Quote - Lets see .... I use Poser 2010, DS3A, and Carrara now, and have DS4, Autofit, and the morph pack. My guess is I'll keep doing what I'm dong now, use the one that works best for what I want to do.

I still don't understand the mentality that if you use one, you have to give up the other. Both Poser and DS have their strengths and weaknesses. The Poser community has been wanting better rigging for years, DAZ gives it to us, and now we have the lynch mobs out - how dare they try to make a better figure.

Besides, I'm really not very worried, Baggins Bills reply tells the story without saying anything. Even if Poser doesn't support Genesis, I will. Better rigging is a welcome change!

I don't think anyone's against using Genesis. At least I'm not. I'm against not being able to use Genesis in the program of my choice and that's Poser. I mean, if Poser supports it, I'll use it. If not, I won't. How is that a slam against Genesis or wanting a figure with better rigging?

Poser 7 is still my main app. 

I've been trying to put equal to time to learning DS4 and P8.

I'd be interested to peek at the new figures in development for P9.

why do they leave all those magnets on the poser figures?  why not spawn morph targets?
(head scr'ch)

Until D|S will allow me to use a model I make myself for dynamic cloth and get dynamic hair, no deal ;).

Laurie

Quote - Poser 7 is still my main app. 

I've been trying to put equal to time to learning DS4 and P8.

I'd be interested to peek at the new figures in development for P9.

why do they leave all those magnets on the poser figures?  why not spawn morph targets?
(head scr'ch)

A magnet is a few dozen bytes of memory. A morph target is thousands of times larger.

I would rather focus on Antonia, make stuff for her and the underutelized Poser figures. I have recently discovered that making is more fun than buying.

poser sells itself a lil short, imo;  it's a very capable full render engine.  they should try and broaden their marketing beyond just the people figs. more than just an add-in for Vue.

"poser sells itself a lil short, imo;  it's a very capable full render engine.  they should try and broaden their marketing beyond just the people figs. more than just an add-in for Vue."

Honestly there truly is Zero market for poser outside of the poser/Daz niche in which it resides.

As a person who owns and uses "Pro Apps" C4D,Lightwave,Modo I can attest that People
and organizations that use these apps use the for very specific Goals

MODELING:
creating 3D assets for games/ArchVis
that are going be either rendered  in a high end render engine by the creator for a client.
or Delivered  for Deployment by other pros to be used in a Game or a VFX shot in a movie
 production( Iron man, Transformers etc)
or a  Full 3D animated Movie production with All in house
proprietary Character animation Systems( Pixar,BlueSky etc)

ANIMATION Again these pro pipelines are long established and set up for the types of models/ rigsthat are produced and rigged to be Deployed in the aforementioned deliverables
such as CG buildings Vehicles Complete Environments for comping etc
as well as VFX system Like particle and fluid systems and other Dynamic Simulations.

Trust me they truly have no need for Poser/Daz Studio.

Yes we see the occasional "poser sighting"
but this is usually either some Limited in house
department using default figures like P6"James"
for a news broadcast Visualization or a small job that has been Farmed out to a Small business like where they need some animation quickly done but have no need  or budget for some custom figure/animation from  a real VFX studio.

Cheers

Apart from hobby use and creating content, I use Poser for human scales in archviz renders. While better rigging will mean more realistic figures, in archviz the main focus is not the humans/animals/plants/cars/etc, but the buildings. Everything else is a prop, there to complement and sell the concept, not to compete with Pixar or Blur Studios or etc in realism.

In this niche, Poser is quite well suited, as heavy polygon count taking a hit on render times is almost irrelevant (as most archviz are still renders), and quick morphs to fix american-rugby-shoulders-in-figures again work pretty well for stills.

Apart from cars and plants, I create my own content, so, at least in my case, I work with Poser because I like how it works, and does not need a rocket science degree to understand.

However, I agree with wolf359, for that sort of pro work, Poser is not the best choice to work with.

But then, those type of people build their own GUIs, plugins, assets, have internal development teams and so on, that they could probably use Poser if they really wanted to. They obviously would not use Poser's content as is, simply because there are so many things already done with Poser that it is very easily spotted, as wolf359 says, in tv broadcasts and pretty much everywhere in internetdom.

