Hi folks. As some of you know, in the past week we've had a couple of threads get locked by AmbientShade because of excessive arguing by some participants. Some arguments were started by trolls, and some were by people feeding the trolls. By now, everyone should know the rules about trolls:

1. Never expose them to sunlight

2. Don't get them wet

3. No matter how irritating they become, never ever respond to them on a message board

I'd like to propose the "Take it to sitemail" campaign, assuming none of the mods or admins have a problem with it. Basically, all it is is an attempt by all the peaceloving people of the forum to squelch an argument before it gets to heated by encouraging  the participants to take up their argument privately by sitemail. You see an argument breaking out just post "Take it to Sitemail, please!" I believe if enough of us do that, we could squelch a lot of arguments before they get too heated and end up getting the thread locked.

I think it will work on a good number of arguments that break out here in the forum and for the few that we can't arrest, I think we should be quick about notifying  a moderator of the argument, particularly when the arguing starts becoming personal.

Finally, I try to live by one simple fact when I post in these forums. I might LIKE a lot of you guys, but I don't personally KNOW any of you guys. So what you all think, while I might respect your opinion, in the long run doesn't really mean squat to me. So if you do find yourself in an argument with someone, and they just can't or simply refuse to see your side of things... LET IT GO! Let it go! i am one with the wind and sky. Let it go, let go! You'll never see me cry! :)

It's an excellent idea. 

Not sure if parties intent on arguing will change just because we all post "take it to sitemail". But notifying the mods the moment we think it necessary to remind folks -- and by "we", I mean "you" (because you're a natural peacemaker, and I'm not) -- may really make a difference. In any case, some people will get the message. So it's worth doing.

Perhaps we could make some "Take it to sitemail!" banners to post. Make it fun! (I'm not kidding.)

Anyway, I have to admit the one quarrel I got into recently, I actually thought the other party was joking, right up until the last few posts. If I'd listened to your timely calls to stay on topic, it would never have got that far. :)

Well it is worth a try but I must admit to being sceptical for a couple of reasons.  In one of the recent locked threads more than one person suggested the combatants should use site mail but it was ignored.   The reason is simple, a lot of the arguments are about ego and posters proving they are right so doing it 'behind closed doors' does not massage the ego.

Another good reason is that some people already do exactly that.  I am not the best at explaining myself and more than once I have been emailed either correcting me or looking for clarification.  On each occasion there was no argument and a good humoured debate followed with both parties seeing each other's point of view and no one worrying about who won.  Of course these are the consederate people and, by and large they do not need rules in order to behave and treat others with respect, it comes naturally to them.

On a rare occasion asking someone to take it to site mail might work by making them think before replying but it, I suspect, it will have no effect on trolls or inconsiderate people.

For once however, I really do hope I am totally and utterlly wrong.

Will it work?

On trolls, no. Because trolls want an audience. A private convo is pointless to them.

But on those who feed them? (And I'm guilty of this) Maybe.

Some pleading to stay on topic, or hinting that it's time to stop, or prediction that the thread will be locked may not work on even a majority of people.

But if we know it's a dedicated campaign, and you see five people all posting the same thing (TITS -- I just noticed the abbreviation... Hah), and it becomes habit, maybe it will work over time.

Worth a try, anyway.

Well, if they think about it and stop... fine, it works. And if they don't stop arguing, then we hit them with the moderator brick. We, in effect become the eyes (and ears) of the moderator. And if people know that we will turn them in to the moderator, they will monitor their own behaviour a little better. And the mods don't have to work so hard as to get frustrated and worn out with the job.

it may not work.  they may have each other blocked in sitemail.

It might have some impact but I suspect only on rational people and rational people are not the problem.............still worth a try though.

I fear this will not work for some very simple reasons.

An offender starting a fight, wants to fight @ win, and will continue posting in public.

A troll that starts to troll ; That is his/her sole purpose!!!! 

