That a valid point Cin, and one reason why such a thing as quality control would be good. In the end with this sort of thing though, there are ways to test that don't involved guilds. This and other sites have such facilities already built into them. The forums, the freestuff. It's not hard to find people who will be more than happy to help you, to test your files, to talk to, to help you. It's this that puzzles me but I promised Mehndi that I'd hold off and I will do that. I can see what you're saying and it's true. It would be nice if there was some way to guarantee quality of an item before purchasing it. That in a way is what reviewers are for and InDepth are starting down that path, even DAZ are willing to let people review their products and that's quite a feather in InDepth's cap. I personally use people I know from this and other forums to test my stuff before I release it into a freestuff area. I have a character out at the moment being tested that I'm quite proud of and with any luck it'll be worthy of freestuff. I can understand the need for quality control and it is reassuring to know that some such system were in place. There are lots of proviso's for that though, lots and lots and lots that must be answered before something like that could be accepted and recognised by the community at large and vendors in particular. There has been too much of a certain type of behaviour over the last few months and there are some serious questions to answer to make sure that certain types of behaviour do not continue, will not occur and how certain attitudes will be "policed". Anyway. Yes, quality control would be good. That way there wouldn't be a need for anyone to post in any forum "I bought this and it's bleeding awful!" It would be nice too if customers made sure they read the onscreen and text documentation when they purchase something but it's not a perfect world I suppose. Vendors will question a "quality control" system very strenuously and will be wary of it for more reasons than just that it might call their goods into question. There's always going to be people who will hurl the accusation "You only object because you promote the existence of crap in the stores" when that is blatantly untrue when used against people with valid concerns and worries about their own products that ARE of high quality. There are lots of other issues in question as well so it's not just that vendors don't like the idea, they're genuinely concerned about a number of issues. A lot of people haven't responded to this thread who could have because they don't want anyone to think they're attacking Mehndi, her idea or being "against quality". This is a shame because I know some of those people don't intend that at all and are staying quiet for all the wrong reasons. A quality control concept really needs to be torn apart from every possible angle, it must have everyone rip it to shreds, accuse the originators of the foulest of motives and ideals and principles. Not because it would start a nice fun flame war but because the people involved with quality control will be on the front line and come under fire from consumers and vendors alike when something screws up. If they can't take the heat in a thread like this, they're never going to survive as quality control inspectors. There are so many factors involved that it's impossible for me to detail them here. And I'm not going to start voicing opinions and asking questions again. I'm reserving those. G We do need a quality control system otherwise people of lesser principle than you will sell what they think is "great" but is in fact utter garbage because without a level of quality stated it's impossible to refuse even the most simplistic objects. A tube with a ball on top could be sold as a pedestrian crossing lamp but no work has gone into it, yet there is nothing wrong with it. Even if I paid 1 dollar for something like that I'd be seriously pissed. :) Having said that, there might be people out there who would happily pay 5 dollars for that tube and sphere - if the textures are good, there is a certain level of detail, a certain level of "quality". See what I mean? Quality standards must exist, as must a logical standard of goods and value for money. Quality is good, arbitrary judgement is bad. Whooo, that was harder to write than I expected. I kept having to backspace so as not to break my word about asking questions. G

Those standard you are speaking about already exist in the stores, Cin, therein lies the rub of the whole situation. Items must have the correct Poser folder structure, textures cannot have seams, they must do exactly what they are supposed to do. Everyone has the right to put their merchandise up for sale. As a consumer, we all have thee right to check for feedback on the items, check the best sellers lists, and judge for ourselves. I don't need anyone to do my shopping for me.

"buyer beware" Pariah? That's not nice. :) No, seriously. If it's down to the customer to research store quality goods and the store allows a vendor to review opinions before posting them to the object what are the chances of a vendor allowing "poor" reviews on their product? I'd say zero chance. Complain about a product in certain forums and you'll get your arse chewed out with lots of "contact the vendor" comments. Even when having done that and gotten no or an unsatisfactory response, god help whomever complains publicly. Sometimes they get away with it. Mostly not. OK, there are certain safeguards. As you yourself are aware, there is a level of quality control at 3DCommune, a level that is set by the testers that fits in with how unhappy they would be over purchasing a faulty file. As you say, seams, structure, detail etc. There at least, the customer "can" be guaranteed a level of quality. I do not know and cannot speak for Renderosity or Renderotica stores, but one would think that people testing would look at it and think "Would I be happy with that if I bought it?" You say that there already is sub-standard stuff in the stores. A generalisation because you don't tell us what is sub-standard. Now if there was a way to look at something and say "Oh that's a good brand I'll buy that." Wouldn't that be a good thing? Allowing a store itself to set that quality seal is in itself a mistake because the store is reliant on income and cannot be trusted to the level of quality that some expect. That's why industry has watchdogs and quality inspectors. Now, having said that. Most vendors already have in place a system of testers, people who inspect and play with their goods before it's submitted for store approval. So, why does sub-standard stuff slip through? Is greed more important than customer satisfaction and quality? Quality is good isn't it? You do agree don't you? So, wouldn't it be better then if each store created a guild of it's own, from it's best artists. Not those who sell the most, that's just bullshit, but those who are the best modellers, the best texture creators, pose makers and also looked in their community itself for people who could be trusted to NOT share stuff as warez and call these into a "site guild" so that these people could monitor the quality and integrity of the files going into the stores? Yes a site hosting a store is reliant on that store for it's survival, but they also must be careful about a "quality approved" item because it's THEIR reputation on the blocks. So like the example above. The tube and sphere get rejected. But the sphere and tube, with the extra detail, textures and added excellence would get through. Hey, someone somewhere might need it. :) That way there wouldn't be a need for mucking around with things as the existing infrastructure and members list is being used, InDepth can carry on writing their reviews and holding the gun of "That's crap" to the heads of the online stores and we all win. Ahhh, but then people would say "But the site can't be trusted because they're biased." Well yes, but at the moment there is not Site guild that meets this need. And the site could not weigh the members in their favour because then their integrity comes into question, their honesty and a whole bunch of other things. I personally think that it would be a damn good idea for the online stores to do this. Because it states a "faith in the product" that puts their own necks on the line.

