The difference is the time and skill required to do the original mesh.

Take Dawn for instance, someone has taken the time to do all that work.

I come along with Zbrush and make a bodysuit for her in 5 minutes doing the masking tools routine.

Not as easy as a 5 minute job to take a lores base suit and make it into something that fits Dawn.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

My understanding is that as long as what you're providing for redistribution is a displacement map, and not the mesh with the map baked into it, you're fine: to use your map, someone still needs to obtain the original mesh from the owner of it, which is what mesh makers are trying to protect.

Look at it this way: you're making their property MORE valuable by adding content like displacement maps for it. If you're providing their mesh (even in modified manner) you're undermining the value of it, which is what upsets the owners.

Quote - The difference is the time and skill required to do the original mesh.

Take Dawn for instance, someone has taken the time to do all that work.

I come along with Zbrush and make a bodysuit for her in 5 minutes doing the masking tools routine.

Not as easy as a 5 minute job to take a lores base suit and make it into something that fits Dawn.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

I don't mean that, I mean legally speaking.

In the end, the bodysuit would require Dawn to be used - and would be an extra content piece for people to want to have her.

Some say digital painting isn't art because it can be so much easier than traditional painting. But all the amount of ctrl+z, digital layers and unending supplies of "paint" can't make a good final image without an artist to make it.

I understand that it's their mesh and work. I wouldn't want someone to take a piece of one of my drawings and use it in a collage without my permission and no credit to me. But people don't need to buy my original drawing to have that collage, you know what I'm saying? :)

There is a VERY big difference between what they 'could' disallow based on IP law vs what they would likely disallow.  Everything about dawn is part of their IP.  They could choose to protect her basic shape if they wanted.  They would be within their legal rights(ok i'm no expert here so take it with a grain of salt) to use IP law to block a lot of content that is made by the standards methods....

They arent going to do that of course.  We'll be able to build for her just like any other figure.  The only sticky points will be in cross over material between Dawn and her competing figures.  ie using v4 textures on dawn etc..  And that would be a concern from daz's side, not HW3D

Take v4 WM as an example.  Daz viewed her as a competing product and expressly forbid us from using anything that they owned.  Grouping, joint centers, bones. etc..  so we had to build an entiely new rig for her, weight map it and find a way to inject that into peoples existing v4 figures because we couldn't re-distribute anything that daz had created.  Compare that to clothing creation where vendors routinely re-distribute derivations of dazs joint centers, rigging and grouping.  But it was their right to protect it and they chose to do so as the resulting free figure was competition to genesis.

Quote -  I'm certainly not the only DS user to bring up the exact same issue in this thread as a barrier to acceptance on the Daz side.

And right there is the thing I'm objecting to from both sides.  It's brought up again, and again, and again, with exactily no information to base a might or maybe on.  I see the content creators on both sides saying over and over they're willing to collaborate with the other side, which should answer most of that issue.  If it's not accepted by the ds users, it will be for a very simple reason, the content makers are going to look at it and nope, it's not a vicky or a gene, so they're not interested.  I don't know if that describes the real situation, but every time someone brings it up, it's always in the light that it will probably fail for that reason. 

And I know it seems the Poser users are probably over enthusiastic, but since V4.2, daz, the prime supplier of figures for Poser, has done exactly nothing in the line of a new Poser figure.  Why shouldn't we be enthusiastic?

As far as my Poserworld comment, I learned a long time ago I can spend useless hour after useless hour looking at other stores, or simply go to Poserworld and probably find something very close to what I'm looking for.  I think I've used Rendo maybe three times, RDNA a couple, spent a lot of money at daz, which was just throwing it away.  Poserworld usually has what I'm looking for or very close to it.  The life membership was ridiculously cheap in that light.  I also have no doubt Poserworld will have content for Dawn almost as soon as she's released. 

Doric.

Quote - I also have no doubt Poserworld will have content for Dawn almost as soon as she's released.  Doric.

From your lips to Steve & Allen's ears :)

A displacment map is just that .."A Map"...it is not an actual part of the mesh.

The issues at daz are if you use their mesh for making things, wether this is cutting parts out for things like geografting or shrink-wrapping a new mesh to their sculpted shape.

