I have what seems to me an issue with Vue 7 but e-on told me that it was normal, I'm not so sure about that and if it is then I don't know how to deal with it....

I am posting a screen shot to illustrate what I mean. It's a shot of the exact same thing in Vue 6 and Vue 7, it was taken while clicked on the very same tree.

So, when I click on an object in V 7 it is not showing me the actual place my object is, instead it shows it much closer so this makes it quite impossible to place things as I never know where I am in the scene. I did not have this with V 6 so I don't understand why it is doing it with V 7. E-on says that it is normal but then I don't understand how I can build my scene and e-on does not want to answer this question, I contacted them 4 times with no answer... so I'm kinda stuck and unable to work with V 7. 
Is this really normal and if so then how do you deal with it? 

Thank you so much for your help, I really don't know what to do about this.
Gwenolye 

Why not switch to the 4-way view so that you can use the top view to see where the object is in the scene.

If the split views a re too small, it isn't that time intensive to switch the big single view between Main and Top for positioning purposes.

 Thanks for you reply.

I actually do work from the 4 views, it's just that no matter which window I move the object from I rely big time on my main view window when I place an object, I am looking at it with every move I make to see where things go, that's just how I put thing together. 

But does it look this way for you too? If this is normal then I guess I am going to have to work very differently. I'm not too happy about that, I got into habits... I don't get why they changed this detail.

So it seems your tree in Vue7 is closer than in Vue6, am I right? I think it is just because the tree is selected it appears closer, notion of distance is cancelled as long as the tree is selected.
Just to be sure, check in the numerics tab the location of the camera, and the location of the tree. I think nothing has moved in your scene, it's just a visual thing. Ig the tree is not selected, does it look the same as in Vue6?

 Salut Bruno,

Yes, you are right. In the screen shot I am doing the exact same thing, simply selecting what I want to place. In V 6 it always shows me exactly where it is as I move it, how much of it is behind something else or whatever, in V 7 it just floats there much closer than it actually is. As you can see in  the screen shot it appears to be next to the gypsy house when actually, as you see in V 6 it is much farther. 

If not selected it will then look the same than in V 6, it's only while it is selected that I can't see where it actually is, it doesn't even show how far in the ground it is, it is just floating so I have no idea where I am putting it which completely disturbs the way I compose because it is as I move things that I see where I want them.

Does this make more sense?

One more thing.... why is the notion of distance cancelled while an object is selected? It didn't do this in V 6.

Realm_Of_Illusion, You are absolutely right, I would classify it as a bug. I reproduced it with a simpler example - see attached image. I have a pyramid behind a cylinder. When I select the pyramid in V6 (left) I cannot see any red lines of the pyramid behind the cylinder. This is correct -  the part of lines that is behind the cylinder should not be seen. When I select the pyramid in V7 complete, the lines of the WHOLE pyramid are visible, even those parts that should be hidden by the cylinder. As you said, this is only concerning the display of the lines of the selected object. when its de-selected the display is correct and the chunk of the pyramid behind the cylinder is not seen. I would suggest that you recreate this simple example and send it to e-on again. Yes, it is possible to work around it by looking at different windows but you shouldnt have to. I'm hoping they just didnt understand what your problem is and now they will forward it to the programers to be fixed. Please would you let us know what they said? I have submited so far nearly 15 bugs of which they only fixed about 3... I'm a bit busy this week, but unless e-on suddenly solves it all, I'll put the whole list and their responses here too. Good luck

PS - the fact that you think it's closer is just an illusion because it isnt hidden by what is in front of it.
Its position is perfectly fine, just hard to work with like that.

 Thank you so much for doing this test. Yap that's it! So it is a bug! I sent them the same screen shot that I posted here and still they said it was normal, made me wonder if they actually looked at it. I am so glad you came up with this, I'll try it and sent it again.

It would be really hard for me to work around this, actually kind of impossible because I place so many things manually, toward the end of a scene I could never tell where what I want to move is. It is very frustrating!

Do you know someone I could get in touch with at e-on? The person who told me it was normal is just not very helpful, he did mention that he was going to forward my message to the development team but no one has gotten in touch with me, it's been about 3 weeks. I posted 4 more times to get some news and help but never got an answer.

Thanks a lot for you help and doing this test.

From my experience the process is that  Lee Randall(sp?) screens the bug reports. She tries to reproduce them and if she manages and she understands what the problem is she forwards it to the programers.
She's quite nice, mostly answers within a day. I had several times that her reply indicated that she didnt pay attention or just didnt understand, but I'm quite persistent and I explain it again or just insist that it is a bug...
I had one or two bugs they claim they cant reproduce (they are not consistent for me either, but they happen) but all the rest they admitted were bugs. As for fixing them....dont get me started:)

Please do persevere with your bug report. We paid for a working program, they should fix it.