Would Poser benefit from better rigging? Sure it would. Tremendously. More nodes? Of course.  Just imagine what bagginsbill could come up with if some new nodes. Does that means Poser sucks as it is right now? Not by a long shot. At least, not for me.

I'd say that if there was any migration jitters, it would not be from Poser to Daz Studio, but rather from Poser to Messiah Studio.

Not yet.

There's a mushy undefined look to the Genesis images I've seen. Maybe the morph packs fix that, but I haven't looked too closely.

That doesn't mean that there won't be a reason to switch a few years from now after the new figures have been around for a while and improved.

And for anyone still believing the Myth that poser offers great Figures at a Low cost compared to the cost of paying your in house modelor/ rigger to create their own
Please realize that there is already very low cost options to get humanoids pre-rigged for every Major Pro Character application being sold by companies like DOSCH DESIGNS

often you get as many as 30 Different READY TO USE rigged figures for less that the cost of buying
poser and you wont need any "transfer plugins"
as you would need to get them out of poser in a usable condition.

Cheers

Quote - No Genesis is what V4, etc was suppose to be. And while the base of D/S is free not all the modules that will bring it even close to function like poser does out of the box is not and even makes D/S more expensive than poser in some ways. I also found D/S does not play well with Vue infinite and Xstream which are my work horse apps.

I will stick with poser even if it means using older figures and as many others have said for Daz to make Genesis/V5 only fundtion in D/S is a big risk for them. But I feel this will not be the case and that Genesis will be funtional in newer version of Poser or at least updates for present poser versions above.

Have to agree with Paganartist here. If Poser 9 does not support Genesis, then most Poser users won't stop using Poser, but they would ignore Genesis. I, for one, find DS4 clunky and difficult to use. I'm not going to give up Poser to use a figure that looks to be marginally better, but not stunningly better, than V4.

Quote - "poser sells itself a lil short, imo;  it's a very capable full render engine.  they should try and broaden their marketing beyond just the people figs. more than just an add-in for Vue."

Honestly there truly is Zero market for poser outside of the poser/Daz niche in which it resides.

As a person who owns and uses "Pro Apps" C4D,Lightwave,Modo I can attest that People
and organizations that use these apps use the for very specific Goals

MODELING:
creating 3D assets for games/ArchVis
that are going be either rendered  in a high end render engine by the creator for a client.
or Delivered  for Deployment by other pros to be used in a Game or a VFX shot in a movie
 production( Iron man, Transformers etc)
or a  Full 3D animated Movie production with All in house
proprietary Character animation Systems( Pixar,BlueSky etc)

ANIMATION Again these pro pipelines are long established and set up for the types of models/ rigsthat are produced and rigged to be Deployed in the aforementioned deliverables
such as CG buildings Vehicles Complete Environments for comping etc
as well as VFX system Like particle and fluid systems and other Dynamic Simulations.

Trust me they truly have no need for Poser/Daz Studio.

Yes we see the occasional "poser sighting"
but this is usually either some Limited in house
department using default figures like P6"James"
for a news broadcast Visualization or a small job that has been Farmed out to a Small business like where they need some animation quickly done but have no need  or budget for some custom figure/animation from  a real VFX studio.

Cheers

Tell that to SM and especially DAZ.... they still think that all the pros need Poser or DS. Daz is putting a lot of money and manpower into trying to reach professionals in all kinds of businesses. They still think that people who have been using 3DS, Cinema and so on for years will be pursuaded to switch to DS. SM is still trying it with Poser Pro, allthough they have toned down a lot.  I recall who they proudly announced with the first PPro release thay they now would reach many pro's and finally brigde the gap between high end and poser. They spent quite some effort and money to reach the high end user. I guess by now they've realized that the people who bought PPro are they same people that have been buying poser for ages or showed interest in it before Pro even was around. They hardly reached anyone new and the scores of new users never came.

I really don't think that neither SM nor DAZ realized how embedded 3DS, Maya or Cinema are in certain professions and businesses. It's strange, I think they should know better, after all they don't create the newest Poser figures or DAZ figures with any of the low end applications themselves. Even though DAZ at some point tried to make customers believe that they made one or more of the mill figures with hexagon......

