look, im not saying you shouldnt be careful on the net. your security procedures are none of my business.

All I am saying is that you MUST connect some computer to the net at some point to even get any of our stuff.... and that regardless of how or when you connect, if you buy something, it must be downloaded.

The "offline machine" point is moot.

No matter what method we choose to distribute our content, you will be connecting to DL it... after which you can check it, quarantine it, back it up or make pancakes for it! 

The only question is this. Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs*... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process.

I will always vote for less work and more art time

*Hypothetical process. actual process may vary

Tavia3D:

this begs an answer, and I'm not sure I can adequately answer it.

First, the industry is now at a point where it can either work together to come up with reasonable agreements, or it can split into two camps.  DAZ could go one way and Poser another.   Which I don't really see happening.

No, Genesis or V5 is not a poser product as yet.  The day may come.  I'm not completely enthralled with what I've found in Genesis, but I'm also fumbling trying to learn DS at the same time.  I don't see myself giving up poser for DS at this time as I'm too fond of a few of Poser features and so far find DS to be clumsy to me.

But I'm also learning BLender as something with more capability than Wings, and playing with Hexagon at the same time.  I see no problem with this, if one proves to be more trouble than it's worth to get into my head, just don't do it.

Amateur vs pro or hobbyist vs pro, broad brush you paint with.  There are probably quite a few here that are free lance artists, making a living with things the "big boys" don't want to mess with, at the same time providing service for some that can't afford the "big boys".

Antonia is nice, and I see nothing wrong with her figure.  Unless of course you're looking for something like Jessica, more fantasy than realistic. 

I don't like the installers either, but I also use very few of them.

Cloud computing is probably beyond my lifetime to become a viable entity, so I'm not going to worry about it.  If it happens before then, oh well.  I don't have to buy into it.

Im off on a plane to visit family for the holidays, I will be checking in from time to time, but please dont get too upset if I am scarce. Ill try not to neglect this thread.

Thanks for participating. I really am glad I started this thread.

Happy Holidays everyone, I wish you peace and happiness.

Rand

Quote - **The only question is this.*Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process. I will always vote for less work and more art time

*Hypothetical process. actual process may vary

Um, couldn't resist. only question? Whether Studio knows which content has an update or whether Studio knows this is the term to vote for a 3rd party contender is, to me, a Poser user, non-sequitur.

What are you saying to Poser users, here, Randall?

Imagine if  you will...A world in which people got this passionate over stuff that really matters.

V5 matters.

Kind of.

Love esther

Quote - Imagine if  you will...A world in which people got this passionate over stuff that really matters.

It exists! We're just not allowed to talk about politics here.

Quote - The only question is this. Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs*... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process.

For a company mouthpiece, you sure spend a lot of time telling people (e: your customers, no less!) their opinions are dumb.

*Quote -The only question is this. Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process.

Randall, please wake up!!
Get out of that dream!!
Take a long shower.

We, Poser users, do NOT want Studio to know anything.
We, Poser users,  do not want Studio at all.

Even less to run some background service that wants to check something any nanosecond. Or a ping-pong cloudy thing. Hey, I like summer and blue sky. :-)

Like that DS4 background content thing? Its what made me delete DS4.
And even after deleting DS4, that content thing still kept polluting my HD?
Hey, come on there, stay serious.

My PC works for me.
NOT for you, not for DS4,  or any one, or anything else for that matter.

Let me try to sum it up in very clear and simple words.

POSER users want V5, stand alone and fully working,  in a ZIP file.

Nothing more, nothing less.

We do not want to come into DS4 each and every time we want to "export" something that might or might not work. Or perhaps work in a distant future. Please be honest, and respect your customers.

While I do admire you coming here, and I like open comunication, please realise no body likes to be forced in a corner they did not choose.

well that would be ideal, but I would accept a workaround via DS if the workaround made a hi poly V5.

Love esther

DAZ_Randall is starting to sound pissed off (and with good reasons).

How many times do you need to be told a thing in order to accept it?

V5/Genesis are tied to Studio. Studio is tied (not yet, but will) to the CMS. Carrara is being tied in the same way to the CMS (see info about the newest build of Carrara on DAZ forums). DAZ content distribution will go the app store-like way (with likely the CMS as download/install manager). The CMS will tell you whether there are updates (read it will phone home, maybe on a voluntary basis but... one never knows).

Nothing in the above picture has any connection with Poser apart from a half baked (even for DAZ standards!) CR2 exporter. Everything of the above screams copy protection against warez sites (that pirates will find a way around all this is sure as much as that all this will piss off correct customers, a feature of all copy protection schemes).

In Italian there is a saying "Mangiare la minestra o saltare dalla finestra" (eat the soup or jump from the window, the English version "you can like it or you can lump it" hasn't the same feeling of doom). Either you eat the ContentStore-CMS-Studio-Genesis-V5 soup or jump from the window (and land on a deliciously soft mattress, as far as I am concerned).

Bye.

P.S.: have a look at my signature.

Quote - well that would be ideal, but I would accept a workaround via DS if the workaround made a hi poly V5.

Love esther

hi esther,

that would be OK for a workaround but wouldn't you rather have Poser capable of adding polys when and where necessary?

Then you (and poser based content makers) could use the same mesh that everyone else does. Making it slightly easier to reach the ds, carrara (and me, c4d) customers.

that would definitely be great.  Is it likely to happen?

Love esther

Quote - that would definitely be great.  Is it likely to happen?

Love esther

Yes, I think it will happen, the progress made in the next poser SR may give us a better idea as to when.

"DAZ_Randall is starting to sound pissed off (and with good reasons).