Pariah - by those standards then what I had thought about selling would have been fine... my directories were all laid out how they should be, none of my textures had seams, I even had MAT files that worked to change the coloring on certain parts, I had multi-materialed parented props that would've loaded for P4Female and P4Male, but it was still not very good in my oppinion, and I'm the one that made it... maybe I'm too critical of myself... I'll shut up now... at this point I think it's at that "wait and see" stage, and I'll bite my tongue (which hurts... there's metal in there!).

Just another two cents worth here...there are stores, such as Daz and 3dcommune that already put the products through some very rigorous testings. Some vendors also have very good testers before they even reach the stores and then are tested again before being put up for sale. So please don't be lulled into thinking that all stores have the same standards, nor do they even have the same commission structures for their vendors. This is NOT the only store in town, believe me, although the way some people are carrying on you would think that it was. (grc hasn't been around long enough for me to comment on otherwise I would but if Diane is behind it I'm sure it's pretty strict also) The whole point of this is....there are already standards in place and what Mehndi is proposing is something that is already being done and being done very well at 3dcommune and Daz. Anyone that has ever taken the time to visit those stores and talked with those that have purchased the products from those stores will find very pleased consumers. Not that things don't go wrong because they do, but they are backed by very effective and efficient customer service. It all boils down to trust...how much do you trust the people that run any store? How much are you going to trust those people that run any guild? I see a lot of store bashing, and no actual constructive help offered...UNLESS it has been offered and refused, which is quite possible. If that is the case, we must as members wonder why the refusal.... Another seal of approval? I would rather see better customer service and know that if I have a problem then it will be resolved quickly. This is beginning to sound more and more like not only a store bashing, but a vendor bashing as well in the guise of a guild and for the good of the community. Right now after rereading all of the posts and the answers given, I'm starting to get a real creepy feeling about this. The sharing of knowledge is already going on in the form of Art School forums and Poser and Bryce 101 forums. It's all there for the asking, if people would just participate. So how does this sound? Better that we start putting limitations on who can go into the store by the way of free stuff....as in okay you want to go into the store? You have to do a stint of one month of freestuff first, to make sure that your skills and products are in fact up to par. To me that would actually make more sense. After that, the products go into testing and if it is quality work, it goes into the stores. These are just observations and suggestions..nothing more. Mehndi....why this answer? <<Heya Leggs Akimbo... I always did wonder that about Amish folks, why they will use technology so long as they are not owning it? Like running over to use the neighbhors phone instead of owning one ;) It was a very mysterious thing to me. Be that as it may, I have more respect for your faith despite it's mysteries to me, than you evidently have toward us.>> You ask for respect from someone that you show none to. You managed to lump all of the Amish faith into one paragraph..you have no respect for them apparently, not from the first few remarks of your post. That rather read like an attack and in light of the subject of the post, was really quite irrelevent. tsk, tsk, and up until then you were doing so well. Pendy

TJ, to clarify you do have to be a merchant to see the Best Sellers Last 30 Days sort in the store.

....egads...not again.....total bummer.......sigh

Um... it was in my market window, now its gone lol.

er nm... its not the same.. regular people only see best-sellers, which rotates, as it should. =)

<<The problem is, the things we wish to make vendors aware of in making their work simply are NOT being checked for in most stores. I know for a fact they are not.>> So you are basically speaking about the store testers at this store and not any other. How do you know that Daz would not accept this? A model of yours perhaps that was rejected or someone you know? Just wondering unless you are one of their testers that you would know this for a fact. So, all of this is aimed at this store and not any other, because obviously you can't speak about any other store since you have no experience with them as a tester. So you really have no idea if vendors are already being made aware of things like this, you are just assuming that you and the other people that want to form this guild (read here --> save the community because the stores sure aren't concerned about quality.. because the testers don't know what they are doing and they aren't good enough, and we as the best of the best need to save the community and weed out the bad vendors; the forums that are up now have no one qualified enough to help the vendors or new modelers or whatever take you pick and anyway they are doing NOTHING) apparently are the only ones qualified to inform them. Whether or not you mean to Mehndi this is really how you are beginning to come across..the more you talk the worse it sounds, I'm sorry. And this isn't elite thinking on your part? Ummm...okay.

I know for a fact Pendarian because I build models for Daz, and before they will accept any models we must co-planer the edges to remove any of those false shadow artefacts you see in the above. The above model by the way is a small part of a much larger model being build by Mehndi Studios for Daz, but it is not yet complete, and has not yet been submitted anywhere, except by proof of concept renders, which was enough to make it provisionally accepted at Daz in advance. The two stores I have experience with are Daz and Renderosity. On the one I tested. I was forced to release things that I could not in good conscious recommend to others to purchase, with many flaws in them. The above illustration was a type of flaw that frequently cropped up. My models may bear the flaw in the beginning just as does many others, but the difference is, before I finalize the model, it will be cleaned of all such artefacts. I know how Daz tests from working closely with Daz, and managing to "make the grade" time after time now :) How many here can say that? So, how many major stores are there? 4? I have first hand experience with 50 percent of them. Dmentia has first hand experience with even more, since she submits items to your store :) Thorne with 100% of the "major" stores ;) I would say together we are at 225% ;p Is that enough experience yet? There are differences in 3d Commune and Renderosity, Pendarian. You guys are well known for turning away things that Renderosity accepts. That is a recognized fact. No one is attacking you, so in my best happy smiling friendly face, I say down boy! (or girl sorry not sure which you are). :) Oh, one more thing, there is a hole in the texture map of a hair product that is currently for sale in your store, if I recall correctly where the "template uv mapping" underneath shows through ;) Caught that on testing here, but could not reject. Did you?

