I see what you mean.  That would make it hard to learn.  I'm not a big fan of the interface in the (free) 2D version of Deep Paint, either.  OTOH, I do kind of like the interface in the free version of C4D. LOL.  It's all about the free.

I really need to make time to check the seams on my Apollo character so I can get him done. Mmph.  Always a million things to do. 

Lyrra , you are just jealous!

:)

lobo

I dont think I can dignify that with a reply lol

.....good thing you cant see the rude hand gestures though

Lyrra

Quote - Dee, WOW! That's quite an investment!! Good for you, though! :-)  And I sincerely agree with you about V4's seams. LOL.  Argh!

Stepdad, here's the thing.  What I think, and what you think about flooding or not flooding the market is totally irrelevant.  It's Renderosity's store, so love it or hate it, it's their choice.  And this is their decision and their policy.  We have to accept it or go elsewhere.  They're certainly not going to change policy just because someone asks.  Trust me on that one.  I've been in the trenches with them.  LOL. 

And like Kym said, you can use resources to create completely original characters.  But you can't put out several of them a week.  There is just not physically enough time to do it.  It's not an insult or meant as an insult.  It's just that regardless of how fast a person works, or how fast their machine is, it's still going to take a certain amount of time to put those pieces together.  Does it matter?  That's up to the vendor to decide when creating, and the customer to decide when purchasing.  Do they get sold here? That's up to Renderosity.  There are plenty of perfectly legal, legitimate, and worthwhile things we are not allowed to sell here, but are free to sell somewhere else.

Like I said before, my older characters use resource kits, my newer ones don't.  I felt that I could only go so far with the resource kits.  Beyond that, I was altering them so much that I decided there was no point in using the kit in the first place.  So I don't use them any more.  I have no problem saying I have characters that are still for sale that use resource kits.  But I don't feel like I have anything to gain from using them in the future, so I won't.

Ok, I lost where I was going with this... ROFL!   I'm sure I had a point when I started, but I can't remember what it was. :-P  Oh, well.  I've got mesh wrangling to do, anyway. 

Never wished to imply that Renderosity shouldn't be able to say and do what they wish for there own store, just not really certain why some people seem to take such an affront to the use of resource kits in making characters.

Now, for the record, I don't buy a lot of characters, in fact I think I've only ever found 1 I felt I really wanted to purchase and that was quite some time ago.  Not that folks don't do some outstanding work here, but most of what i do with Poser at least "professionally" doesn't really require them so I don't buy a lot of them, and on the rare occasion that I need one I generally put something together myself.  

If any artist floods the market with characters that are not unique, wholly originally and well done guess what?  Yes, they might have some initial success, they might even get a small "following" who really like what they do, but odds are good they won't get a lot of repeat business after a while.

Artists that do much higher quality work will - this was my point entirely.  So I for one think that the market should be allowed to sort itself out.  If the good folks at Rendo happen to have a different take?  No problem.. there website, there company.. there decision.  But I think in the long run the best arbiter of what is and is not good as far as products is concerned is the marketplace itself.  Just my opinion, naturally.

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree then.  Open markets cater to cheap mediocrity.  As evidenced by the fact that there are a lot more McDonald's than there are of all the high quality restaurants put together.  lol.

What sells products, IMHO, is good and detailed promos. As a buyer and not a merchant, in Vicky characters for example, I look for: Realistic skin; realistic eyes; realistic eyelashes (many merchants fail here at the lashes which do not even look like mascara - just fake); an appealing to me morph which is subjective to the buyer. Daz's promos are so tiny I can't see the textures. Rendo's used to be bigger and more detailed. Still, they are far superior to Daz's promos. I like to see the character nude as I do pin-ups. I don't care about second skins because they never look real. Some people do like them. Also, if your product or scene is so detailed and hi-rez that it crashes my high-end PC, then I am going to be unhappy. Daz's Bar Italia is an example. On props, I like realistic wall, floor etc. textures. Real brick walls have discoloration from the weather etc. on them and are not perfect. I do not want to have to postwork the entire set. Vendors who create interior sets - please include lights! Not everyone is experienced in setting up lights in an interior that is completely enclosed with no "make invisible" option for the walls because the room is one welded piece. Argh! Also, vendors who make the same hair over and over with minor changes can't expect me to buy it. It's all subjective, really. Nobody is forcing us to buy anything we don't like.

Quote - Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree then.  Open markets cater to cheap mediocrity.  As evidenced by the fact that there are a lot more McDonald's than there are of all the high quality restaurants put together.  lol.

