Lol. You're one of the coolest/skilled folks on this forum obm890, hope your modeling is going well.

Those are pretty damn cool, Primorge, and I don't recall seeing any of those sculpts on your site even though I do recall the devil plate you made.
I also recognise where those creepy faces come from on your Primorge avatar, very cool, but I have to ask, is the piece functional as a jug or whatever?

Just one point against you is your strange fetish for posting tiny images, that's a pain in the arse!
Hard to fully appreciate at those sizes.

Yeah, going to resize and re-everything my web imagery. All of my archive digital files are pretty big, generally up to 6k res. My physical slides? 35mm. One of the reasons I just took everything down, that and profiling to sRGB. I Just pulled those images off my FB page, which mangles to begin with. Right now I'm working on that, and for Poser I've been working on a figure which is almost done. Hacking in the erc for all of the linked morphs/rotations is a nightmare, since I just use a text editor for .cr2 editing. Thanks to Nerd, bloodsong, LesBentley, and Teyon for all of the info that I've managed to dig up. 

Nice talking to you again Pumeco, even if you do think I'm a lemming. ;)

Yeah, the piece is functional, glazed inside. Some artist in San Francisco bought it. I still have the mold I made for it though. I sculpted the original and made a 2 part slip cast mold for it, production mold making is one of my interests. Way OT! I'm sucha creep...

Back to a period of lurking.

You can only post about 250 kb images here pumeco.

Primorge Wrote:
"Nice talking to you again Pumeco, even if you do think I'm a lemming. ;)"

Not that again, lol, you do dwell on things, Primorge :-D

I don't really think you're a lemming just cause you have an iPad no more than I think Baggins is a lemming for owning one.  And as for Doric, well, he can't possibly be a lemming cause he doesn't even have one!  Stop taking things too seriously, just add your avatar back to Primorge and get your ass back on my firend list where you belong.

You're far too weird not to be on it!

In fact, I tell ya what, I'll buy a bloody iPad - how about that?  Biggest mistake ever no doubt, but I need something light and energy-efficient for a trip I have planned anyway, so what the hell, certainly beats dragging a bloody laptop around with me.  But I'm telling you now, there had better be an app for showing a list of all Retro-Babes within ten miles of wherever I am.  I sincerely hope "There's an app for that!", cause otherwise I might be tempted to enter an Apple store and use it as a boomerang on one of their Geniuses - Roxie style!

Primorge Wrote:
"Yeah, the piece is functional, glazed inside. Some artist in San Francisco bought it. I still have the mold I made for it though. I sculpted the original and made a 2 part slip cast mold for it, production mold making is one of my interests."

I have a passing interest in mold making on and off, but yup, we'd better shut it or we'll be for the chop :-P
But I really like the jug, something oddly creepy about it.

It used to scare some of the feminazi chicks in the studio (who ironically couldn't stay away). "Ewww, that thing is so creepy." Exasperated sounds, fondle, fondle. The handles are, ummm, handy...Had a real highfalutin' sculpture instructor (noteworthy in the california ceramics culture) pick it up and rub it all over himself. Lol.

The title is '3 of a kind'.

Bye.

Agreed. Comparing this thread to the identical RDNA thread is just embarrassing...

You mean the one with like 2 replies? ;)  I guess over there we are still discussing the move to add a deactivation service to the GD version...

Agreed. Comparing this thread to the identical RDNA thread is just embarrassing...

You mean the one with like 2 replies? ;)  I guess over there we are still discussing the move to add a deactivation service to the GD version...

No we are comparing it to the same titled thread which has 22 responses to date, look for the Poser 11 forum not the link in the Poser 10/2014 forum  Not as many as here but then how many responses here added anything useful to the discussion.  

Isn't the discussion all speculation to begin with?

As in, one persons opinion about life on other planets is in someway more useful.

Isn't the discussion all speculation to begin with?

Yes, my post was just to point people to their the correct thread and let them make up their own minds, not on which thread had the best information more on how it was presented.

Agreed. Comparing this thread to the identical RDNA thread is just embarrassing...

You mean the one with like 2 replies? ;)  I guess over there we are still discussing the move to add a deactivation service to the GD version...

No we are comparing it to the same titled thread which has 22 responses to date, look for the Poser 11 forum not the link in the Poser 10/2014 forum  Not as many as here but then how many responses here added anything useful to the discussion.  

Yeah, I've got a post in that thread...  There are no other posts yet in the P11/2016 forum, so that may be why there's so little discussion in that thread.