But all a displacment map does is give the renderer instructions as to how to render the object. Just like Diffuse maps, Spec maps, or normal maps (and any of the dozens of other maps you could include with an object.

There is nothing illegal about making displacment maps.

Maybe the HiveWire3D Team could clarify the situation for us in a lter posting.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - > Quote - Appeantly zBrush definition of displacement maps are different then Poser & DAZ's definition of displacement maps.

In Zbrush you paint displacement directly on the mesh, yes, but in the end, the way you export it so that it works in Poser or DS, it becomes nothing but an image. You can't extract 3d information from it.

It's no different than painting a color texture in Zbrush directly over the mesh, really. If figure creators restricted that, it would actually hurt business - a lot of content creators would refrain from using that figure, and it'd be mighty hard to make quality stuff for it.

No you do not paint on the mesh.
You sculpt the mesh.

You do extract 3d information from a displacement ,vector map.

Think of displacement ,vector maps as a very high tech bump map.

Quote - A displacment map is just that .."A Map"...it is not an actual part of the mesh.

The issues at daz are if you use their mesh for making things, wether this is cutting parts out for things like geografting or shrink-wrapping a new mesh to their sculpted shape.

But all a displacment map does is give the renderer instructions as to how to render the object. Just like Diffuse maps, Spec maps, or normal maps (and any of the dozens of other maps you could include with an object.

There is nothing illegal about making displacment maps.

No can't compare Diffuse maps, Spec maps, or normal maps to displacement ,vector maps.

Agree on displacement maps, a lot of work is for a base mesh and then the displacement does most of the work.

Take a space suit type of bodysuit for example.

The basesuit is made, then little dodahs are added, not too many as to make the mesh too high.

Now, you can play with displacment to add all those raised up areas etc. Those don't need to be modeled, they can be done in a graphics program.

Take a look at certain high res models of robots whenthey are untextured, there is hardly any modelling, most of the nice work is done via displacement.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

PLEASE PLEASE keep in mind that what one program calls displacement, and shrink wrap, are totally different.

I believe that in one program, shrink wrap would actually match the "bag" to the same verts/faces as the underlying figure, basically copying the mesh. Is that correct?

Last I knew, using shrink wrap, or smoothing in Daz, was allowed, because it does not actually copy the geometry, but pulls the existing "bag" or item into collision fit.  

Far as I'm aware, using the second kind of shrink wrap was always okay. I think there needs to be a clear definition of terms and meanings as well as an outline of what is allowed or not. 

Interesting discussion what shall we take next? How many angels can dance on a pin head?

It is time for the Dawn makers to make a move or else I don't know what will happen...

Depends on the size of the angels!!! Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Interesting discussion what shall we take next? How many angels can dance on a pin head?

 

four and a half.  

And by god I -WILL- shank the person who says differently!!

Very nice! IMHO all figures should come with Normal and Displacement mapping-adds to the realism.

On a side note- the junction of the arm and forearm is in need of help-look at the second image in the viewer.

Quote - Realistic = with photografic texture like this,

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/rigged-female-max/669560

Use the image viewer..

Its very good, but still not phot realistic.  There is texture stretching where the arm is lifted, the lashes look like poser lashes, the lips look kind of plasticy but...

the eyes.. OMG those look real!!  

Quote - Very nice! IMHO all figures should come with Normal and Displacement mapping-adds to the realism.

On a side note- the junction of the arm and forearm is in need of help-look at the second image in the viewer.

Quote - Realistic = with photografic texture like this,

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/rigged-female-max/669560

Use the image viewer..

Ok, I'm done in this thread. If we're not allowed to discuss valid concerns, I don't need to be here. If someone wants to work on converting Poser shaders to DS, PM me.

Quote - No can't compare Diffuse maps, Spec maps, or normal maps to displacement ,vector maps.

Quote - No you do not paint on the mesh.
You sculpt the mesh.

You do extract 3d information from a displacement ,vector map.

Think of displacement ,vector maps as a very high tech bump map.

Sorry Ron, but you are very wrong in this.

It seems you are coming from a zbrush perspective on this, and as such it may seem like you are sculpting the actual mesh. But if you were actually sculpting the "mesh" then you would be saving out a mesh with those millions of polygons.

