There seems to be some confusion as to why people are leaving renderosity, so let me see if I can explain it for you.

There are TWO (possibly more), very disruptive, very ignorant users who have done more to make forum life miserable than any of the changes renderosity have made (they also do the same at DNA) . However, the fact that renderosity have done nothing about them and allow them to stir their particular brand of malevolence into almost every conversation, derailing topics, aggravating tempers, and then having the audacity to blame the people they spend their time gauding for the disruptive behaviour, says more about their influence inside renderosity then their knowledge on any subject.

What is the point of having a TOS if parts of the community are allowed to ignore it, while others are reprimanded for stupid little things that few people care about? People are leaving, closing their accounts and guess what... That impacts Renderositys bottom line. Good business sense would force you to clamp down on the source instead of allowing them to drive away your customer base. Whether that clamp down means a ban or limited access is irrelevant, something needs to be done.

I want to add......the answer to every Poser question is NOT Genesis/DS.

It would be helpful if you could provide a few links to the forum posts that are being derailed by disruptive members.

There are precious few forum posts and even less replies. Members hardly bother anymore and Renderosity is quite

strict in enforcing the TOS.

I am positive that members do not leave Renderosity because of two (or possibly more?) disruptive Forum members.

Maybe you didn't make any purchases during a very critical time. Maybe you didn't receive a special email that many of us were

presented with a few days ago.

From what I understand, members are not leaving but taking a break from making purchases until the shock settles.

I am one of them but I would never leave Renderosity for a disruptive forum member.

No Helgas - that is a separate problem with site security which I believe is being handled.  This is a problem caused by 2 very disruptive members.  To Structure I would say - hit the "ignore" button like me - you will never again see a post by the person in question.  It's quite liberating actually - the Poser forum is now at least tolerable for me

Thanks FrankT.  This is correct you can use the ignore button or if you believe that a post is a TOS violation there is also a report button so that you can report an issue.

We do take the TOS very serious and I would like to think that two people would not make me have a change of heart for my work or my hobby.

If anyone have concerns please feel free to write to me at  admin@renderosity.com and I will be happy to look into it further.

Unfortunately Tina, if a number of individuals succeeds in derailing or getting threads locked repeatedly then it kind of dampens your enthusiasm.  The thinking would be "what's the point in contributing to a thread when it's going to dissolve into argument, ad-hominem attacks and then get locked?"

Until I started using the ignore button, that was exactly my thought process and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.  Of course, the threads still get locked or driven massively off topic by the same small group so it's not perfect

Why would someone close their Rendo account simply due to a hostile forum environment?  I mean there's so much more to the site than just the forum community-- not to say that those posters aren't acting in a detestable manner.

Why would someone close their Rendo account simply due to a hostile forum environment?  I mean there's so much more to the site than just the forum community-- not to say that those posters aren't acting in a detestable manner.

Realistically, there are two issues going on here that are to some degree inter-related.  The truth is there are people leaving because of the changes to the forum, in addition there are others that are not leaving but are certainly not contributing as much as they did, again due to the changes to the forum. Other than the forum the site is still not user friendly.  If you are using IE try going to the gallery and then selecting What's New from the market drop down menu.  The answer is you can't because the drop down goes behind the header.  Again in IE do an upload to your own gallery and try and give a vender credit for their product, again you can't... need I go on
Going back to the forums, Glitterati3D highlights the other problem.  There are a couple of people here that manage to turn a large number of threads into a Daz / Poser or Genesis / any other figure arguments.  Sure there is the ignore button here and I do use it, not only here but at RDNA, even when they use the different names. 

You have to look at this in context though, some of the people leaving or on extended lurk mode were the most helpful people and the threads they contributed were interesting.  If they are no longer posting the number of interesting threads is reduced and, percentage wise, the number of threads that are going nowhere, other than being locked increases.  It has become so bad that I often never start to read a thread because I can tell from the title just where it is going.  Others I leave early as soon as I see the words you have XXX**** on ignore.  Again I know the thread is now doomed. 

The end result is I spend less time here and more at RDNA, yes I have the same ignore list but the forum is easier to use and I can cut and paste without losing my text.  I can thank someone for a useful post with one click and..., I could go on but it is easier to say RDNA forums look designed for purpose.  I doubt they are the only site that good but I moved there because they have the link to SM and Poser and it is Poser that I am interested in. 

Clearly I still come here but it is reducing all the time and, I suspect, I am not alone. 

structure, is why they gave us this:  

is very peaceful once you ignore argumentors.  besides, if PTB ban 'em, they can't buy stuff.

but if BWS read this, please add "ignore thread" button?  then we don't hafta ignore each user in OT thread - saves time.

structure, is why they gave us this:  

is very peaceful once you ignore argumentors.  besides, if PTB ban 'em, they can't buy stuff.

but if BWS read this, please add "ignore thread" button?  then we don't hafta ignore each user in OT thread - saves time.