Having said that - my answer is Yes! Yes, some content creators are variously lazy and ignorant - take your pick. They either don't have the skills or the knowledge and fail to acquire either. I don't understand why I see these in the store. I won't name names, but some of them are famous. Conversely, some do take the lessons learned and trouble themselves to put a Fresnel_Blend into their shaders, or maybe to run EZSkin since Snarly and I both made all that tech free for commercial use - don't even mention us, you're welcome.

I don't think it serves any real purpose to ask the inferiors to stop, nor even to offer unsolicited advice.

Well, I don't think anyone should ask anyone producing anything for Poser to "stop." But, maybe asking them to "learn" might be better. And, there's something to be said for stewardship, of course. I don't care who it is, if they sell it, their name is on it, even if they didn't manufacture it.

But, not wishing to derail, but it's very pertinent to this question... (For those just waiting to flame up, I'm stating now I won't participate in any war.)

The only "content" producers are what you see in places like Renderosity's marketplace. Sure, there are a other places to go for content, like RDNA and, rarely, DAZ. There's Contentparadise, but, honestly, there's nothing there I'd want to buy, since it's mostly for native-content support products and a few other things.

The problem is that the only major producer of Poser products no longer produces them. (Barely) They were also one of a handful where comparative quality was fairly guaranteed. There are certainly vendors and some outfits that produce quality products, but now the lion's share of producing quality Poser content rests directly on their shoulders in a market that is under assault by a flood of inferior products. They can't keep up with the demand for quality products and, I'd imagine, their market is shrinking, bit by bit. Instead, lower quality products that don't make much use of anything past Poser 6 flood the shelves...

Effectively, what SM does is make a development platform and then tell its audience "Have at it!" The strategy is a good one, if you have a vibrant creator community. But, if you don't, and, instead, most of that community of creators don't touch your product's new features, and if you're not being a good steward at producing companion products that take advantage of it, every penny of development cost that went into that new feature is wasted. All of it. Well, most of it, at any rate, since the majority of the products that appear on the shelf which use your product don't use any of the new features and there is no way for your users to become familiar with them.
You mentioned that "Poser has had that for awhile" (Forget what it was, atm, not going to chance the post blowing up while I hunt for it) and then produced a render example. It's a feature that I guarantee you that some coder, somewhere, sweated over and got paid for and was proud to do it... that is wasted as any "value-added" component of Poser. It's all wasted because nobody is going to be making products that take advantage of it. They either don't know how or users have no idea it's even possible.

This business model, evolved in the days when content creation was generally handled in a much more professional manner and very good marketing and brand stewardship was free advertising for the platform, is no longer sustainable. (Well, if I was worried about it, the term I would use would be "coughing up blood.")

I want to see Poser 25. But, it is not going to happen unless an organized and knowledgeable team creates quality products that continue to take serious advantage of new product features and act as a continuing source of promotion for the platform.

You, and a handful of loyal veteran warriors, are the only ones who consistently inform and demonstrate features of each iteration of Poser that users wouldn't even know about, since nothing they have in their huge stable of content will take advantage of it. Part of this is due to legacy compatibility issues, but the major fault lies in the lack of quality content producers. Poser users would not need their legacy content if the shelves were full with products of like quality.

It's not a vendor-bashing statement. It's directed at the future of the Program when the vendors, who produce the driving content of the platform, are just no longer able to provide quality content that takes advantage of new features. IF the developer isn't going to do it, if vendors aren't going to do it, and if users can't do it, then a magic goat isn't going to appear and do it.

If I was SM, I'd be working on a team to push the envelope to produce the quality content necessary to act as a jump-starter for the marketplace and I'd run the marketing department over-time, every week, with content-promotion and content-creation partnerships with quality vendors who push the limits of new platform features. New features are great, but they're meaningless if there aren't any products that use them.

PS - Sorry for the lengthy post. I'm verbose, anyway, but I will be away-from-keyboard for quite awhile and wanted to get this out.

