Using the morph brush to tighten the fit of conforming clothing really goes a long way toward making them more realistic. I've even posted a mini-tut about this in an earlier thread.

The missing piece is for the clothing items to aquire some creases and folds. I've been able to do with by making the morph brush really small and pulling and pushing here and there.

So, comes my point (Yes there is one): Is there a simpler way? Short of taking the whole mess into the cloth room and doing a full conversion (defeats the reason for using conforming clothing)????

I'm sure there is a wiser head than mine who has solved this.

Maybe a displacement map of some sort?

Think it would have to be painted though... not sure this could be done with a procedural node?

Existing conforming clothing with wrinkles can smooth out with the fitting room or morph brush.

The trick with the morprh brush is to choose the correct size brush, and follow the wrinkles while tightening to the new figure.

And with the fitting room? To fit the clothing, and to pull the wrinkles back in the clothing with the morph brush after the fitting

The combination of the fitting room/morph tool is just wonderful, especially the morph tool.  It's nice to be able to handle more and more morphing tasks directly in Poser.

Quote - Existing conforming clothing with wrinkles can smooth out with the fitting room or morph brush.

...however, I am wanting to do just the opposite... ADD wrinkles.

Do you want them to be permanent or just show up when the clothing bends?

Quote - Short of taking the whole mess into the cloth room and doing a full conversion (defeats the reason for using conforming clothing)?

In my humble opinion, defeating the reason for using conforming clothing is a good thing. The only thing conforming has going for it is that it's convenient - and once you've started tweaking and adding to it, it's no longer convenient and you may as well do the job properly. That is, by tweaking and adding to dynamic clothing. :)

That said, the morph brush is just that - a creator of morphs. If your clothing mesh doesn't have enough polys in the place where you want to add wrinkles, and if the original creator didn't put them in, it won't have, then you may not have enough mesh to add convincing wrinkles.

My vote would be for displacement maps, since these work on the micropolygon level and are independent of the mesh. These are not so easy to do, admittedly, unless you have a 3D painting app.

I wonder if a procedural node pattern for creases and smaller wrinkles, with a painted control map, to control the strength and distribution would work?

I don't think they would be convincing, except perhaps for small random irregularities; although that would be a useful thing to have, if someone wants to give it a go...

I'm assuming that basicwiz means the sort of major creases and wrinkles that are caused when the clothing doesn't fully follow the person's movements, and those would have to be done on a case-by-case basis according to the pose.  

Example.

Put a tee shirt on.

It looks pretty smooth against your skin.

Wear it all day.

Not smooth any more. THOSE are the wrinkles I want.

Those fine wrinkles can only be made by 3 things.

• A very "read" extremely high polygon mesh. Fine enough to morph those fine wrinkles in. => You need polygons to move at tiney detail level.

• A Bump Map or a normal map, both faking wrinkle displacement. (And I am not into "faking" ) LOL.

• A displacement map

For your option I would use a displacement map.

Correct JoePublic,  when building clothing, you can build them in the edgeflow.

But when working with existing clothing, you only have the existing polygons to work with.

For the fine detail basicwiz wants, you can only go bump-normal-or displacement map.

Go displacement, unless your mesh is dense enough to cater for convincing wrinkles.

I've had some success in drawing out some larger wrinkles in photoshop.  I just rough in approximately where I want the major folds and wrinkles with a soft white brush over a black background then play around with that with smudge and blur to get a soft curve.

See example:

play with the horizontal and vertical, and bump to get the result wanted.

As Wim says ; a lot depends on the uvmap.

One option that doesn't seem to get explored often is to use the cloth room to create the morph targets for jcms, elbow bends, shirt bends... this could go a ways to add some realism. 

When running the sims you'd have to think smart in terms of what polygons to constrain and which to keep default, so as not to distort the overall clothing item too much.

Quote - Even a relatively low poly mesh will drape fairly well in a cloth sim. 

One option that doesn't seem to get explored often is to use the cloth room to create the morph targets for jcms, elbow bends, shirt bends... this could go a ways to add some realism. 

When running the sims you'd have to think smart in terms of what polygons to constrain and which to keep default, so as not to distort the overall clothing item too much.

In order for clothing to have JCM wrinkles, it has to be rigged as a super conformer, and then the wrinkle morphs ERC'd to those morphs. Because conforming clothing follows the figure, but the translation dials remain at zero, so just putting wrinkle morphs in the joints doesn't work because there's nothing to trigger them.