There is a phone number on their site for all inquiries, sometimes you need need to wait and sometimes you need to leave a message, but they do come back quite quickly. (I think it's Lee who answers the phones too. I never managed to get any 'higher' than that).

 Thanks a lot Art, I will do your example and send it again.

This is my first bug issue in the 2 years I've been working with Vue so I'm not broken in yet, ha ha ha! It's no fun, I don't like it at all especially that I don't do big landscapes with lots of eco so this little bug comes up with every move I make... I don't really have a way around it, it drives me crazy. 

I'm surprised that no one else noticed this, i looked in the forum before posting and at C3D too but didn't see anything. Can a bug be in one computer and not an other? I really know nothing about bugs!

Nice to hear that Lee is a nice person I'd been having doubts because she's been ignoring me so I didn't know where to turn anymore.

So thanks a lot for your help and I'll keep you posted.

Well, I should thank you too - I did notice something wasnt right, but it didnt click in my brain what it was, till you mentioned it:)
I didnt have problems with v6 either. Just since I upgraded.  I find it very frustrating. I love Vue, but v7complete is a  disappointment.

I wonder if it is the same in v7 infinite too, maybe someone with infinite can check.

(PS I'm not Art for 'Arthur'. Pearl is closer  - my name is Pnina which is Hebrew for pearl.)

 Well hello Pnina, forgive me for calling you the wrong name... oops.

Yes, me too I love Vue, I was with Vue 6 Pro before Complete and I love it, just wished for the eco paint because it looked so cool and that was my major reason to upgrade plus there were some really cool things at C3D coming out only for V 7.

Anyway, V 7 is definitely a disappointment for me too, an expensive one! I wondered too about Infinite. Before reporting my issue I checked tutorials of V 7 to see if I could see the same thing. I wasn't sure what was happening especially after being told it was normal, it just didn't make sense to me. It's gotten me off on the wrong foot with V 7 so I'm still on V 6, never mind for the eco paint. I can't work with this bug that's why I finely posted here to see how you guys were dealing with it since it was supposed to be normal. Thanks to you and your test now I know it's not normal so I am going to do something about it.

If an Infinite person read this can you tell us if this is happening for you too?

Thanks for all your help :)

A workaround for this problem is to go into the options and turn off 'Show red wireframe on selected objects'. If you do that, the selected object is highlighted in red but with no wires, and is hidden behind objects in front just as it is when not selected.

This option is in Display options tab, View options section.

Edit: this is in 7 Infinite. I don't know if this option is available in Complete.

 Thanks a lot Steven. I just looked but no, I do not have this option in Complete :(

Attached Link: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_7_complete/?page=19

Personally, I don't think this can be classified as a bug. It's just the way it works. In certain situations it can be very useful to determine where the object is, even if it's behind other objects. In other situations, it can be very confusing. The big problem is that Complete doesn't have a way to turn this off, as Infinite has. In Infinite, I turn off or on the red wireframe depending on what I want to see and so I don't have your problem.

I was now checking if this is announced in the comparison and indeed it is. See in the link, compare Complete with Infinite and see the point "Selected objects appear with a red wireframe", in the section "Real Time preview". Of course, it doesn't say "behind objects"... ;-)

That's why the PLE is good, to see this kind of things in practice. Did you try the PLE before making the purchase decision?

1. when I bought v7 there were no PLE's.  The PLE for complete didnt appear till months after the release, so even if I wanted to, I couldnt try it.
2. the fact that you can turn the wire display on/off doesnt mean it will be visible on top of objects in front. See the apearence in v6 in the image I attached. There is a wire frame but with hidden parts.
3. The comparison chart says for the item "Selection wireframe always appears on top of other objects that are in front"  : optional for v6 and v7infinit; a 'dot' for v7complete which means 'no'.
   so I would say that implies it is not optional to turn wire on/off; the display of the wire should be without the hidden parts behind objects in front of it.
4. The comparison list isnt reliable. I have seen things I thopught will not exist but they do (I'm not going to say what, maybe I misunderstood, maybe they left it by mistake
   I've seen things that were not mentioned as taken out but they did. eg - I cant change the size of the rendered image in the render window as I could in v6i. 

If I was you realm_of_ilusion, I would still report it again.

 Thanks Rutra. I just checked the comparative chart and included Vue 6 too to see the difference with it as well. For "Select objects appear with a red wireframe" V 6 Pro and Complete say the exact same thing but I never had it this way in V 6 as you can see in the screen shot I posted.