I completely agree with hornet, and, I recently added those responsible to my ignore list, I never really spent any time in these forums aince scripting is my main interest, but I have seen the same people in "action" at DNA, where they are also ignored.:)

Things are a lot more peaceful now that I don't see some posts. I wonder if the posters concerned will ever take the hint

The problem is the real troublemakers apparently dont realize that they are the problem..and they are still here in this thread even.

I don't often come to these forums anymore due to the likes of those who insist on berating any comments I make simply because they hate daz and I sell at daz. I have been posting and helping this community longer than most of these people have even been around, I enjoy helping people solve their problems. Yet because of a couple peoples own personal vendettas against anything daz, it makes this place very uncomfortable.

In the REAL world there is no conspiracy, and people happily use both Poser and DS and really do not have problems talking about both programs. There is no need in civilized discussion to force a wedge between the two. Both programs are closely related as are the products that are shared by both programs, so it is only natural that both get discussed together. That is how human beings share information.

This place used to be a community for sharing. Now all these fanatics try to use this place to push their vendettas and make this place uncomfortable for any open discussions. It is like a software version of racism....very disgusting.

But I dont get bullied out by ignorance like that ...if I can help someone here, I will keep doing so.

Well said Rawn. It is indeed "forum racism". Let's see if you get a rational response. They can't respond to me because I am on ignore apparently:)

Oh my, I see I missed one in my ignore file.  Problem solved now.

Good, thanks. Now we don't have to deal with you whenever we post.

plonk

(you need a hotkey for that :) )

...

Nicely worded Rawn.

@Rawnrr Software racism? seriously? Come on, let's not get carried away into making up terminology. People will use what they enjoy. They will not use what irritates them, and your argument that it is a couple of peoples vendettas against DAZ is totally erroneous. While I am sure there are some poser users who dislike DAZ intensely and get emotional about the topic, it is also true that there those in the DAZ camp, and from the tone of your post (I may be mistaken) I would be inclined to think you are one of those. In which case, your opening statement would be correct. Until you showed up, no software had been mentioned, no particular groups of users were singled out as being at fault and nobody had been in any way, judgemental, argumentative or arbitrary. Please refrain from corrupting the thread with your opinion on who is right or wrong. This is not about apportioning blame. No DAZ v Poser comments are necessary.

@**Rawnrr ** Until you showed up, no software had been mentioned, .

....................................

Allow me to direct your attention to the second post in this thread.

@**Rawnrr ** Until you showed up, no software had been mentioned, .

....................................

Allow me to direct your attention to the second post in this thread.

Allow me reiterate my previous request. My apologies,  someone mentioned poser. Still nothing in that post to warrant your response. Can we remain civil? Can we avoid the software wars for one thread? maybe?

Until you showed up, no software had been mentioned, no particular groups of users were singled out as being at fault and nobody had been in any way, judgemental, argumentative or arbitrary. Please refrain from corrupting the thread with your opinion on who is right or wrong. This is not about apportioning blame. 

I think fault, judgemental and people being singled out happened right in the opening post. I took a screenshot instead of quoting it, as the editing in forum is doing weird things. I'm not sure a post can have much weight for proving a point when people choose to violate the same rules they think others are misusing by hurling insults (and yes, using words such as 'ignorant' and 'brand of malevolence', are insulting and negative words) at others but says others are to blame for forum problems. I agree with RawArts post, and as long people don't extend the same courtesy and respect towards other that they want in return, nothing will change in the forums.

Until you showed up, no software had been mentioned, no particular groups of users were singled out as being at fault and nobody had been in any way, judgemental, argumentative or arbitrary. Please refrain from corrupting the thread with your opinion on who is right or wrong. This is not about apportioning blame. 

I think fault, judgemental and people being singled out happened right in the opening post. I took a screenshot instead of quoting it, as the editing in forum is doing weird things. I'm not sure a post can have much weight for proving a point when people choose to violate the same rules they think others are misusing by hurling insults (and yes, using words such as 'ignorant' and 'brand of malevolence', are insulting and negative words) at others but says others are to blame for forum problems. I agree with RawArts post, and as long people don't extend the same courtesy and respect towards other that they want in return, nothing will change in the forums.