I've been following this thread for a while and thought I would just lurk, but I'm gonna make a comment. I'm hoping that Nerd is following this thread. I think that when the next Poser ships, they need to do several things to help the new user and clear out a lot of the native content that harks back as far as Poser 7. That means dump all the very dumb shaders that come stock with Poser because they were not made for the current version, they still use all the old hacks that we used to use. Make new and updated shaders. Knock on BB's door to get some. Dump the old lights and load in light sets that will work 'out of the box' with IDL. If they are going to insist on still including IBL light sets then fix the bug in the GC of images attached to an IBL!!!! (pet peeve of mine because sometimes I like the look of IBL but can't use it any more in Poser 10). Include a World Sphere along with those HDRs they've included with Poser. Have tutorial scenes ready with the new lights, world sphere, and IDL. Native Poser figures (from new all the way back to Posette) should load with proper SSS shaders developed by BB and Snarly so newbies know what is standard instead of learning about it by digging around in the forums. Please, please change the 'out of the box' default camera that is set at 25mm! Make all the content that comes with the program be as current as the features inside the program! Oh, yeah, and about GC...fix how it is implimented! If I change GC from 2.20 to 1.9, the render should be darker, not lighter! If I play with GC in Iray or Luxrender and take it to 2.0 or 1.9, the image is darker as it should be. Give us saturation control at time of render, not the tone mapping options that are included now (both of which look terrible). I'll probably think of others after I post this.

Things like this will encourage the new user and maybe some of the older users who just keep doing Poser 6 and 7 renders in the newest version of Poser without trying out the new features. I very much welcome a PBR render option for Poser. Cycles was not a choice I was thinking of, but if they set it up so that it translates and uses shader set ups like BB has graciously given us, then that's a big plus!

The rock and hard place decision is that people seem to be shouting "We want new technology" and that is bombarded by the shouts "We want to keep using our legacy content".

Those two mindsets do not really work together.

At some point, if people really want software to grow, they will have to accept that the legacy content will not work so well anymore. It is time to move on. If people are happy with the quality they get out of 6yr old v4 products, then fine, there really is no need for them to upgrade their software. But the people who WANT higher quality from their artwork, should not be held back by those who dont.

If the old products work fine for you..then great, the current versions of poser will still keep running and you do not have to upgrade.

@Zev
Is there any chance you could get DAZ to hide the Vickies in your promos?

Roxie just got back from her holiday at Uncle Vilters place.  I didn't even know she was back until I heard her start shouting just now.  She just caught an email to my Inbox advertising a bodysuit you made.  She thought it looked cool, but then spotted it was for a Vickie and went absolutely nuts! :-D

Nice to have her back though, it was far too quiet while she was gone.

Those two mindsets do not really work together.

Well, technically it can, provided the app has been designed in away to allow that. EG V4 still works for me inside Studio just as it did before Genesis and all its platform tech arrived. Daz can still read all the older formats besides .duf. It's all about how new features are implemented. So backwards compatibility can remain, it's all about how you make it co-exist with new features that don't hold back advances. However the main difference here is that everybody is using roughly the same version of Studio, so that doesn't really matter, therefor all is on the same page (since it's free). However with Poser, you have those happy with version 6 or 8, so yes, that can prevent the advances in new tech if content creators want those customers.

The rock and hard place decision is that people seem to be shouting "We want new technology" and that is bombarded by the shouts "We want to keep using our legacy content".

Those two mindsets do not really work together.

At some point, if people really want software to grow, they will have to accept that the legacy content will not work so well anymore. It is time to move on. If people are happy with the quality they get out of 6yr old v4 products, then fine, there really is no need for them to upgrade their software. But the people who WANT higher quality from their artwork, should not be held back by those who dont.

If the old products work fine for you..then great, the current versions of poser will still keep running and you do not have to upgrade.

If only there was a more realistic shaggy Satyr figure out. hint hint  Minotaurs can only hold the battle front for not much longer without reinforcements.

@Zev
Is there any chance you could get DAZ to hide the Vickies in your promos?

Roxie just got back from her holiday at Uncle Vilters place.  I didn't even know she was back until I heard her start shouting just now.  She just caught an email to my Inbox advertising a bodysuit you made.  She thought it looked cool, but then spotted it was for a Vickie and went absolutely nuts! :-D

Nice to have her back though, it was far too quiet while she was gone.

LOL that ain't my bodysuit. They just overlapped my sale on top of that image. That suit was made by Mada and Sarsa.

If only there was a more realistic shaggy Satyr figure out. hint hint  Minotaurs can only hold the battle front for not much longer without reinforcements.

It is on the schedule.....but got pushed back a little

If I was SM, I'd be working on a team to push the envelope to produce the quality content necessary to act as a jump-starter for the marketplace and I'd run the marketing department over-time, every week, with content-promotion and content-creation partnerships with quality vendors who push the limits of new platform features. New features are great, but they're meaningless if there aren't any products that use them.Agreed. However having such a structure in place is not cheap and takes a while to get working right. Yes there might not be any short term financial gain, but in the long run it can definitely pay off. You as a company need to show seriousness in supporting a feature or platform as well as supporting it with content, provided it's viable of course. Others will follow if you set an example.