After all is said and done and tried, I think even DAZ will have to admit that the primary market for their applications and content as well is the low end user. Shame that so much manpower, money and effort is put into trying to do something we all know cannot be done. I guess even companies can do some whishful thinking :-)

Attached Link: http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3dsmax-american-football/484798

As long as there are markets, like Turbosquid, selling simple models such as a football for $90, there's no reason not to think that DAZ cannot break into that market with lower cost 3D products.

Many a movie has used Poser models for previsualization. In the end, they're going to go with their own models for the finished product. That doesn't mean a low-budget movie wouldn't use Poser models. I forget the name of the show, but there was an X-rated one on the Playboy channel using Michael and Victoria for their main characters. Poser was used for the Green Arrow flash videos for Smallville.

Just because Poser and DS are hobbyist programs now doesn't mean their slow improvements won't expand to new future markets.

Attached Link: http://developer.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/gameready?cat=1174

I agree, but there's the problem....  DAZ is not offering lower cost 3D content to that market at all. Turbosquid is catering to game modelers and does not control what vendors ask, it's a bad example. DAZ opened a special store section catering at game designers about a year ago.  Check the prices, that is not low cost at all. I've been an indie game designer for over 10 years, retired about a year ago. I've worked on some 3D games and hired someone to do my 3D (medieval) models. He created a number of custom made models for less then DAZ is offering these models for. There are numerous stores providing game designers with quality models (rigged and pre-animated) that cost much less then what DAZ is asking.

DAZ is trying to gain access to a new market, but they don't offer anything new at all, on the contrary. The way DAZ is handling this, they will not break into this market at all. The only customers they get are the same people that always have been buying there items, they just found a way to milk the same cow a bit more.

Second problem is lack of content..... while they've opened this store section a year ago, they've only managed to offer 8 products. DAZ releases more content then that for DS/Poser in a week. They're sending a clear message to the game developers..... we're not really interested in your business.

Before you mention, I know there's the DAZ game developer license for DAZ originals, but that has it's issues as well. Adding on to that is of you want to use other non DAZ original content, you have to buy a license from the vendor.

Last problem (for now) is that in order to get your model (bought under the license, not the game ready ones) into a game engine, you have to use DS and animate, if you don't want to do all the rigging and animating all over again. Now were back to the main issue, the game world prefers using their standard equipment and DS sure isn't one of those.

Again, DAZ has shot themselves in the foot with the way they have gone about it. The want to impose their workflow on people that use serious tools or try to break into a market, but offering nothing exciting at all...... Do you really think that the game world is waiting for DS and 8 ready to use models? Think again.... if I had to create a game again, I would know where to spent the money DAZ is asking and it sure isn't at DAZ.

Aeilkema is quite correct  that Daz's  Myopic Dream of seeing their Vic/Mik products being used for FINAL deliverables  in a pro production seems Strangley undisturbed by reality
And that realty is this :
Despite their FBX/ Collada Export from DS
Despite their "decimator polygon reduction plugin and "Game Dev"  tool kit kit for V-chick,
Daz has made ZERO ..repeat ZERO market penetration into pro pipelines in any Signifigant way.
and judging by the latest marketing HYPE they foolishly think that "genesis" will be their ticket to the Pro scene .

Wrong!
Just Aks anyone over at Cg talk who works in a VFX studio About "genesis"

Honestly many here and at Daz are so impressed with the Deformations of the genesis rig because they just dont know any better. yes it is "innovative" for Daz poser tech standards but
Just compare this  BLENDER RIG to what you have seen in Genesis and you quickly realize how vestigial poser/Daz tech truly is.

"As long as there are markets, like Turbosquid, selling simple models such as a football for $90, there's no reason not to think that DAZ cannot break into that market with lower cost 3D products."

Hi That $98 Football from TurboSquid is described as"
"American Football 'Wilson'. This is vray-ready and in high-def. All textures 2K."

This means it is for PRO Studios who have Spent $3500 on AutoDesk max+Yearly Maintanence
and another $1300 On Vray For 3DSMAX.
Probably having just won a bid for a NFL CG Spot Worth tens of thousands of Dollars
That football has to look uber Photo realistic in a closeup shot In Hi definition broadcast.

When Last I looked DAZ was Not Selling "Low Cost" Sport props
 in the $2  "platinum Club "built with  proprietary Vray Shaders ,2K Textures in .MAX Format.
See the Difference??

