simple. powerfull engines everyone and his brother could modify and tinker with with a few simple hand tools.
It was completely DIY, it was a grassroots movement, it was for the common man and many talented people turned cars into rolling pieces of art.
A few people became professionals and sold speed equipment and opened shops, but they still were part of the community.

Nowadays ? Look under a modern car's hood and you can't even spot the engine because it's buried under a ton of gadget and gizmos and stuff that breaks for you and shifts for you and thinks for you and all the crap people are told they can't live without anymore.
Cars became fat and sluggish, and then they needed MORE power just to move as fast as the older cars could.

But hey, instead of HotRods and Customs we today have "Pimp my Ride".

Progress is nice, I'm all for progress in science.
But unabashed consumerism is not progress. Discarding old stuff that works perfectly just so you can sell new stuff is wrong.

And that's exactly what will happen here.
V3 was simple enough so everybody could be part of that new idea called Poser.
If you call that communism, so be it.
I happily admit that I put the "COMMunity" over the egoistical needs of some individuals.

And what the Poser community needs is at least one (1) PHOTOrealistic model that actually LOOKS like a human, BENDS like a human yet is simple and lightweight enough that EVERYBODY has the same chance at getting creative with her.

JUST ONE.

Once we have that, DAZ can churn out as many stylized cartoon chicks as they want.
I'm all for stylized cartoon chicks. But I call them AIKO or GIRL, not VICKY, because VICKY is supposed to be realistic.

MIKI 1 was a success despite her bending worse than RENDA because she was REALISTIC.
No wannabe "artist" smoothed and stretched her body to make it more "stylish" but the modeller just transferred A REAL WOMAN as good as he could into 3D-space.
THAT is good craftmanship.
Let the end user do the "art" part. All the modeller has to do is to provide a "blank canvas".

MIKI 1 had MANY faults, and MIKI 2 has still A LOT, but noone can say anymore that PHOTOREALISM won't sell.
That a PHOTOREALISTIC woman couldn't be sexy.
That a PHOTOREALISTIC woman is not what people want.

You can still stylize or toonify her as much as you want later, but FIRST give the people an ACCURATE model of a human being.
Don't force your "artistic vision" on everybody else and tell people that they could fix things themselves if they really wanted.
That's hogwash.

Had MIKI 1 bended like Apollo I seriously doubt DAZ would have that defacto monopol it has now.

DAZ thinks they know what people want just because they have good sales.
I say people buy their stuff because there is no real choice.

But as I said, it's wasted time.
I'm not that stupid to believe that someone at DAZ would really listen.

And it's not just DAZ, it's the whole culture they and others brought and which so many people were so eager to adopt
BUY MORE, CONSUME, BE HAPPY, OBEY !

Be gratefull to all those wonderfull merchants who bring you all that exiting wonderfull products for exitingly low, low prices.

Sigh.
There used to be so much talent in this community. Everybody was happy to share and to find out new things.

And now it's all a freakin'..I don't know what.
With winners and loosers and fanboys and consumers and gloating and whining and fractions and instead of combining all that talent to make a better Poser everybody's at everybody else's throats to make another buck.

Sad, just sad.

Poser took the elitism out of 3D-art, and DAZ is eager to put it back in.

Quote - Lol.

And that's exactly what will happen here.
V3 was simple enough so everybody could be part of that new idea called Poser.
If you call that communism, so be it.
I happily admit that I put the "COMMunity" over the egoistical needs of some individuals.

And what the Poser community needs is at least one (1) PHOTOrealistic model that actually LOOKS like a human, BENDS like a human yet is simple and lightweight enough that EVERYBODY has the same chance at getting creative with her.

JUST ONE.
.
I'm not that stupid to believe that someone at DAZ would really listen.

And it's not just DAZ, it's the whole culture they and others brought and which so many people were so eager to adopt
BUY MORE, CONSUME, BE HAPPY, OBEY !

Poser took the elitism out of 3D-art, and DAZ is eager to put it back in.

