You are making progress and I hope you are able to carry all you have learnt forward to your future figures as well.

Does she look adult?  Not to me I am afraid.  Her body could be but the face is certainly a young face, not saying this is bad but not adult.  Age is difficult to portray and, as others have said, there is little demand for V4 characters after the mid twenties.  As far as the age is concerned the shape of the face is important as are the textures. Faces change as they age as does skin textures and it is something we are very aware of in our day to day life.

My personal view is that she would be difficult to age, her face is a young face and there is not enough detail in the skin texture portray anyone much older.

That said, I am not a vendor and, from your early description your original intention was not an adult figure, if it was I suspect you would have progressed differently. 

I would put her at 19 to 20 years of age mate

Oops, I uploaded the wrong full body render without the updated face...

Minor issue though, her nose is not long enough, which makes her look younger.

Ok, thanks for the respond on the adult question, I guess I edited her face to the point that it made her look younger.  Gonna have a look.

As for the texture, Temptest3D supplied the base texture, I'll have a chat with her & see what we can do.

...wolfie

Ok, thanks for the respond on the adult question, I guess I edited her face to the point that it made her look younger.  Gonna have a look.

As for the texture, Temptest3D supplied the base texture, I'll have a chat with her & see what we can do.

...wolfie

That is interesting do a comparison of Tina and Temptesta3D's 'Faith the fighter', body wise they are not exceptionally different but the Faith's face is much older.  Some of this clearly comes from the shape which implies and independence and aggression but there are also the very slight lines around the eyes and there is a lot of skin detail. There is a good reasons for photographers using 'soft focus' on models as it hides some of the detail and the subject can look younger as a result.  We tend to pick up on small details almost subconsciously but we use that to judge a person. I would put Tina somewhere in her late teens but Faith I would judge late twenties or early thirties, much would depend on the scene and the lighting.  Faith is certainly a character I could happily use as a heroine in a wide range of renders, Tina less so due to her appearing younger and far more innocent.  Again I am not saying that is wrong I am just trying to answer the question of whether she looks adult of not.

  Again I am not saying that is wrong I am just trying to answer the question of whether she looks adult of not.

Thanks a lot, hornet3d, went and looked at Faith the Fighter, then looked at the face morphs.  Added "face square", "cheeks high", "cheeks define", and subtracted "face round" (all were set at 0.00 before), and here's the result. The bump on her skin, I was looking at the textures in PSP and realized the bump textures are a bit flat.  I didn't do them this time, but when I do the bump textures, I make them so that the bumps will show better in renders.  So, that said when I get home, I'm gonna edit the bump textures.  Also looking at other merchant resources I have, gonna have a play at giving more details on the skin.  There are some details, just that I think the lights I used doesn't do a good job at showing them.  Sooooo... gonna play around with all that when I get home.

As for the morphs, I'm done.  She looks cute, innocent, and over 20 now :)

I'm thinking about pulling her out of the store, work on my next  project which will be a cute teen with a theme (gonna partner with someone).

Ok, off to RL work I go...

...wolfie

jamminwolf : there's ,bump maps ,normal maps ,displacement maps ,vector maps
that all in different ways do the same thing ,make what daz calls HD's.

you can google,you tube
bump maps ,normal maps ,displacement maps ,zbrush vector maps.
I'm not 100% sure what versions of poser supports which maps.

bump maps & normal maps do not raze the topology.
normal maps are better then bumps .
normal maps are the standard for game meshes.
you could use normal maps to make Vicky's HD's

low polycount character with normal map
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121794

displacement maps & vector maps will raze the topology.
don't know if daz ,poser ,blender supports vector maps.

slang varies from app to app but there's also a lot of different maps like occlusion ,specular etc etc
that can also really make a difference.

Andrew Price he's using a brick road in blender but still applies to characters in daz poser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07H7xeUnGE

bump maps & normal maps do not raze the topology or polycount

displacement maps & vector maps will raze the topology and polycount

bump maps & normal maps do not raze the topology or polycount

displacement maps & vector maps will raze the topology and polycount

Nope, sorry, I have to step in here.

The first line is correct, bump and normal maps do not raise topology or polycount. = Correct. They visually "fake" 3D without actually doing anything in 3D.

The second line has an error => Displacement maps will raise topology, = correct, but it WILL NOT increase polycount.
Polygon count stays exactly the same as before.