Cheers

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=167157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=

Honestly, I feel kinda dirty giving money to a company that believes it must protect its users from the sight of nipples on an adult male texture.

I used to be a Daz fan. But they seem to have gotten really weird about things lately.

^wtf?

incidentally, 'mushy and undefined' hits the nail on the head. id also add androgynous - but i think the reason for that lies in the unimesh, and ive been complaining about it for awhile. i understand why its done, but id really rather prefer a completely separate male & female mesh, proportions, rigging, etc.

Eeeeek...that is way creepy. And I agree about the unimesh...I didn't like it since they started with it. I guess when they did the 1st and 2nd gens they figured it was too much work ;).

Laurie

"gens" being to much work sounds about right ;)

Quote - ... id really rather prefer a completely separate male & female mesh, proportions, rigging, etc.

Yeah, the neuter base morph was a terrible idea with respect to doing content.  Really not looking forward to trying to adapt to that if/when DAZ releases a Poserized version.

regarding the OP, nope, for the same reasons Blackhearted already stated.

I don't know how much incompatible V5 will be with Poser, but if I like her I shall rework her to be able to work with Poser. If I don't like her I shall ignore her as I did with V2/V1

Scary, a mans face with woman eyes. :-)

Fuck me, that's a truly frightening image.

In regards to them looking pudgy, here's a render in DS4 in their defense.

http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/index.php/cchd-m300.html

Hmm, the mesh shows some tri`s. Still looks good.

http://www.axyz-design.com/index.php?productCode=BWom0001HD2CS

Really nice quality for a good price.

Quote - Of course , my answer is a big no.

And If Daz know that Genesis figures are going to be compatible with Poser in a near future, that's good, but if not, I think Daz has made a big mistake if they think that the most Poser users are going to ignore their application for a temporal figure, and  the atmosphere that is breathed in some comments, threads ,... leads me to believe that Daz knows it.

Genesis is great, I don't test it, but I think that yes, it is a good product, better thant M4 and V4, yes better, but not incredibly better,and of course does not justify not using Poser anymore

And from the content creator point of view, I don't think thay are going to leave their Poser users only to support a figure, that for sure is going to change in 1 or 2 years.

I tend to agree with Adh3D, but I think a lot depends on Smith Micro and how much they're coasting vs doing state of the art development.  I personally like Poser for their software and Daz for their Characters.

Smith Micro's change of the Content Paradise site was in my opinion, very poor.  It lost creativity and vision. Heck now they even try to sell you a short term download insurance and pretend it is a service when Rosity and Daz and others have it for free! I and others consider this a tax and am annoyed whenever we have to uncheck their extra cost two-year "service" box. This doesn't bode well if it is a signal.

Daz is taking a risk by making characters that are not compatible, but their timing is probably good.  I bought Poser8, but am still using Poser7 as the changes in 8 aren't significant enough yet to make me go through the hassle of loading it. Right now, while I don't want to switch, it is Smith Micro's race to lose.

To be fair to SM, though, Daz's risk is not completely artistic or creative. From what I hear it is almost like they are inserting more hard-line morality in their outlook. Look at the criticism beginning for "Ken and Barbie" characters.  If Daz strikes the proper balance this could be good, but if it goes too far for the artistic community they could be out in the cold.

It is still early in the game. Maybe a completely different third party will arise?

Quote - http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/index.php/cchd-m300.html

Hmm, the mesh shows some tri`s. Still looks good.

http://www.axyz-design.com/index.php?productCode=BWom0001HD2CS

Really nice quality for a good price.

^as much as i have griped about Vicky's base shape over the years, there are very few (if any) models out there anywhere near her price range that even come close to her mesh quality.  even Meta/CL/SM with all their resources could not produce a male or female mesh without serious issues - nor do any of the alternate figures released by third parties come close to the quality, versatility and functionality of the V4 platform (sorry, but its true).

people also seem to forget that the mesh itself is a very small part of the character. i could model a great base mesh - and then what? its just the tip of the iceberg - there is a hell of a lot more work involved in 'poserizing' something than just the mesh/textures, especially when it comes to figures like V4.

most of the turbosquid meshes just have very basic rigging - if they have any rigging at all. no JCMs, no morphs, no expressions, no phonemes, nothing. most also have crappy video game style UV mapping and very poor textures - they just look halfdecent because their promos are rendered in advanced renderers under advanced lighting. in poser they would look like sh*t.

ive seen professional modelers who think they are hot sht look at the Renderosity marketplace and say 'i could make better products than that in my sleep', and watched them try. sure they may be skilled at modeling, level design, etc -- but as soon as they see how much additional work (and knowhow) is involved in 'poserizing' something, rounding out a product, packaging it, testing it, promoting it in the marketplace and providing support for it over its lifespan they fade pretty fcking fast.  its absolutely staggering how much the average poser customer expects from a $5-10 clothing pack these days.