It also says "Selection wireframe always appears on top of other objects that are in front" which is optional in Infinite, this seems to describe my issue yet it never acted this way in V 6. Could it be V 6 that was not working the 'normal' way? 

I've been with Vue 6 Pro for 2 years, I never thought something like this could happen so I didn't see any reason to try anything, I was simply upgrading the way I had when I went from Easel to Studio Pro and I chose Complete due to the price and the fact that since I wanted the eco paint it was actually the same cost as getting V 7 Pro and buying the eco paint module. 

So this still remains a mystery to me....

 Actually the comparison chart does have the same answer for V 6 with "Selection wireframe always appears on top..." yet V 6 never behaved this way.

I will contact e-on again to be clarified on all this because I really can't work this way, it makes it impossible.

Quote -

1. The comparison chart says for the item "Selection wireframe always appears on top of other objects that are in front"  : optional for v6 and v7infinit; a 'dot' for v7complete which means 'no'.
   so I would say that implies it is not optional to turn wire on/off; the display of the wire should be without the hidden parts behind objects in front of it.

I'll give credit where its due - I didnt pay enough attention when I posted this point in the morning, a 'dot' means v7 complete does have this feature, ie it will display the wireframe on top  of objects in front. Sorry -e-on is right, v7C does as it says in the description.
But WHY would they chose to do it this way?  It may be nice to have the option to turn this on or off, as it is in v6 and v7inf, but 'off' is the default in V6i (what is the default in v7i?) which means e-on thought it will be the more useful/more used  option. In that case, if they are only allowing one option in complete , how come it isnt the one that  is the more useful one (and the one people are used to)? If you had to chose only one of the 2 options which would you chose a wire with hidden parts behind objects or with a complete wire? I would chose 'hidden parts'. It helps depth perception a lot.

 Thanks Pnina but look at the comparative chart again, V 6 Pro and V 7 Complete say the exact same thing about this, they both have a dot but my V 6 Pro never did this, isn't this weird?

By the way, I wrote to e-on again with an other example like the one you did, hopefully I'll have an answer tomorrow....

...and that is a very bad thing because your work is always so wonderful.
I've noticed the same problem since getting Complete, for me it's mainly effected me when trying to place multiple terrains. I will play with it a bit when I get home tonight, I'm wondering if the display type (wireframe, shaded, etc) would make any difference?

 No, the display type makes no difference, I've tried it already. 

As Bruno said the notion of distance is cancelled in V 7 and it doesn't even show if any part of my object is in the ground.

But since the comparative chart says that it should be the same with V 6 and V 7 I really don't get it....

Quote -  Thanks Pnina but look at the comparative chart again, V 6 Pro and V 7 Complete say the exact same thing about this, they both have a dot but my V 6 Pro never did this, isn't this weird?

You're so right! I didnt look at v6pro in the comparison list because I upgraded from inf. You are even more justified in your bug report. It should work the same in v7c as in v6Pro..Interesting...now I'm really curious what they will say.

 The funny part is that from what the comparison chart says then it is my V 6 that had a bug because it didn't follow this rule!
I can't wait to hear what they are going to say but most of all I can't wait to get it resolved! I looked into V 7 Infinite but it looks like you can only sidegrade from previous Infinite only... 

Quote - "now I'm really curious what they will say."

They could say it was a bug in Vue 6 and they fixed it in Vue 7... :-)

Oh, we cross posted with the same idea... :-)

 Well I like that bug, I want it back, now! ha ha ha!
Thanks Rutra and wouldn't that be interesting if I have been working with a bugged software all this time and never knew it! 

Quote - Quote - "now I'm really curious what they will say."

They could say it was a bug in Vue 6 and they fixed it in Vue 7... :-)

Ha Ha -wouldnt surprise me at all:)
Artur, if you had to chose, you could have hidden lines whenever the wireframe is displayed, or have the complete wireframe, which would you like? (I mean if you could tell the e-on which one to chose, but it wasnt a user option once it was decided)

 I would want it the way it is for me on V 6 Pro. Because of how I work, the way it is on V 7 does not make any sense at all, I don't understand what it is for, what the advantage is?

I think that options like this were cut out of Complete as a marketing ploy to show more differences between 7i and 7c. If you look at the comparison, most of the differences which really matter are those which are going to be important to a production studio, not to most 'ordinary' users. I've got the feeling that when they'd done that, they sat back and realised that there weren't really many differences between the versions.

So how to justify the cost differential? Make a number of minor changes which won't affect many people but which look good on a comparison chart. Unfortunately one of those changes was one which you find very annoying, and I can see why.