A displacement maps "displaces" the topology at pixel level, and only the pixels that are inside the UV_Map unwrapping are used.
Finer detail can be obtained by using bigger displacement maps from 4096x4096 up to . . . . the highest I went during testing was 16Kx16K (Poser has no limit on texture maps size.) All pixels that are inside the UV unwrapping will effectively "diisplace the topology in 3D space at pixel level.".
The more pixels/surface, the higher the detailing.

Carry on.

That's all french to me lol, except I do, of course know what bump & displacement maps do. Tina has a displecement map for her nipple & Gen area. I'm really not sure about using displacement on her whole body, as it may cause poke through in clothes, and I don't know how I can get Poser to make them both negative  (black) & positive (white).  You can in DS though.

I f I can learn that in Poser, I'd like to find some good displacement maps then.  I'll have to look into that, thanks friend, will click those links when I get home  (I'm on my smart phone at work now)

...wolfie 

Vilters, that makes sense, and  now I understand what "topology" is, never knew that word.

BTW, if anyone can answer, first where is the magnets in Poser, and how can you go from there to making a custom morph? For example, say I have a character with a custom morph, but I want to add something special that my current tools don't have.  Please don't mention Blender, not just yet, I've yet to learn that program.  I used to know how to spawn deformed morphs in DS 3, but I can't for the life remember, and there's no free inj/remember script for DS 4 & up.

I have (only) Poser 9.

...wolfie 

Object menu -> Create magnet (with the body part you want the magnet applied to selected of course)

manipulate the magnet as needed.

Then,

Object menu -> Spawn Morph Target; name the morph

Or, if using multiple magnets on multiple body parts and you want one dial for all of it,

Figure menu -> Spawn Full Body Morph; name the morph

Edit: For P9/10 (and earlier), you'll have to create multiple magnets on multiple body parts, if the morph affects multiple body parts.

In PP2014 magnets can be weightmapped, which means you can use less of them.

Have not used it myself, haven't had a reason to, but that's the theory at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kb3uC1nY7Q

vilters : I'll reword it.

if you use displacement maps & vector maps .

if you don't sub divide the mesh a lot and raze the polycount a lot then displacement maps & vector maps are worthless.

Better rewording ?

jamminwolf : normal maps are better then bump maps.so I'd use normal maps if ya could.

"normal maps are better then bump maps.so I'd use normal maps if ya could."

Evidence please. This meme keeps coming back and whoever says it wanders off like an Alzheimer patient when I ask for visual evidence that a bump map and a normal, made with the same level of care, produce a difference in appearance.

"f you don't sub divide the mesh a lot and raze the polycount a lot then displacement maps & vector maps are worthless."

This is not a correct statement if you're talking about Poser. In the Poser forum please confine your facts to those that apply to Poser, not other applications.

Poser can fully displace a single quad polygon to any degree of detail you want - it uses REYES, which means micro-polygons are built FOR YOU, during rendering.

Please study your reference material before you make any objections or other statements that confuse people.

i think she again looks better in the newer renders. the lips in particular look way better.here also is a link showing how to do positive and negative displacement properly on a figure in poser.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2759991

in regards to magnets, unlike the morph brush, which will make its own independent morphs, if you have an existing morph on, lets say brow arch and eye slant, then you add a magnet, and change the shape of the nose with it, and then spawn a morph target, that morph will incorporate all the morphs you currently have on for that body part. so, if you want it to be individual and separately dialable, you have to reset the part to zero before spawning a morph target.

 magnets are great. keep in mind the key to using them is shaping and manipulating the magnet zone. symmetry is easy where needed with just copy and paste and flipping the pos/neg values where needed of the mag and mag zones. make a mag zone on the head, change the xy&z scale of the zone and move it to the chin or nose and just mess with it to get a feel for whats possible. manipulating both the zone and the magnet gives a huge range of possibility very simply.

**vilters wrote
**Displacement maps will raise topology, = correct, but it WILL NOT increase polycount.
Polygon count stays exactly the same as before.

**bagginsbill wrote
**Poser can fully displace a single quad polygon to any degree of detail you want - it uses REYES, which means micro-polygons are built FOR YOU, during rendering.

so then the REYES micro-polygon count is razed then. So if I word it that way ? is every one happy ?

**
**

** **

bagginsbill quote

Evidence please. This meme keeps coming back and whoever says it wanders off like an Alzheimer patient when I ask for visual evidence that a bump map and a normal, made with the same level of care, produce a difference in appearance.

since you ask so nicely .I'm not making a video to show you how bumps vs normal treat shadows from lights.