How many times do you need to be told a thing in order to accept it?

V5/Genesis are tied to Studio. Studio is tied (not yet, but will) to the CMS. Carrara is being tied in the same way to the CMS (see info about the newest build of Carrara on DAZ forums). DAZ content distribution will go the app store-like way (with likely the CMS as download/install manager). The CMS will tell you whether there are updates (read it will phone home, maybe on a voluntary basis but... one never knows).

Nothing in the above picture has any connection with Poser apart from a half baked (even for DAZ standards!) CR2 exporter. Everything of the above screams copy protection against warez sites (that pirates will find a way around all this is sure as much as that all this will piss off correct customers, a feature of all copy protection schemes).

In Italian there is a saying "Mangiare la minestra o saltare dalla finestra" (eat the soup or jump from the window, the English version "you can like it or you can lump it" hasn't the same feeling of doom). Either you eat the ContentStore-CMS-Studio-Genesis-V5 soup or jump from the window (and land on a deliciously soft mattress, as far as I am concerned).
"

Well said sir ...Well said!!

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - that would definitely be great.  Is it likely to happen?

Love esther

Yes, I think it will happen, the progress made in the next poser SR may give us a better idea as to when.

Have you had any confirmation or even hint that Poser will support SubD?

Quote - Have you had any confirmation or even hint that Poser will support SubD?

No, nothing direct or credible.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like anything more than just my opinion on an obvious solution to a given problem.

Quote - > Quote - Have you had any confirmation or even hint that Poser will support SubD?

No, nothing direct or credible.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like anything more than just my opinion on an obvious solution to a given problem.

Randall said there were improvements for exporting clothing and hair for which the service release was needed. But that does not solve the problem Esther mentioned: A low poly version of Genesis which is not really usable for closeups

There are many hurdles to get a usable version of V5 in Poser: Things like clothing and hair for Genesis need to be exported with the CR2 exporter. Props, poses, expressions need to be exported as well since they come in DSF format. Then there is the problem of existing (V4) clothing. For now it looks like you have to go the DS4 route and buy the autofit and possibly the V4 morphset for Genesis. Then you have to autofit the clothing with the V4 morphs and export the clothing.

That is the problem I have - even if we have a working CR2 exporter, it is a lot of additional work to use V5 as a figure in Poser. This might be worth it in some cases - IF you get a decent render out of it

Quote - ...There are many hurdles to get a usable version of V5 in Poser: Things like clothing and hair for Genesis need to be exported with the CR2 exporter. Props, poses, expressions need to be exported as well since they come in DSF format. Then there is the problem of existing (V4) clothing. For now it looks like you have to go the DS4 route and buy the autofit and possibly the V4 morphset for Genesis. Then you have to autofit the clothing with the V4 morphs and export the clothing. That is the problem I have - even if we have a working CR2 exporter, it is a lot of additional work to use V5 as a figure in Poser. This might be worth it in some cases - IF you get a decent render out of it

LOL, One problem at a time!

I haven't tried it, but have you looked at Colourcurvature's PML? It looks like it works better on Genesis in Poser than Autofit does in DS! It doesn't strip away the morphs from skirts for a start!

Daz_Rand a very simple suggestion about the account download page:

You have room on the download page to format it wider. Lots of white space on either side. After a recent website change when items have really long file names you can't see the full file name or just before the extension if the file is a ds. or a dcp. When I am home like right now I am on a fat pipe and it is not an issue. When I am overseas at a factory I help manage (every 3 weeks for 3 weeks in duration), I am on a slow pipe and limited to a certain number of bytes per day.Guessing and downloading the wrong file, becuase you can't see if it is for Poser or Studio can really muck up the process of making purchases and getting the right files, then getting them installed if you grab the wrong file and reach your daily dl limit.

Thanks

BTW Tuff crowd. But you knew that coming in :laugh:

Quote - The only question is this. Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs*... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process.

Frankly I couldn't give a flying flip if Studio knows anything, as it's not a program in my pipeline, nor is it likely to ever be one.

And I find it rather sad that you're calling the the current process "masochistic," when it's really nothing more than annoying, at least for me. The last company I used to buy from that released a newer version of their product that insulted and denigrated their previous version like this isn't getting any of my business anymore.

As a Poser user who isn't interested in trying to learn the D|S means of doing what is often either fairly easy or automated in Poser, especially without full documentation (and for that, I'd rather prefer a PDF sitting on my hard drive), every step DAZ takes focusing on D|S integration is another step towards losing me as a customer.

Quote - e, Poser users, do NOT want Studio to know anything.
We, Poser users,  do not want Studio at all.

There's a very simple solution to that:  Don't download it or use it.

Quote - Let me try to sum it up in very clear and simple words.

POSER users want V5, stand alone and fully working,  in a ZIP file.

Nothing more, nothing less.

How many times does it need to be said?  There IS no "V5," not in the sense of a separate, stand-alone figure like V4.  V5 is a morph of Genesis.  Genesis does not work in Poser because it uses totally different file formats, a totally different rigging and weight-mapping system, subdivision, and so on.

Yes, DAZ could cobble up a V5 figure using the Poser system, but it wouldn't have the functionality that the DS V5 (which is a morph of Genesis) has, it wouldn't be able to wear the same clothing unless that clothing were also "converted" to the Poser system... in other words, it wouldn't be V5; it would merely be a severely limited knock-off of V5.

