If your making Normals for Poser. Who has the best match Tangents for Poser ? Unity ,Unreal ,zBrush ,Mudbox,etc etc .which app's ?

Does Posers tangents change for different Render Engines ?

Thanks

Not sure, haven't spend a whole lot of time looking into using normal maps in Poser, but the times i have tried it have always resulted in some weird render problems and can really find any good information about it anywhere i think.

3D-Mobster posted at 7:22PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - #4251155

Not sure, haven't spend a whole lot of time looking into using normal maps in Poser, but the times i have tried it have always resulted in some weird render problems and can really find any good information about it anywhere i think.

That I know of. 1 _ normals will look bad if the bakeing meshes aren't matched up very well or parts of the mesh are to close together with same group names. 2 _ if the tangents are wrong. unity and unreal can't use each other tangents. zBrush normals don't do good in Blender.

The general rule is make the normals in the app your using...lol ,Poser can't bake normals.

Anyone know any Venders that use normals ? a Venders name that use's normals could be helpful.

I used Normals for displacement maps on my Pharaoh's Garden model. I created the maps using NVidia's photoshop plug in. I filled the glyphs in with grey, exported just the glyphs on a png. Then I loaded the plugin, ran the filter over my grey layer then created a black layer fill and ran it through the filter. When importing them to Poser, make sure that Gamma is set to 1 (don't leave it at use default) plugged into Gradient Bump and then under Gradient Mode, use Tangent Space. I can't say for sure if they change with Render Engines, but my testers had no problems with SuperFly.

Also, try these two tutorials: http://www.evermotion.org:8080/exclusiv/Normal_maps/NORMAL_MAPS.pdf

http://blog.digitaltutors.com/bump-normal-and-displacement-maps/

@3dFineries

Can you try to post a screenshot of the normalmap?

Here is a small test i did with normal maps and bump maps in Poser and 3ds max for comparison. Which shows the problems im having at least when using normal maps in poser.

3ds max Left: Bump map, Right Normal map, Main light is placed low in the scene.

Poser Left bump map, Right Normal map also using main light set low in the scene.

3ds max with main light high

Poser with main light high

The scene used in poser is the same as in max as its exported from there. Lighting are different, but think thats it ok to illustrate the problem. And also the camera might be slightly different.

In Poser especially in the render with main light low, you can see some weird straight lines in the render, which doesn't appear in the 3ds max scene, which are examples of the artifacts i experience when using normal maps in Poser. The bump map works fine even though you still get some lines in it. And again you can see the artifacts in the one with the lighting high, but not as much. So maybe its a problem with the poser lighting when using low poly mesh. The spheres only have 32 sides.

The poser normal map uses gamma of 1 and Tangent space.

There ya go.

If your normals look wrong, like they're going in the wrong direction, just take the map into Photoshop and invert the green channel.

/edit @OP

Here's a screen of the Nvidia Normal Filter settings.

If your normals look wrong, like they're going in the wrong direction, just take the map into Photoshop and invert the green channel.

Thats not the problem it can easily be sorted as you say. The problem is the weird lines, as i said might be due to the low poly mesh and Poser not being able to handle that very well, i dont know.

Here's a screen of the Nvidia Normal Filter settings.

I made mine using photoshop, but thanks for sharing.

Maybe I should've specified I was responding to the OP.

Maybe I should've specified I was responding to the OP.

Ahh ok sorry :D

Anyway seems like it is mesh related and due to Poser lighting. Tried to increase the Render subD for the scene.

With 3 SubD

With 0 SubD

3D-Mobster posted at 7:56AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - #4251278

If your normals look wrong, like they're going in the wrong direction, just take the map into Photoshop and invert the green channel.

Thats not the problem it can easily be sorted as you say. The problem is the weird lines, as i said might be due to the low poly mesh and Poser not being able to handle that very well, i dont know.

Here's a screen of the Nvidia Normal Filter settings.

I made mine using photoshop, but thanks for sharing.

It's a plugin for Photoshop. https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-texture-tools-adobe-photoshop

3D-Mobster looks like the shaders smoothness isn't smooth

if the sphere is smooth before the normal then it's the normal. if the sphere has lines before the normal then it's the shaders smoothness.

page 196 of Poser Pro Reference Manual.pdf might be helpful.

Pixolygon, 3DFineries Thanks for the info

Y is up in Poser, so I'd use ZBrush's default settings for normal map creation (do not flip the green channel). You should be Ok. If you're using Substance or Quixel suite, export OpenGL normal maps, not Direct X

Thanks a lot Teyon .I am attempting to learn Substance Live ,It is a bloody killer arsenal of app's .How ever it is still debatable if I am worthy.

Just be aware that if you export 16 bit images from Substance or Quixel suite (default in both cases I believe), you're not going to get those files into Poser unless they're tif format or you change the depth to 8 bit (for PNG, JPG,etc).