.there's not a create bump map button in zBrush.
.all the best looking game meshes have normal maps on them.
. allegorithmic makes normal maps.
. quixel makes normal maps.

so if the old timey bump maps are so great then why would any one bother with normals ?

cuse n hate me all you want but don't use the word Alzheimers again.
ya never know who on here might have kin with Alzheimers.

** **

I do have to say while the characters look nice, I usually wait for sales. Part of it is the current economy. The sort of pout lip look tends to make me want to see how that will look with other expressions. I worry that the morph might change or look odd during a particular expression. I do greatly admire trying to make individual and unique looking characters.

Edited to add the following

Nice to have a thread talking about texture maps, topology, polycount, and more.

THANKS TETSUTORA AND KAZAM561!!  That's the very first compliment I ever got since this thread.  All the rest are critics or talking about other subjects MAJOR SIGH  I seriously wondered if I was even going in the right direction or not, NO ONE WAS TELLING ME!  WTF???  All everyone was talking about was what I was doing wrong, what looked bad.. etc or blender and bump/displacement stuff, I never knew if I was going in a good direction till you two told me.  Thanks!

Anyways, working on bump textures, and thanks AmbientShade for the magnets instruction, and Tetsutora for the link, gonna have a play with tonight :)

sigh did I only ask for critics?  Shame on me lol, hopefully people will start saying "hey, now she's looking nice, you're going in the right direction" :) Critics make you learn, sure, but COMPLIMENTS AND ENCOURAGEMENTS make you go further.  Am I correct?

I commend you for sticking  your neck out in the first place. :) Good on you.

Thanks booksbydavid, I guess I do have a lot of guts according to world standards, but it's what you gotta do to learn.  My real name, Bernie, I learned that it stands as "brave as a bear".  I didn't really believe that for a long time, and that I was named that cause of that.  I was actually named after my grandpa.

I'm a little guy, but I never backed down to bullies, even big ones, I've always stood my ground, win or lose, I didn't care, I knew what was right and wrong.  Also I have a quick learning ability and the willingness to learn things, also love learning things.  I guess that all goes hand in hand, wouldn't you say?  Not that I'm boastful about it, everyone's got great abilities, and everyone's got bad ones.  I'm almost deaf, that's my inability and I shy away from group talks cause I can't understand what people say.  I like talking one on one, then we both understand each other.  What I'm getting at is everyone's equal, no matter the so called "handy cap" (I hate that word) we have, we all have our ups and down in life.

...wolfie

@Morkonan: Funny you should mention return rates, in all honesty, I've never had one product returned from a customer, not even so much as a complaint.  Only a couple of technical situation in which a customer didn't understand.  On my renders here, yes, I can see that the IDL lights aren't doing justice on her specular values, the IBL lights show them though, so I'll have to play with the lights some.

Can anyone tell me if she looks adult or not?  I've not had one respond on that since I changed her body morphs.

If you haven't had any quality concerns or legitimate complain returns, then pat yourself on the back for knowing that the customers who purchased your products were satisfied with their purchase. That is meaningful, no matter how disappointed you may have been with this particular product's sales. But, remember - A potential customer only knows what you tell them. If you're wondering about why someone may not have bought what you believe is a great product, THAT is the first thing you must examine, always. Did they know it was a great product? Be sure to answer this in your marketing, else no magic pixie dust is going to be sprinkled around which informs them how great it is. (You can not count on word of mouth, alone. "Word of Mouth" doesn't pay your electric bill. :) )

As far as an "adult" looking figure, I'd say she was in her 20's or so, given her... somewhat statuesque build. (Wide hips, plenty of jiggly bits...) There's a small amount of neotany going on there, but not enough to make the character look entirely juvenile. Neotany characters are fairly popular, but without exception, they're all adults, even though most "fairy" producer's characters wouldn't be given driver licenses in most states in the US, if only their faces were used as a criterion.

Note: The bottom lip needs a bit more bulge and more cleft beneath it. Check the original V4 head mesh and note the edges where these adjustments need to be made in your face sculpt. Pay close attention to increasing the bulge of the lower lip and the cleft that needs to be there and where, exactly, the original edges for those features are on your sculpt. Those areas get lots of deformations in certain default expression sets, so you want your custom sculpt to deform well with them.