Her??? isnt that sort of assuming that every user of poser has your desire for some idealized realistic fantasy FEMALE in the first place??? to be Frank V2/M2 were "simple enough" as they only required an OBJ/CR2/PNG and whatever textures you wanted after that. I would have like to have seen a M2 /V2 Hires version released . But due to successful marketing people accepted that ONEfigure (V3 or Steph3 et al) that required over 800 "support" files (INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTAS), to be fully functional was an "Advance in figure technology" Apollo Max(OBJ/CR2/PNG) has proven that to be ridiculous My ENTIRE installation of Cinema4D Studio with the bodypaint,advanced render,dynamics,sketch&toon and Cloth sim& Mocca module does NOT require 800 support files to function And now I read about people setting up an entire separate runtimes just for the bloatware abombination Known as "V4" But alas SIr you waste your time with this Crusade against DAZ/V4 as it should be apparent by now that you will find no angry mob of villagers here to rally to your cause and storm castle draper in Utah with torches and pitchforks in hand. Ubiquitous "V" Chick is an Iconic Idol and her worshippers Dont care about the technical details good or bad. -Wolf-

@wolf359: Your perfectly right. But it still is fun to yank a few chains sometimes.

Btw, I think V2 and M2 are still great figures and I use M2 a lot as well as M2LO.
I just made a version that can wear M3 clothing natively but is all M2 geometry.
But the unimeshes are the most supported, so those are my "main" meshes.
But I use V3RR and M3RR because there are no separate injection morph folders needed and I made some highrez body, lorez head hybrids for special uses.
V3RR is basically a V2 that can use V3 textures and wear V3 clothes.
Laura and Luke have much better joints than V3 and M3, and they make great adults with a little morph work.
I also make my own bodymorphs with the morphbrush so I have no real need for the DAZ morphs anyway.

"Ubiquitous "V" Chick is an Iconic Idol
and her worshippers Dont care about the technical details good or bad."

Yep, that pretty much sums up why I started to post in this thread. :-)

@coldrake: Just so you don't think I'd ignore you:

"JoePublic, since you didn't reply to my last post, I can only assume that you agree with all my points or that you simply couldn't think of any answers. Well, now that that's out of the way, let's move on."
I think you assume a wee bit too much here. ;-)

"It also gave you your car, TV, computer, plentiful food and that nice lifestyle you live. Or perhaps, comrad, you prefer old Soviet Russia! Da!"
I actually prefer a so called "social market economy" where companies are regulated for the common good.

"No one will get an informed decision from you,  because you seem to have forgotten that you have to be informed first. Yeah, hate is always a good public service......."
After trying for seven years to turn Posette, Judy, V2 and V3 as well as others into passable human beings, I think I know a thing or two, actually.

"As MikeJ said, he meant the density of the UV coordinates in the map. I recommend that you pay more attention so that you don't look so foolish."
Last time I opened a Vicky object in UV-mapper the number of UV coordinates was identical to the number of vertices in the mesh. But I guess V4.1 is so sophisticated that she even has invisible UV-coordinates. But as I said, I hate mapping, so if V4.1 truly has MORE UV-coordinates despite of being lower resolution, I stand corrected.

"What does hobbyists making Poser big have to do with mapping?
You don't need an expensive 3d painting program, any image editing program will do. If you were truly informed, you'd know that."
Please re-read carefully what I wrote about differently scaled bodyparts. Maybe also wdupre's answer.

"You don't need a high end modeller to create morphs for V4, you can even use free modeling programs. If you were truly informed, you'd know that too."
No, not to make a few minor headmorphs. But if you morph the body too much, you have to re-adjust her 91 JSM-mags.
See that's exactly what I'm talking about. V4.1 is so complicated, not even a reasonable intelligent person like you is able to understand exactly how she works.

"One that wants to make a large print? Here's a newsflash for you, not all Poser/DAZ Studio users are hobbiests, and I'll bet there are a lot of hobbiests who like to make large prints. Me for one. Besides, you can't really upsize an image without losing a lot of quality, but you can always downsize."
You are absolutely right, That's why I keep a backup with the original textures in case I need them.
But sorry, the MOST COMMON use for Vicky is to post an 2000X2000 render of to a web gallery.

"Then you don't know a lot of Poser users."
Maybe I just know the "wrong" ones ?

"You consider large texture sizes to be high tech? Rotfl!!! What neck of the woods are you from?"
A place where usability trumps bleeding edge, perhaps ?
Remember the Allies won WW2 with ancient tech Sherman tanks while the Germans had all the latest high tech panzers.

"Yup. Poser, DAZ Studio and V4 all work for MANY people."
The problem is not THAT they work, but HOW they work.

"There's lots of proof in the stores and freestuff that plenty of other people can use it. You've got to realise that just because you can't do something or you can't figure something out doesn't mean that others can't."
Again, the problem is not wether or not "I" can do something or not, but that A LOT LESS people will be able to make V4.1 textures compared to how many people could make V3 textures.

"If you were really listening to yourself, you'd laughing yourself silly."
Please at least try to be more witty, next time.