But..you are not doing that. Once you save out the displacment map from zbrush, your mesh stays the same, and the MAP you made is what gives the renderer directions as to how to bump it up...but the actual mesh does NOT change.

The displacment map just gives the renderer information as to which areas bump up or sink down to give the "appearance" of being a higher resolution mesh. But it is just render information. It is not mesh information.

The only way it relates to the mes is in the UV mapping of the particular mesh..and that is the same as diffuse, spec, etc.

Rawn

Poser ,DAZ don't have vector maps yet.
Displacement maps are seldome used with Poser ,DAZ
Don't have F5 but reads displacement map not sure if that means a zBrush displacement map.

If you want to see what displacement ,vector maps can do.

http://pixologic.com/

You didn't have any valid concerns with me, you just put your words in my mouth.

Wrong idea!!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Is July 4 a holiday in the USA, if so, then we may not get any info today.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - sorry, wrong thread ;)

Bill

I agree....lol

Dawn, Dawn, Dawn, Dawn, DAWN! LOL

Laurie

Quote - Poser ,DAZ don't have vector maps yet.
Displacement maps are seldome used with Poser ,DAZ
Don't have F5 but reads displacement map not sure if that means a zBrush displacement map.

If you want to see what displacement ,vector maps can do.

 

http://pixologic.com/

Hah...I have been using zbrush since it first came out...and have been making displacment maps for a variety of programs for years.

I do know what they can do ;)

They can be very powerful tools to create characters if you know how to use them.

Quote - > Quote - No can't compare Diffuse maps, Spec maps, or normal maps to displacement ,vector maps.

 

Quote - No you do not paint on the mesh.
You sculpt the mesh.

You do extract 3d information from a displacement ,vector map.

Think of displacement ,vector maps as a very high tech bump map.

 

Sorry Ron, but you are very wrong in this.

It seems you are coming from a zbrush perspective on this, and as such it may seem like you are sculpting the actual mesh. But if you were actually sculpting the "mesh" then you would be saving out a mesh with those millions of polygons.

But..you are not doing that. Once you save out the displacment map from zbrush, your mesh stays the same, and the MAP you made is what gives the renderer directions as to how to bump it up...but the actual mesh does NOT change.

The displacment map just gives the renderer information as to which areas bump up or sink down to give the "appearance" of being a higher resolution mesh. But it is just render information. It is not mesh information.

 

The only way it relates to the mes is in the UV mapping of the particular mesh..and that is the same as diffuse, spec, etc.

 

Rawn

We might be talking about how diffrent App's threat displacement maps.

What your describing to me sounds like burned maps not displacment maps in C4D.
In C4D a displacment ,vector maps rases the meshes polycount to 4 million.

While we are waiting for Chris & company some interesting trivia.

Just like in US, the European medieval monks liked juridical nit-picking. There are rows upon rows of legal matter about such things as "if a woman gives birth to a child while travelling must she pay another ticket" and so on.

In Washington, every fifth male is a lawyer. (Unlike the facts about the monks that is only hearsay though).

Consider this: no government would want to make laws that is not enforceable. To do so would water out the respect for law and be counterproductive.

Quote - Appeantly zBrush definition of displacement maps are different then Poser & DAZ's definition of displacement maps.

It is...

Do this: load a figure in Poser. Apply a displacement map. With the displacement map applied, export the figure as object. You'll end up with no displacement and the original figure ;).

Poser doesn't export displacement. Only that which occurs in a cloth sim. I'm not sure about PP14/P10.

In Poser, a displacement map does the same thing a bump does...only a displacement map moves the mesh. But only in Poser. It's not usable in anything else by exporting a displaced mesh.

Laurie

Quote - We might be talking about how diffrent App's threat displacement maps.

What your describing to me sounds like burned maps not displacment maps in C4D.
In C4D a displacment ,vector maps rases the meshes polycount to 4 million.

Nope...a displacment map is a displacment map...no matter where it is.

A displacment map will not raise the polycount, because it has nothing to do with the polys. You may raise your polycount to make a displacment map, but then you save off your map and you apply the map to the base mesh at its normal poly count.

Using the map will not change the ploycount, it will just give the info to the renderer to make it appear like a higher poly mesh.

Displacement mappinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_mapping

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - While we are waiting for Chris & company some interesting trivia.