The eyes may be a smidge too far apart. That's not, necessarily, "wrong." But, you might want to bump the eye-size a small bit (.2, perhaps?), if you plan on keeping the eyes spaced that far apart. (Check morphs like squint and some brow-lowering morphs as well as the eye/cheek morph (whatever it's called) to see how the eyes look with these morphs at or around 1. Then you'll know what you might want to do to improve their look, if needed. Yes, you're a slave to V4's topology, even though it's your morph. :) )

Because of the sever nature of the custom lips, somewhat subdued since you started reworking them, you may wish to consider making a custom smile and frown morph as well as pucker and pucker wide. (Or, just one custom pucker that can be substituted in lieu of V4's various pucker morphs, which will likely be called by many Expression Packs your customers might try to use.) V4's smile and pucker morphs tend to use up a few more faces below the lips than one would think. It may be due to there not being enough of them, there, considering all the other expression deformations. This tends to cause quite a few faces around the mouth to "move up" the face of V4 when smile morphs are used, often resulting in what can only be called a "poop-eating grin" effect found in many custom face morphs when "smile" morphs are used. :) The cleft below the bottom lip can also get over-pronounced in custom face morphs when certain expressions are used. (You'll have to check a few of them to see if that happens in your case.) Again, an issue due more geometry being needed there. (That's not a dig against V4! She's got plenty of geometry to play with. It's just that getting custom faces and their topology, that are very different from the original's, to work well with all of V4's expressions can be difficult to do, at times.)

And you are correct, I didn't market Tina Perez well and tell what a great product she is, thus low sales.  That will change though, thanks to all of you for pointing out what I was doing wrong :)

Cleft in the bottom lip, you talking about a minor crease in the middle?  Never even thought of that, and it's one thing that's overlooked by most vendors and customers.  I'm not changing Tina's face any further, but I'll think about that on my next adult character.

Expressions... ahh, yes, a subject I like to talk about... See, when I make my morphs, I check the expression dials to make sure she looks good and recognizable when you use an expression on her.   Even after my final full body image (this same thread page), after the final lip, eyes, face editing, you see her smiling... that is, if you looked closely.  I did that on purpose to show off her ability to smile without cringe.

Now let's see one of the Reese Sisters, the youngest one, Carla.  Lots of custom morphs in her face.  I'm gonna do a render of her smiling and frowning... no, how about pouting. 

This is something I can't do with most custom morphed figures I bought from other vendors cause they "cringe" and look bad, or you simply can't recognize them (This is why most characters' promos have no expression, to hide their deform when expressions are applied)  I always have at least one promo in every product with an expression or two to show that she can handle them...even in my very first product promos, Tindra Thompson (in fact, look at this render http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1949720 )  Hell, even my Lucy Zepp teens/kids have expressions written all over them on the main promo.

Ok, here's a render... First image, you're giving her a candy so she gives this excited "open mouth" smile.  Second image... frown???  Hell, let's go for the extreme, let's go for a big pout, you just told her to clean her room and now she's having a cow... lol

This is her normal skin, didn't feel like rendering the SSS version, nor did I feel like rendering in IDL light, too time consuming just to show expressions.

jamminwolf so do ya think my babys pretty ? LOL ,bad joke,bad joke.

if I ever do cute n cuddly. ScareCrow take me to the asylum.
 
I do like this render :)
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2227998&recent_upload&user_id=534626&member
cute n sweet ,not really my thing or apparently compliments.

but I have no doubt if ya keep fighting like you do and get a good work flow with some killer tools your be a top 10 vender in no time.

this forum is changing my .jpg size.

how do you get to the HTML to set .jpg size ?

 

**vilters wrote
**Displacement maps will raise topology, = correct, but it WILL NOT increase polycount.
Polygon count stays exactly the same as before.

 

**bagginsbill wrote
**Poser can fully displace a single quad polygon to any degree of detail you want - it uses REYES, which means micro-polygons are built FOR YOU, during rendering.

 

so then the REYES micro-polygon count is razed then. So if I word it that way ? is every one happy ?

**
**

 

 

** **

And we are both correct, LOL.

Make / build a single polygon. A simple square, 4 vertex at the corners, 4 edges,  and a single face, you have ONE single sided polygon. => Next, UV_unwrap it, and you have a UV_Map for that single polygon.
Now texture it with an 4096x4096 texture map, and add a 4096x4096 pixel displacement map.

**What is happening at render time?
**
You render your single polygon, with its texture, with the displacemnt map, and if you did the UV_unwrapping correctly, you have 4096x4096  pixels "acting" as 4096x4096 micropolygons.

But?

• The actual polygon count is still 1 (one)
• Rendered are the 4096x4096 pixels from the texture, pushed in 3D by the 4096x4096 displacement map.
• Result => "Visually" you have 4096x3096 pixels "acting" as micropolygons.