Trolling in private does not bring the same "satisfaction", they need the audience and they drive on the attention.

this would work.... if the trolls played by the rules.

but.. they don't. hence the problems in the first place. why should they listen to this, if they ignore the rules of the site in the first place? remember.. they don't care. it's what they want. feck the rest.

Quote - I fear this will not work for some very simple reasons.

An offender starting a fight, wants to fight @ win, and will continue posting in public.

A troll that starts to troll ; That is his/her sole purpose!!!! 

Trolling in private does not bring the same "satisfaction", they need the audience and they drive on the attention.

It may, or it may not. Won't hurt to try. Ultimately, the real threat here is the moderators, and bringing them into it. But the POINT is to keep the threads from being locked. Some one comes trolling, we notify a mod and let them deal with him. Yeah, the trolls may be hard to control, but once again, if no one feeds the trolls they'll go away.

have you actually been reading the forums in the last year? not a trolling question, but a real one. the pattern is rather clear.....the trolls are not afraid of the mods. there. someone's said it.

Why should they be? Sounds like everybody around here is afraid of them. The trolls are going to be here regardless. So the options are to do nothing and let them ruin the message boards for everyone else, or let the mods know who and where they are. Obviously, it will be up to the mods to shut them down. We're just the Neighborhood Watch.

not afraid. I just gave up. got more to occupy me than fighting trolls on the internet. like wrist surgery, my fathers illness, work, a game called Ingress, work... why bother with a forum where the trolls run free? so much more out there.

The trolls don't exactly run free here. But they do get threads locked. I suspect a lot of that is because a mod doesn't step in at the right time. But I don't blame the mods for that. They can't read everything all the time and be up to the minute 24/7. So that's the advantage of EClark's idea: Neighborhood Watch, indeed. :D

And why fight for a forum? Because, despite disagreeing on some fundamental points with some of the still active folk around here, I actually quite like many of 'em, and they have useful things to say that help me become a more productive user of Poser.

The mods do have a pretty good idea* who the problem members* are. It's not as cut and dry as just removing them. Cases have to be built against them and certain steps have to be followed and that takes time. When people engage in arguing with them it makes our job of building those cases that much more difficult and causes more problems which can actually prevent us from isolating and removing problem members sooner and puts you at risk of being added to the list of problems.

That's why I keep saying do not argue. Do not feed the trolls. I know that everyone is guilty of it here and there including myself, but you're just making things worse for yourself in the long run. Notify a mod or an admin and let us take care of it but do not get involved. If someone is being persistent and harassing then just step away and go find another thread to read or work on a project or do something that takes your mind off whatever argument is going on until a mod or admin can deal with the situation. That's why everyone has an ignore button. 

 *ETA: I want to clarify this by saying that you do not need to be a troll in order to still be a problem member. They don't go hand-in-hand, and some people here are wrongly accused of being a troll when that's not necessarily the case. Again that's why it takes time to figure out what the real problems are and see if there's a way to fix them first. 

I appreciate the concept of 'take it to sitemail' by the way. 

~Shane

EClark1894 : Excellent forward thinking and taking initiative.

Your Take It To SiteMail Campaign.

Is a killer weapon to add to are arsenal
,against those that want to disrupt are peaceful paradise here.

I have no doubt we shall prevail.

Never Surrender !!!

The trolls may ignore the take it to site mail posts, but those feeding the trolls may not. If the trolls aren't being fed, they hopefully will go away. Or at least stop trolling.

I am not sure what the definition of troll is, at least in this context.  If it is someone coming to the forum with the sole aim of having an argument then yes that does go on.  A lot of the locked threads have less to do with trolls and more to do with inflated egos and the inablilty to respect others.  By which I mean they did not set out to cause an argument but took things just a little bit too seriously, or personal, somewhere along the way.