You cannot expect others to invest in something if you the creator are not willing to do so yourself. Same applies for figures. The whole "here is a new toy, have fun" mentality doesn't work anymore from a financial standpoint. You need to invest in it if others are to invest in you. Which is why I wonder how this Cycles system is going to work. Is SM just going to release it and expect people to do things themselves, or are they going to provide users with Shaders, lights etc. Do they have content developers providing those things as well? Time will tell. If not, I doubt the casual user will be that interested if it means more work on their behalf to use the new engine.

Doing some research on PBR materials, there is a significant difference to what people are used to using with Firefly. The problem with cg/digital art making is that in relative terms the medium is still in its developmental toddler stage. What this means for artists is a constant process of re-learning and "keeping up with the jones'". Being dependent/bound to conform so much to developing tech, one could just as easily say that we are being held forward by continuous 'updates' just as much as we might be held back by compatibility. I'm not saying in any way that progress is a bad thing, who doesn't want better looking games? We're just unfortunate (?) that we live in a period of continuous flux for a form of technology.

The Mona Lisa is just as valid an oil painting today as it was when it was created.

We're just unfortunate (?) that we live in a period of continuous flux for a form of technology.

The Mona Lisa is just as valid an oil painting today as it was when it was created.

Or maybe we live in a fantastic period of development, when every day brings new tools, new technologies and new knowledge allowing us to do more and more. And for Mona Lisa, imagine the hardon Leonardo would get sitting in front of a high-end graphic station equipped with the best tools available today. Rest assured that he would not complain.

This is all great news.

This might sound like a really stupid question but are we going to be able to use the blender hair system? I've seen a video about hair in cycles and I was wondering how can we take advantage of it in the new poser.

Is it only the shaders and the rendering that will be updated for the older models or something more?

Sad that as usual everything descends into a dustup to the detriment of useful conversation. I waded through seven pages and found perhaps a half page of intelligent discussion.

I for one love the idea of a CPU-based PBR, although long-term I hope to have better GPU options. My computer itself is incomparably more powerful than my video card.

The interesting thing I've noticed is that people are howling for GPU rendering for Cycles without actually looking at what Cycles GPU rendering can do.

In the current release, there are significant differences between the capability of GPU rendering on NVIDIA cards and AMD cards. There's also differences between what can be done on the CPU and on the GPU.

Want to do subsurface scattering? Available on CPU rendering. Experimental on CUDA. You're out of luck in OpenCL. Want to do smoke or fire or volume? Well, the volume you can do on the CPU and CUDA cards. Out of luck for AMD again. And for fire and smoke, it's not happening on your video cards at all.

If I were in the process of adopting the Cycles engine, of course I'd focus on the CPU implementation. Not being able to do scattering? Yeah, that doesn't work real well for a software program designed primarily for human figures combined with a render engine that's supposed to be for realism.

One almost gets the impression that people have heard "GPU rendering" and think it's a magic term and thus there's no need to look further and see what exactly that means.

 I'm excited! It's already on my wishlist!

I want to add some thoughts here.

If Poser 11 wants to incorporate the same pattern generator nodes as in FireFly, they will either have to add those nodes to Cycles or use the Open Shading Language to add those nodes to Cycle renders. The first option is probably way too much work, but the second option means that (right now) GPU rendering is not really possible.

Please keep in mind that SuperFly will need to work with the existing materials, since many Poser users are not used to repair their shaders. People buy scenes here on Renderosity and other marketplaces, scenes with many different materials on dozens of objects. They probably want to be able to use these scenes, not recreate every material on it. The most effective way to make this possible, in my opinion, is OSL. Please remember how long it took for many people to switch to FireFly from the old P4 renderer. If activating GPU means that you will have to change just about every other shader to Cycles standards, who will do that for a big Stonemason scene? People will just tell that SuperFly is broken if it isnt able to handle this kind of stuff, if I'm not mistaken.   

And, by the way, I use Cycles a lot these days, I really like it's features. When working in Blender, I usually do test rendes on the GPU, with reduced textures. But for finals, with SSS and full blown textures, I use CPU rendering almost exclusively. 