Well, as an admin of that store I would sure appreciate it if you would email me with the name of that product so I can check it out myself. A "professional" favor so to speak.

Word has it your are conferring with JDK about this guild. Some may like Jack, some may not, I'm indifferent, BUT, Jack is a shrewd businessman with a great talent in making money. He's also the top drama queen for nasty site splits.<< ::Chuckles:: That's a pretty indifferent opinion there, Karl. As for the word that you've been hearing... uh, you should clean out your ears or recheck the source of the info that you've been getting, cause it is wrong. As for me being the top drama queen, I think you are only jealous because I look better in heels than you do Karl :o) LOL Jack

That would be girl :) Or rather woman. Whichever. Down girl? ummm I think not. I just want what is right for the community as a whole and I'm just getting creepy feelings right now, so I will state my opinion just as everyone else here has a right to state their opinion. If my opinions change and the creepy feeling goes away I'll state that also, I'm an equal opportunity type poster so not to worry. I realize that you are not attacking the 3Dcommune site, but at the same time when you say "stores" "sites" it kind of all gets lost in the shuffle you know? Questor so far I think has said it best in more then one of his posts..the possiblity of it creating an atmosphere of elitism and cliques..(which is already here) the decision not to use that which is already in place,I'm just not getting it either. Well Dmentia has had little experience with 3dCommune since JED split, and the store has changed quite a bit since then. Thorne, yes he has experience also but again, nothing new from him for quite a while either. So experience yes, but definately not recent. So much for percentages... Your last question, tough to answer I don't know which hair product you are speaking of. It reall is in bad taste and a breach of trust to our vendors, to reveal problems we might have found with someone's products,(especially in a public forum) however, whatever problems we find are fixed before its added to the store, and if the vendor doesn't know how to fix it - we show them how it's done. We are not afraid to say no, or fix this. That is our rep that is on the line just as much as the vendor and we are earning and deserve a stellar rep for the store there. We are also working with In Depth to have our products reviewed, so again, we are very quality minded. IF they find things that we did not catch, we will request from our vendors that the problems be fixed and then the new product file be uploaded to the store. They are all aware of this and happy about it because they know we have their best interests and their customers/members best interest at heart. I believe wholeheartedly that things need to change in the store here, I cannot fathom why you would not want to stay and help that happen with all of your talent and knowledge. The same with Dmentia and Thorne; It is just simply beyond my simple comprehension I guess. I'm not privy to everything that has happened so that is probably why I can't understand it. I don't want to fight or argue..I just want to understand..and right now I just simply don't. I have too many questions about this..I'll just have to wait and see like everyone else and reserve judgement until then.

ROFL Jack...yes if I remember correctly, you do look pretty darn good in heels :) He's got legs! Pendy

Heya Pendarian ;) Good morning Vietnam! But my friend, we ARE staying and helping change that, as you say :) Do you see us going anywhere yet? Even when being flamed to death? No, we just girded up into our flame proof underoos and trudge onward into "battle" to change all that ;) We do know that you all do have a fine rep for rejecting things that have problems. No one has ever said you did not ;) But we are also here to not call names of the places we feel are releasing poopie, since that is not our goal, anymore than calling the names of actual real live "this is who did it" names of the vendors themselves is our goal. I mean, once we thought about that, doing just that. "This is the poopie art!!! beware beware beware... and here is something free that is better than it." but would that really help anyone to get better? No, it would not :( It would be hateful, and it would not help any community, no matter how much that community or its store needs helping. We are not hateful people. We are not snobbish. We want to instead turn the frustration we felt into a good thing, a thing where we are able to do independent testing just like In Depth Arts (since more hands = more testing done) for those who wish that, and to mentor anyone who wishes to learn how to do better, via training and teaching. ALL are welcome in our effort. Anyone of any site and any store. Everyone from the Master level craftsmen with lessons to teach and a good heart with which to teach them, on down to the newbie who just bought Poser yesterday. Not a soul who wants to learn would be turned away. And we are not leaving or going anywhere to do this. We are not opening a store to do this. We are not forming a new community to do this. We are just going to do this, right here, in the middle of every community. A No Mans Land Truly Neutral Quality Movement that we chose to call Guild. We chose to call it guild because so many here have wished they could be in the Renderosity Merchants Guild, but found that "honor" or whatever it was, was closed to them. Our "Guild" is open to all, and all are welcome :) We hope you will be a part of it too Pendarian, since items tested by In Depth Arts, and by us too, will get you twice as many tested and certified items on your store shelves :)

OOOOooo Pendy, you always did know how to make a grown boy blush :o) Jack

I wasn't aware you were prone to over-exageration Mehndi. Flamed to death? What part of this thread is flaming you? I see some questions, a few complaints and some observations, certainly nothing that qualifies as a "flame". A bit melodramatic don't you think? Now, you want to see what a flame is like, please have a look around in C&D, there's some nice warm bar-b-cues in there. :( I'm getting confused again. You're not here to call the names of the poopie places, so you generalise and tar ALL the stores with the same brush which by default must include the DAZ store too seeing as they too are profit oriented and reliant on getting stuff "up there". If you are not generalising, then may I respectfully request, unless you are prepared to point your finger, you drop the "store poopie" nonsense and concentrate on the mysteries of your guild. It's so easy for people to generalise and tar everything with the same accusation and then play innocent. Please, if you are not accusing Daz or 3DCommune, then that only leaves a few others. If you're not careful you'll start getting into the realms of slander because a lot of vendors have their own stores. Perhaps if you were to say that "there is poopie available somewhere on the planet for people to buy" it might be better than by saying "in the stores", and then saying you aren't pointing a finger because "in the stores" IS pointing a finger. A hard sharp finger that says "these places are selling crap"... You say they are, then say certain ones aren't, or might be but might not be, but... Hrrm. I'm sorry if I was a different person I would suggest that you are thrashing around trying to make accusations without actually saying anything. But I'm not like that, so I won't say it. It's nice to see that your Guild is going to be an active and resident part of ALL the existing communities, from PFO to Renderotica and all stops in between. That is excellent news. Really excellent. That means I suppose that all the artists and vendors and people of excellence who will be gathering under the guild banner will be helping everybody everywhere. :) I think that's admirable. It will be so nice to see the really good artists climb down here in the trenches and guide people towards the goal of excellence you hold so highly. Great news Mehndi. That's absolutely wonderful. I'm going to go off and crack a bottle of wine and celebrate. I was so worried that you were going to take people and leave and not use the existing forums and tutorial sections and there you've said it. You're staying. You're all staying. You're going to use these places to achieve your goal of a level playing field and quality. I am truly relieved. I look forward to the guild members posting their tricks, tips, secrets and guiding us (lesser) mortals in the arts of creating stuff. :)