No names were mentioned. No aspersions cast, an insult can only be an insult if someone takes it as one. In which case I can only assume that you took it as a personal slight, and as the saying goes, if the cap fits. Nobody was attacked in this thread until Rawn spoke up, and I am not in the least surprised that you come in to back him up. Once again, the thread is being derailed because someone wants to make it a software war and / or someone decides that they were personally slighted by a comment that not even did not use their name, but did not use any name at all. Have fun with that, and enjoy your stay in ignore world.

Yes, no names were mentioned, but I didn't say names were. Users were singled out. At least two or more as you posted.

As far as slight, I wasn't slighted as I'm quite sure you weren't speaking of me. But I merely pointed out the contradiction in the quoted post versus what was said. As far as derailment, what is the goal of the thread if no groups were singled out, no fault is laid or no judgment was made? What resolution was expected then?

Let me put in some last words.

"If we don't end war, war will end us"

George O

I believe that the point of my original post was missed.

The point is both softwares CAN be discussed together, and mentioning both softwares in a post is not argumentative, and causing app wars. They are so very similar that there should be no problem at all taking about both of them. Many people (myself included) use both programs and have been developing for both programs for many years. There is no issues where sides must be chosen and lines drawn. THAT is where the discomfort in the forums grows.

Back in the day we would openly talk about any program, be it poser or bryce, or max, etc, and no one cared. If something was not of interest to them they simply skipped the tread. But now some people feel like they have to play forum cop and tell people what they are allowed to talk about and what they are not allowed to talk about. It would be a much nicer environment if people would get off their high horse and respect the moderators enough to let them do their job, and let people talk. What good are forums if people are not allowed to talk. That is a big reason why people are no longer coming in as much as they used to.

Great post again, Raw. And I've seen many times when Poser users ask how to use something in the software they bought, not what others bought for them, and the true troublemakers tells them bluntly to go ask somewhere else. It should be no surprise then forum participation is down.

sir winnie said it's better to jaw-jaw than war-war, but why some daz users so angry and defensive?

daz makes great products. also supplied metacreations poser with dork, before splitting off from zygote.

 but why some daz users so angry and defensive?

I believe you spelled 'Poser' wrong. ;) A DAZ user didn't start this thread, nor any of those threads in question.

Why would someone close their Rendo account simply due to a hostile forum environment?  I mean there's so much more to the site than just the forum community-- not to say that those posters aren't acting in a detestable manner.

Getting back to the original point why are people leaving Renderosity I think the second point is valid and it goes further than the forums. I got pulled by the moderator for using the wrong type of thumbnail, yet you go into the galleries and you see dozens of posts which include violence and nudity which carry no warning at all, usually by the in crowd.  The people who use Renderosity for purchases are scared by the hacks, my credit cards were hacked 3 times during that period, and it worries me more that the site were unaware, rather than in denial. I have spent literally thousands of dollars on this site, not anymore.

Go anywhere else other than the marketplace and the site has become a private members club. To get a render rated more than 3 times you have to have at least 15 'friends'. To get into the charts, so to speak, you have about 25 'friends', and every time they post, you comment and rate 5, then they do the same for you. Go look for your self they are the same old same old. They are not the top renders on this site, but you see as soon as they are posted maybe 12 views, 10 comments, 8 ratings all 5 star of course. For the people not in the loop you see, even for really good work, 110 views, 6 comments, perhaps 3 or 4 ratings. They all know each other by their real first names even when their profile doesn't state it.

To win a competition on this site you generally have to have at least 2 staff 'friends' and be signed up or affiliated with this sites own 'promo company' check for yourselves.

Newbies are not welcomed and have to work hard to get into the 'private clubs', but must do this to get any recognition.

The cash paying customers, like myself, get no recognition and lack security. No way to run a business, and that's what this is, not merely a hobby site, and I run a business. 

Renderosity as a community site has unfortunately flat lined and is quite dead. And probably has been that way for quite a while, its just in that halfway zombie stage where it hasn't quite realised that it's missing vital organs. There are systemic problems in a number of area's including a culture of bullying that extends from some of Renderosity's staff (Watch for CAPS) to some site Members and it impacts on Vendors, Buyers and Users alike. There is also an inability of the site administration to take on board any criticism and steer the site in a direction that most people would agree with and would like to see implemented, it seems to be cultural in nature and unlikely to change any time soon.

If its not bullying then it's just general disconnect with the renderosity user base and the actual 3D art world in general. People come here for community but are instead faced with tight Clique's and a shut up and buy culture. We are all treated as little people with quite insignificant opinions that don't really matter, as the faceless majority supposedly all love the new changes, it just doesn't seem I know any of them.

I'm not going to go into the issues with the sites general functionality in general as the list is quite long as most of you know already.

I'm heading for the door, and while I'm not going to be able to delete my account.