For those who ask for GPU renderig - It's not difficult to get Poser stuff to Blender, it's just work to make the shaders work in Cycles. Try some skin shaders, there is really awesome stuff out there for cycles. If you find a skin shader which looks great and renders fast in GPU mode, drop me a line. The render times I had for SSS on GPU are comparable to my CPU render times, with my rather old GTX 650 TI. You will have to redo the shaders anyway if you plan to use GPU rendering, so do that in Blender. And don't forget to reduce the texures, otherwhise your objects may show a bright pink. That's the way Cycles shows you that it could not use the image file of the shader, probably because it did not fit in the memory of the GPU.

Bantha is right. Poser users are not going to update their shaders so I consider likely that Cycles embedding will be just a 1-to-1 mapping of FireFly nodes in Cycles ones, getting out of the deal little more than a less buggy, less sucky alternative to the previous render. All discussions I am seeing in these P11 related threads are open eyes dreams since they require the use of the Elbow Grease plugin, a no-no for point-and-clickers.

If you want the real McCoy, export your scene as OBJ, bring it into Blender, redo the shaders with Cycles or OSL and render. You can do it today, for free. No time booby trapped DRM scheme involved. When in Blender, apart from Cycles yo might check also RenderMan 20 and its Blender bridge. There is a growing thread about it on BlenderArtists forum and most posters are enthusiastic.

Also, people seem to forget that a feature may be -in- the code a version or two before they turn it on (animation layers, for example). Software has gold dates, and if a feature isn't ready, it usually isn't switched on. And considering the wealth of OSL shaders out there, Bantha's second option would be lovely if the current material room was given the option to allow for OSL to be plugged in. It might take a version or two to happen, but....

This might sound like a really stupid question but are we going to be able to use the blender hair system? I've seen a video about hair in cycles and I was wondering how can we take advantage of it in the new poser.

Is it only the shaders and the rendering that will be updated for the older models or something more?

A really good question and I would be very interested in that if it were possible.  One thing to note though the new hair system was partially devised to make hair simpler in Blender and even in Blender you have to use CPU mode.  Maybe this is not so very far away from what SM is doing a this very moment.

"If you want the real McCoy, export your scene as OBJ, bring it into Blender, redo the shaders with Cycles or OSL and render. You can do it today, for free. No time booby trapped DRM scheme involved. "

Or you could do what I have been doing for the past several months and Simply open your poser scene in Daz studio and use the free "Mcjteleblend" Script to send your poser scene to blender with auto conversion to cycles nodes......one click

I am still trying to work out how to apply Cycles Subsurface scattering to the existing skin Maps though.

@wolf359: I was abiding to the intimation that this is Poser forum and therefore the D-word should not be uttered. Actually, up to a week ago, also the word Cycles was verboten, as demonstrated by fictionalbookshelf censoring of my Cycles renders thread but the Party line has changed now.

I will note however that cycles in all its glory and state of the art holier than thou declarations of software superiority cannot overcome the lumbering giant of cheesy burnt in specular ala Poser 4, as most succinctly illustrated by wolf's sterling example above.

Just kidding.

I was going to ask if the materials are any better than 3DOutlaw's Poser export script, which uses the same import scripts, but then I saw that the 3DOutlaw-Script is no longer available, at least at the moment. They use a standard shader which kind of works but isn't that great. No Fresnel and adds diffuse and specular instead of mixing them. It would be nice to have some kind of material converter (and maybe a mdd exporter to link the scenes), but I don't have the time to write this kind of stuff right now.

I will note however that cycles in all its glory and state of the art holier than thou declarations of software superiority cannot overcome the lumbering giant of cheesy burnt in specular ala Poser 4, as most succinctly illustrated by wolf's sterling example above.

Just kidding.

You need to change the shaders. Cycles can do a lot of really great stuff, but the standard conversion won't get rid of the burned in speculars. But since Cycles can do Anisotropic correctly, you can build good hair shaders.  

Thats what I was going to say, he could of fixed that simply with a dark brown black .jpg/diffuse, anisotropic and a decent bump. Would have taken no time at all. Would have let it slide but considering the subject it seemed glaringly archaic.

Played with Cycles in Blender on my laptop this weekend, just to see what it was like.

Attached is a posed and clothed HW Baby Luna exported from Poser into Blender with the Poser materials added in the Blender node room.

No bump/displacement maps, no specular maps, nothing but the texture maps, though I did add SSS in the Blender Nodes.

Rendered in Cycles using CPU (no nVidia card in the laptop computer I was using) and no prior experience with Blender.