Pffft, what an explanation, but polygon count is still 1 (one)

That's one skull I wouldn't cuddle with haha!

Thanks for the compliment, RorrKonn, if I was doing this full time (didn't have a RL job), I have no doubt that I would become a top 10 as well, especially cause I have guts to ask for critics lol.

Was gonna upload an image, but there was something I forgot...

k... wanted to do a nude render, also show off one of her tan lines, got one of her gen hair loaded as well (will include those if I'm able to update her in the store).  Also updated the bump maps and settings, not that you can really see from this distance.  I have no doubt she now looks adult! 

jamminwolf : I'm thinking milf.Like the tan lines.

I hate to give advice about what your making thou.

Areo Soul morph was popular I really liked the body but I did not like the face.
another vender made a killing off a prop that I never would have thought would have sold once.

so all I can say for sure is make killer renders for promos.

When I'm making my Art .I set my Art beside the best Artist Boris ,Royo etc etc to judge my Art.

so I don't know maybe you could set your morphs beside top venders morphs. 

vilters : can't wait to hear your all's divination of poser vector maps :)
as soon as poser supports them.

&

how do you get to the HTML to set .jpg size ?

jamminwolf : I'm thinking milf.Like the tan lines.

I hate to give advice about what your making thou.

Areo Soul morph was popular I really liked the body but I did not like the face.
another vender made a killing off a prop that I never would have thought would have sold once.

so all I can say for sure is make killer renders for promos.

When I'm making my Art .I set my Art beside the best Artist Boris ,Royo etc etc to judge my Art.

so I don't know maybe you could set your morphs beside top venders morphs. 

Lol, "milf" hehe. figured I'd make her body quite adault, as in like she already had a kid.  In fact, instead of an age progress add-on, I might just make a daughter, with Tina's custom face morph, and a mix of her V4 morphs and another V4 morphs (mom & dad's characteristics), with the cheapest price Rendo will allow. The tan lines are made via color node & separate tan image, but I learned that if you have gamma correction on, it won't work, I asked BB if he can help cause I only have Poser 9, which doesn't have GC.  and can't test them. He said he would but apparently hasn't had time,  so for now I'll just use what I have & warn customers to turn GC off.

Yes, Areo Soul made some killer bodies, I too don't like the face, just too weird looking.

...wolfie 

The tan lines are made via color node & separate tan image, but I learned that if you have gamma correction on, it won't work, I asked BB if he can help cause I only have Poser 9, which doesn't have GC.  and can't test them. He said he would but apparently hasn't had time,  so for now I'll just use what I have & warn customers to turn GC off.

Newer versions of Poser have several ways to use GC, especially involving the image map, before rendering corrections. You will not have access to those hooks in your material room. So, users with GC enabled should manually set the GC for any black&white process node/channel maps, like trans/bump/displace/spec/blend node B&W maps/etc, to 1.

Example: http://i.imgur.com/yzW27kn.jpg

If one doesn't manually set GC, "1" in the case of these sorts of maps, Poser will apply default GC to the image. This can cause B&W maps to grey out or become undefined, resulting in bad transmaps for hair, bad overlays, etc..  One can also use Scenefixer to do this, but it's easier and often less troublesome to just go through one's nodes by hand, making the correct adjustments.

PS - You could get someone to do this for you, in a later version of Poser, then simply upload the corrected Material Pose room files to a Free section for "GC-enabled Poser users."

And you are correct, I didn't market Tina Perez well and tell what a great product she is, thus low sales.  That will change though, thanks to all of you for pointing out what I was doing wrong :)

The only thing you did "wrong" was starting off with nail polish and eye texture options. The rest was guilt by "omission", not necessarily by conduct. ;)

Cleft in the bottom lip, you talking about a minor crease in the middle?  Never even thought of that, and it's one thing that's overlooked by most vendors and customers.  I'm not changing Tina's face any further, but I'll think about that on my next adult character.

It's called the "Bottom Lip Cleft" morph area in V4's standard face morphs, IIRC. Sec...

Move the indicated edges on the bottom lip out a little bit, to define it better when morphing. (So it doesn't flatten out a lot.) The bottom lip "cleft" is that indention below the lip. Move that in, slightly. (You'll have to do that after you move the bulge of the bottom lip out a bit and then judge how much you need.) You may need to favor the faces/edges lower on the face more than the ones closer to the bottom lip region if there's not a lot of real-estate to play with when emphasizing that cleft. Check the morphs, after. Also, the chin edges tended to crawl up during certain morphs. After your done with adjustments, watch for that and see what effect it has. On undefined chins, it can wipe them out to a flat surface. On well-defined chin morphs with deep clefts and short separation between the bottom lip and chin, it can push the top of the chin into the bottom lip. You shouldn't have that issue, since you've got a lot of space there, but I don't know how many faces/edges are between the chin and bottom lip. If too few, the morph effects will be magnified. Yes, these are all little nitpicky things. :) But, every bit of attention to detail is worth it and these sorts of adjustments don't take a lot of time for someone who is used to working with V4's face.