I have removed my avatar thumbnail to show that I'm really not here anymore. Consider also deleting your thumb if you're tired of the situation here.

While it is disappointing after being here for 12yrs and really caring about the community and site. I feel I need to look to the future and the best thing to do with a sinking ship is move away or be sucked down with it.

In Regards to Daz Vs Poser.

I have both the latest DS installed and also Poser 9 which to be honest I haven't opened in quite a while and can't come up with good enough reasons to pay for an upgrade for it.

In my experience there is a group here that have made a habit of DAZ bashing over the years, who are now faced with a reality that Poser is actually in decline and the market is shifting elsewhere. Screaming "it's not fair" and "Why don't Vendors make more stuff for Poser 7?" hasn't gained much traction in reversing the trend, so most are now in a state of denial and are a little like a cornered animal baring fangs. Lets face it Renderosity barely supports Daz Studio and is totally out of touch with the new market that is emerging to support it. If you actually believe Renderosity supports DS go to the Daz Forum and have a quick look at the FAQ for DS. Or the mass of "Not tested in Daz Studio" tags in the marketplace. Really you can't be bothered to download a free program and test your product in it?

So whats left for Renderosity? At a guess I would expect over the next few years you will see Renderosity likely dissolve back into a small hobbyist site and I'm sure there are plenty of old hats here that would prefer it that way. If you are interested you can compare traffic for sites with tools like similarweb.com, just for reference Daz3D receives well over double the traffic of Renderosity these days. It does make you wonder what will happen to all of your purchases if this site ever folds up.

Anyways good luck for those that choose to keep with it, Im sure the oasis is just over the next hill, I just hope its not too salty to for you.

I agree whole heartedly with the comments made by 'Razor 42', and I despair that none of this will be even recognised by the 'tight cliques' as you put it, the 'private members club' as I call them. They are happy with things as they stand and why not, they dominate every aspect of this site, I would question if they spend the most money on this site though.

Renderosity as it is now reminds me very much of a British company 'Games Workshop' about 30 years ago, some of you no doubt have heard of it. It produced by far the finest gaming figures in the world, at the time and had retail outlets throughout the UK. It was set up and owned by two of it's own figure designers, who were treated like gods by the hobby community, the products were loved by the wargaming community and they produced their own in-house magazine.

The problem was the company was almost broke. The retail outlets were inhabited by the 'real' gamers, and the company encouraged them to hang around the stores playing games and painting figures, which meant that newbies were bullied out of the stores, and parents would never go into the stores with their children, because they were populated by, as they saw it, a bunch of weirdo's.

Anyone who dared to suggest a new range of figures, or even painted their own figures other than that shown in the magazines were branded 'heratics' or were just brushed off as not 'real' gamers.

 To cut a long story short, the two, god like, owners decided to sell out and the company went into new ownership. Within a decade the company was a multi million global force with interests in PC and consul games, producing films and remaining the world leader in figure design and sales. How did they achieve this? Well by putting their whole emphasis on bringing new people into the hobby, that was the priority of every section of the company. An order was issued to clear all the retail stores of the 'real' hobbyists, because it was realised they didn't purchase much anyway, just used the facilities. Gaming boards were set up in the stores purely for staff to show new customers how the games worked, painting classes were given in the stores to encourage newbies to paint their own figures, and direction and advice was given so the newbies didn't become discouraged in their new hobby.

How do I know this, well I was once part of the new regime in 'Games Workshop', now I run a company of my own, not related to either 'Games Workshop' or Renderosity, this is just my hobby, but the same principles apply to any hobby based industry, if you don't nurture the future you will soon be something of the past.  

I agree whole heartedly with the comments made by 'Razor 42', and I despair that none of this will be even recognised by the 'tight cliques' as you put it, the 'private members club' as I call them. They are happy with things as they stand and why not, they dominate every aspect of this site, I would question if they spend the most money on this site though.

Renderosity as it is now reminds me very much of a British company 'Games Workshop' about 30 years ago, some of you no doubt have heard of it. It produced by far the finest gaming figures in the world, at the time and had retail outlets throughout the UK. It was set up and owned by two of it's own figure designers, who were treated like gods by the hobby community, the products were loved by the wargaming community and they produced their own in-house magazine.

The problem was the company was almost broke. The retail outlets were inhabited by the 'real' gamers, and the company encouraged them to hang around the stores playing games and painting figures, which meant that newbies were bullied out of the stores, and parents would never go into the stores with their children, because they were populated by, as they saw it, a bunch of weirdo's.

Anyone who dared to suggest a new range of figures, or even painted their own figures other than that shown in the magazines were branded 'heratics' or were just brushed off as not 'real' gamers.