The ONLY way that V5 could work in Poser would be if Poser could read DS files, use the same rigging and weight-mapping system that DS uses, and so on.  Since DAZ does not own Poser, it cannot modify Poser to do that.  The only entity that can modify Poser is Smith Micro.  If you want V5 (i.e., Genesis) to work in Poser, then ask Smith Micro to modify Poser, instead of yelling at DAZ to do something it cannot do.

Quote - Please be honest, and respect your customers.

If you want "respect," display it yourself.  Making the same unreasonable demand over and over and over-- after it has been explained, again and again, why that demand cannot be met--  is not showing "respect."  It is acting like a spoiled two-year-old who thinks the world revolves around him and should instantly obey his every demand, no matter how unreasonable or impossible that demand may be. 

Confronted with a tantrum-throwing two-year-old, a wise adult simply ignores him until he finally realizes that (a) his screaming is achieving nothing, and (b) the world does not revolve around hm and is not obligated to cater to his unreasonable demands.

Quote - While I do admire you coming here, and I like open comunication, please realise no body likes to be forced in a corner they did not choose.

No one is forcing you into a corner.  Ne one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do something you don't want to do.  If you don't want to use DS4, fine-- no one is forcing you to.

However, if you want the functionality of DS4, then you have to use DS4.  There's nothing unreasonable ahout that.

Consider Corel's WordPerfect and Microsoft's Word.  Yes, the two programs are "similar," in that they are both word-processing programs-- but they are also different, both in the way they work and in the specific functions and features they have.

If I want to avail myself of the functions and features that are specific to Word, then I have to use Word.  Period.  That's just the way it is.  How far would I get if, instead of just using Word, I spent my time screaming at Microsift because WordPerfect didn't have exactly the same functions and features as Word?

Answer:  not very.  Since Microsoft doesn't own WordPerfect, it cannot alter WordPerfect to function the same as Word-- and all I would achieve by screaming about it to Microsoft would be to make myself look like an unreasoable jerk.

The same applies here.  If you want to avail yourself of the features and functions specific to DS4-- including Genesis and its V5 morph-- then you have to use DS4. If you want Poser to be able to use Genesis and its V5 morph (or any of its other morphs), then you need to ask Smith Micro to add that functionality to Poser. 

The bottom line is very simple:  the two programs have diverged.  Genesis won't work in Poser, and Poser figures made with Poser's new rigging and weight-mapping system won't work in DS. 

Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at all is not going to make that happen.

Quote - Tavia3D:

this begs an answer, and I'm not sure I can adequately answer it.

First, the industry is now at a point where it can either work together to come up with reasonable agreements, or it can split into two camps.  DAZ could go one way and Poser another.   Which I don't really see happening.

No, Genesis or V5 is not a poser product as yet.  The day may come.  I'm not completely enthralled with what I've found in Genesis, but I'm also fumbling trying to learn DS at the same time.  I don't see myself giving up poser for DS at this time as I'm too fond of a few of Poser features and so far find DS to be clumsy to me.

But I'm also learning BLender as something with more capability than Wings, and playing with Hexagon at the same time.  I see no problem with this, if one proves to be more trouble than it's worth to get into my head, just don't do it.

Amateur vs pro or hobbyist vs pro, broad brush you paint with.  There are probably quite a few here that are free lance artists, making a living with things the "big boys" don't want to mess with, at the same time providing service for some that can't afford the "big boys".

Antonia is nice, and I see nothing wrong with her figure.  Unless of course you're looking for something like Jessica, more fantasy than realistic. 

I don't like the installers either, but I also use very few of them.

Cloud computing is probably beyond my lifetime to become a viable entity, so I'm not going to worry about it.  If it happens before then, oh well.  I don't have to buy into it.

I thought this was for Rand to answer, do u work for DAZ?

After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

I do not want V5 in Poser ever! I am sick Of V5 and this Debicle that DAZ Knew they were going to cause. Thinking we are big enough to push Larry Weinberg around... NOT!

So Please dont say ALL poser user want V5

Lets all just walk away from DAZ and use Antonia WM, she works better than V5 does anyway and she is actually made for POSER!

The more suport we give Antonia, the more venders will make for her and then no more daz ego that we are all guilty of suporting!

Quote - After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

I do not want V5 in Poser ever! I am sick Of V5 and this Debicle that DAZ Knew they were going to cause. Thinking we are big enough to push Larry Weinberg around... NOT!

So Please dont say ALL poser user want V5

Lets all just walk away from DAZ and use Antonia WM, she works better than V5 does anyway and she is actually made for POSER!

The more suport we give Antonia, the more venders will make for her and then no more daz ego that we are all guilty of suporting!

If you don't want V5, that's fine. But please grandstand or rant about it like Randall mentioned. And don't spam the thread about antonia vs V5. This isn't the place.

Quote - Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at all is not going to make that happen.

I think that's one of the main things everyone is upset about...they did have control over it and chose to make a product that was not compatibible with a program that a good percentage of their paying customers use.

Maybe they thought there wouldn't be as much of an outrage about it once everyone saw the possibilities with Genesis and just jump on board....maybe they did and figured they would get enough new users buying into it that it wouldn't affect there income...and maybe it hasn't yet.

I for one and not as upset about it as I was. I have enough of my own personal problems to deal with without getting too worked up over this. If Genesis is ever fully compatible with Poser (without an exporter) I may bite. If not I think I'll survive.

Quote - After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

I do not want V5 in Poser ever! I am sick Of V5 and this Debicle that DAZ Knew they were going to cause. Thinking we are big enough to push Larry Weinberg around... NOT!

So Please dont say ALL poser user want V5

Lets all just walk away from DAZ and use Antonia WM, she works better than V5 does anyway and she is actually made for POSER!