Questor, when people speak to us as we have been spoken to, yes, I would call much of that flames. And you are not privy to all of it, unless you can reach closed forums, and see our instant messages, and read our personal emails. We have never said we are leaving, at any time done anything to imply that. So where some of these fears come from, I have no idea. We are already in the process of teaching in the merchants forum, where a discussion on "quality checklist" has now evolved into a "how to do this thread", with concrete examples given. We hope to soon have a site where we can post threads that are specifically geared to how to do certain hard to do tasks specifically. Even if I started one here in Poser forum in this current climate right now, someone would try to derail it by again throwing around fears and accusations, so till folks calm down a bit, all we can do is try to reassure folks in the Poser forum area. I cannot name names nor will I let myself be tempted to, since frankly, at this time, till you all get used to our ideas and presence, and we are not the topic of the week, ALL my words are being twisted to the intent of those who seek to thwart this effort. If I named names to clear the reps of some stores, the stores not cleared would yell. If I refuse to name names, people yell. No matter what we do, all are yelling. So I will stick with my gut instinct that I at least, no matter who else does, am not here to give concrete examples by naming names. Many of the same artists sell in all stores anyway. So it hardly is an absolute that one store is necessarily better than another, or worse. Some stores reject more, when it has problems. That IS an absolute that can be stated :) Now, the sooner everyone settles down and lets us actually get in some working time, the sooner real concrete proof of the pudding will be out there in time for dinner ;)

No, we just girded up into our flame proof underoos and trudge onward into "battle" to change all that ;) They make Linda Blair underoos? (eg) =)

Not unless you know where to find them, Pariah.

If people are speaking to you in a manner that constitutes a flame, then report it to the site administrators as it is against the site TOS to do this and it is the DUTY of the site admin to put a stop to it - regardless of their personal feelings on any subject they are bound by their own TOS. I see some worried people in this thread but I don't see a flame, coupla sparks maybe. :) What is happening privately, as I said before I am not privvy to nor am I interested. That does not concern me. I am part of this thread and other than one warm moment above I have not flamed you, neither have many others. A generalisation again and I misread it to mean "here" not "in private". Sorry. You have not stated you were leaving, but you gave a strong indication you were. A place to go, a place where... and similar phrases used by you and Dmentia (who seems to speak with some authority so is presumably involved in forming this guild). You mention "controlled, operated and managed" and "that no fees are planned yet", surely you can see how these phrases and the overall tone of your posts about being fired for your ideas, unhappy with certain people would indicate you are leaving and taking as many with you as will follow your banner. That's what started me worrying. We've seen enough silly politics and site splits over the last couple of years without watching another one occur without trying to stop it. Sheesh, some people just can't step away from those splits and they keep on cropping up in comments and conversations all over the place. So the arguments, bitterness and spite is still very fresh in the minds of some people who can't let go of it yet. I for one don't want to see it start again, I'm heartily, thoroughly sick of it, so sick that I will probably hunt down and personally exterminate anyone that tries to do it again. :) I appreciate that you can't name names. That would start a whole string of insults, condemnations and provoke the very thing I want so desperately to avoid - a site split. I also appreciate that you can't voice any favouritism, for the same reasons. No, honestly I do understand that. But the generalisation of "poopie in the stores" is just as harmful and likely to get certain backs up in defence of those stores. It's probably safer to drop the "poopie in the stores" bit to be honest and actually focus on the guild purpose. You have elucidated that part of the reason for the guild's creation is to prevent the growth and spread of low-quality (does that sound better than poopie?) items through the community (see you don't need to mention stores or freestuff) This will be achieved through reviews, testing, tutorials and knowledge sharing. That's a good aim and it's being done now by many people in the existing forums. Your guild could continue to do that in a much more focused manner, again, that's good. No need for a "guild" though, not for that. Quality control. A group independant of the stores and the sites. Now this is where my ears perk up. There are already in place, people who work very hard to make sure quality goes in the stores. There is a matter of personal pride, which quite obviously you and Thorne have in abundance, that you would think would make people do the "best they possibly can" for their customers. It is my opinion that there are such artists who do that, and some who perhaps have a more vested interest in dollar return than value or quality. This comes down to a more personal thing than the store. As has already been mentioned, you can go into K-Mart, 7-11, Woolworths etc etc and browse around pretty much knowing quality from poopie. The quality items don't appear overnight at the say so of a group of marketing executives, they are established over years of hard work and customer evaluation. People recognise quality by brand name. Mercedes or Rolls Royce compared to Ford or Subaru, Jeep and Land Rover compared to Suzuki and Isuzu. And so on. Some vendors in the stores have built up a reputation over time for quality and excellence. People like PhilC, Steve Shanks, Renapd etc are known for the quality of their work, a stamp on their goods would make no difference whatsoever. None. You could turn round tomorrow and say "PhilC poser stuff sucks donkey breath" and nobody would believe it, because they know better. How is that achieved? I've known Phil, Steve and Rena to be extremely conscientious, unbelievable helpful and generous, and regularly see them helping people in the forums, I see copious amounts of free stuff from them too, so there's a base to judge their work from. They put as much hard work into their free files as they do their pay to get files. I use those three as an example because they're almost universally known, but there are many others who also fit that bill. There are also people who, 10 minutes after joining the community, asking a couple of "how do I" questions, hit the store bandwagon to make bucks. This doesn't mean their goodies are any less viable, they might have been working with other applications for years and only recently discovered poser and it's marketplace. There are many who need help, who desperately want to produce stuff they can give back or sell back to the community, but aren't getting that help except from a few people who are thinly stretched and hard pressed. Now, to be rude. All of a sudden you are going to form a guild of people who are going to change this situation. That's wonderful. Where were these people before? If they're already out there doing it, what are the benefits for them to joining a guild? Why would they need to? Why not just carry on as is? Why... Oh wait, I'm sorry, I said I wouldn't ask anymore questions yet. Ignore that lot. :) Again, I will state for the record. (and this is in reference to the guild "quality approved" thing and your references to "a place") Quality good, splitting of community into elitist sections bad. There's that word that Thorne has such a problem with. Yet "the best of the best" = elite. A panel (guild) of judges will determine what is worthy of a seal of approval and what is below standard (really amazingly great gets badge, other stuff doesn't) Granted that's a gross oversimplification but in essence it's like "Good Housekeeping" or the British "Kite" mark. It means "this is a quality approved product". But it also means - "that stuff that doesn't have this mark is utter crap, it's cheap, nasty and horrible." This could be messy in a place where there are so many fragile egos. Double blind is good, but what happens when a "top" artist is rejected? Have you seen Radarts scathing rant on elitism when he was told "you're not good enough" by a panel of self elected "best of the best"? Or the comments from artists when someone questions the quality of their goods? Some threads in the archives are still smoking from the heat. :) Quality is good. EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER DESERVES IT. Ever vendor should do their best to provide it. But who is to make the judgement? And are the judges worthy? I'm glad I'm not you Mehndi. I really am, I can say that with all honesty. Because you are exploring a can of worms that has a nuclear device on the bottom controlled by a mercury trembler switch. One error, just one error and it could all blow up in your face. I sure as heck don't envy you that responsibility. Well, as to settling down and letting you get on with things. I get the drift. I've been told to politely "shut the heck up" before. :) I'll try. No really, I will. Look ---> shutting up now. G