This image rendered in just under 4 MINUTES using CPU rendering.

great!   this means I can buy regular imac with 1GB nvidia card and not imac w/ retina 5K display and 4GB radeon card!  (beaucoup d'argent)

old imac is no good and is overheating

I bought DAZ Studio 3 Advanced, Bryce, Hexagon, Carrara, Poser, etc. Does my purchase of DAZ products mean I can't provide input on Poser?! Hell no! 

Why do people quote other posts so much?! It's really distracting.

As a semi-retired user from way back, I find the lack of development of Hair means and methods a big turnoff.  The hair room has always been horrible, and going into 2016 (Presumably) without any changes...it just seems like the elephant in the room.

 I'd welcome even a separate program dedicated to hair creation that works in real time, much along the lines of Marvelous Designer and the way it handles cloth.

 Just...something.  I mean we're 15 years into the 21st century and it still feels like 1999 to some degree.

Nice work, Glitterati!

Regarding hair, in Blender it's basically a particles thingie. Works a treat for hair, eyebrows and lashes... and fur, and smoke and clouds and instancing props like leaves on the ground and grass randomly as well. So the request to make is for SM to consider bringing particles to Poser, which would fix the hair room but also add realism to the dynamics of hair, and fur and...

There's a lot of features in Blender the Poser team would do well to have a look at. Then, it won't feel like 1999 to WTB anymore... LOL

Nice work, Glitterati!

Regarding hair, in Blender it's basically a particles thingie. Works a treat for hair, eyebrows and lashes... and fur, and smoke and clouds and instancing props like leaves on the ground and grass randomly as well. So the request to make is for SM to consider bringing particles to Poser, which would fix the hair room but also add realism to the dynamics of hair, and fur and...

There's a lot of features in Blender the Poser team would do well to have a look at. Then, it won't feel like 1999 to WTB anymore... LOL

Thank you, Robyn!  Snarlygribbly released a particles script here:  http://snarlygribbly.org/3d/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=174

There are better options out in the wild for particles. Not that Blender's aren't good, just saying they aren't the only game in town.  Tried my hand at re-rendering an old Poser scene in SuperFly. Hate the floor and the cabinet door is kind of...well...glossy but eh. I was just testing. Will need to come back to this once the engine is further along. Probably should turn on that floor lamp too...

"Thats what I was going to say, he could of fixed that simply with a dark brown black .jpg/diffuse, anisotropic and a decent bump. Would have taken no time at all. Would have let it slide but considering the subject it seemed glaringly archaic."

Hi thanks for the info sir I am still quite the noob in the blender node editor and tips like yours are very welcome.

.

I only did that "quick & dirty" render to illustrate that poser users already have FREE& easy access to cycles without waiting for a paid upgrade to poser.

@ glitterati3D, nice work there for a quickie!!

blender Cycles is still quite usable on lower end machines/laptops with no GPU capable cards But flies on higher end systems with capable cards

May I ask how/where you added the SSS node? 
I am still trying to figure that one out LOL!!

" Just...something.  I mean we're 15 years into the 21st century and it still feels like 1999 to some degree".

See my other thread titled: "I THINK IM GOING BALD"

where expressed that same sentiment regarding the state of poser/Daz hair systems.

Hair systems get pretty expensive to develop and implement pretty quickly. Even the higher end apps have struggled with getting believable hair. And a lot of it comes down to individual user skill.

Keep in mind also that hair in higher end apps is often extremely complex and even has its own rig at times. IIRC, the hair models used in Disney's Frozen - the main girl had something like 80 different hair rigs, after having an application designed specifically for her hair (talk about a high-maintenance female, lol).

However there are some artists that have done some nice hair work in Poser and DS with Z-Brush's fibermesh.

@Teyon
Looks much better, the lighting is a world away from the lighting in the other room you rendered.  And regards the particles, I'm going to take that as a hint that particles are coming to Poser 11 - even if you wasn't hinting :-P

@Shane
Two independent developers created their own hair systems for DS (very good ones), so however difficult it maybe, I suppose it's easy enough if the person developing it is good at that sort of coding.  I'm not in Nerds position and I'm not on Beta either, but one thing I can say with all certainty is that Poser 11 will have either a radically improved hair system or a brand new one.  It's a figure tool, and that aspect of it is already ancient beyond belief, they have to do something about that.  Same with the dynamic cloth system.

I'm just guessing of course, but I hope it has got improvements in those areas for the programs sake!

Snarrlygribbly has updated the Particles3 tool to work in P10 through PP2014. It's on his site and RDNA.. Works great and is free.

Where is Snarlygribbly's site at RDNA. I went there looking for the Particles 3 update and could not find it! I have Particles 3.Cheers