The more suport we give Antonia, the more venders will make for her and then no more daz ego that we are all guilty of suporting!

Amen!  Well said.

Quote -
The only question is this. Will studio "know" which content has an update waiting online for you and tell you... giving you the option of a one button click download and install to the location indicated in your prefs*... or will you insist on the masochistic punishment of the current download and install process.

I disagree, but here are my reasons why:

• I like being able to back up the bits. Nowadays, that takes the form of backing up entire runtime directories, but the point remains intact. I have an easily portable and cross-platform method of keeping my pile of goodies in a form that I can move from one computer (or one OS) to another, as old computers die and new ones are built.

• I most emphatically do not want to slide into a situation where data that I have purchased is held ransom to DRM and any arbitrary removal by any party that isn't me. See also Amazon's Kindle, Microsoft/Danger's Sidekick, etc.

• I actually empathize with the guy for having an offline box, especially if he's using Windows. It takes nothing to shove directories over to a USB stick or USB HDD, and shove them into the offline box. I'd hardly call that "masochistic".

=============================

Quote - where is the fun in rebuilding 300 Gb of runtimes?

...and that is why I have rsync on my laptop, and a server that specifically backs things up automatically when I'm on the home network.

Anyone that has a bajillion individual installer packages backed up for eventual install? Heh... good luck with that.

Quote - Ah, finally the agenda becomes clear.  All this over my make believe woman is better than your make believe woman? As momma always said, this is why we can't have nice things.

Pretty much.

Meanwhile, I had a great weekend w/ the in-laws so far (spending a few minutes waiting for the missus to get out of bed). I'm in Southern Oregon this weekend, for the curious.  I look out the picture windows, and see the Rogue River gliding silently by, less than 200 yards from where I sit. A flock of Canadian Geese are pecking at the ground in-between. The fog is still a bit thick this morning, but should clear up today. 

It feels pretty good, really. No conspiracies, no tinfoil, no bile-filled frothings... ah, well. I'm going to look back out the window some more and finish my coffee. 

Cheers!

Quote - > Quote - After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

I do not want V5 in Poser ever! I am sick Of V5 and this Debicle that DAZ Knew they were going to cause. Thinking we are big enough to push Larry Weinberg around... NOT!

So Please dont say ALL poser user want V5

Lets all just walk away from DAZ and use Antonia WM, she works better than V5 does anyway and she is actually made for POSER!

The more suport we give Antonia, the more venders will make for her and then no more daz ego that we are all guilty of suporting!

If you don't want V5, that's fine. But please grandstand or rant about it like Randall mentioned. And don't spam the thread about antonia vs V5. This isn't the place.

are you a Renderosity mod?  no?  then quit trying to tell other members what to post or not.

Quote - > Quote - Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at all is not going to make that happen.

 

I think that's one of the main things everyone is upset about...they did have control over it and chose to make a product that was not compatibible with a program that a good percentage of their paying customers use.

Maybe they thought there wouldn't be as much of an outrage about it once everyone saw the possibilities with Genesis and just jump on board....maybe they did and figured they would get enough new users buying into it that it wouldn't affect there income...and maybe it hasn't yet.

I for one and not as upset about it as I was. I have enough of my own personal problems to deal with without getting too worked up over this. If Genesis is ever fully compatible with Poser (without an exporter) I may bite. If not I think I'll survive.

  So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at all is not going to make that happen.

 

I think that's one of the main things everyone is upset about...they did have control over it and chose to make a product that was not compatibible with a program that a good percentage of their paying customers use.

Maybe they thought there wouldn't be as much of an outrage about it once everyone saw the possibilities with Genesis and just jump on board....maybe they did and figured they would get enough new users buying into it that it wouldn't affect there income...and maybe it hasn't yet.

I for one and not as upset about it as I was. I have enough of my own personal problems to deal with without getting too worked up over this. If Genesis is ever fully compatible with Poser (without an exporter) I may bite. If not I think I'll survive.

  So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

Oh, poor, poor DAZ. 

As said in another thread, it's DAZ and DAZ PAs who wish to sell Genesis stuff to Poser users.

You might want to consider that doing so will require NOT pissing off Poser users.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

I do not want V5 in Poser ever! I am sick Of V5 and this Debicle that DAZ Knew they were going to cause. Thinking we are big enough to push Larry Weinberg around... NOT!

So Please dont say ALL poser user want V5

Lets all just walk away from DAZ and use Antonia WM, she works better than V5 does anyway and she is actually made for POSER!

The more suport we give Antonia, the more venders will make for her and then no more daz ego that we are all guilty of suporting!

If you don't want V5, that's fine. But please grandstand or rant about it like Randall mentioned. And don't spam the thread about antonia vs V5. This isn't the place.

 

are you a Renderosity mod?  no?  then quit trying to tell other members what to post or not.

Same applies to you ;)

Quote - After all I have seen!

I do not want V5

Then why the rant?

No, I do not work for DAZ, I hardly think they'd have use for a toolmaker, and probably couldn't put up with the way I learned to work. Hurrying to meet a date is the fastest way to ensure you will do it twice, only you don't get paid for the second time.

I really don't care if V5 ever works in Poser, and while I'm trying to learn DS, I have no intention of displacing Poser for DS. Nor have I any intention of dumping the money for V5 now or in the future.