At least, thats the only way I've ever been able to make them work. If there's an easier way I'd love to hear about it. It's a very rarely covered topic, so its pretty much impossible to find a lot of info about it and the stuff that is out there for it is extremely dated, so a lot of it doesn't apply to newer versions of Poser.

The cloth room is a great tool for creating those morphs quickly tho.

~Shane

Quote - > Quote - Even a relatively low poly mesh will drape fairly well in a cloth sim. 

One option that doesn't seem to get explored often is to use the cloth room to create the morph targets for jcms, elbow bends, shirt bends... this could go a ways to add some realism. 

When running the sims you'd have to think smart in terms of what polygons to constrain and which to keep default, so as not to distort the overall clothing item too much.

In order for clothing to have JCM wrinkles, it has to be rigged as a super conformer, and then the wrinkle morphs ERC'd to those morphs. Because conforming clothing follows the figure, but the translation dials remain at zero, so just putting wrinkle morphs in the joints doesn't work because there's nothing to trigger them.

Thank you for addressing that missing detail.

Quote - You can get in some cases some reasonable results with procudurals and a bump map. It depends on how the uvmap is layed out.

Just to clarify: Procedural textures do not follow the UV map.  That's their most basic property.  They follow the mesh or (when they have the option) global coordinates.  That's why that example has no wrinkles on the top, though the UV map there doesn't change.  You can tell when nodes refer to UV map positions because they'll refer to U and V.  If it's x, y, and z, then it's spatial coordinates. 

As an example, if you use procedural textures on a skirt that has a train, it will change from the vertical skirt to the horizontal train, even if it's all one UV map.  In my experience, you can get away with it if your wrinkles aren't too strongly directional, but it's really obvious if they are.

And actually, you can tell that a lot of merchants make their movement morphs with dynamics, though probably not Poser's. 

Actually Poser dynamic cloth is better than most high-end program I know of...

Normal map is fine for internal detail, but looks fake if the geometry is smooth on the edge without actual displacement manipulation of the mesh, so for wrinkles, displacement is better, and even more so if you combine with normal maps, but not normals alone.

Normally I would have agreed with you but Poser does not take kindly to displacement maps. (Even with adjustment for the gray scale). Only fine details work, but there normal maps works as well if not better. One of the great things with normal maps  is they is show in the preview.

It's very good in many respects, with many features I appreciate.  But it's also limited in other respects.  People using the big three I know of, Maya, Max, and C4D, have been able to do things you just can't do with Poser's cloth.  Even Blender, which I use, has significant weaknesses compared to Poser, but has many more capabilities Poser simply doesn't have.

For example, most systems allow you to weight map your cloth, so you can control how dynamic it is. Poser can do that for the much more inaccurate soft body simulations (which they've said explicitly is too inaccurate to use on clothing, as has been my experience), but not on cloth.  Just being able to smoothly transition from constrained to dynamic would be a great advantage. 

That doesn't even get into raw quality issues.  I've tried many things that should have worked in theory, but even taking the steps per frame to 40 didn't make Poser's calculations work right.  Conversely, I've been able to do very fine work in Blender.

IIRC, AlfaSeed use Maya, and it's pretty obvious they build  their stuff with dynamics.  They don't work with Poser dynamics at all.  If Poser's tools could give them better results, I'm sure they'd use them.

I use displacement maps in Poser all of the time with no problems.  Which isn't unique; I learned from tutorials by people like Stonemason.  3Dream's displacement based hair products are doing quite well in the market.  What problems have you had with them?  I'd really like to know if there's a usage I need to account for.

Aside from the annoying compensate for the gray scale, (Poser don't start at gray 128 as the others), the problem with Poser and displacement is twofold. For the first the displacement cracks open at the seams even if the mesh is perfect welded. For the second if you have several layers of cloth, the problem of pokethruu is bad enough without taking into account that cloth can be displaced to an other position.

You can easily set it to start at 128 via a math node attached to it. So you will have negative and positive displacement and will function the same. I have not experienced Poser giving me issues with this, even at the seams. If the area around the seams are identical in tone, there won't be splitting.