If I had to choose, I would prefer the old behavior too. But the wireframe visible behind objects exists as an option in other apps too. For example, 3DS Max, a professional tool, also has it as an option. So, there must be some use for it... :-)
I know I already had some use for it in the past, more than once, but I can't remember the exact situation.

 Maybe to work on the material and see the result? I really don't know. 

And I guess they do need to make choices for the difference between versions of course, the mystery remains that V 6 was set up to do something that it didn't do with me so now it's a really big surprise! 

If it was a mistake with my copy I am really happy about it because I would have never found my style otherwise, maybe I would have just gotten into big landscapes, something I've never done. So if it was a bug for me it was a really good one, how about that! 

I'm not saying it shouldnt exist or that it doesnt have uses. I probably would like to have the option to turn it on or off. I think it is a bit like having the front objects transparent, so it could, for example, help in aligning the back object to the edge of the front object without changing the view window.
But if they have to give the 'artist-line' users only one of the options, it should be the one with hidden lines. Pros (a) should have better abstract  depth perception so a few extra lines shouldnt affect them
(b) may need precise positioning of something behind and not have the time to switch windows all the time.
I think they just did everything in a terrible rush and therefor bugs and non-sensible decisions crept in. And a lot of them.

 It seems to me that with this not being optional on V 7 Complete they were more focusing on the eco system and the people who do large scenes. The thing is that this is supposed to be the 'artist' version, well, in my opinion artists would work on details a lot but from my experience this does not allow details, not the detail of placement anyway. So it is a weird choice not to make this optional when this version is focusing on creative people so they say.

Quote - I think they just did everything in a terrible rush and therefor bugs and non-sensible decisions crept in. And a lot of them.

Just because you don't agree with their decisions, doesn't mean they did everything 'in a terrible rush.' Of course you are welcome to your opinion.

My opinion, is they make decisions like this one for a reason, and IMO, the preferred OGL display is the current one: the red-outlined display. 

Keep in mind, it does not 'show it much closer,' as it maintains it's correct perspective in the scene. If you are editing a scene with many objects partially or mostly hidden, this feature is invaluable.

Frankly, I never really cared one way or another about whether a wireframe is 'behind' or 'in front.' Never had an issue as I, like others here have mentioned, tend to use the three views more than the camera for positioning. Perhaps it's my training in perspective drawing, but I have no problems with the current implementation. In fact, highlighting the object in red wireframe makes it simple to see what I'm working on better.

I suppose what is helpful to one is a hindrance to another. Perhaps if discussed directly with e-on support in a reasonable manner, they will implement both preview techniques in the Preferences. I doubt threatening them with more forum threads or claiming they did everything in a terrible rush would endear them to rapidly help out. Though, who knows?

I was a bit surprised you found it necessary to defend e-on from me this time - Did you read the whole thread? I made an effort to mention everything I could in their favor :) I said they were quick in their initial responses...I admitted I made a mistake in interpreting the comparison list...I adviced the OP to contact them again because they may not understood what her problem was...I'm being more than fair to them. Short of blindly being their mouth-piece, I dont think it is possible to be more considerate.

"

Quote - I think they just did everything in a terrible rush and therefor bugs and non-sensible decisions crept in. And a lot of them.

Just because you don't agree with their decisions, doesn't mean they did everything 'in a terrible rush.'  "

The specific context of this statement was the fact that the comparison list states that v7Comp AND v6pro behave the same way with respect to wire display when there is an object in front. Reality says - it isnt. So something went wrong during the decision making and list writing.
(I have quite a few additional similar examples of inconsistent implementation. )
This combined with the fact that they are soooo slow in doing something about the reported and acknowledged bugs led me to think they must have been in a rush. Are you saying they make mistakes like that after careful consideration, no time pressure? Are you sure you are advocating   for them ?

"Of course you are welcome to your opinion. "
Really? I got your approval? omg you make me  so happy...

"My opinion, is they make decisions like this one for a reason, and IMO, the preferred OGL display is the current one: the red-outlined display. "

"Keep in mind, it does not 'show it much closer,' as it maintains it's correct perspective in the scene."
That was mentioned several times in the thread. no one disputes it. But if the hidden parts of the wire arnt hidden it is harder to perceive spatial relations. Well known phenomenon - every artist knows it. Artists are taught to put items behind each other because the hidden parts enhance depth perception.

"If you are editing a scene with many objects partially or mostly hidden, this feature is invaluable.
Frankly, I never really cared one way or another about whether a wireframe is 'behind' or 'in front.' Never had an issue as I, like others here have mentioned, tend to use the three views more than the camera for positioning. Perhaps it's my training in perspective drawing, but I have no problems with the current implementation. In fact, highlighting the object in red wireframe makes it simple to see what I'm working on better."