Antonia is nice, but just because she's available, that won't eliminate others liking the V series as much or more.  Some want V5, some don't care.  I'll use the Poser figures if they suit what I want, or the DAZ if they fit better, but really don't have any real preference.  My biggest problem with DAZ is documentation, and it looks like they won't have any solution soon.  No big deal, it's not locking my computer up or saying I can't use anything else.  I'm as guilty as anyone of dumping vitriol on DAZ, but I also know that accomplishes nothing, nor does dumping on those that want V5 for Poser do anything.  If the vendors decide to support Antonia, they will.  If they choose to support V5, they will.  Nothing will change that.

"Meanwhile, I had a great weekend w/ the in-laws so far (spending a few minutes waiting for the missus to get out of bed). I'm in Southern Oregon this weekend, for the curious.  I look out the picture windows, and see the Rogue River gliding silently by, less than 200 yards from where I sit. A flock of Canadian Geese are pecking at the ground in-between. The fog is still a bit thick this morning, but should clear up today. "

Now "THAT's" something to get passionate about.

8 )

P.S.

Ditto Blondie9999

Hmm, ok, told myself I wasn't going to do this, but I just can't let some of this stuff go.

I got here from outside the Poservers, guess what folks? Most graphics apps file formats are incompatable. Is it up to C4D to change it's file format to open in 3DS? Is it up to 3DS to change it's file format to open in Lightwave? And so on. Guess what, it ain't. So why is it up to DAZ to change Genesis to get it in to Poser?

DAZ even trying to get Genesis in to Poser is far more then any other CG application company would do.

Most CG apps have been able to bone, rig, and weight map for quite some time, guess what? None of it is compatable between apps. 

I've been able to rig in carrara since I got it, been able to weight paint for quite some time. Do you see me P'en a B because that rigging and wieght mapping isn't compatable with any other app? No, that is the nature of the beast and always has been.

As far as I am concernd it isn't up to DAZ to dumb down genesis to get it in to Poser. It is up to smith micro to update Poser to be genesis compatable. Personally I think you all are pointing a finger at the wrong developmental company. When sM changes something in Poser so it doesn't work in Studio, is it up to sM to change it, or DAZ to update studio?

DAZ has always went out of it's way to make it's content Poser compatable. No company that has ever own Poser has done anything to make Poser Studio format compatable.

Now the only painful part of downloading and installing content from DAZ is the F'ed up new installers; or installers in general. And if DAZ does this cloud store CMS BS they will lose me as well as a few hundered other customers. I refuse to have CMS on my comp; if it quacks like a duck. ;) And you really don't need it to use Genesi or DAZ content. CMS is a tied in yet a seperate install, you can uninstall it with out uninstlling studio or any of it's content. And if you uninstall DS4 it wont uninstall CMS because it is a seperat uninstall.

I had wondered why DAZ was pushing CMS so hard, and why many DAZ_ had infered it would be nesesary. Now that I see what they are reffering to I certainly don't want CMS on my machine. Early on I painted it as DAZ spyware to see what DAZ content you have and if you lagitamently bought it. I was assured at the time that that wasn't what it was doing. Funny sounds like that will be exactly what it will be doing. I mean if it is checking to see what you have installed/bought for updates isn't that the same thing as checking to see that you actually bought it at DAZ? I mean it will certainly be part of the proses.

And I have to wonder what updates? DAZ may update it's apps regular, but we usually get an announcement. The only time I have seen DAZ update content is when it's released borked, and again there is usually an announcement. So I don't see where I need anything running on my comp to do it.

There isn't anything to find, but I still don't want DAZ's nose in my runtimes. And the way it sounds that is excatily what CMS is. I turn in DAZ pirated content, I don't use it. And that is more out of respect for the artest then DAZ.

Give me an "ether""or", and I'll pick the "or" ;) Because I refuse to be trapped in to an "ether".

Now if DAZ trys to force people in to this cloud CMS store thing, DAZ might as well close it's store. The only customers it will have left will be hard core Dazzers. They might as well kiss the carrarests, Brycers, and Posers good by, because only those that already worship at the DAZ alter will be left.

Hi all, yep, grumpy old me back again!!!!

Randall has said he is off to his family for the holidays, so it's obvious that he won't be popping in and answering as much as you would like.

So, as it would be unfair for anyone else to answer for him, perhaps we could let a little peace spread at this festive time.

There are so many other things to do, have fun with your family. If you have no family, go and help at a hostel etc. and bring joy to others more unfoprtunate than yourself.

Yes, I know I'm normally the SUPER grumpy LROG, but sometimes it just make you think that all that energy could go into doing something nice.

No, not trying to be a mod etc. just trying to bring a small bit of peace for just a short while.

Ask questions for Randall, others please don't answer for him, that way when he does pop in he can go straight to the questions without having to go through loads of people speaking for him.

A happy Yule season to one and all, and that includes ALL Studio, Poser and whatever software you use!!!

All the best.

LROG

Quote - > Quote - Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at allis not going to make that happen.

I think that's one of the main things everyone is upset about...they did have control over it and chose to make a product that was not compatibible with a program that a good percentage of their paying customers use.

Well, only to a limited extent.  DAZ wanted to move beyond the very ilmited "Poser system," which has not changed significantly since... when?-- 2002?  2003? Poser's rigging system was grossly outmoded even back as far as 2003 or so, if not sooner.  Was DAZ supposed to go on waiting forever for Smith Micro tp adopt something better?

I, too, am uphappy over the divergence of the two programs, simply because I don't believe the market is big enough to "support" two separate collections of figures and contnet. 

On the other hand, I recognize that "moving on" to a better and more sophsticated system was long overdue.  It just so happens that DAZ was the first one to "move on"-- and Smith Micro, for reasons of its own (which may be entirely valid and reasonable) chose not to move as far, and not to move in the same direction.