Questor, we MUST have a site devoted to this, for these practical reasons: Any postings on quality, be it general commentary or how to do stuff specifically will soon be lost and buried when posted here. We do not have a forum devoted here to "Quality", let alone to "How to do this". Nor on any other forum. So this is why for, for the very ease of which one may find the information, eventually a site is going to have to be made. This is not a splitting of a site, nor us leaving this site. It is in fact, no different than the vast number of other artists who host their tutorials on their own site, then link them at other places if they can find a place to link them, etc.

Well....this post is now so far back and "buried" it hardly has the "presence" it "should" have for such a signifigant thread...yet...it should have been moved to C&D long ago. Hmmm? I think I know why it was not but I will stay mum on that. I really didn't want to be here...not at all, I wanted nothing at all to do with this and I wouldn't even know if someone...some folks hadn't directed me to this thread yesterday already. I don't even want to add my two cents cause I know I will either get flamed, roasted or ignored totally....but remember this...I WAS "directed" here...there ARE plenty of folks VERY concerned!!! Why?? For good reason.... Let's talk...please....I wish to do this as "peacefully as possibly" cause I know this is like a small insignifigant gnat approaching a gang of hand holding spiders....but sometimes those with the least to lose are the best sacrifices....with all due respect I now leap into your webs...to accomplish what...I really don't know..?? Let me be frank here..... Ya know...this would actually be a fine thing...if it were about quality...about the community....about EVERYONE...if it weren't just a disguised form of getting rid of the little folks and making this surefire "money making" community something ONLY for certain self appointed big shots...attempting to create a monopoly for themselves... THIS is NOT about quality...it's about WHO will make the money...and you folks KNOW who the BIG wigs are and you BIG wigs have decided to "hold hands" for a "common cause" so you can all "reap the benefits" of the "wealth" here and NO one else or very FEW will benefit except those that REALLY COUNT!!!!! I don't really get this at all....the "cocky, ferocious attitude" alone overall here is enough to turn anyone off from this guild thing unless your an elitist egomaniac who already has a SURE foot in the door of this "castle of highbrows"....and this post should have been "moved" to the C&D long ago...and it hasn't...and I don't get it...I don't....or do I..?? Someone "directed" me here ya know....some did do that...there is much concern about...and me...I wouldn't even know or care cause I have no bounds on any store...but my gut feeling..."my gut feeling" is this is a lovely LOT for all those that "count" in this "club" and no one else....and that is what I see and others see and that partly comes from just the unfeeling, uncaring cockyness hereabouts in this thread....this will really help those self appointed ones here that wish to have a "monopoly" of "making MONEY" and only "them" making the "money"...(oh yeah)....not the community!!! And if "I"...who has very little to do with this charade can SEE this....you betcha that there is something very FISHY here! I thought a lot of you folks had changed...I even felt friendship towards some of you, (again),...I was fooled it seems, (again),...I was....dopy me...I thought folks were different...man...I was sooo wrong..it just got way WORSE!! Your all holding hands...and for money! I don't believe this!!! Can I call you greedy bastards without getting myself banned??! Probably not...so I will withold on that. Not that I don't reckon I will most likely be banned already or in big shit here for speaking MY opinion.... And you folks try to make it "for the community"...bah!...sure...always "for the community"...poppicock!! You's just want to get the most BUCKEROO'S out of this poser treasury here and all over as much as possible....nice plan...and you's just managed to find a new sure way to do it and make it sound so "caring" and sweet....but you forgot to leave out that egotistical arrogance! Poser has become a very LUCRATIVE business all around and this is just another very crafty take over scheme of the moneymaking kind....like there's not enough to go around...or what?? Like wtf?? Give the little folks a chance?? No way...too much at stake, a dollar here, a dollar there...this way you's can even pick and choose who counts and who don't...like some big grubby outfit of sharks...give me a break...wake up people, you don't have a light year!! I don't get it...you would think that at least you's wouldn't be so damn ARROGANT about it...how many folks like cocky attitudes...like c'mon....is it that sure a thing?? You folks sure think your all the cat's meow and everyone hasn't a prayer in hell without you's, that's what I see....so tell me...even if those that do COUNT for something...if they don't join...are they gonna be scum..?? That's what I see. I also see how eventually in time a few folks here will get bitten in the ass AGAIN...only who will suffer AGAIN...none of you big shots...nonono...of course not...it will just be the community having to pick up the pieces left behind, crumbs....to grow again and again and again.... Shame....now you's can take your pot shots at me....or just IGNORE me like crazy...just remember...I held back...someone else pointed me here so I am NOT alone in my thoughts here...NOT AT ALL....kill me off and there's others.....I just couldn't keep my mouth shut no more....this stinks....and I am outta this thread now....quality my ass...it's ALL about MONEY...and "who's" gonna be making it!!! I'll pat your back if you'll pat mine...very common phrase....eh...?? Whatever works for you's...... sigh Sorry there wasn't any nicer way to say all this....I really hate even being here on this thread......it reeks of arrogance, elitism, and subtle threats all through it,...read "between" the lines people's!!! Take care....be well....