Just like in US, the European medieval monks liked juridical nit-picking. There are rows upon rows of legal matter about such things as "if a woman gives birth to a child while travelling must she pay another ticket" and so on.

In Washington, every fifth male is a lawyer. (Unlike the facts about the monks that is only hearsay though).

Consider this: no government would want to make laws that is not enforceable. To do so would water out the respect for law and be counterproductive.

Hehehe...straight from the Bathroom Reader? ;)

Laurie

True. But I live in the US and we are famous for making laws that are counterproductive and not enforceable! :-)

Quote - While we are waiting for Chris & company some interesting trivia.

Just like in US, the European medieval monks liked juridical nit-picking. There are rows upon rows of legal matter about such things as "if a woman gives birth to a child while travelling must she pay another ticket" and so on.

In Washington, every fifth male is a lawyer. (Unlike the facts about the monks that is only hearsay though).

Consider this: no government would want to make laws that is not enforceable. To do so would water out the respect for law and be counterproductive.

Quote - And right there is the thing I'm objecting to from both sides.  It's brought up again, and again, and again, with exactily no information to base a might or maybe on.  I see the content creators on both sides saying over and over they're willing to collaborate with the other side, which should answer most of that issue.  If it's not accepted by the ds users, it will be for a very simple reason, the content makers are going to look at it and nope, it's not a vicky or a gene, so they're not interested.  I don't know if that describes the real situation, but every time someone brings it up, it's always in the light that it will probably fail for that reason. 

And I know it seems the Poser users are probably over enthusiastic, but since V4.2, daz, the prime supplier of figures for Poser, has done exactly nothing in the line of a new Poser figure.  Why shouldn't we be enthusiastic?

We're not even talking about the same thing. Please take the time to understand what I'm talking about before attempting to jam both your feet down my throat for what you presume I represent, without having a clue what that is.

I have no doubt some, many or possibly even most content providers will support DS with new development, and possibly even by retooling existing content. It's definitely in their interest to do so. That has absolutely nothing (or by the kindest stretch, very little) to do with the issue I was discussing, however. In 70-odd pages, I can count on one hand the number of posts that have discussed the issue I was talking about. Easy enough to overlook (or just skip) if one is not trolling for things to take offense to, I would think. Indeed, I would have let the issue drop a couple of posts ago had you not felt it necessary to break out ad hominem attacks on me.

Have I ever in any way indicated Poser users shouldn't be happy? Absolutely not! Don't impose your own jealousy on me: I'll have none of it. I'm thrilled for my Poser brethren and, um, sistren. :D I'm thrilled, myself, as a DS user. But then, I'm a lot more of a techie nerd than many DS users. It's those less-nerdy users for whom I'm attempting to be a voice in this discussion.

And with that, I'm done with discussing this issue with you, good sir. As I said, if you have personal issues with me, take them to private messages; to continue them in this venue is disrespectful not only to me, but to everyone else as well.

Afrodite-O

Wow. You are a lovely lady! I think we should have an AfroO morph and texture set for Dawn-but then people would complain that it was not "realistic!" :-)

Eric

Quote - > Quote - A pretty face but her body is a semi-toon. It is an impossible thin waist and a small hip. That what I was talking about, we go away from real models to fantasy shapes without seeing it.

 

Oh, hi.

This is me: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/179244_130244680374838_1763904_n.jpg

and me: https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/167328_130244710374835_6998634_n.jpg

aaand me: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q75/s720x720/8651_401648166618310_1088862424_n.jpg

 

No, I don't do waist training with corsets, and never had a surgery. I don't even really exercise apart from dancing.

 

We seriously need to stop saying this and that body shape is impossible just because we've never seen it in public. Really.

Quote - > Quote - Interesting discussion what shall we take next? How many angels can dance on a pin head?

 

 

four and a half.  

And by god I -WILL- shank the person who says differently!!

ROFLMAO! 

This thread grows in a hurry.  :-)

Will the content creators will be allowed to post some impressions of Dawn -- not confidential things, but what they like about her.  GOOD stuff.  I know they'll be busy, but it'd keep the flow of information going.  Or coming. 

Eric Walters,

Alas, something has gone wrong. And let us not talk about patent-law, that really is too sad. Even if you are a law-maker, you need to have a sense of humor.