At this very early point in the whole thing, it is FAR too early for people to be screaming at either company  For God's sake-- P9 and PP2012 have been out only a couple of months, and the same applies to DS4 and Genesis.  What do people expect-- that complex issues regarding radically different software are going to be resolved overnight?  Well, they won't be.  They can't be.  Even if DS and Poser again become fully compatiable, it isn't going to happen overnight.  It's going to take months, maybe even a year or two. 

And in the interim?  Is anyone going to DIE because V5 (which, again, is just a morph of Genesis) won't work in Poser?  Is anyone going to DIE because figures created with Poser's new system won't work in DS?  Is the world going to end?  Is the universe going to collapse into one gigantic black hole that will be the end of all existence?

No. 

All I'm saying is, for God's sake, have some patience!  P9 and PP2012 have only been out for a couple of months, and DS4 and Genesis have only been out for about the same time, and it is far too soon to be getting all upset about it.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Now, it may be that the two programs will eventually converge again, but that hasn't happened yet.  Maybe it will happen, and maybe it won't.  But screaming at DAZ about something over which it has NO control at all is not going to make that happen.

 

I think that's one of the main things everyone is upset about...they did have control over it and chose to make a product that was not compatibible with a program that a good percentage of their paying customers use.

Maybe they thought there wouldn't be as much of an outrage about it once everyone saw the possibilities with Genesis and just jump on board....maybe they did and figured they would get enough new users buying into it that it wouldn't affect there income...and maybe it hasn't yet.

I for one and not as upset about it as I was. I have enough of my own personal problems to deal with without getting too worked up over this. If Genesis is ever fully compatible with Poser (without an exporter) I may bite. If not I think I'll survive.

  So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

I would think as a PA you would be more concerned with the way things are going since this could potentially affect your sales in the long run too if you choose to support this new plaform.

Anyhow, if Daz has been talking to SM for (I believe someone said 2 years) about their plans I would assume Daz also knew which route SM was going as well. I don't believe SM is the one that's going to lose potential sales over all of this nonsense. To me it would have made much more sense to figure out some kind of a more acceptable method for Genesis to be used in Poser before they released it. Even if that meant having the annoying exporter ready before Genesis was released for those that don't mind having to use it. IMO there would have been a lot less people upset. Yes, there will always be some people that will bitch and moan.  I have no problem whatsoever with Daz or any other company trying to evolve into more advanced technology. I commend Daz for what they're doing as far as that goes, but again, there might have been a lot less bitching had things been done differently.

I, too, am uphappy over the divergence of the two programs, simply because I don't believe the market is big enough to "support" two separate collections of figures and contnet. 

Exactly!

And in the interim?  Is anyone going to DIE because V5 (which, again, is just a morph of Genesis) won't work in Poser?  Is anyone going to DIE because figures created with Poser's new system won't work in DS? 

Actually, I think some people just may. :/

All I'm saying is, for God's sake, have some patience!  P9 and PP2012 have only been out for a couple of months, and DS4 and Genesis have only been out for about the same time, and it is far too soon to be getting all upset about it.

Can't speak for the rest of the Poser users, but I am plenty patient. I have at least 2 year old purchases that have never even been installed, let alone things I've installed, but not even toyed with yet.

Quote - > Quote - So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

Oh, poor, poor DAZ. 

As said in another thread, it's DAZ and DAZ PAs who wish to sell Genesis stuff to Poser users.

You might want to consider that doing so will require NOT pissing off Poser users.

 Ahhh!  Speaking for all Poser users are you?  If you are, then take a look at my join date here.  I am a Poser user and nether you or the others claiming to speak for Poser users speak for me.  And just because I also use DAZ Studio doesn't make me any less of a Poser user either.

Would I like Genesis to be usable in Poser...yes.  Is that because I'm a DAZ PA...no.  I want people to be able to use whatever figure they want in the program of their choice.  I also want content creators to be able to create for whatever program they use.  Is that such a bad thing?  

What company doesn't want everyone to use their latest (& greatest) product?  SM does.  So why is it such an evil thing that DAZ wants the same thing?

Quote - If you want "respect," display it yourself.  Making the same unreasonable demand over and over and over-- after it has been explained, again and again, why that demand cannot be met--  is not showing "respect."  It is acting like a spoiled two-year-old who thinks the world revolves around him and should instantly obey his every demand, no matter how unreasonable or impossible that demand may be. 

Confronted with a tantrum-throwing two-year-old, a wise adult simply ignores him until he finally realizes that (a) his screaming is achieving nothing, and (b) the world does not revolve around hm and is not obligated to cater to his unreasonable demands.

Quote - While I do admire you coming here, and I like open comunication, please realise no body likes to be forced in a corner they did not choose.

No one is forcing you into a corner.  Ne one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do something you don't want to do.  If you don't want to use DS4, fine-- no one is forcing you to.

However, if you want the functionality of DS4, then you have to use DS4.  There's nothing unreasonable ahout that.

Hi Blondie!

I take it that you ran out of people to shout down on the DAZ boards & decided to take your show on the road.  Your little screed is exactly what we were talking about earlier.

Since you seemed to have missed it, this is DAZ talking to POSER users.  We are explaining to a DAZ representative, who was kind enough to take time out of his day, to come here & address POSER users about where DAZ is going and make suggestions to how POSER users could continue to view DAZ as a valued resource, as opposed to the great satan.

By and large, the Poser users here have spent a great deal of money on DAZ content & we are trying to address our concerns to DAZ.  We want to continue to give money to DAZ so that even rude DAZ PAs such as yourself can still get a piece of that action.