We do not have a forum devoted here to "Quality", let alone to "How to do this". Nor on any other forum. By "every other forum" do you every forum on every site? Because I know of a Poser 101 and Bryce 101 forum on 3D commune which are there for "newbies" to ask questions without fear of mockery or of being ignored. Just trying to help you keep up on your facts so you don't look sillier err I mean silly.

As you can see, you folks think you are explaining yourself plainly, and I may see your posts as aggressive and acromonious. I think I am explaining plainly, and you see another thing. So we are all in the same boat. As to being fired, no, let me again attempt to clarify that matter. I was fired for the fact that when a rumour of the very very grassroots beginnings of this effort got leaked to the administration of this site, JeffH took issue with it up to and including a threat made by himself, repeatedly, to ban anyone he could locate who was involved. He then settled down to watch for anything that would look like this, so when I then made a post quite some time later that some folks were in the process of creating what at first was maybe a joke, called the Free Market, but now is very serious and could change the world so to speak we hope... he then pounced on that like a duck on a junebug and again began repeatedly threatening to ban, and who knows what else, since he said he had his "finger on the trigger". This to me is VERY alarming. That a person of such animosity in general and such abuse of power is in administration. I have complained repeatedly for months, as have others, of abuse of power by JeffH in the privacy of the "correct way" to do it, but nothing was ever done, except to try to silence me and to act as if it is me or others with the problem for doing the complaining, despite the fact his abuses of power have been perpetrated for months in front of all in the administrators forum. So, knowing full well that it would result in me being fired, I can no longer stand by and watch someone with that much power acting like that, and "blew the whistle" on him in public, and quoted what he has said, and the threats he has made. So the "official" reasons that tammymc gave for firing me seemed to be twofold in her letter she sent. That I had revealed to all the fact that JeffH is acting out. And that I was involved in this movement, which she feels is me making trouble for her store. Pity that. If it makes trouble for her store, then her store was in trouble already perhaps. Which brings me to another issue. People have asked over and over why this is not being done inside Renderosity, all this checking, testing, making sure everything is done right, etc etc etc, why we are not trying to "help" or whatever in some way Renderosity to get it right. The facts are that we have. And our quality concerns have been shoved under the table, over and over and over, and I have even been literally told, "worry about teaching someone how to do better later, this needs to be released now..." by one of the administrators. We were even forbade for ages and ages to make any commentary, tell anyone what might be wrong with their model or submission at all, unless it fell within that narrow list of things Renderosity checks for. Only after fighting to the point I was black and blue all over did I manage to even so much as gain the "right" for testers to make any comments in such a way as to help folks to make a better model, and that took a knock down dragout. So seeings as the battle has been lost, we move on to the war, so to speak, in a TOTALLY metaphorical way. This is not a site war, just to remind you. This is however going directly to the root of the problem, and trying to gather the artists themselves into a high quality initiative, and get them behind it, since it has proven to be impossible while I was a store tester to get anything done internally about it.

One other note, a large number of the people speaking so harshly against this idea have an agenda, as most of you are probably aware. They either work for Renderosity as testers, or somewhere else. So this must seem to them to be a personal attack on their testing abilities. It is NOT. It is though asking the artists to submit better material to those testers, since sometimes the testers would love to be able to reject things, but the guidelines of the store they work for refuse to let them.