A quick example of a displacement map.

You have a basic top of say 500k.

You add a texture to it, nothing added to the mesh size. Nothing really changes, it's just a flat texture.

You now add a weave displacement map.

That makes it look like the texture now has a weave texture on it, again, nothing has changed the mesh size.

I didn't make the displacement on the model, I just made it in a graphics program.

All displacement does to me is make areas stick up and other sections drop down.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Displacement mappinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_mapping

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

paganeagle2001 your a genius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kb3uC1nY7Q

Vintorix

True- I was agreeing with you. I seriously doubt HiveWire would want to make rules that would be counter productive.

BTW: I like your "Shakespeare" quote!

Quote - Eric Walters,

Alas, something has gone wrong. And let us not talk about patent-law, that really is too sad. Even if you are a law-maker, you need to have a sense of humor.

Quote -  

@Doric, I have a copy of Poser 9. I prefer DS. I see nothing wrong with you asking for content and features you want, so long as others are also free to do the same. Example:

Commonality, I don't use ds for exactly the same reason.  And, I would think nobody  should have any problem in my asking for dynamic or hybrid, the hybrid would work in ds as conforming, and in poser I wouldn't have to mess with trying to conform.  I don't see any problem there. I think I said if it was a long skirt and conforming, I'd pass, but that's me.  Not everybody else.  I'm not going to demand everyone drive a Dodge Dakota simply because I do.  Just that they should be aware there are things some of us need, and don't expect to sell us anything unless it fills that need.

I know I don't have a way with words, and I know I also have a tendency to pick exactly the wrong way to say something.  But that's also me, it's been me for almost 72 years, I don't think that's going to change in however many I have left. 

Doric.

The amount of things I have seen and thought, wow, look at the modelling on that, it mus thave taken them ages.

Then I see an untextured version and thing..... Hey, where the hell did all that modelling go!!!! LOL.

It's amazing what can be done with a basic mesh and some very clever displacement maps.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

A nice example of displacement is by Darkworld. Check out the items in the store. Most are done with displacements.

By the way, I'm not encouraging sales, or singling out a single vendor, I'm just mentioning for an example.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - paganeagle2001 your a genius

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kb3uC1nY7Q

Your video explains it quite well...the line you have to pay attention to is "at render time"  (around 2:04 mins in)

Because at render time is where the information of the displacement map comes into play. It doesnt change the mesh, just the render information

Okay getting the thread back to Dawn but still using displacement as an example.

Dawn has a X amount sized mesh.

I decide to make a batman style Two Face character for her.

I can either mess around in ZBRush and model that information on to the mesh and increase the mesh size and load back as a morph, as long as I don't add or subtract anything from the mesh.

Or.....

I can do a displacement map with all the burns, wrinkles etc.

That image file does not add to the Dawn mesh size, it remains the same, but the displacement mesh does all the nice things.

This is also how they do 2nd skin battle suits etc.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Headding up to noon at Utah, so if they are in, maybe some nice news about Dawn will appear.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Interesting discussion what shall we take next? How many angels can dance on a pin head?

To quote Byron from Babylon 5... "As many as want to."

July 4th is a US holiday, it's Independance Day, so we may or may not hear from them today.

If it's Independance Day........ watch out for those BIG flying saucers!!!!! Lol.

Sorry, had to!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

If I don't get any Dawn news soon I hang myself!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Appeantly zBrush definition of displacement maps are different then Poser & DAZ's definition of displacement maps.

In Zbrush you paint displacement directly on the mesh, yes, but in the end, the way you export it so that it works in Poser or DS, it becomes nothing but an image. You can't extract 3d information from it.

It's no different than painting a color texture in Zbrush directly over the mesh, really. If figure creators restricted that, it would actually hurt business - a lot of content creators would refrain from using that figure, and it'd be mighty hard to make quality stuff for it.

No you do not paint on the mesh.
You sculpt the mesh.

You do extract 3d information from a displacement ,vector map.

Think of displacement ,vector maps as a very high tech bump map.

I know what displacement maps are. I use them and make them all the time.

I said painting because the sculpting tools in Zbrush are very similar to painting, only you paint with dimension.

STILL the final result is just a map that has no use without the original mesh.