True, but have you ever stopped to consider what would happen if Mcdonalds were outlawed and the only resteraunts who could do business were of the expensive, high quality variety?  

Also, if no one liked Mcdonald's food and there was no need of it, don't you think that there wouldn't be a Mcdonalds on practically every corner, right next to a Walgreens?

Quote - What sells products, IMHO, is good and detailed promos. As a buyer and not a merchant, in Vicky characters for example, I look for: Realistic skin; realistic eyes; realistic eyelashes (many merchants fail here at the lashes which do not even look like mascara - just fake); an appealing to me morph which is subjective to the buyer. Daz's promos are so tiny I can't see the textures. Rendo's used to be bigger and more detailed. Still, they are far superior to Daz's promos. I like to see the character nude as I do pin-ups. I don't care about second skins because they never look real. Some people do like them. Also, if your product or scene is so detailed and hi-rez that it crashes my high-end PC, then I am going to be unhappy. Daz's Bar Italia is an example. On props, I like realistic wall, floor etc. textures. Real brick walls have discoloration from the weather etc. on them and are not perfect. I do not want to have to postwork the entire set. Vendors who create interior sets - please include lights! Not everyone is experienced in setting up lights in an interior that is completely enclosed with no "make invisible" option for the walls because the room is one welded piece. Argh! Also, vendors who make the same hair over and over with minor changes can't expect me to buy it. It's all subjective, really. Nobody is forcing us to buy anything we don't like.

My point exactly... if you prefer the higher quality characters then only buy the higher quality characters.  For me I don't buy much of anything, my own use for poser is much different than most and as such there is very little on the market that supports my application.  But I guess my thinking when it comes to a marketplace is that quality will win out over quantity every time, and that you should just allow that to happen of it's own accord rather than trying to institute some sort of artificial control over it.

Again, no problem if Rendo see's it differently, that's Rendo's choice.  But I think there is room in the market for both high quality, more expensive products and lower quality, less expensive products of a similar nature.  Just like there is room in the world for Mcdonald's and all of the 4 and 5 star resteraunts out there.  Just my  humble opinion of course, but I think in the final analysis if a there is a market for a product it will sell, and if not it won't.. and that should be the final determination on whether or not a product is successful.

Would your feelings on that change if a city had a quota on the maximum number of restaurants allowed inside the city? Most marketplaces do have a limit on the number of items they will release per day or week, not per person, but for everyone to fit into.

Well, Ute posted a gallery render yesterday, but I don't know whether her stuff is back in the marketplace - to be honest, I haven't yet checked - I only look there when I want to buy something.

Sheila

Quote - Would your feelings on that change if a city had a quota on the maximum number of restaurants allowed inside the city? Most marketplaces do have a limit on the number of items they will release per day or week, not per person, but for everyone to fit into.

Exactly.  And since top-40 sellers are guaranteed a wait of 3-days or less, the rest of us have to wait in the queue for two weeks or more, if they fill up the available slots.

Quote - What sells products, IMHO, is good and detailed promos. As a buyer and not a merchant, in Vicky characters for example, I look for: Realistic skin; realistic eyes; realistic eyelashes (many merchants fail here at the lashes which do not even look like mascara - just fake); an appealing to me morph which is subjective to the buyer. Daz's promos are so tiny I can't see the textures. Rendo's used to be bigger and more detailed. Still, they are far superior to Daz's promos. I like to see the character nude as I do pin-ups. I don't care about second skins because they never look real. Some people do like them. Also, if your product or scene is so detailed and hi-rez that it crashes my high-end PC, then I am going to be unhappy. Daz's Bar Italia is an example. On props, I like realistic wall, floor etc. textures. Real brick walls have discoloration from the weather etc. on them and are not perfect. I do not want to have to postwork the entire set. Vendors who create interior sets - please include lights! Not everyone is experienced in setting up lights in an interior that is completely enclosed with no "make invisible" option for the walls because the room is one welded piece. Argh! Also, vendors who make the same hair over and over with minor changes can't expect me to buy it. It's all subjective, really. Nobody is forcing us to buy anything we don't like.

I do agree with most of your points, btw.  I'm not ignoring your response. :-) 

One question, though.  When did Rendo have bigger promos?  They've been 800x800 as long as I can remember.  Or am I misunderstanding again?

Far as I know, promos have always been 800 x 800.  There used to be fewer of 'em, too.

I think Syltermermaid's store here at Rosity is now open for business.