"So V4 is destroying what exactly?"
V4 destroys the DIY attitude or whatever what's left of it because it nurtures the attitude that buying is better than creating.

"(Pssst, your adolescence is showing.)"
I have no problem with that. Porn is art !

"V4 isn't perfect, but she can bend better than any other female figure on the market."
And it takes me ten minutes with the morphbrush to make ANY female figure bend better than V4.1.
Pretty sad, isn't it ?

"Why would V4 bog down your machine more than V3? You said yourself and I quote, "Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3".  Please explain to everyone here, (we're all dying to know,) how V4 would bog down your machine more than V3 if she has has fewer polygons?"
Sorry to again being forced to correct you, but while V4.1 has a few polygons less than V3 she stores all her morphs permanently in her cr2, and her body uses 91 (ninetyone!) Joint Smoothing Magnets. And each of those 91 JSM's consists of three separate parts, so that is 273 additional actors that Poser has to calculate everytime you pose her or move a camera.

"So which "freakin' Barbie doll" with kneecaps do you use? Just curious."
I mostly use modified V3RR and M3RR, as well as modified Luke and Laura because they have the best joints out of the box, can use all Unimesh stuff, and are easily turned into adults because they have more average (adult !) proportions.

"Please give us a list of all the faults of V4 and the ones that you've fixed, it should make some very interesting reading."
I could and maybe I even will, but it would be a lot of work as I intend to back up all my claims with a comparison render.
But in the meantime just search through my older posts here on Rendo.

"It takes a combination of mesh, lighting, textures, render settings etc to make a fairly realistic image. V4 can make as realistic image as any other mesh.  V4 is perfectly accessible to me an most other people, why are you having problems? Oh, and please give a list of all of V4's design defects."
Please see above.
And Please keep in mind that my goals is 100% PHOTOrealism, not "quasi-realistic" as in "It's neither a Toon nor anime so it must be realistic"
If you take a virtual Barbiedoll and throw photorealistic lights at her you get a best a render that looks like a photo of an actual Barbiedoll.
But never something that looks like a photo of a real human being.

"Vicky still is. Again, just because you can't do it doesn't mean most others can't."
I'm sure folks with the talent and knowledge like Anton Kisiel or maybe Blackhearted could make V4.1 their bitch, but the average Poserite will be stuck with just spinning some face dials.

"You don't need any more special skills to use V4 than you do V3, anymore than you need more special skills to use Poser 7 than Poser 6.  You may need to learn new things to use Poser 7 and V4, but you don't need any new skills. You don't need any professional tools to use her either."
You need a a profound knowledge of cr2's to make truly new bodymorphs because of the embedded JSM's, and a full fledged 3D-painter to create seamless textures.
And a high end computer to use her without too much lag.

"But wait, you just said a couple paragraphs up that, "I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have." Do you have the skills or don't you? Thousands of other people aren't having problems using her, why are you?"
You constantly mix up "using" her with really being able to "making her your own"
Just spinning a few dials or applying a custom character someone else made is not equal to being able to being truly creative with a mesh.

"Actually there are V4 morphs available at other stores.  And yet once again, if you were truly informed, you'd know that."
See above. I don't want to use someone else's morphs. I want to be able to do my own. It's easy with V3, but next to impossible with V4.1.

"It's nice to know that you set your standards so much higher than most other people. Most other people don't seem to be having all the problems you're having with her. Maybe you got a corrupted file. Try downloading again."
That actually WAS funny. Bravo !
But the point is that a lot of those people who claim to have no "problems" with V4.1 aren't even able to recognize problems as such because they have been trained by DAZ to accept them as inevitable.

And even if we assume that some people truly have no problems with V4.1 because they never want to do more than "buy, load, render" , why should they have a problem with a lighter, better optimized mesh that bends better and looks more realistic right out of the box ?

"Coldrake"

JoePublic

Quote - Lol.
In the professional world it's all about originality.
YOU DON'T USE SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF, PERIOD.
Especialy not if it comes with a license plastered all over.

Well, that very well may be true.. but then again I wouldn't know.   I'm not a professional artist, nor is it likely that I ever will be.  My application is far different than that, as are a lot of other peoples application.  Not everyone that uses a 3d rendering program does so with the intention of selling their finished render as a standalone work.

Quote -
Seems too few people here are able to understand what I'm talking about, so let's try it this way:
The HotRod movement started in the 30's and came to a high in the 50's because of what ?
The Ford Flathead V8 and the Chevy smallblock V8 engine.
Two simple. powerfull engines everyone and his brother could modify and tinker with with a few simple hand tools.
It was completely DIY, it was a grassroots movement, it was for the common man and many talented people turned cars into rolling pieces of art.
A few people became professionals and sold speed equipment and opened shops, but they still were part of the community.