Hi

I have spent quite a bit of time working with DS 4 now and I'm finally trying to get the hang of he interface but I'm not going to switch from Poser.

I've worked with Poser for many years, I know where everything is and don't have to spend half my time trying to find things. 

I still say that Poser is always the least stable software on my computer, that's been true of every version I've had and 8 is no better.  It still freezes and drives me nuts but it's the instability that I'm used to.

I still like and use the Jessi and James characters.

They always looked more natural to me.

They seem easier to create characters out of and of course all my hand made textures are for them, I don't want to start all over again.

Mike 

"most of the turbosquid meshes just have very basic rigging - if they have any rigging at all. no JCMs, no morphs, no expressions, no phonemes, nothing. most also have crappy video game style UV mapping and very poor textures - they just look halfdecent because their promos are rendered in advanced renderers under advanced lighting. in poser they would look like sht."*

That is because their  intended  Delivery platform is a game engine
all of that" JCMs,  morphs,  expressions,  phonemes"  are not needed and would make the meshes too heavy for realtime animation in a Game.

But it is ironic that when I take a so called premium poser  Figure Like V4/M4 Apollo Max and render it in Vray or maxwell they look truly AWFUL!!!
Every bad topological Mistake Shows up

Sort of like the Difference between the flattering Lighting and Alcohol haze in a nightclub/bar( poser firefly DAZ "3D delight")
and the harsh reality of what the people really look like at 9 am Saturday morning in broad daylight.

This is true of not just the figures/Creatures/animals but most poser  prop content particularly the stuff from Content paradise.

In fact in my Many years of rendering Experience with the engines from C4D AR to Lightwave 3D with the External Kray render Engine to MODO401 to Vray
I have found only TWO  poser Vendors who's products Actually look better in a high end render Engine.

1) STONEMASON
2) SANCTUMART
Not surprising when you consider that both of these men are front page  Award winners
at the professional site CGSOCIETY.ORG and they both use MAX to create Content for the pro games/Film market Primarily and retask it for Poser/DAZ as an afterthought.
 

"ive seen professional modelers who think they are hot sht look at the Renderosity marketplace and say 'i could make better products than that in my sleep', and watched them try. sure they may be skilled at modeling, level design, etc -- but as soon as they see how much additional work (and knowhow) is involved in 'poserizing' something, rounding out a product, packaging it, testing it and promoting it in the marketplace they fade pretty fcking fast.  its absolutely unbelievable how much the average poser customer expects from a $5-10 clothing pack these days."**

So true Friend
if you honestly  Calculate the man hours we vendors Spend on Developing
viable content for this Small market nearly All of us operate at a loss as I am sure  long time, Quality producers like yourself already know

oh well

Cheers

MikeMoss:  out of curiosity - what OS are you running, how much RAM do you have, and when is the last time you tested your RAM and HDD for errors?

Poser only very rarely crashes on me, and even then because I've done something stupid...lol. I only have 4 gigs of ram and an aging 1 gig video card with a quad Athlon - not that the video matters much for Poser ;). For Poser 8 though I always run it in low-priority mode per BB's trick.

Laurie

And, MikeMoss, what service release are you running? If not SR 3.1, then duh.

Quote - Hi

I have spent quite a bit of time working with DS 4 now and I'm finally trying to get the hang of he interface but I'm not going to switch from Poser.

I've worked with Poser for many years, I know where everything is and don't have to spend half my time trying to find things. 

I still say that Poser is always the least stable software on my computer, that's been true of every version I've had and 8 is no better.  It still freezes and drives me nuts but it's the instability that I'm used to.

I still like and use the Jessi and James characters.

They always looked more natural to me.

They seem easier to create characters out of and of course all my hand made textures are for them, I don't want to start all over again.