Just to try and keep things clear, I am not against this campaign and I hope it works but I am not sure trolls are the biggest problem and that from someone who has had difficulty 'letting go' on some occasions.  In my case it was the age old problem of thinking I have not been uuderstood (it happens a lot) when I have been understood it is just the other party does not agree.  One of the last threads to get locked was, in my opinion, just like this as the individual kept repeating the same argument thinking that he had not explained himself and eventually he would and everyone would agree.  Not picking out that one individaul but highlighting the fact that I do not believe the person in question was a troll but was someone who, like me, had difficulty letting go at that point.

I do find things have improved for me with the occasional use of the ignore button though so maybe, on occasions, we might like to refine the message and say take it to site mail or use the ignore button.  Down side of that is it spoils the abbreviation that was highlighted by moriador which I loved and totally missed.

Quote - I am not sure what the definition of troll is, at least in this context.  If it is someone coming to the forum with the sole aim of having an argument then yes that does go on.  A lot of the locked threads have less to do with trolls and more to do with inflated egos and the inablilty to respect others.  By which I mean they did not set out to cause an argument but took things just a little bit too seriously, or personal, somewhere along the way.

Just to try and keep things clear, I am not against this campaign and I hope it works but I am not sure trolls are the biggest problem and that from someone who has had difficulty 'letting go' on some occasions.  In my case it was the age old problem of thinking I have not been uuderstood (it happens a lot) when I have been understood it is just the other party does not agree.  One of the last threads to get locked was, in my opinion, just like this as the individual kept repeating the same argument thinking that he had not explained himself and eventually he would and everyone would agree.  Not picking out that one individaul but highlighting the fact that I do not believe the person in question was a troll but was someone who, like me, had difficulty letting go at that point.

I do find things have improved for me with the occasional use of the ignore button though so maybe, on occasions, we might like to refine the message and say take it to site mail or use the ignore button.  Down side of that is it spoils the abbreviation that was highlighted by moriador which I loved and totally missed.

I appreciate the ignore button although I pretty much never use it for one simple reason... the "Quote" button cancels it out. And you end up attributing  that quote to the person whose post you read it in, rather than the actual person who said it. For those of you are saying we're not going to totally stop the arguing, no we're not. I fully expect to violate the rule myself someday. Hopefully though someone will tell me to take it to sitemail and I will realise what I am doing and stop. And that's the point.

I agree with all those here as to why this will not change behaviour
 
People  who get emotionally involved in software/platform debates derive their Emotional Satisfaction from publicly Defeating their "enemy" while appearing brilliant and Erudite
to the forum spectators.

To do so privately defeats this purpose for them.

Quote - I agree with all those here as to why this will not change behaviour
 
People  who get emotionally involved in software/platform debates derive their Emotional Satisfaction from publicly Defeating their "enemy" while appearing brilliant and Erudite
to the forum spectators.

To do so privately defeats this purpose for them.

It takes at least two people to have an argument. Our goal is to get at least one side to stop arguing.

I would like to share a video with you, if I have 5 free minutes I think it's interesting to watch (english & spanish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut7IdSovP_E

You know, I've recently come as close to dying a cardiac death as any 42  year old non-smoking, non-drinking, non-overweight man can come.

I had a massive heart attack with 4 stents put in, one clot removed and all due to undiagnosed Diabetes that I've had for what I'm sure must be a staggering amount of time to walk around not knowing you're diabetic.

I had 3 out of 4 arteries over 95% blocked.  I waited a whole night to go to ER because I thought I might just be having Gas.  My heart could've literally exploded.

The reason I'm telling you this is to illustrate how close to death I was at the young age of 42, with 3 little toddlers and a loving wife to leave behind.

Having this perspective, it is my opinion that none of this matters a hill of beans.  "So-and-so disagreed with me, oh noes!  Troll!!!  I'm going to tell Mods!!!  I got my feelings hurt on an internet forum!!!"

Seriously, if these are your problems in life, you may want to carefully examine your priorities.  This is already one of the most sterile places on the internet, and you guys want to turn it into a CDC clean room.