This is something I can't do with most custom morphed figures I bought from other vendors cause they "cringe" and look bad, or you simply can't recognize them (This is why most characters' promos have no expression, to hide their deform when expressions are applied)  I always have at least one promo in every product with an expression or two to show that she can handle them...even in my very first product promos, Tindra Thompson (in fact, look at this render http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1949720 )  Hell, even my Lucy Zepp teens/kids have expressions written all over them on the main promo.

Ok, here's a render... First image, you're giving her a candy so she gives this excited "open mouth" smile.  Second image... frown???  Hell, let's go for the extreme, let's go for a big pout, you just told her to clean her room and now she's having a cow... lol

You're right and this is good work. Child faces are a little difficult due to lack of real-estate needed to make corrections for standard morphs. However, one thing that does help is the "Face Size" morph in the main V4 Facemorph channel. Giving that a .2 or so generally gets you a decent set of proportions to work off of, since a child's face is smaller, proportionally, to the flesh/skull of the head. Widening the distance between the eyes, shortening the nose, making the gap between septum and top lip greater (depending on age) and making the jaw narrower/smaller tends to round out most of what you can do. Emphasizing the forehead with a separate morph, enlarging the upper skull area with a custom morph (V4 doesn't have a standard one for that.) and enlarging and lowering the ears, to again emphasize the cranium proportions, sort of finishes things off a bit. After that, it's a morphform headsize setting slightly larger than normal along with all the rest of the necessary developmental proportion percentage changes. (Morphforms are teh evil.... ) Needless to say, making a good child face is very difficult with only default V4 morphs and it takes some tweaking. However, V4 has a goodly number of verts in her face and it's not too difficult once you get used to working with the topology. Expressions, however, are very difficult to work with and often move parts of a custom morph that shouldn't be moved. What you can do is enable the expression, export the head, make the corrections in your chosen app, import that head as a morph target and then back-out the expression with a negative value, save that resulting morph as a dial-controled morph hooked to the expression it was created for and then, walla, instant fix. :) Easy, right? :D

And you are correct, I didn't market Tina Perez well and tell what a great product she is, thus low sales.  That will change though, thanks to all of you for pointing out what I was doing wrong :)

Cleft in the bottom lip, you talking about a minor crease in the middle?  Never even thought of that, and it's one thing that's overlooked by most vendors and customers.  I'm not changing Tina's face any further, but I'll think about that on my next adult character.

Expressions... ahh, yes, a subject I like to talk about... See, when I make my morphs, I check the expression dials to make sure she looks good and recognizable when you use an expression on her.   Even after my final full body image (this same thread page), after the final lip, eyes, face editing, you see her smiling... that is, if you looked closely.  I did that on purpose to show off her ability to smile without cringe.

Now let's see one of the Reese Sisters, the youngest one, Carla.  Lots of custom morphs in her face.  I'm gonna do a render of her smiling and frowning... no, how about pouting. 

This is something I can't do with most custom morphed figures I bought from other vendors cause they "cringe" and look bad, or you simply can't recognize them (This is why most characters' promos have no expression, to hide their deform when expressions are applied)  I always have at least one promo in every product with an expression or two to show that she can handle them...even in my very first product promos, Tindra Thompson (in fact, look at this render http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1949720 )  Hell, even my Lucy Zepp teens/kids have expressions written all over them on the main promo.

Ok, here's a render... First image, you're giving her a candy so she gives this excited "open mouth" smile.  Second image... frown???  Hell, let's go for the extreme, let's go for a big pout, you just told her to clean her room and now she's having a cow... lol

This is her normal skin, didn't feel like rendering the SSS version, nor did I feel like rendering in IDL light, too time consuming just to show expressions.

Did you create this character? If so you did a good job. This is great work.  The other one still needs A LOT of work.

I wwas checking out Morkonan free stuff

saw a Brad Pitt Achilles out fit for G2 on the add to the right.

killer movie by the way .So I click on the add

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=110126

so what was the first thing I noticed ?

the inter cut on the Achilles shield is modeled like a game mesh and the texture is a bit off.