 To cut a long story short, the two, god like, owners decided to sell out and the company went into new ownership. Within a decade the company was a multi million global force with interests in PC and consul games, producing films and remaining the world leader in figure design and sales. How did they achieve this? Well by putting their whole emphasis on bringing new people into the hobby, that was the priority of every section of the company. An order was issued to clear all the retail stores of the 'real' hobbyists, because it was realised they didn't purchase much anyway, just used the facilities. Gaming boards were set up in the stores purely for staff to show new customers how the games worked, painting classes were given in the stores to encourage newbies to paint their own figures, and direction and advice was given so the newbies didn't become discouraged in their new hobby.

How do I know this, well I was once part of the new regime in 'Games Workshop', now I run a company of my own, not related to either 'Games Workshop' or Renderosity, this is just my hobby, but the same principles apply to any hobby based industry, if you don't nurture the future you will soon be something of the past.  

 

 

That expresses the issue very well.  

Just received a lovely email from a Renderosity admin detailing the process to close my account...

I must say it was lovely in its wording and didn't come across at all like they were trying to shove me out the door or intimidate me... Strange I haven't received any messages about a single issue I have raised here or asking why a Vendor with 30 products and a 12 year history here is so unhappy or is talking about withdrawing from the site.

Ah, I see.  At least at DAZ, Rendo forums have a huge reputation of devolving into unfriendly software wars.  Because of that, people warn one another to stay away from here (the forums, not the marketplace, gallery, or freebies)  Yeah, it's more on the Daz-bashing end, but the Daz users aren't 100% innocent either, nor are the Poser 2014 Pro and Poser 10 users (the other two I am referring specifically to the Poser version wars.  Well, not so much "Wars" as insensitivity and condescension towards users of earlier versions.)   As for the culpability of Daz users, it pertains mostly in regards to greatly exaggerating Poser's decline-- if it were as real as some claim, then you would see fewer V4 clothing/accessories/etc. items on Renderosity with Poser mats.  In reality, any decline in Poser is due solely to Rendo's shift heavily towards Genesis 2 and the failure of Dawn/Dusk product sales outside of Hivewire3D. Though Genesis 2 is finding some Poser-exclusive support on Rendo.

Now of course the forum search is broken, which is only going to make things worse.  Esp. since we got the news from Tina that the programmers refuse to fix the search because "threads should not consist of a three-letter title", which hearkens back to the site overhaul when they initially refused to change the color of the "On Sale" and background text.

As for the culpability of Daz users, it pertains mostly in regards to greatly exaggerating Poser's decline-- if it were as real as some claim, then you would see fewer V4 clothing/accessories/etc. items on Renderosity with Poser mats.  In reality, any decline in Poser is due solely to Rendo's shift heavily towards Genesis 2 and the failure of Dawn/Dusk product sales outside of Hivewire3D. Though Genesis 2 is finding some Poser-exclusive support on Rendo.

This is going slightly of topic but when you look at Statistics you get a little more straight forward view on the state of Poser. When checking for decline it's best to start at the customer end and not the sellers end. As fall off generally hits in the number of sales first and the number of products will react over time to the reduced sales return. Stats according to Alexa Global Ranking (Based on traffic) Lower is better -

• Hivewire3D is ranked 453,851

• RuntimeDNA is ranked 103, 582

• Renderosity is ranked 30,255 and

• Daz3D is 12,655

Renderosity has dropped over 10,000 rank positions in the last 12 months, there is no historic data for either Hivewire3D or RuntimeDNA as there ranking is to low. Daz3D has been going from strength to strength. There is likely a number of contributing factors that have resulted in the reduction in Renderosity traffic and not just one silver bullet. But it is hard to deny a decline in Poser usage and new user take up with anything but pure opinion, 

True.  I think the site overhaul is mostly responsible, and the hacking + this doesn't help.

My gosh though, have you seen Content Paradise in comparison? 

Also, I can't remember, but don't most of the props/scenes at Daz still support Poser mats?  So Poser-only users would still be going there for those. 

One thing I should mention however-- with Rendo's shift towards G2F, of course you're going to see a lot of traffic for Daz, and indeed, from memory, the decline in V4 support does fit that timeline.  So people who want V4 stuff are more and more likely to look elsewhere than Daz or Rendo (such as RDNA-- though to be honest I don't think any other commercial site is continuing much support for V4.)  Dawn and Dusk seem to have pretty good support among the online/freebie community (both on Daz and Poser ends), but outside of Hivewire3D, they receive very little commercial support.  Roxie and Rex get rather limited support on Content Paradise, and practically no support anywhere else, with only marginal support from the online/freebie community.  Even Content Paradise is shifting towards G2F/M, and I believe the diminishing support for any figures aside from Gen2 M/F is the leading factor behind any decline in Poser.  Genesis 1's influence in attracting people to Daz was very limited, but G2F drew a lot of people, including vendors. 