Personally, I feel there is plenty of room on the internet for passion, personality, strong opinion, and with that comes stepping on other's precious little toes now and then.  And, at the end of the day, if someone is being an enormous douche, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to tell them so.

Why?  Because you too may be suprisingly close to death, unawares.  Whether you are or not, you quite simply do not have the time to care about such petty and unimportant things as someone else's strongly worded, passionate opinions.

In the world of internet arguments, the ones who run to mods or get their feelings hurt and feel it's unfair are, just about always, the people who didn't "Win"

I suppose this makes me a Troll.  Someone alert the authorities.

Quote -  

I suppose this makes me a Troll.  Someone alert the authorities.

Mods alerted. Glad you're feeling better.

Quote - You know, I've recently come as close to dying a cardiac death as any 42  year old non-smoking, non-drinking, non-overweight man can come.

I wondered why you had bee so quiet of late. I was diagnosed with Diabetes some 12 years ago when working abroad and it has been said to me many times by professionals that they are less worried about those diagnosed than the the ones who are not.  Yes it is serious but treatable in so many ways.  Glad that you made it and lets hope your health only improves.

As you say, your story does show matters like this in a very different light.

Quote - Glad that you made it and lets hope your health only improves. As you say, your story does show matters like this in a very different light.

Thanks :)  In many ways, I feel better than ever.  This just happened on the 24th of May, so it's all still pretty new.  There's a little less wind in my sails, but I am led to believe this is temporary, and I'm already being weaned off the injectible insulin in favor of the pill(s). 

Another reason I'm quieter lately is that I've been getting into Photography. 

Quote - > Quote - Glad that you made it and lets hope your health only improves. As you say, your story does show matters like this in a very different light.

Thanks :)  In many ways, I feel better than ever.  This just happened on the 24th of May, so it's all still pretty new.  There's a little less wind in my sails, but I am led to believe this is temporary, and I'm already being weaned off the injectible insulin in favor of the pill(s). 

Another reason I'm quieter lately is that I've been getting into Photography. 

If there is a plus side to Diabetes it is encourages you to stay active and photography sure should help...all the best.

I think many of us (I did it above, so quite guilty) use "troll" and "persistent troublemaker" to mean the same thing. It's sloppy, but it's a habit.

I don't think our problems are with trolls, of the dedicated sort, either.  The forum's main problems are more, as Shane has pointed out, with people who have trouble distinguishing fact from opinion. (Me, guilty of this, at times, too).

Facts are verifiable, and if someone is mistaken, it takes nothing more than a single post to point them to sources which will supply them with the correct information. After that, there's nothing more to be done. You can lead a horse to water, etc...

If you're in a protracted argument (on the internet, as opposed to philosophy class), it's almost guaranteed that you're quarrelling over someone's opinion. It's taken me a while to realize that quarreling over someone else's (or your own) opinion is utterly pointless. Restate their position. State your own. And be done with it.

If only it were that easy, even for people with good intentions...

Hence the TITS campaign! Making forum peace more fun every day!

Quote - Hence the TITS campaign! Making forum peace more fun every day!

Oh great! Now someone's gonna want me to come up with a TATAs campaign! :)

TATA - That's a terrible answer

Ithankyou

@william - I had a bit of a close call a few years back so I know how you feel.  Glad to hear you are getting over it and welcome to the joys of photography! :)

No, asking those who are arguing to go to site mail may not work but what is there to lose by trying?

There is nothing wrong with legimitiamate debate.  However, we either have those who deliberately start thread with the aim of starting an arguement or those who just will not stop.  If a mod drops a warning into a thread, it's like a red flag to a bull. 

It's either take it site mail, drop it, or end up with every thread locked by the mods. 

Actually, I'm rather stunned by the amount of push back and nay-saying that my idea has generated from some people. You'd think I'd told people I want to take away their guns or something.