In an earlier post in this thread when I was talking about DAZ vendors needed customer service training, I was talking about YOU.  Thank you for showing up & not letting me down.  Your hostility to Poser users in general is why not only do I no longer purchase your products (as fine as they are), I have actually gone to the trouble of deleting every product you have ever made from my runtimes.

As a DAZ PA, coming onto a POSER forum, and then to a POSER thread to tell POSER users to sit down & shut up is a bit much.  We got it, you think that DAZ poops rainbows.  Some of us don't.  We like DAZ content (not DS4).  We are addressing our concerns to a DAZ rep, not some DAZ fanboi.

Asking DAZ to rethink some of their policies, isn't an unreasonable demand.  It is a way of addressing the positive feedback loop that has been developing on the DAZ boards.

As a final note, Poser users don't seem to view Genesis as "functionality", We seem to view it as a figure.  As does DAZ apparently, seeing as there is a Victoria 5 section in the DAZ store.

And as far as I am concerned, Genesis is a solution in search of a problem.  I am more concerned about the "app store" for content.  Based on DAZ's apparent inability to code, I don't like how an app store would be tied to a product I have no interest in.  Of course, if the next version of DS is better than Poser 2012, then I might have to reconsider; but right now, it isn't even a contest.

"I most emphatically do not want to slide into a situation where data that I have purchased is held ransom to DRM and any arbitrary removal by any party that isn't me. See also Amazon's Kindle"

Hi Just to clarify, My Experience with Amazon's Kindle is limited to their newest Tablet: "kindle Fire"

Unlike the previous "E-readers" it is of course  an Android  OS based tablet computer.
Just wanted to mention that you are not Limited to what you buy from Amazon & what they store for you in their "cloud"

Using my mac and a micro USB cable
I have installed third party android App's including a better web browser ,(as self installing .apk files)
My own (NON DRM) Audio MP3's
My own  (NON DRM) Movies& Videos
(in  HD mpeg4 format converted  by Me)

I found an amazing free Mac OS program called "Calibre" that will convert nearly any document to the required ".mobi" book format for reading on my kindle.
this  "Calibre" app can also Extract books FROM my kindle and Archive them in the library on my OSX mac

Thus none of the Many books currently on My Kindle fire are from Amazon except the free Dictionary and user manual that came pre-installed on the device.

when I turn on the kindles Wi-fi  and hit the "re synch to the cloud" button.

it only shows me the few freeware apps in  "the Cloud" that I have Downloaded from the amazon store such as
"Angry birds " and some other free Games& utilities.
it ignores all of my third party "sideloaded" content.

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

Oh, poor, poor DAZ. 

As said in another thread, it's DAZ and DAZ PAs who wish to sell Genesis stuff to Poser users.

You might want to consider that doing so will require NOT pissing off Poser users.

 Ahhh!  Speaking for all Poser users are you?  If you are, then take a look at my join date here.  I am a Poser user and nether you or the others claiming to speak for Poser users speak for me.  And just because I also use DAZ Studio doesn't make me any less of a Poser user either.

Would I like Genesis to be usable in Poser...yes.  Is that because I'm a DAZ PA...no.  I want people to be able to use whatever figure they want in the program of their choice.  I also want content creators to be able to create for whatever program they use.  Is that such a bad thing?  

What company doesn't want everyone to use their latest (& greatest) product?  SM does.  So why is it such an evil thing that DAZ wants the same thing?

 

You're the one defining it as "evil," not I.

I have absolutely no desire to use Genesis, nor any of it's derivatives.

I don't care if DAZ never gets the thing into Poser.

I most certainly do not consider it evil.  Just a grey blob, that no matter how good a PA is, doesn't look like a woman when it's meant to, nor look like a man when it's meant to. 

I think it's awful technology.

But, that's just my opinion.

All I was saying is that if you want customers to use your products, you should NOT set out to piss them off.

Simple concept, really.

The DRM problems are well known (a partial list):

1 - it does not deter pirates (they are much smarter than the average corporate developer);
2 - it inconviniencies (read pisses off) the legitimate users;
3 - your computer must be connected to the internet (especially for randomly phoning home apps that, after a few connection misses, decide that your copy is illegal);
4 - when the parent company goes belly up, you lose your stuff (happened with a few times DRM music);
5 - opens all kind of security risks (a hacker can hijack the DRM procedure);
6 - bugs that make the DRM server decide that your items are illegal;
7 - connection problems twarting access to company servers (either local or more generalized, like DNS problems);
8 - adds complexity and development cost to the program;
9 - increases need for support to users.

Bye.

P.S.: I remember a certain person mockingly citing a Churchill's speach ("we will fight on the beaches...") when, many moons ago, I pointed out how things would pan out. Things are heading the way I predicted.

P.P.S.: we are out of the "libelous speculations" area, aren't we?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - So DAZ should have stuck with the abilities of the version of Poser available when they started developing Genesis?   But then people would be bitching about DAZ not providing a weight mapped new figure since they didn't know what direction SM was going.  No natter what direction DAZ would have gone people would bitch.  

Oh, poor, poor DAZ. 

As said in another thread, it's DAZ and DAZ PAs who wish to sell Genesis stuff to Poser users.

You might want to consider that doing so will require NOT pissing off Poser users.

 Ahhh!  Speaking for all Poser users are you?  If you are, then take a look at my join date here.  I am a Poser user and nether you or the others claiming to speak for Poser users speak for me.  And just because I also use DAZ Studio doesn't make me any less of a Poser user either.