Back on topic however, indeed a combination of bad and inept decisions by the programmers and webmasters is likely behind the Rendo decline.  A lot of people lost faith in the non-forumite staff when it was revealed that the programmers didn't do a lot of the most basic stuff that a programmer should do, such as building the code on a dummy site and creating backups. 
Some people left Renderosity because the new interface required more scrolling, which their arthritic hands could not handle (though it is a blessing for those with vision problems)  The fact of the matter is that the Poser and Daz userbase tends to range in the 40's to 60's range, with many members of the online community using the programs as a hobby now that they're retired/pensioners.

The search function and categories from the site overhaul were difficult to get the hang of, and likely drove people away as well.

The hacking was a major problem as well, due to how long it took for the staff to rectify it.

Now we're seeing the same refusal by the programmers to listen to the customers that we saw during the overhaul-- back then, they initially refused to change the Sale text color due to personal preference.  Now, they're refusing to bring back the three-letter search function, or even so much as giving a warning upon search that words of less than 4 letters are not allowed.

Using site statistics to prove how healthy a piece of software is can be very misleading.  You can use statistics for galleries and forums but get the same misleading results because the majority of Poser users do not upload to the galleries or use the forums.

Less is being spent on Poser content, well that is a surprise when a lot of users have stuck with V4 and have being buying content for years.  Does that mean that they use Poser less, hard to prove.  Many just make their own stuff or, like me, have just changed focus.  I have now purchased Vue and use my Poser content in that.  I still buy content but it is more weighted towards Vue content but I still use Poser everyday.

The only thing that will make me reluctant to upgrade to the next version of Poser is based up on the activation / deactivation process they might use but that is a very different story.

"Using statistic to prove how healthy a piece of software is, can be very misleading." 

True, but these statistics are not looking at the health of the actual software packages, they are looking at the vitality of the associated marketplaces to give an indicator as to the current trends associated with the software package usage. Again, when looking at several relevant sources of numbers and statistics in cohesion there does seem to be some indicators that Poser is not the flag ship it used to be in the industry. I have heard a lot of opinion based defence denying this is true, but in reality opinion is an even less reliable indicator than statistics based determinations.

We all know that statistics can be used in ways to apparently skew facts like 95% fat free, which really means the product is %5 fat. But any marketplace, especially web based ones, that say a decline in traffic is a non issue is a little in denial of what is happening in their own market sector. 

A weather man can take all available data and run various simulations using multi million dollar equipment and from that evaluate that there is a 90% chance that the wil be 2-3 inches of rain tomorrow or you can just ask your neighbour "Ya reckon we'll get some rain tomorrow, Jim?" I guess both could vary differently in their degree of accuracy but which do you think most people would trust more for both long term reliability and a higher accuracy rate in their forecasting.

"Using statistic to prove how healthy a piece of software is, can be very misleading." 

True, but these statistics are not looking at the health of the actual software packages, they are looking at the vitality of the associated marketplaces to give an indicator as to the current trends associated with the software package usage. Again, when looking at several relevant sources of numbers and statistics in cohesion there does seem to be some indicators that Poser is not the flag ship it used to be in the industry. I have heard a lot of opinion based defence denying this is true, but in reality opinion is an even less reliable indicator than statistics based determinations.

We all know that statistics can be used in ways to apparently skew facts like 95% fat free, which really means the product is %5 fat. But any marketplace, especially web based ones, that say a decline in traffic is a non issue is a little in denial of what is happening in their own market sector. 

A weather man can take all available data and run various simulations using multi million dollar equipment and from that evaluate that there is a 90% chance that the wil be 2-3 inches of rain tomorrow or you can just ask your neighbour "Ya reckon we'll get some rain tomorrow, Jim?" I guess both could vary differently in their degree of accuracy but which do you think most people would trust more for both long term reliability and a higher accuracy rate in their forecasting.

To clarify, I was not saying you were wrong just that it is hard to come up with an accurate picture.   Personally i think you are correct and that Poser is not the flag ship it used to be, and I am someone who, with one notable exception, that has nothing but praise for what SM has done with Poser.   I am also not surprised by this development.  The market has both matured and fragmented with a large chunk of people sticking with a figure that has been around for years and have little need for new content.  What content needs they do have are not met by the market so they tend to make their own.  The inclusion of the fitting room in Poser also allowed users to take almost their entire wardrobe and fit it to any figure, that again has an impact. That at a time when there are more vendors so the spending will drop and also be spread wider.  If that is not enough the number of figures around has increased.