Radart, though I know you mean well with your worries that this is some scam some of us are pulling to try to pull all the sales to ourselves or something, honey, it simply is not. Look at the quantity of merchandise Thorne, Dmentia and I have up for sale at any and all stores :) We do NOT produce all that much. We take weeks on each project we work on, sometimes months. So it is not like we have the ability to flood a store with things we have passed for ourselves and steal everyones money. It is not our intent even if we were flood market creators who whip things out a mile a minute. What this is, really and truly, is an OPEN invitation for all who wish to, newbie, novice, old pro, anyone, everyone, to join in a committed movement towards good quality, that bears a "seal" and a "name" since sometimes till movements bear a seal and a name, they are not movements. We want a revolution here, on quality alone, not on sites, not on folks sales, not to hurt folks sales. We want to HELP folks make things that will sell better, so they will make more money. We want to give others a chance to shine, be known for their high quality standards, even if they only arrived yesterday, and are totally unknown, but just happen to be producing excellence. I talk to anyone here, and everyone. There is no one I am a snob to Peter, you know that. Hardly an hour passes that I do not get instant messages, many from total strangers, asking me for help, or how to do something, or if they can learn from me, if I will help teach them as an apprentice, etc. I respond to everyone. You know that for a fact. You know you do. And I will help any and all who accept help and ask for it. So please stop thinking this is about hand holding spiders trying to make it so no one can sell 'cept their own selves :) It simply and plainly is not. If you need a metaphor, it is if anything, more us trying to form up a choir of everyone who will join in to sing with us, from those who cannot yet carry a tune, to our Opera Singers and Diva's to sing "Give Me That Old Time Religion" ;P

I don't get it. what's new I was going to read the whole thread, but I think I'll wait for the movie. EXCERPT FROM SECRET MERCHANT FORUM (NOT REALLY) "We need to do something about..." "Complaining?" "Fighting?" "Bunny slippers! Someone took my..." "um, no. Swords. There ARE a lot." "Huh. Have a sale?" "Put them on a CD?" "..I mean I just took them off for a minute..." "Who's fighting?" "We'd have to ask everyone who made them..." "...I'm gonna be, if someone doesn't give them back..." CONTINUED IN OUR NEXT THRILLING INSTALLMENT (NOT REALLY)

"One other note, a large number of the people speaking so harshly against this idea have an agenda, as most of you are probably aware. They either work for Renderosity as testers, or somewhere else. So this must seem to them to be a personal attack on their testing abilities. It is NOT." I have no agenda, other then to make sure to my satisfaction that what is being proposed is not yet another attempt by someone to split the community or make yet more money off of the users. If you want to call that an agenda, then done and done. So your assertion is that a large number of the posters have an agenda..that's pretty arrogant isn't it? Assuming that just because people are questioning, not attacking, but questioning and possibly disagreeing with you that they have an agenda? Maybe they just don't like what they hear, for no other reason then they just don't like the way it sounds, period. But stating that they have an agenda makes it so much easier to dismiss them and try to discredit them then answer their questions honestly...or just agree to disagree. I have full and complete confidence in my testing abilities, I don't need someone to pick on or to bash to know that I'm good at testing, because sweetie, trust me I am THAT good. So no agenda there either. Arrogance is such a fun thing, isn't it? Or is that confidence? I'm not sure :) You say you are staying, yet in the next breath you explain why you must not do it here. Okay...I thought that if someone started another site that meant they were leaving this site and doing what they could do here over there...I've been taking way too many drugs I guess. I have no clue why you place so much stock on the word "guild" or "seal" they are just words and have no real meaning if there is no substance behind them. It's as if by you using those words, it will automatically give those that are running it consumer confidence or the right to judge what is worthy of this "seal" by the "guild". In the end, all it is is just another bunch of humans that have rendered a decision, that's all, call it for what it is. It will not make me buy anything or think less of anyone. It will not give me more confidence, because in the end, unless you do have a store, it won't be you providing customer service or handling complaints, it will still be the store, the vendors that they are associated with. So for me and I'm sure others, the "guild seal of approval" will be nothing more then just another bunch of testers testing a product and telling me what they think of it. The fact that you and others are vendors themselves and can model or texture will really not make an iota of difference to me...UNLESS...I as a consumer already have confidence in you or whomever is testing that product. Then and only then will I think that you might actually know what you are talking about. It might at that point carry a bit of weight..but you will NOT make it or break it when it comes to my decision about buying a product...so..down girl with the ego, okay? About you being relieved of your duties here. From what I understand in your postings is that you did in fact reveal private information into a public forum. Even after you gave your word that you would not do so (the old it's a private forum and what is here stays here kinda thing) so you in a way, abused the power that you were given while privy to those forums. Unless of course everything that you say that he said was in emails, site mails or messages, then all bets are off of course. This is one reason why I have to look at what you say with some cynicism, you have already broken a trust. I wonder why you needed to do so, when you could have very well talked privately about it to your myriad of friends, aquaintences etc...I just don't understand that. Just like this whole guild thing. Why didn't you just go do it? Why did you feel the need to holler it from the rooftops so to speak as if you were riding in to be a saviour on a white horse to save the community from the sub-quality merchandise etc....and oh of course gone are the days that people have to prove their worth to the community..it's okay if you are a vendor and want to sell even if you have never given anything in freestuff etc..an apprenticeship so to speak, guilds are familiar with that sort of thing....I see no word of encouragement there, no building of integrity and honor and the need to build the community back up to what it was even a year ago, people coming in and building their reputation via freestuff and then honing their skills and then going into a store. Instead what I am reading it's all about money, "help them sell more" "get them make more money"....nothing at all about what a guild truely is. An exchanging of information and knowledge for no other reason other then a job well done...heck no, let's do it for the money.....because that is what matters, it's okay if we do it for the money as long as we say the stuff is quality. What is going to save the 3dcommunity is the installation of values, credit where credit is due, do not steal other people's stuff just so you can get into the store and sell sooner...that is the cancer that is eating away at the 3d community on the whole. If the only reason that you and whomever want to start this guild is to help others just so they can make more money then yes, I'm sorry I have to question the honor and the integrity of the people behind it. Your guild should be to help and foster where you can; not only to instill quality but also integrity and honesty and the meaning of doing a good job, being true mentors that show not only how to make a living from what you love, but to love the community that you make a living from. Not everyone that does good work sells everything that they make, some still give away for free. They remember what it was like when they first started out...what they took from others that gave freely, and the advice that they received. They remember what it was like to pay their dues and earn respect. Some will still make you a model if you ask and ask for nothing in return, no dollar signs flash in their eyes. You also teach these things to those you want to help, then yes, I will call you a Guildmember and have some respect for you. Deb