I'm definitely not against a good debate, as longs as we ARE debating and not just arguing  for the sake of argument. Frankly, were it up to me, I'd wall off a section of the forum where the normal rules don't apply, call it the War Zone, and let you have at it. As long as no one got shot or threated to kill each other, a mod wouldn't be necessary. That also means that if you went into the War Zone you were willing to accept what you got heard or saw. AS LONG AS IT STAYED IN THE WAR ZONE.

Quote - Actually, I'm rather stunned by the amount of push back and nay-saying that my idea has generated from some people. You'd think I'd told people I want to take away their guns or something.

I'm definitely not against a good debate, as longs as we ARE debating and not just arguing  for the sake of argument. Frankly, were it up to me, I'd wall off a section of the forum where the normal rules don't apply, call it the War Zone, and let you have at it. As long as no one got shot or threated to kill each other, a mod wouldn't be necessary. That also means that if you went into the War Zone you were willing to accept what you got heard or saw. AS LONG AS IT STAYED IN THE WAR ZONE.

 

It needs to be kept site-related though, and not a free-for-all...there are other outlets for Politics, Religion etc.  IMO

Did someone say TITS? :woot:

Quote - It's either take it site mail, drop it, or end up with every thread locked by the mods.

The locked threads are going to be on the decrease. The number of deleted posts and suspensions however will increase depending on how many people choose to follow the ToS and be respectful to each other vs how many continue to insist on arguing and derailing threads. 

I don't mind any issue being debated as long as it's poser-related and remains civil and is within the limits of ToS. I don't like the way some moderators in the past have made certain topics off-limits, but I understand why they took that approach. I don't think that's fair to the majority of people who want to discuss those topics civilly and productively and are able to do so without getting emotional about it. 

I'm also working on a couple of community projects that I'm hoping admin will approve of.

Quote -
Frankly, were it up to me, I'd wall off a section of the forum where the normal rules don't apply, call it the War Zone, and let you have at it.

  That was already attempted once (minus the 'normal rules don't apply' part) in the form of an off-topic forum, but it was shut down due to the constant arguing. It doesn't promote a sense of community, which is what Renderosity's intentions are.  

~Shane

Quote - Actually, I'm rather stunned by the amount of push back and nay-saying that my idea has generated from some people. You'd think I'd told people I want to take away their guns or something.

sorry. was just pointing out what I saw as the flaw in your proposal. nothing about guns etc.. just applying logic.. ergo, if the trolls already ignore the TOS and the Mods, why should they take notice of this idea? sorry if that was a problem..

Logic is good, Khai. Your point, I think, is taken.

Next step is an empirical test. See if observations support the hypothesis. :D

(I don't think the campaign is meant to change behavior of "trolls". It think it's meant to change behavior of people who don't really want to break the ToS, but who got carried away -- often, although not always, by feeding a "troll". If you don't feed the creatures, they stay small and weak). 

Why does everyone assume that it's the members fault that a ToS isn't working?

I see nothing wrong with the ToS, my issue is that I don't see why I (or any member) should be expected to abide by it if the moderator does not apply that ToS to everyone in an equal manner.  That's the problem.

There's a comment from Khai in that Punishment Thread, the one where he asks me never to speak to him again.  That comment is still there yet my reply to it was wiped-out and has not been put back.  My reply was simply a light-hearted and humourous post and did not break the ToS (members saw that post).  It's not important for it to be there, but the point is it should not have been removed, and even if it did, then surely the bait needed to be wiped-out as well.

How are members expected to respect a moderator who does these things?

I've checked this post over before posting it, nothing is against the ToS, it's a question I'd like to see an answer to, not from the moderator, but from anyone who took issue with my behaviour the other day.  I'd genuinely like to know why other members here think such moderation behaviour is acceptable.  I'd like to know how, exactly, a person is supposed to have any respect for anyone who does that to his posts without a reason.

Please, tell me.

360 Perspective

This forum is part of EClark1894 & others job making Poser content for sell.