Good for you. It is not a natural skill, it is an acquired skill. To tell you the truth - I can cope with it too. I worked a lot with vector display software/hardware with no hidden line possibility.I think the brain gets trained to make use of what's available.
But in a way this is proving my point - professionals can use this 'feature' easily and they find uses for it. For artist they made the wrong decision. Without training it is hard to perceive depths without the hidden lines. Not a valid statistical sample, but everyone in this thread said if they had only one display option they would prefere having hidden lines.

"Perhaps if discussed directly with e-on support in a reasonable manner, they will implement both preview techniques in the Preferences."
Roi did approach them first and waited weeks for a helpful reply. She didnt get it. Maybe they didnt understand what her problem was, but I did in a blink of an eye so why couldnt they? who is the pro here? (In all the bugs I found I worked hard to verify to the best of my ability that it is a bug. I reported to them not to the forum.  I think it was in a 'reasonable manner' Success rate was approx 3/13. Is that a satisfactory  result?) She did approach them again, and I'm positive she was 'reasonable' - we are all awaiting the response, I hope your faith in them is justified.

"I doubt threatening them with more forum threads or claiming they did everything in a terrible rush would endear them to rapidly help out. Though, who knows?"
Chipp, you really disappoint me here. Why is opening a new thread telling vue'er what bugs I found, what was fixed and what wasnt (and what reasons were given) seen by you as a threat?
I have gone out of my way to give e-on ample opportunity to fix the bugs. In the last few weeks I was too busy with other things so I dint even bother them.  There was no progress whatsoever in this time. Not a single fix not even a single update.  I always had my doubts if I should keep my bug reports 'secret', and I'm getting to the conclusion I was wrong in doing so. I owe e-on nothing- I paid for a working product and I didnt get it. I owe the community the knowledge of what I found wrong. They are my partners in this situation, maybe I can save them a bit of time and frustration.
So you say a new thread is a threat - do you think I will include lies in it? has anything in my posts lead you to believe I will include anything but the facts? has anything led you to think I am doing this because I hate vue? because I want  to inflict harm on e-on?
I should hope not. But if it is only the true facts of my bug reports, do you think that telling the truth is a threat? would the truth harm them? because if so it isnt me who is threatening. its their own actions.

Oh - and endearing myself on them - not really anywhere in my list of objectives. Getting a rapid response - I'm not getting this whether I bug them or leave them alone, approach them directly or post publicly. Sigh...

Pninia. I'm just presenting my own opinion here. I am sorry if it offended you. It should be OK for dissenting opinions, discussed in a reasonable manner, to be present on this forum.

While I was not consulted by e-on when they made this 'red-wireframe' decision, I am pointing out a potential reason why they might think it preferable.

Quote - Chipp, you really disappoint me here. Why is opening a new thread telling vue'er what bugs I found, what was fixed and what wasnt (and what reasons were given) seen by you as a threat?

Certainly you understand it's no threat to me. My point is something my mother told me many years ago: You get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Perhaps asking for help regarding your bugs, here in the forum, is potentially of value for you-- as there may be some who can and  are willing to help with workarounds, or explanations.

That said, it doesn't help the disucssion for you to get emotional  whenever anyone says something contrary to your point of view. 

 I never got a response from e-on with my post last Thursday.... I'll be pretty busy for a couple of weeks but I'll try again and keep you posted. 

Thank you so much for all your support :)
Gwenolye 

 Update: 

I just got an answer yesterday from Vivien at e-on, a very nice answer with 2 possibilities: Complete will have an update where my issue will be resolved by giving the choice to switch off this perspective thing giving me such troubles. I can wait for this update or if I'd like she offered to buy Complete back and for me to get Infinite, that was such a nice gesture.

Don't know yet what I am going to do.... it's an other financial investment to get Infinite and with the kind of scenes I do I am going to need to explore to see if it would be a big advantage, I am thinking that it might to refine my atmospheres, let me know if you have a feedback on this.

Anyway, I've got my answer and I am very satisfied, it's okay that it took a long time, the main thing was to hear back and I have with some very good news so all is well :) I was not mad anyway, just a bit frustrated and feeling powerless but I totally understand that they have much to do with all the new products.

And thanks a lot for all your support as well :)

So if anyone else was bothered by this perspective thing as I was an update is on the way.
Gwenolye

This problem has been fixed in v7.4 complete.  the option 'Show selection wireframe on top' is available, and when you un-tick it hidden objects are actually hidden. (And if you want the wireframe -tick the option). Everyone should be happy. Hurray for e-on!