A large chunk of people have moved on to a figure where Daz Studio would probably be the best choice, although I really don't want to get into that tired old argument, but I feel it is a factor.

I do personally think you are right but I still have the nagging worry in that I cannot see how it is possible to quantify how many Posers users are sat at there PC or Mac on a regular basis and use Poser but make their own content, never buy content and do not upload to galleries or post on forums.  My opinion is that there are a fair number but, as you rightly state, it is an opinion and is certainly not based in fact.

I understand what you're saying.

One thing is for certain though, a trend of people creating their own content rather than purchasing professionally built content won't help Renderosity or other content driven marketplaces. That said, I believe there are always going to be things outside the scope of most home content creators for example look at something like a Stonemason set. While for this market sector it's quite expensive cost wise, it still makes sense to purchase a set like that rather than spending the long hours to create something equivalent even if you are capable of such detailed modelling and texturing. That is the gap where professional content will always be attractive to a large group of users. Where it is either outside of an area of expertise or it would take longer to create it than is reasonable for the intended use of the item. While the consumer segment may be decreasing in some sectors, you may actually find it's increasing in others and still quite large as a whole.

As far as DSvsPoser battle goes. Just because I like to use paint brushes with oils doesn't mean watercolours or pencils are bad or inferior in some way. A lot just comes down to personal preference, regardless of the differences in capabilities between the two. There is room for both platforms to coexist and for years the crossover has been strong between the two schools and really it is a little sad to see the divide growing larger of late, which is thanks mainly to the different development direction between the two apps. Which is as exciting as it is divisive imo.

I understand what you're saying.

One thing is for certain though, a trend of people creating their own content rather than purchasing professionally built content won't help Renderosity or other content driven marketplaces. That said, I believe there are always going to be things outside the scope of most home content creators for example look at something like a Stonemason set. While for this market sector it's quite expensive cost wise, it still makes sense to purchase a set like that rather than spending the long hours to create something equivalent even if you are capable of such detailed modelling and texturing. That is the gap where professional content will always be attractive to a large group of users. Where it is either outside of an area of expertise or it would take longer to create it than is reasonable for the intended use of the item. While the consumer segment may be decreasing in some sectors, you may actually find it's increasing in others and still quite large as a whole.

As far as DSvsPoser battle goes. Just because I like to use paint brushes with oils doesn't mean watercolours or pencils are bad or inferior in some way. A lot just comes down to personal preference, regardless of the differences in capabilities between the two. There is room for both platforms to coexist and for years the crossover has been strong between the two schools and really it is a little sad to see the divide growing larger of late, which is thanks mainly to the different development direction between the two apps. Which is as exciting as it is divisive imo.

I agree with everything you have said there and I have gone the way you have described.  I purchased something yesterday that was a multi room set up with seven room presets and 50 materials.  Even if I had the skills it would have taken me a month or more to create.  It cost me less than $7 which is a no brainer.  There will always be a market for high quality or good value stuff but the vendors of Stonemason class are few and far between.  They are expensive but still good value for money but then come the dilemma do you look at the number of sales, total cost of sales or the average to try and decide the present market?  Certainly in the last few years I have been happier to pay more for items that are well produced. One thing is for sure, given the choice of a high quality scene and half a dozen items of glam wear I will go the HQ scene route even if it costs more than the five items of clothes out together.  Trouble is I do not see enough vendors producing high quality items to keep the present market buoyant, or enough that makes good use of the features that exist in the latest versions of Poser.  I understand the argument for backwards compatibility but, for example, it really is time for materials to be in the materials folder and not in the pose folder.  I know they can be moved but do I really want to pay full price for something that was produced with Poser 6 in mind and then have to put work in to make the most of it in Poser 2014.  Once again I am happy to put my money where my mouth is and pay a much higher price for something that makes use of Poser 10/2014 features in mind.

Going the other extreme I do tend to pick up clothes in sales or via prime but I rarely use these items straight out of the box.  They are a starting point for me to remodel and/or re-texture, sure it takes some extra work but I have paid so little for them but from the vendors point of view their cut of $3.50 can't be good return on their efforts.

As to the DS/Poser battle, well I have little time for such nonsense but then I was never into the 'mine is bigger, faster and better than your's camp' in any situation.  It is a shame to degrade the argument and concentrate on what is different when it would be so much better to concentrate on the fact that we all have 3D art work as a hobby in some form.

Backwards compatibility has become an anchor in the sand for many developers. Often negatively holding back things to increase market share. But I'm sure someone who swears by Poser 7 would see things quite differently.