Sheila

Yes, well it should be mentioned that Ute did not become a top 30 merchant by producing product that doesn't sell. She seems to have to be constantly on the defensive though from sniping attacks directed against her astonishing productivity.

Frankly, I'm amazed at her productive output and have told her so on many occasions. It's not that she makes so many characters that's amazing - it's that she makes so many 'desirable' characters. In the last analysis her characters are 'appealing' and that's why they sell so well.

I don't mean to jump in here with my opinion because I couldn't make a character to save my life - merchant resources or not, but strictly from a user's perspective I think her character morphs have a very appealing look to them and I like them just fine for my renders. Apparently so do many others because she certainly sells a lot of them :)

This may piss off vendors who spend a lot more time on creating more unique, detailed textures but it's the customers who drive the process and the tail does not wag the dog :)

• Rick

Excellent post Richabri ! :)

Yeah, I have to say excellently said as well. :)

So true! Ute is a wonderful person and I admire ALL the merchants because I can't make anything! I just wish there was a job somehwere that would let me make Poser pictures all day and get paid for it, LOL!

actually you sell lots of anything cheap ..witness 2 dollar knockoff anythings from Hong Kong. So I figure by slapping on lots of makeup, nailpolish and soft focus filters you should be able to cough up a couple a day. As long as you dont mind a certain skin deep similarity :)

Good thing not all merchants ahve this mentality!

Also if you dont render print quality poster sized images with full raytracing and IBL lights ... you may never realise that some skins have less to them than others.  For full body screen resolution distance shots ..heck you could use a straight shader and probably do just fine.  But the second you try to get closer at 300 DPI renders... you suddenly see all the flaws. 

I guess it goes to show you get what you pay for :)

If you want a toyota or mcdonalds you can have 'em ... I'll continue to be picky :)

oh and incidentally ... not all cars can be mercedes ..but you dont see them all being advertised like they are eh? a little honesty in advertising would be nice, especially for the newer customers who really dont know what they are getting. But I dont think we'll ever see "buy this character! the best in dial spinning and edited merchants resources you'll ever see" lol

Lyrra

OT to the thread --  actually, Toyotas are widely regarded as high-quality, well-made cars.  They are considered to be some of the best in the industry.  They retain their resell value, too.

*"actually you sell lots of anything cheap ..witness 2 dollar knockoff anythings from Hong Kong. So I figure by slapping on lots of makeup, nailpolish and soft focus filters you should be able to cough up a couple a day. As long as you dont mind a certain skin deep similarity :)

Good thing not all merchants ahve this mentality!"

*I'm not sure what your intention was with posting a public dislike for someone or something, but you may be interested in knowing that it only made you look negative, cranky, overly judgemental, and perhaps jealous too.

Quote - I'm not sure what your intention was with posting a public dislike for someone or something, but you may be interested in knowing that it only made you look negative, cranky, overly judgemental, and perhaps jealous too.

You know... it may not have been the intention, but I saw this same logic trotted out and aimed at the people who said 'copyright infringement isn't cool' on the image that was very much that. I can't help but find that incredibly disturbing. Taking issue with certain behaviors happens all the time, as does voicing those objections, and I try not to read into it further personally. Personally, I was appalled that people in the gallery comment thread on the image following the removal of the allegedly infringing image that insisted "people are just jealous". Seriously, what on earth... ? How does that logic track at all?! I will be plenty negative here: that behavior was unquestionably disgusting to me; one doesn't excuse one's friends when they do something inappropriate and blame the people who point out what the inappropriate thing is instead. Read the commentary there if you like, though I don't recommend it unless you have a very strong stomach: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1587992&member I may be relating to wholly unconnected things, and if so, my genuine apologies to conniekat -- but this deeply unsettled me when I saw its previous incarnation and the repetition of that pattern is highly alarming.

Uh oh, kitties are derailing the thread... oh yea, it's been derailed for a while now.... :lol:

Cute little kittens hon!

*'Also if you dont render print quality poster sized images with full raytracing and IBL lights ... you may never realise that some skins have less to them than others.'

Oh I'm sure that you are right and I wouldn't suggest that there isn't a difference between character textures. I've worked with Mia (Mint) for a couple of years so I do know what a quality texture is and what you can do with it.
 