Would I like Genesis to be usable in Poser...yes.  Is that because I'm a DAZ PA...no.  I want people to be able to use whatever figure they want in the program of their choice.  I also want content creators to be able to create for whatever program they use.  Is that such a bad thing?  

What company doesn't want everyone to use their latest (& greatest) product?  SM does.  So why is it such an evil thing that DAZ wants the same thing?

 

Is your join date supposed to impress me?  If so, why?

We are addressing our concerns to a DAZ rep, not a DAZ PA.  Do you really think that DAZ_Rand needs you to come here & defend the great DAZ from those Poser-using ingrates?  He is a big boy & he came here willingly.  He asked for it, & we are addressing our concerns to him.

If, as you claim, you want Genesis to work in Poser, how are you helping?

From my perspective, the way DAZ has rolled out the content creation tools has made your job harder, not easier.  And as a mac user, don't get me started on dynamic clothing or more acurately the lack thereof.

If you want Genesis to work in Poser, as you claim, shouldn't you also be joining the chorus of folks that are asking for a Poser compatible version of Genesis?  

I haven't seen DAZ make any effort to get Miki 3 working in DS, so I don't know why it is SM's responsibility to get Genesis working in Poser.

The concerns that some of us have (and as someone who makes Poser compatible products, you should be even more concerned) is the whole "app store" concept.  DAZ appears to be tying the app store to DS4.  Rand has already mentioned moving Carerra & Hexagon capabilities to DS.  Given DAZ's apparent coding skills, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

That SHOULD concern you a lot.  There is more than a few folks who don't like how DAZ tied CMS to DS4.  

The installer issue has cost DAZ PAs sales.  There were a lot of products that I wanted to buy from DAZ, but couldn't because I had no way to install them (OS9 installers).

If I have to have DS4 to purchase content from DAZ, well, I'll miss them.  And I am sure that 'Rosity & RNDA will send thank you notes for the increased sales & traffic.

From my perspective, the issue is one of control.  I am a Mac user, and I recognized this real early.  DAZ feels that they should control my computer.  I am not willing to give them that control.  I don't have a problem leaving DAZ behind.  I'll miss Stonemason & the Dystopia products, but I'll get over it.  

It is becoming an IF, THEN statement.  IF DAZ feels a need to add more tentecles into my machine, THEN I will not be the only one leaving.  

And this is the only place we can address our concerns to DAZ, since by their own admission here, they only want the assimilated, shiny, happy people on their own forums.

Once again I have to point out the CMS is not tied to DS4 or even genesis. I have been uninstalling CMS since the DS4 betas. Only problem is an empty "smart content" tab woop to F'n do.

I have used Genesis in DS4 and carrarar 8.5 no problem with no CMS.

It is a Content Management System, that is it.

DAZ may like to make it to be more, but that would be a mistake that could cost them dearly.

 So smith micro has done nothing to make Miki3 studio campatable, yet here is DAZ trying as best they can to get Genesis poser compatable, and you are still going to B at them? Where's the eye role smily when you need him. 

Now my question is where is the "report" button? Or are personal attacks allowed on this forum?

Re: Blondie thinks DAZ poops rainbows - HAHAHAHAHAHAA that is the silliest, most inaccurate thing Ive ever laid eyes on. In fact, its silly to assume that any PA thinks that. We sometimes agree with them, and sometimes we don't. And sometimes, we can see both sides. Just like anything in life. At the end of the day tho, Blondie is right. Am I happy with the divide? Newp.... and Im a Poser user too.... but Im not gonna tar and brand DAZ for it. If I WAS gonna put pressure somewhere (not to say I would, but if) it would be on SM.... the ball is in their court, now.

PE: Yeah, Im gonna say it... I agree with you. I think everyone needs to go outside, get some fresh air, relax and enjoy the holidays. This thread isn't going anywhere. If there are questions lingering, I think they should be asked... but this thread should be limited to just that. All the fighting is taking it OT. Just my dont-worry-be-happy, laid back non moderating 2 cents.

Randy hasn't said anything about DRM, that's a supposition that people are making. What he did say in one of his latest posts was

Quote - No matter what method we choose to distribute our content, you will be connecting to DL it... after which you can check it, quarantine it, back it up or make pancakes for it! 

which appears to be pretty close to an assurance that we will be able to back content up and move it to another machine, and hopefully reorganise the user files to suit our needs. Later he comments that having it on an offline machine will stop it detecting updates, which again strongly implies there's no plan to force any kind of validation or DRM system or that the content will be available for use only when connected to the web. I'm little more keen than any of you on cloud-based systems, or things that phone home for validation, given the reliability of BT but what little solid information we have doesn't yet point to the prospective DAZ system having the most serious issues - it sounds more like a delivery system than an actual management system.

Quote - Randy hasn't said anything about DRM, that's a supposition that people are making. What he did say in one of his latest posts was > Quote - No matter what method we choose to distribute our content, you will be connecting to DL it... after which you can check it, quarantine it, back it up or make pancakes for it! 

which appears to be pretty close to an assurance that we will be able to back content up and move it to another machine, and hopefully reorganise the user files to suit our needs. Later he comments that having it on an offline machine will stop it detecting updates, which again strongly implies there's no plan to force any kind of validation or DRM system or that the content will be available for use only when connected to the web. I'm little more keen than any of you on cloud-based systems, or things that phone home for validation, given the reliability of BT but what little solid information we have doesn't yet point to the prospective DAZ system having the most serious issues - it sounds more like a delivery system than an actual management system.

How is this store going to know what is in my runtime if it isn't scanning it for DAZ content?  If it is just looking at my purchase history, there is no need to touch my computer, it can simply reset my available downloads.