Actually I understand what your getting at, but I hope you'll forgive me when I point out that perhaps you might have missed a point or two yourself in this discussion.  Take your example of the hot rodders of old, who began working on their own engines and souping up their cars.  That's all well and good for them, but what happens if you want a fast car but you're one of the people who doesn't know how to work on engines?  You were either stuck driving your mom's station wagon or paying a boatload of money to have someone who could work on engines do the work for you, there was no in between.  

Quote -
Nowadays ? Look under a modern car's hood and you can't even spot the engine because it's buried under a ton of gadget and gizmos and stuff that breaks for you and shifts for you and thinks for you and all the crap people are told they can't live without anymore.
Cars became fat and sluggish, and then they needed MORE power just to move as fast as the older cars could.

The automated systems on modern cars do a lot of things the old hobbiests could even dream of, and it wasn't that people were told they "couldn't live without it" or that it's a bad thing that it exists.  Take my daughters neon for example, it's a lightweight car with a small 2.0 litre engine in it but it's still a blast to drive.  It's got plenty of pickup and handles like a dream.  Back in the hotrodding glory days you couldn't get that kind of power and performance unless you had a fairly good sized engine that was properly built and tuned.

And having done a fair amount of hotrodding myself, believe me once you take that hotrod down the track a few times guess what?  Your going to be tuning the engine some more.  Not so with the little 4 cylinder power plant in my daughters neon.  Computers sense the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gases and automatically adjust the fuel flow to the engine real time to decrease wasted fuel.  Computers also monitor various other aspects of the engine and constantly adjust things like airflow and fuel intake so that the car is runnning efficiently at all tempratures and speeds.

The old 72 ford pinto I used to run 1/4 sprint track in was an awesome machine and a sight to behold, but it didn't have any of those kind of features.  Tuning the engine required a mechanic, and the engine had to be constantly monitored and maintained because it was built for performance, not drivability.  It's entire design concept was different, it was designed for maximum horespower and speed in a short sprint.  We even had to take the engine entirely out of the car to change the oil filter, which is what happens when you shoehorn a V8 into a car that was originally designed for a V4.  But our design concept was simple.. light weight and massive horsepower equals speed.

It wasn't designed to be easy to use for the novice driver.  But hey, if nobody had ever built a car that was designed to be easily maintained and built for long trips the only people who would be driving today would be mechanics and their families.  The rest of us would all be taking the bus.

So really what your comparing here is apples and oranges.  Granted, you won't see many professional artists using Daz Studio - but then again not everyone is a professional artist.  You won't see too many people driving dodge neons at the Indy either, but then again not everyone is a professional race car driver.

So while my daughters Dodge neon certainly won't be winning at Indy next year, it's still nice for her to have to get back and forth to work in.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Quote - @wolf359: Your perfectly right. But it still is fun to yank a few chains sometimes.

Is that what you're doing.......?  OK -- no doubt, you've successfully yanked the chain on the safety shower, and dumped 100 gallons of icy cold water all over yourself in the process.  So: we all owe you an enormous debt of thanks for doing that.  Laughter is a good medicine, and you've provided it to us in great abundance with the comedy in this thread.

Be careful, though: even the very best jokes can become stale when they're dragged out too long, or repeated too often. 

Carry on, my friend, carry on........you might convert the neighbor's cat to your way of thinking.  Then again: cats don't like loud noises.

Regarding Modo, (and ignoring the debate for a moment) I tested to see just how many Poser figures I could load and render in Modo 203, provided that the figures were loaded in separate layers. I loaded 40 un-textured Daz people before quitting of my own accord. Modo performed about as well as Vue 5 Infinite when one Poser figure is imported in that program. That is to say, there was some sluggishness, but as long as I remained in the "Items" selection mode things remained workable. It will be interesting to see how Modo handles figures with textures. I'm thinking it might be practical to build and render large scenes in Modo, even if they're loaded with Poser content.

Quote - Last time I opened a Vicky object in UV-mapper the number of UV coordinates was identical to the number of vertices in the mesh. But I guess V4.1 is so sophisticated that she even has invisible UV-coordinates. But as I said, I hate mapping, so if V4.1 truly has MORE UV-coordinates despite of being lower resolution, I stand corrected.