But then it begs the question of what you want to do with the character.  If you're not making renders with the requirements you specified then the appeal of the overall character is what matters most and this is where Ute's talent shines. She just makes appealing characters and in her case I'd say that the quantity has a quality of it's own :)

*'I guess it goes to show you get what you pay for :)'

No one could argue with that :)

• Rick

Lyrra wrotes:
*Also if you dont render print quality poster sized images with full raytracing and IBL lights ... you may never realise that some skins have less to them than others.  For full body screen resolution distance shots ..heck you could use a straight shader and probably do just fine.  But the second you try to get closer at 300 DPI renders... you suddenly see all the flaws.  

*So show me the texture which is perfect...!
Belive me, I own expensive ones and also some from new-commer and special offers. I was just shocked from the awful quality of a few expensive ones done by popular merchants, and I also was just more than happy with some cheap characters from unknowen new vendors.
Most it´s a question of my own knowledge how to handel this "cheap" character in Poser.
Otherwise, I have an expensive character which was perfect in Poser6 but came out in 4 different colors in Poser7....Head, arms, legs and body - all have a color of their own.
It seems you don´t have this character ;-)

I don´t think that the textures are really your probleme. I think you don´t like Syltermermaid as person, and that was not the point of the thread.
Richard has spoken wise words here!!

*'Personally, I was appalled that people in the gallery comment thread on the image following the removal of the allegedly infringing image that insisted "people are just jealous". Seriously, what on earth... ? How does that logic track at all?! '

I haven't been viewing the galleries lately so I don't know what the issue in question there is all about. The reason I jumped into this thread though is that I think a fair amount of the criticisms directed against Ute's prolific output do have an element of jealousy at their root.

I mean, if her characters were not selling so well - who would bother commenting at all?

• Rick

Other than a factual comment here and there I've kept out of this thread.  That said, I do think it's time to remind everyone that this is not the place to air grievances against individual members, whoever and whatever they are.  

Please keep things civil and don't let it descend into a brawl.

Jealous? of what exactly? I bowed out of the character marketplace years ago when it became obvious that it would be flooded with resource based characters. And over the last five years I've been right.

cranky and judgemental ..well you got me there. lol  But I think everyone judges things to some extent right? its human nature

But if you tell me because I'm a merchant I can't have an opinion about other merchants products? Or I can't, in reasonable terms, make that opinion known?  I dont recall signing away that particular right.

I think its important that the customers know what they are buying, and understand the differences in quality and originality. I find it shameful that some merchants focus more on pumping out the quantity and less about improving their work. At that point you stop being an artist and start being a photocopier. If you arent going to seriously work at what you are doing and make an effort to make every product better than the last one .. please stop!

I'd like to hope that if Syltermermaid reads this post she thinks a little about stretching herself, doing something a little harder, a little different.  Heck I'd like anyone reading this post to think about that.

And since Arcadia is hinting .. I think we should leave this thread to die a natural death lol

PS my ex had a bengal named Simba .. biggest scaredy cat I ever did see ..but wonderful with babies.

Lyrra

I would be happy if I could figure out how to make one character!

How could things get uncivil with the cute pictures of Nala & Simba to look at :)

Quote - Other than a factual comment here and there I've kept out of this thread.  That said, I do think it's time to remind everyone that this is not the place to air grievances against individual members, whoever and whatever they are.  

Please keep things civil and don't let it descend into a brawl.

Where is your cat picture!?! 

Honestly, Rich... knowing enough about the work of the people who make characters who have posted in this thread? They don't do the same style and never have, so I don't think that's at issue. Lyrra, for example, I don't think has ever made a character set. I've seen a lot of people who aren't vendors comment on the quality (or lack thereof) of work in the marketplace (this one and others). I don't see people reading into their views in the same way -- and I don't think it's any different for most vendors. I do see vendors taking an interest in the quality of work that is around them, though, and also in the ethics of fellow vendors. After all, when one of us pulls a stupid (innocently or otherwise), it's going to have some measure of impact on the rest of us. How many threads have appeared about "no properly ethnic V4 characters" or "no realistic makeups for V4" or "all V4s are nothing but slapped together resources and nothing original at all" or other similar vast, sweeping arguments that slam all character creators as a group? When this is not true of all character creators, there's definitely going to be an interest taken in the people who are doing any of the above. Sooner or later, people just stop looking around, because they see these comments so often that they'll believe them to be universally true. (And plenty of those comments have come from people who are defending Syltermermaid, it should be noted.) It's also been said in this very thread that there is such a glut of product on the market that people don't want to sort through them to look for themselves. Who is creating the glut, the people who produce a set a month, or the ones who produce a set a day? There are plenty of valid reasons for other vendors to take an interest in a thread like this, or have an opinion about the way someone does things, other than 'I want to be just like [whoever]!' or 'I wish I made that much money!' because... let's face it, even towards the top end of the scale, none of us are exactly lighting our cigarettes with $100 bills. You have a very valid point: people will buy what appeals to them and best suits their needs. Personally? I'm just fine with that. I have absolutely -no- issue that people love her stuff and buy it often; if it's what they like, it is absolutely what they should buy and no one should tell them to do any different. It's their money, right? The beginning and the end of my input on the success of any other vendor is: "Do I buy their stuff?" and the answer is a yes or no, and I vote with my dollars like everybody else. edit: drifterlee? Once I get out from the work pile I'm buried under, I'll be happy to help you put one together for yourself if you'd like. grin It's not as scary as it sounds.