That's one advantage of the combined software platform and content marketplace that Daz3D has implemented. It removes the cost barrier of infinite version upgrades keeping most users on the most up to date version of the software platform. Which allows content creators the freedom to create for the newest version and latest capabilities, with confidence that the take up rate is high and rapid by the users to the latest version. Combining this with giving it's PA's immediate access to the latest development tools at zero cost is a game changer, well at least for me it was. :)

I remember with some Poser content I had created many years ago being instructed to open files in a text editor and change the 9 to a 6 quite mysteriously. Which at the time I did diligently just to keep as many users as possible happy. It seemed strange that the application itself would just refuse to open a file based on a single digit in the opening text lines even if there was no inherent compatibility issues. It did display a certain disconnect with Smith Micro and Poser content creators. Also I never really did understand why a material preset belonged in the Pose folder though at a guess I would say it stems from Mat Pose terminology. A straightforward content/runtime library structure is something that still seems to challenge both sides to this day.

Unfortunately the backwards compatibility concept seems to have fractured the Poser market even further forcing content creators to either create for the newest and latest or dumb down products for larger market appeal. It's is quite a hard one to solve for the Poser community, especially as the rate of dramatic change seems to becoming quicker and quicker.

I was speaking with Stonemason recently and he mentioned that something he often purchases is pose sets as he finds it's much easier to buy a pack of poses then to spend time trying to create them himself. Just goes to show that demand is quite varied for different types of product depending on the skill set of the end user.

Backwards compatibility has become an anchor in the sand for many developers. Often negatively holding back things to increase market share. But I'm sure someone who swears by Poser 7 would see things quite differently.

That's one advantage of the combined software platform and content marketplace that Daz3D has implemented. It removes the cost barrier of infinite version upgrades keeping most users on the most up to date version of the software platform. Which allows content creators the freedom to create for the newest version and latest capabilities, with confidence that the take up rate is high and rapid by the users to the latest version. Combining this with giving it's PA's immediate access to the latest development tools at zero cost is a game changer, well at least for me it was. :)

I remember with some Poser content I had created many years ago being instructed to open files in a text editor and change the 9 to a 6 quite mysteriously. Which at the time I did diligently just to keep as many users as possible happy. It seemed strange that the application itself would just refuse to open a file based on a single digit in the opening text lines even if there was no inherent compatibility issues. It did display a certain disconnect with Smith Micro and Poser content creators. Also I never really did understand why a material preset belonged in the Pose folder though at a guess I would say it stems from Mat Pose terminology. A straightforward content/runtime library structure is something that still seems to challenge both sides to this day.

Unfortunately the backwards compatibility concept seems to have fractured the Poser market even further forcing content creators to either create for the newest and latest or dumb down products for larger market appeal. It's is quite a hard one to solve for the Poser community, especially as the rate of dramatic change seems to becoming quicker and quicker.

Ironically I was speaking with Stonemason recently and he mentioned that something he often purchases is pose sets as he finds it's much easier to buy a pack of poses then to spend time trying to create them himself. Just goes to show that demand is quite varied for different types of product depending on the skill set of the end user.

I have to admit I have never appreciated that giving DS away for free meant everyone stayed up to date but it is clearly an advantage.   I am sure that a Poser 7 user would see it very differently and I can understand why.  Backwards compatibility can be a two edged sword it that it keeps users spending on content but it can lead to market stagnation.  My own spend in 3D content has remained much the same in the last few years but I only really buy the newest Poser content that makes good use of Poser 2014 features.  The rest of the Poser spend goes on the products that are backwards compatible but I spend less than $5-6 per item.  A very large chunk of my spend now goes on Vue content and that spend is increasing even though I always look to spend on Poser content first.  

Maybe my requirements are different but I just can't find enough 'modern' Poser items that appeal to me each month.  It bothers me that my spend on Vue content is going up while my Poser spend is going down.

As long as you're enjoying what you're doing thats the main thing. :)

I have to admit being tempted by Vue a number of times but the cost of entry, not to mention the dazzling array of licenses put me off in the end.

As long as you're enjoying what you're doing thats the main thing. :)

I have to admit being tempted by Vue a number of times but the cost of entry, not to mention the dazzling array of licenses put me off in the end.

Yes it took me a long while to take the plunge.  In the end I got Vue Studio on sale and that seems to have all of what I want with the exception I would like to add Vue painter.   I also pay each month so that I can get the upgrades free and that seem a good way to keep your investment at a reasonable cost. The big plus for me is the ability to use Poser within Vue and let Poser handle the materials.  That allows me to do an interior scene in Poser and an external in Vue and the figures look the same.  Not only that I am not spending an age converting the materials before hand.