99.9% of every thing is perfect but that .01% that's off.

maybe why it's on sell 40% off.

Hey jamminwolf....keep checking the evolution of this thread and...

IMO your last render of Tina (the one with the tan lines) is the best one yet.

Mind you, I may be in the minority by having a preference for the more mature character.

I like to make my own characters look different to the norm and keep an eye out for venders who do the same.

That's what attracted me to your Lucy Zepp product :)

daz poser uses the Greek rules of characters. Marvel and DC does also.

a adult head is 5 eyes wide 7 eyes tall

a adult body is 8 heads tall.

the shorter you make the face the younger the face will look.

the more you shorten the body the younger the body will look.

younger they are the shorter the legs also.

google is full of ratios n charts using all kinds of measurements

every thing from the Greeks,golden main to a ruler.

fat cheeks n a small nose will make them look younger also. 

They say knowledge is power.

I would think all the top Artist are aware of all this.

golden mean or golden ratio _ google

there's google n you tube to search all this as much as you want.
I only pay attention to the Art part of them.some links will wonder off to none Artist materials.

golden mask _ google

http://www.beautyanalysis.com/

http://www.goldennumber.net/beauty/

you can google ,you tube how to apply good make up

**Human anatomy
** schools would have you learn all the names of the muscles & bones
I can't even pronounce half of them .LOL.

composition _
https://fstoppers.com/architecture/ultimate-guide-composition-part-one-just-say-nokeh-31359

color _

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj1FK8n7WgY

Did you create this character? If so you did a good job. This is great work.  The other one still needs A LOT of work.

Thanks a lot, friend! Yes, she's Carla in the Reese Sisters product http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/reese-sisters/103863/
I did the face morphs, P3Design supplied the textures and we did the makeups

Tina is getting a lot of makeover, even just decided to edit the textures, and am gonna re-do the tattoos.  Yesterday I edited her speculars.  It's a lot of work, yes, but still fun as she's looking better.

@RorrKonn: am looking at the links you supplied.  I did do a render of her, and copied just the head 8 times and stacked them up she's about 7 & 1/2 heads tall, but then again she's only 5ft 5in, a tad bit shorter then average (which is 5ft 6in for women).  Yes, her legs are slightly shorter (Stephanie4 proportion "Petite" at 0.400).  I don't like leaving my characters at default V4 height, which is 5ft 10in, unless I want to do a very tall basketball player.

...wolfie

left to right.
Posetta ,Chrome ,Diamond ,V6 super model.
Chromes looks 7 feet tall doesn't he ?
he's 5 foot 3 inches tall.in the real world

the Greeks great illusion
how tall is supermans & batmans ?
if a eye is one inch then a head is 7 inches tall.
real humans is 9 inches or more
7*8=56 inches tall
56 inches = 4.66666666667 feet tall
so supermans & batmans is a bit taller then 4 1/2 feet tall.in the real world.

the Greeks 5x7x8 ratios just looks better then real human ratios.
I think Posetta follows it to a T.

daz uses the Greeks 5x7x8 ratios as a guild line ,more or less.
they always make the face a bit small.
I think it's to keep from there meshes looking to young.
kids heads body ratio is different then adults ,kids heads are a bit big for there bodies.
so if ya make a head a bit small it gives the illusion that there older.

I just use the Greeks 5x7x8 ratios as a guild line.
Chromes face is 7.5

the first girls face I posted I asked if she was pretty.
the response was.it's a girl ? LOL.
I can do evil n dark easy but some thing pretty .LOL.

there's a saying natures gold is green.
meaning younger is best.
so the younger a girl looks the prettier she is.
it's a trick to make a girl look 18 + 1 day old in the face.

it's no big deal where not doing CAD but I don't know if posers ruler is real world or a Art world ruler.
there's the real world and then there's the Art world that's an illusion.
poor short superman ;)

Ok guys, I was doing some major editing on the textures, but saved the old skin, and there's a little bit of color difference.  Seeing that someone said there weren't very much details on the skin, I decided to add a daughter, named Kim Perez and name the product "Like Mother Like Daughter".  Probably a 10 yr old.  Tina now looks like she's about 30 yrs old.  Or, if I want to make Kim a 13 or 15 yr old, I'll name the product "Sisters of the Stars" (got that idea from the stars tattoo).

A lot of work, but when I finish the young one's face morph, I'll upload an image of the two side by side.

BTW Morkonan, I edited Tina's bottom lip and chin, there's now more definition on her bottom lip.