I've been reading all the threads dealing with this "guild" for a couple of days now. The whole thing gives me the heebie jeebies. Sorry, but that's how I feel. How benificent you all seem to be...looking after us poor people who seem not to know what we are doing because we are not Best Sellers. I was led to believe that I would never have an item accepted at Daz until I had the "Help" of a more well known artist. So we started working on a project together. Let me tell you this project was like pulling teeth. I had to keep reminding this artist that I needed help. Anyway, that is all academic now. I submitted my OWN project to Daz...and surprise, surprise...it was accepted. All on my own. So I guess I just proved to myself that I didn't need this particular artist to get a "foot in the door". Granted, my product isn't nearly as fancy as her's...but I guess it was good enough for them :) I have never been a big seller here at Rosity...never could figure that out as I think my ladies are lovely...but don't we all think our products are great. Too bad they get burried under so much JUNK. I know for a fact that there is an item for sale in the store that has NO right being there as it was when I tested it. But you all seem to be of the "Buyer Beware" School of Thought. Shame on YOU!!! Simple as my ladies are, I have yet to have any kind of complaint about any one of them. I do the job right...everything works right. Files unzip correctly...and everything works as promised. So now you want to tell me that I need YOUR help?? I don't think so. Sorry folks, but I feel we are being led to believe things that just aren't true. This whole "Guild" thing is a total joke in my eyes. Just another bid for a takeover. As for the project this artist and I were working on...I consider it a dead deal. All I have to say on that matter is that I had better NEVER see it at Daz under HER name...cuz little as I contributed, I DID contribute...and I will not see my work bastardized.

Pendarian, when you all assume we have an agenda, do you not see where sooner or later in time, we turn and begin to look for your agenda?

Pendarian, on the latter part of your message, the part about teaching, giving, helping others, making things for others without cost, all of this, I already do. I have since my first week here, always to the best of my ability.

Destiny, shame on you.

No Liz...SHAME ON YOU...you led me to believe I would never get into Daz without your help....well I did...My poor simple work MADE it....without any help from YOU. YOU are the one who should feel shame. See...I never mentioned any names...you took that upon yourself. I may be simple...but I am NOT stupid.

Karen, since you make these accusations, I assume then it is ok for me to put out into the public all of the emails and instant messages ever exchanged between us, so that you can show me where I ever said this to you or led you to believe this in any way? You know what I see here? A lady who was willing to suck up to me, appeal to my generosity and sense of pity to work with her, so that she would get into Daz by riding my coat-tails when you thought that was the way in. Instead, I told you that YOU are good enough by yourself to get there, over and over and over. And told you to not give up. To submit and keep submitting. Told you to keep working on getting in, to believe in yourself. And lo and behold, I was right. You did get in. Now suddenly, you do not need me. The sad thing is Destiny, you never did need me. Nor anyone. You only feared you did, and so you have used me. Shame on you Destiny.

Screw you Liz.... you are real good at twisting things to make you look like the poor forsaken one. I know better. I NEVER sucked up to you sweetie....so get that straight. And your coat tails seem quite tarnished to me as of late. You want to make people think they need YOUR seal of approval to get in to any store...well they DON'T...all they need is guts and the feeling that they believe in what they created. I thought you were a friend...HA!!! You are just a user. I've read many things about you in the past few days..NOT pleasant things. I always felt like my work was worth less than nothing. Finally I am feeling that maybe it's worth a little something...sure, it's simple, but it is ALL mine. How DARE you make it look like I rode your coattails to get it where it is now. Is this how you will treat anyone who comes to your new guild seeking help? If so..God help them. The Shame isn't on me Liz...I am but a simple texture maker..the shame is on YOU for making people like me feel like they are not worthy. This will be my last post on the subject, and just take TigerLilly and delete any remnants of her...for that is what I am going to do.

No Destiny, no one ever made you feel like you needed me. You felt that way your own self. You were always grateful seeming, always so careful to put on such a show of gratitude for the project we were working on together. You know the real irony here, is that you admit that you feel the store is full of crap burying your good work. Well, actually it is. That is our whole point. The same thing is happening to alot of good artists Destiny, not just you. You are a large part of why this battle is being waged. How badly I have felt to watch you feel the way you do day in day out. I believe you have let your acceptance to Daz suddenly go to your head, and now suddenly recall how you did think you needed others, and confuse that with thinking they led you to believe it. You are a confused woman Destiny, we all know that, but no one here would ever abuse you for it.

All? I hope you dont pretend to speak for anyone but yourself.

Definately you are not speaking for me Mehndi, my opinion of Destiny is quite different then yours. And I think everyone else is also quite capable for speaking for themselves. Cheap shot Mehndi, very cheap shot.

And here I thought two guys arguing was entertaining... whew... I can feel the heat from here... One thing though... like TJ says, please don't include me in "we all" part... I happen to like Karen :o) Jack

Pendy, not to detract you from this at all, how about we exchange shoes for a bit, these heels are killing my feet and I do so much enjoy seeing you in them more... wow, talk about gorgeous calves and thighs!!! Opps sorry... got distracted a bit there :o) Jack

You know what Destiny, you win. I have no fight left in me for this battle anymore dear. I will do as all say I do anyway, and just go right back to what I do best, developing and selling things, for my own profit and my own gain, and forget trying to ever help anyone here. No one needs help, you have all said so very plainly. Thank you for your time in letting me know :)

Oh Jack honey...I thought you'd never ask!!!

Would you like for me to break out the strawberries -n- cream, you know how I like that :o)

Can we have chocolate tonight too? You know that's my favorite ;)

MMmmmm... anything you want, darling, anything you want!!! You know me, I am flexiable.... very, flexiable... :o)