Mike 

I think you're right, Mike. The Jesse and James characters have been one of SM's better efforts, and rather than splashing out entirely new characters they might have spent more time on these like Daz did with V4. From morphs to encouraging artists to develop for them.

ah see that won't work.

there's a mind set in the poser world. daz = good, everything else = crap. even when it's proved something else is better, many won't listen.

the name is the thing. remember in the school yard? the whole designer label culture...

same thing.

I find James and his Derivative (koji) So much easier to animate

And they make Such Good "victims" in poser physics Simulations.

Cheers

Quote - Shame that so much manpower, money and effort is put into trying to do something we all know cannot be done. I guess even companies can do some whishful thinking :-)

It's amazing what people will believe after they've eaten the special brownies isn't it?

NO

Really nice quality for a good price.

...sometimes it's hard to even realise what it is you are buying. Or using as an example.

Quote - http://www.axyz-design.com/index.php?productCode=BWom0001HD2CS

Really nice quality for a good price.

...sometimes it's hard to even realise what it is you are buying. Or using as an example.

I THOUGHT that hair looked familiar!!! ;).

Laurie

Please help me understand the hair business. I'm not familiar with it. Are you showing that the axyz product is a copyright violation of some Poser hair?

Quote - NO

Why? Don't you believe in the power of the special brownies?

Quote - Please help me understand the hair business. I'm not familiar with it. Are you showing that the axyz product is a copyright violation of some Poser hair?

Looks to be that the figure is wearing Quarker's Sapphire Fox hair (and older hair model for Poser). So, either the figure's creator is Quarker, has Quarker's permission to use the hair (doubt it) or there's some funny business going on ;).

Laurie

Iiiiiinteresting.

Now I'm trying to understand if this is a burn of some kind on MGernot. What was MGernot's point, exactly? Because I wasn't clear on how to interpret that post.

Sure looks like Sapphire Fox hair to me.

PS:

No, I would NOT switch from Poser to DAZ Studio.  I didn't even upgrade from Poser 7.  Frankly, I'm not very happy with either Smith Micro OR DAZ.

Now I'm trying to understand if this is a burn of some kind on MGernot. What was MGernot's point, exactly? Because I wasn't clear on how to interpret that post.

No slam... just a reality check.

I see Turbo has dropped all their hot 600.00 chicks finally. They were all direct dirivitive mesh from V4. Complete theft with 4 hours of mesh alteration and non-overlapping UV maps, new sexy smile and clinically correct crotch. The galleries are still full of them.

*,,,alas,,,  buyers beware. *

Yup.  That's Sapphire Fox, ain't it?  One of Quarker's, anyhow.

lets be fair here should we assert this person has stolen

Koz's "messy hair"???

Cheers

The singular of wolves is not wolve, and similarly the singular of vertices is not called a vertice. grin

The word is vertex. It has an irregular plural, as does wolf.

Well, it's not irregular if you speak Latin.

vertex -> vertices

index -> indices

codex -> codices

lets be fair here should we assert this person has stolen

Koz's "messy hair"???

Nope. That's not even close to Koz hair. But,,  good luck with that logic. *

Quote - MikeMoss:  out of curiosity - what OS are you running, how much RAM do you have, and when is the last time you tested your RAM and HDD for errors?

Hi

I'm running Windows 7 HP on a Falcon Northwest Talon computer.

I7 2.93 Ghz processor.

8 Gigs of fast ram.

ATI 5870 Video Card.

Two 1 TB internal hard drives.

4 External hard drives total 2.5 TB.

2 Read Write DVDs

Soundblaster Audigy Sound Card.

My computer gets cleaned and tested constantly, I'm kind of a fanatic when it comes to computer care.

I hang out every day on the Windows 7 forum expounding on it, I beta tested Windows 7, and I test a lot of games.

The truth is that the only program I have (and I have over 90) that ever crashes is Poser.  I have everything that Adobe makes including Premiere, Indesign, Illustrator, and Photoshop and they all are stable and never freeze.

I can run Lord of the Rings Online at 250 fps.

I've never had a version of Poser that was totally stable on any computer I've ever had.

I think I started with Poser 3.  But I will admit that it doesn't freeze as often as it used to.  I haven't used 8 for long, so I'm not sure if it's better or worse then 6.

Mike