...wolfie

 jamminwolf : sounds great.

if it wouldn't be to much trouble.
when ya post ya jpgs think ya could also have a front side golden ratio mask layed on them ?

 

 jamminwolf : sounds great.

if it wouldn't be to much trouble.
when ya post ya jpgs think ya could also have a front side golden ratio mask layed on them ?

 

No idea what you're talking about, went to the page and see a bunch of html coldes to copy.  Do you mean when I load the .jpg images in a post?

the wounders of the web

thought maybe you could post some .jpgs of ya characters face under the golden ratio mask .like these pics :)

lol how the heck do I do that?  No clue where to paste what, and why do you want me to do that?

get the mask here
http://www.beautyanalysis.com/research/perfect-face/facial-masks/

render front and side face of your characters
in your 2D app
put your render on layer one
put the golden ratio mask on layer two .mask and erase the white.

golden ratio mask it's for 9 eyes tall not 7 eyes tall.
I don't no how many eyes tall V4 is
since where making greek versions and not real humans might need to modify the golden ratio mask a bit.
would need to modify for kids also. 

as to why
the closer your morph is to the golden ratio mask.
the better your odds for more sells :)

Apparently you've studied this mask thing, and only maybe a handful of customers follow the rules of head/eyes/body size & length.  This is the first time I've even heard about this golden mask rule myself.  But really, if she wasn't matching this mask thing, I seriously doubt it'll dent the sales, as I seriously doubt 99% of the people even care about it, as long as the products look good, and close enough to look like a real human (or a fairy or whatever they want), and the price is right, then they'll buy it.

And again I seriously doubt 99% of vendors even bother comparing their face morphs either, much less even know about this golden mask.  Of course, most of them make fairies wannabes/kiddie faces on adult bodies anyways.

I do look at images of women and study, looking from my characters to them to see if she looks right, especially the young/teens.  And I have a V4 height scale that a friend built for me, I used a freebie height scale a famous freebie creator made (forgot his name) to make the texture of the V4 height scale, as well as learned how tall V4 is according to Poser rule of length (which is 5ft 10 & 1/2in).  I use it all the time to ensure the women and kids are the size according to their ages following a progressive growth scale thing.  The women, I usually set them at around 5ft 6in, average height of women (don't know about Greeks though, but I do know average American women are that tall).

As for the price, this is why I'm adding a second character, either a sister or daughter (what I have now looks about 13 yrs old).

I'll do the layer thing, I'd have to copy this mask thing to my main computer (not connected to the internet) cause I didn't install my art programs to the laptop.

For now, I need to hit the hay for work tomorrow, just came back from my parents, been there all evening.

...wolfie

jamminwolf : 

Most venders aren't real Artist.they do a few tricks and fail as a vender and wonder why.
They don't even know enough about Art to even know why they failed.

most haven't heard of the golden main before but every one is surrounded by it every day of there hole life.
most haven't heard of the golden ratio mask or ever maid there own.

since the golden ratio mask is all over the web I thought it would be a excellent place for you to start.
I have my own mask that I made for males ,females from head to toe ,long before PC's.
but all boys judged girls buy the golden ratio mask there hole life.

doesn't matter what any one else knows it's what they see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teaBK6YEQi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKiXKSQGq3A

do they look better before or after ?

won't better sell better then worse ?

Haha, those two videos were interesting, and yes they do look better after.  but what I concentrate is real human features, not "perfect" humans.  I may not be the greatest but well...

Anyways, I tried my best to place a primitive plane with the golden ratio mask on it (image and trans-map applied, no shadows, no light emitter, ambient set at white), same ratio as the image, zeroed Tina and camera rotation & tran, camera pointing straight to her face.  Placed the mask just before her face as best as I can and rendered.

Thus now I see why her height is 7 & 1/2 of her head size, her chin & jaw might be a little too tall (Long face in "full head & face" not applied).  However, her eyes were lowered some already, and there's no way to lower her eyebrows.  It actually looks to me like if I shrink the "Long Face", the mask might fit better.  But I fear if I do that, people will start saying "too young" again, and I'm trying to shy away from that, as I really want Tina to be an adult character (both face and body).

As for the "mad"  or angled down eyebrows, I don't like those at all, I don't care how many photo models have them, I never liked them, I always like the natural looking eyebrows, not high model stuff.  Down to earth, know what I mean?  Real people.

This is interesting though.  At first I didn't care about this mask thing, but it may teach me some things further so I'll have a play with another character.  I won't change Tina, I've already changed her enough and she looks good as is.  Here's the image...