*'I would be happy if I could figure out how to make one character!'

So do I Sherrie but I don;t have the patience for the texturing and I couldn't dial up a decent face morph to save my life either. Like most guys - I can make some killer body morphs though :)

That's why I'm glad there are so many other talented individuals who go through the trouble for us :)

• Rick

*'It's also been said in this very thread that there is such a glut of product on the market that people don't want to sort through them to look for themselves. Who is creating the glut, the people who produce a set a month, or the ones who produce a set a day?'

That's fair enough and I would even agree about there being a glut of V4 character sets in the MP but whenever I look through the pages of the What's Hot section it's mostly filled with just those sets. People can't seem to get enough of them. My thought though is that certain people buy certain characters from the vendors they favor and that's what makes the Poser world go round and why there are so many character sets of diferent descriptions in the MP. In other words, I think it has less to do with the technical quality of the sets then it has to do with the overall appeal of the characters themselves.

Personally I think you're all bonkers - me too! Who else outside the cloistered lunacy of Poser would ever need so many characters in the first place :) lol :)

• Rick

Quote - I think it has less to do with the technical quality of the sets then it has to do with the overall appeal of the characters themselves.

Not so sure about that, really -- more like 'people buy what fits their needs'. It's similar, not quite the same, but that is a nitpick. Most people do this for enjoyment from what I can tell, not print work. That's definitely going to change the dynamic to some extent. And here, have a whole mess of cat pictures: http://pics.livejournal.com/surreality/gallery/000125za

Sam, Apollo looks just like my 16 year old Oreo cat!!!! Exactly!!!

My MAN! :laugh:

Quote - Hey, thanks for that information, Richard.  :-) I didn't realize there was no support for Deep Paint.  I will cross it off my list of things I want but can't afford. LOL. 

In early December I bought the Right Hemisphere Entertainment bundle at DAZ.  This included Deep Paint 3D, Deep UV,  and Deep Exploration for just under three hundred dollars.  The serials DAZ gave me were already issued to somebody else and I could not register my programs with Right Hemisphere.  DAZ pretty much ignored my support requests and emails.  I was also in contact with Right Hemisphere support via their website.  After a month of trying to get DAZ to give me new serials, Right Hemisphere stepped up and issued them to me themselves.  The serials listed on my account page at DAZ are still the ones that belong to somebody else.

What Adorable Kitties!!!!!!!
And, wow, they dopn't have to be high end quality to be very likeable. Well, I'll be darned!

Most feral cats were once pets that got lost or people dumped. We have lots down at the horse barn, and they are all cute. My new kitten Dolly's parents are feral cats, but she makes a perfect housecat. She watches football with my husband every night. Really watches the TV! Very funny! PS. Nice ball of fur. We have an orange Persian mix named Fluff that is a real bundle of fur!

'Also, if your product or scene is so detailed and hi-rez that it crashes my high-end PC, then I am going to be unhappy. Daz's Bar Italia is an example'

drifterlee,

If you're unhappy with Bar Italia, I'll personally fix you up with a refund from DAZ - even if it's beyond the 30-day money-back period. I don't like to hear that people can't use my products, or aren't 100% satisfied with something they paid me money for..

Bar Italia is very detailed, because that's the nature of a bar - it's filled with all sorts of objects - and the refraction on glasses is one of the 'heaviest' things to render. My products are always as low-poly as possible without sacrificing quality, but of course, it depends on your machine specs, and loading a fully-stocked environment will be resource-intensive.

Let me know if you want a refund and I'll gladly speak to DAZ about it.

mac

PS I'm sure you already know this, but my interiors almost always include the lighting, and the walls can all be made invisible.