For the third option, with Poser 2014 ERC is not so difficult as it used to be. But to sum it up you make the morph as any other morph. Then use the Dependent Parameter Editor to drive it from the shoulder joint (for example). Now we have wrinkles controlled by a shoulder movement. All we have to do is to set up the Erc. If you called your morph Wrink_01, search by that name in the cr2 file and you will find something like this in the beginning of the file,

valueParm Wrink_01
{
name Wrink_01
initValue 0
hidden 0
enabled 1
forceLimits 0
min -100000
max 100000
trackingScale 0.004
keys
{
static  0
k  0  0
}
interpStyleLocked 0
valueOpKey
Figure 2
rShldr:2
zrot
beginValueKeys
valueKey 0 0
valueKey 78.5 1
endValueKeys
}

Change
Figure 2
rShldr:2

to
Figure 1
rShldr:1

Done!

The time is 0:40 here in Sweden I have to go

I use a bit of postwork.  getting slowly better at it.  If you search for kurt lundqwist in the gallery - he is the master of drawing wrinkles and foldes.

I do like it though when the content I buy has some wrinkles and folds modelled in.

Love esther

Another beautiful day!

Thank you Estherau for the tip about Kurt Lundqvist (lundqvist not lundqwist). A wonderful artist! True. I don't know anything more boring than a render without post work. Used any dynamic cloth lately? You have also right in what you say, "I like dynamic cloth but only if they have details like thickness and pockets, seams and belt loops and the like". The trick in making this details come to life with dynamic cloth is to make them with morphs. Run the simulation without morphs and add them when the dynamics are finished. Then you have the best of both worlds.

It is important that there is a conforming version of the set. It is easier to compose the scene with conforming cloth but at the very last minute you switch to the dynamic version.

Attached Link: I think the prison clothes with blue Teeshirts are about half way through this episode

I once tried to use dynamic clothes for a prison scene with multiple figures, and I set a few of them up at a time. I found a problem when I tried to import all my PZ3s into the same scene, presumably because of same names of figures mixing up the dynamics. It was an epic fail and I went back to conforming with post work for those scenes.

I loved the episode and the wrinkles on prison t-shirts looks good! I understand dynamic cloth doesn't really fit in with a cartoon serie with a tight time schedule. The quality of the dialogue is overall excellent. "Hmmm, maybe I am gifted after all", hmmm maybe! ;)

Thanks

you are right about timelines.  making a comic is so hard. to even get out one page can take me weeks at times.

sometimes I will dynamic just a part of the clothes like a sleeve or something. the eye is always drawn to detail.

I find the liquify filter amazingly useful for helping with postwork, although I don't think I had discovered it yet at the time when I did that prison episode.

I did sometimes use displacement maps in photoshop for creating wrinkles and folds, but it is far quicker to draw them.

@Esterau, for "worn" wrinkles as the OP asked, try the bump trick Wim and I posted with some turbulence maps in the bump channel on the clothing.

I use both; the bump&turbulance for "worn" wrinkles, and displacement for more "fold" like things. (Have not tried Normal maps yet, but that would give you even a third channel to work with)

But in the meantime I'm getting so much better at drawing in the wrinkles and folds.  Now whenever real people are near me I find myself studying their clothes wrinkles.

I wouldn't mind drawing in some of my hair too.  But i can't achieve the certain look that I want as yet. probably because photoshop brushes aren't suitable for it.

On that anomaly comic I notice they said they draw all of their hair.

Now Vilters,

if you were a really good friend you'd pop over to my house and help me with poser.

Love esther

Ha- ha-, a nice one, Esterau.

What is it? Only 15.000 miles to go? ?

Ok, I'll be there by 2020. LOL.

Oh, bummer, I can not swim. . . .

you can fly though.

either that or you've been giving me bad advice about helicopters and planes all these months, and my scenes are all wrong in my comic.

Yes, you should have used a submarine to fly that over. LOL.

I'll put the kettle on.

Seriously I will try that turbulance thing.  Just send me a screen cap of the material nodes and I should be able to replicate what you do.

Tutorial ;, LOLOLOLOL

1. Open Left eye
2. Open Right eye
3. Goto page 1 of this tread
4. Look for Vilters post, around the middle of the page. (Not the first, not the second,. . . but the one below Wim's post)
5. Click to enlarge picture

Nodes are there. LOL.

Tea- time?
2 sugars please, no milk, thanks. LOL.

it's getting cold. Are you dawdling again.

okay thanks for the tutorial.