It's not the number of coordinates. You are right about that.
Density means how much of the UV space each coordinate set (polygon) occupies. V4's UVs are more compact (less space wasted on the map). That means that a 2D texture of the same pixel resolution on V4 will retain more detail (and not pixellate as quickly) in 3d space than it would on V3.
V4's UVs have a lot less distortion (UV stretch) also.
It's much better mapping for hi-res needs.

Mod Post:

Chill out, folks. We all have opinions, and we're all entitled to them.

Trying to convert others to your opinions by using the ol' flaming-sword-of-self-righteousness-and-trusty-shield-of-insults technique, is probably a complete waste of time. You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, as a wise man once said.

Seriously, don't make me break out the cat pics, here. Because my cats are all, like, "OMG no pikshurs, I are havin bad furr day. kthxbai."

I think part of the problem with V4 is that people don't understand why she was created the way she was (at least as far as some things). Her face is sort of a blended face (you called it stylized) but it was intended as a more neutral base to get rid of the "she always looks like Vicky with that huge nordic jaw" thing etc. It was softer to be a more generic starting point. An averaged form. Same thing for the body (for the most part, I have some issues with her there too) but it requres the user to turn more dials and a lot of people just don't do that. I think DAZ was also hoping for more after market support to fill in some of the areas. That was, at least how I understand it, the reasoning behind her look. more generic as a starting point, clay to be moulded and all that.

Quote - I think part of the problem with V4 is that people don't understand why she was created the way she was (at least as far as some things). Her face is sort of a blended face (you called it stylized) but it was intended as a more neutral base to get rid of the "she always looks like Vicky with that huge nordic jaw" thing etc. It was softer to be a more generic starting point. An averaged form. Same thing for the body (for the most part, I have some issues with her there too) but it requres the user to turn more dials and a lot of people just don't do that. I think DAZ was also hoping for more after market support to fill in some of the areas. That was, at least how I understand it, the reasoning behind her look. more generic as a starting point, clay to be moulded and all that.

Out of all the Daz figures I find V4 to be the best, due to the way she looks. V4 is IMHO more real looking than the other Vickis before. I still use my other Vickis still. Since I have started using poser (almost 6 years now) and the more Female and Male characters that come out there is not true realistic looking figure that is straight "out of the box" with out some texturing involved or some morphs added. Even the  G2 female figures look unreal till you get a good texture and lighting on them. 

This is the kind of realism I expected from V4.1.

Miki has it all: The shape, the proportions, the bodydetail.
Because she was modelled after a real girl AND THEN LEFT ALONE.

No toning down, no smoothing, no stretching to "improve" her looks.
This is the kind of realistic I expect from a 2007 Poser mesh.

Here is one of my own attempts using V3RR. Completely different girl, completely different bodytype.

But still correct proportions, correct bodydetail, correct shape.
THEN you can add photorealistic lights and a photorealistic skin.

But you first need to have an accurately shaped mesh.
And so far none of the meshes out there except MIKI deliver that.
It wouldn't even be such a problem if not each and any clothing item out there wasn't tailored for her default bodyshape.
And the "morphforms" simply don't cut it, so you need a custom morph.

So even IF you make an accurate morph for V4.1, no clothing will fit anymore.
Not to mention that it is extremely hard to do a really radical remorph with her because of the JSM mags.

Put V4.1 next to a photograph of a real woman.
Supermodel, average woman, old, young, whatever.
You will quickly notice how much is wrong with her.

Here is a quick mesh comparison I rendered in Lightwave. The ball on the right clearly has the problem of not being as convincing of a ball as the one on the left. Edges, sharp angles, overall lack of ballicity. You will quickly notice how much is wrong with it.

You know what I'm wondering MikeJ ?

I'm wondering why I can't remember ever reading a single one of your posts despite you having an enormous post count of 12813 ?
Could it be that all your posts are as stupid and meaningless as those you made in this thread so far, hmm?

Yeah, that could explain that.
Thanks heaven, for a moment I was afraid my bullshit detector had stopped working.
Whew.

:-)

Actually I was the mod of the Vue forum for about a year and a half, until I quit. if you find and read any of that you'll notice I'm equally talented at being decent and respectful as I am at being stupid and meaningless.
Life is nothing without variety. :)

You just can't stand it, can you? It really eats you up inside that your "point" isn't going over as well as it should. Isn't it?
Good luck with that.

Tell you what. You want some REAL practice? Take your Miki over to CG Talk and get into a discussion in the maya or XSI forum about realism, rigging and mapping.... then you can come back here and tell us all about all they learned.

Ok,  apparently some have missed Karens post to stop the bickering, and since we are moving right along into personal insult land, Im locking this down.