How would you like it if EClark1894 interfered with you providing financial support for your wife and toddlers ?
and then went it doesn't matter a hill of beans ?

The thread in question had no such purpose, and that's not an answer to what I just asked about.

This is part of the problem, if people can't answer something, they change the subject to avoid answering it.  You don't have to answer me, but I'd appreciate it if you do.  Please read-over the question and tell me why you think any member should put up with that.

There is no reason, is there?

Didn't PoserPros have something called "The Chicken Coop" in their forums?  It's been awhile.

pumeco : that responce was to willaim ,not you.
buy the time i get a few sentances wrote 5 people posted.

pumeco : to anser ya question.
if you go and hit a cop ,ya know ya going to jail.

Quote - 360 Perspective

This forum is part of EClark1894 & others job making Poser content for sell.

How would you like it if EClark1894 interfered with you providing financial support for your wife and toddlers ?
and then went it doesn't matter a hill of beans ?

I assume you're talking to me?  I don't care at all anything EClark or anyone else says.  That's my point.  Life is too short.  Please prove hyperbole about Poser arguments costing vendors their livelihood?  Their own behavior, at worst, is what would affect that, not somebody else's.  When you put words in someone else's mouth that's how inflammed arguments get started (Just so you know.)

@RorrKonn
Ah, right, I thought you were replying to me :-D

Anyway, nevermind the cryptic stuff, I'm expecting a proper answer from the mighty RorrKonn because he with poetic abilities can do better than that.  You must be able to see where I'm coming from on this, and while most people will read my comment and look at it in isolation, it's actually the broader picture I'm getting at.

The forum will always have an air of unease and retalation about it if the people that inhabit it have reason to behave like this towards one another.  I personally believe I had a reason for my behaviour, to me it was validated because if these things never happened, I wouldn't have issue with it.

It's easy to look at the ToS and start wondering about ways to refine it, but there's really nothing wrong with it providing it's applied equally to all members, and there's no way on earth that has been done with my posts when I look at the posts that remain and compare them to the ones that were removed.

Absolutely no way on earth.

Quote -
Why does everyone assume that it's the members fault that a ToS isn't working?

I see nothing wrong with the ToS, my issue is that I don't see why I (or any member) should be expected to abide by it if the moderator does not apply that ToS to everyone in an equal manner.  That's the problem.

There's a comment from Khai in that Punishment Thread, the one where he asks me never to speak to him again.  That comment is still there yet my reply to it was wiped-out and has not been put back.  My reply was simply a light-hearted and humourous post and did not break the ToS (members saw that post).  It's not important for it to be there, but the point is it should not have been removed, and even if it did, then surely the bait needed to be wiped-out as well.

How are members expected to respect a moderator who does these things?

I've checked this post over before posting it, nothing is against the ToS, it's a question I'd like to see an answer to, not from the moderator, but from anyone who took issue with my behaviour the other day.  I'd genuinely like to know why other members here think such moderation behaviour is acceptable.  I'd like to know how, exactly, a person is supposed to have any respect for anyone who does that to his posts without a reason.

Please, tell me.

That doesn't give you license to ignore the rules, pumeco. If you honestly believe that your rights are being denied or you're being unfairly treated by a moderator, then go to the Forum administrator, who I believe is  Kimberly C and explain your case to her. If you STILL don't believe you're being treated fairly, then simply leave. Hopefully  you'll be able to work something out with the mod. Even so, you don't have the right to disrupt or derail another thread, no matter how upset you are.

Quote - > Quote - 360 Perspective

This forum is part of EClark1894 & others job making Poser content for sell.

How would you like it if EClark1894 interfered with you providing financial support for your wife and toddlers ?
and then went it doesn't matter a hill of beans ?

I assume you're talking to me?  I don't care at all anything EClark or anyone else says.  That's my point.  Life is too short.  Please prove hyperbole about Poser arguments costing vendors their livelihood?  Their own behavior, at worst, is what would affect that, not somebody else's.  When you put words in someone else's mouth that's how inflammed arguments get started (Just so you know.)

I appreciate, the thought Rorrkonn, but I'm not married, don't have any children and don't rely on making Poser content for my income. That said, as long as William has a coherent argument, isn't off topic, not being mean or personal, or just arguing to be argumentative, I don't really give a rat's a$$ about what he says.

Quote - I appreciate, the thought Rorrkonn, but I'm not married, don't have any children and don't rely on making Poser content for my income. That said, as long as William has a coherent argument, isn't off topic, not being mean or personal, or just arguing to be argumentative, I don't really give a rat's a$$ about what he says.

That's how it's done right there.

Quote -
@RorrKonn
Ah, right, I thought you were replying to me :-D

Anyway, nevermind the cryptic stuff, I'm expecting a proper answer from the mighty RorrKonn because he with poetic abilities can do better than that.  You must be able to see where I'm coming from on this, and while most people will read my comment and look at it in isolation, it's actually the broader picture I'm getting at.

The forum will always have an air of unease and retalation about it if the people that inhabit it have reason to behave like this towards one another.  I personally believe I had a reason for my behaviour, to me it was validated because if these things never happened, I wouldn't have issue with it.

It's easy to look at the ToS and start wondering about ways to refine it, but there's really nothing wrong with it providing it's applied equally to all members, and there's no way on earth that has been done with my posts when I look at the posts that remain and compare them to the ones that were removed.

Absolutely no way on earth.

I know your not going to let this go.
and nothing I can say will change that.

I hope you find the peace that I never did.

British Steel

...........   lol....

Does not seem to be working so well......

Quote - There's a comment from Khai in that Punishment Thread, the one where he asks me never to speak to him again.  That comment is still there yet my reply to it was wiped-out and has not been put back.  My reply was simply a light-hearted and humourous post and did not break the ToS (members saw that post).  It's not important for it to be there, but the point is it should not have been removed, and even if it did, then surely the bait needed to be wiped-out as well.

(You asked in the forum so I'll answer you in the forum). 

Because Khai's post was not inflamatory. He was making an observation and wasn't using inflamatory language. He asked you to stop addressing him and he even said please. I don't see any evidence of that being bait. 

Your response, intended as humor or not, was inflamatory and somewhat hostile, along with many others. And I really don't buy that it was intended as humor. Not in the context of that situation. This isn't my first time being a moderator. I'm sharp enough to recognize, at least most of the time, when humor is genuine and when it''s being used as a tool or a cop-out. And I'm also willing to admit when I've made a mistake. I'm sure there are some posts here or there that could have stayed had they not been part of the rest of the mess. 

And that's why I keep saying, it's not your opinions that I or others necessarily have a problem with, it's how you choose to word them and use them to derail threads. I'm not picking on you and I've never intentionally tried to single you out. I've also never been rude to you in my PMs. I try to treat everyone as fairly as possible but that's not always possible when there's a s#!t storm raging. At that point my goal is to stop it and clean up the mess as quickly as possible. In the process, some posts get deleted that may have otherwise been ok on their own. 

~Shane

I have no problem with Shane, and I think he's as fair as a mod can be. Anyone who disagrees is totally free to disagree, of course, but I don't think it's a useful topic to debate on the forums (feel free to pm me, if you disagree), and is better taken up in sitemail or with a site administrator.

The other option, for those who think the forums here are too restrictive, etc, is to start their own. There are lots of free and low cost resources on the web. You just have to put in a little bit of initial effort, and then you can moderate exactly as you see fit.

http://www.forumotion.com/

http://www.proboards.com/

http://www.zetaboards.com/

http://www.freeforums.org/

Search Google for free forum hosting, and you'll find many more. If it turns out that a different style of moderation is primarily what the Poser community needs and you're capable of being a mod, your forums will eventually be popular and lively.