3D-Mobster posted at 3:36AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251282

Maybe I should've specified I was responding to the OP.

Ahh ok sorry :D

Anyway seems like it is mesh related and due to Poser lighting. Tried to increase the Render subD for the scene.

I don't think it's the lighting, it looks like the Terminator Problem. Iray has it too. Read about it Here.

And yes, Subdivision is probably the best way to get rid of it.

**I don't think it's the lighting, it looks like the Terminator Problem. Iray has it too. Read about it Here.

And yes, Subdivision is probably the best way to get rid of it.**

That explains it, seems very similar to the effect i got in my images.

Apparently some render engines require highpolycount or SubD'ed etc etc meshes. Was wishing it was other wise.

Using Normals n SubD's together ,what a concept. Well Posers charm is they broken the rules year after year after year.

Poser's the bumble bee that continues to fly in defiance of science. When everyone knows it's magic that gives the bumble bee flight.

Well its not really Posers fault, if you read the article that Bantha linked, its about Daz3d Iray that apparently have the same problem. Vray must be using some other method i guess as it doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Ps. The bumblebee don't fly using magic, it just flap it wings faster than other insects do, so it follows the rules, just as everything else does

I wasn't blaming Poser or DAZ or anyone .I use any and all App's Poser,DAZ _ zBrush,Mudbox _ C4D,Blender.

What can I say ,I'm a sinner. ;)

There isn't a single standard for how tangent space normal maps are supposed to be interpreted. For games, where they are very popular, this isn't a problem, as assets and code go hand in hand. For other programs, it seems like everyone came up with their own recipe and that makes it hard to interchange normal maps reliably.

For what it's worth, normal maps in SuperFly use the "MikkT" tangent space, which is gaining in popularity and source code for generating those tangents is available to everyone.

stewer posted at 7:17PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252636

There isn't a single standard for how tangent space normal maps are supposed to be interpreted. For games, where they are very popular, this isn't a problem, as assets and code go hand in hand. For other programs, it seems like everyone came up with their own recipe and that makes it hard to interchange normal maps reliably.

For what it's worth, normal maps in SuperFly use the "MikkT" tangent space, which is gaining in popularity and source code for generating those tangents is available to everyone.

The only standard CGI has ever had is no matter what app's your using. There prerequisite page never reads .Insanity required ;)

Well at least I got a height map made. polycount 6

Did you get it figured out, RorrKonn? Height map looks good though.

That looks good RorrKonn.

Rorrkonn how does it look in Poser, can you do a comparison render, because the problem is not substance painter, but whether a low poly object in poser using a normal map will render correct. Those test i did i had to crank up the subD's to get good results, but that is kind of ruin the purpose i think.

I'm still running thru the you tube tutorials for Substance Live in my spear time.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Allegorithmic

I'm working my way thru the Substance Painter Tutorial – Scifi Crate Projects.My .jpg is the results of Scifi Crate Project 02: Painting height details.Hopefully buy the time I get to Scifi Crate Project 10. I'll have a clue as to what I'm doing in Substance Painter. I'm like'n Substance Painter a lot it makes me look good ;)

For now all I can do is learn Substance Live. After I learn Substance Live and have some textured meshes. Then I'll learn what Poser can and can't do.

A uneducated guess is octane will work with normals but supperfly would need displacements.

Well with your arsenal of tools (Zbrush, C4D, Mudbox, Houdini, Manga Studio, Substance, Poser Pro) I think you're pretty well covered in the tools department at this point. As far as what can Poser do? Perhaps, what can you do with Poser? It's just a tool on your pile. I think the real attraction of Poser is it's grass roots community and hunger for content. No matter what you make or are interested in doing with it, you're bound to find someone who appreciates or has a like mind for that kind of thing.

Yeah displacements in Firefly are most common, not sure about with Superfly. Probably be a year or so before people stop walking into walls with that. Hell, people still have a hard time with RT ibl/ao and GI in poser. Shrugs.

Plans ,Oh wait ,I'm suppose to have a Plan. Ah ,win the lottery n retire to the tropics ;)

I'm a Artist ,planning n all that just not my gig.

Well at least I can make something that resembles a texture mesh ,more or less. ;) Just don't ask how I done it ,cause I'm not sure. Still have miles to go. but who knows I might have a finished something at the end ,maybe ;)

...

They look pretty good to me.

3DFineries posted at 3:18AM Tue, 16 February 2016 - #4255230

They look pretty good to me.

Thanks a lot. I'm having a lot of fun playing with Substance Live ,even thou most the time I have no idea what I'm doing. Realized to day the Panorama map effects the mesh. I liked this one.

I'm hoping by April will have Poser Meshes.

None of this is painted ,my pen is looking a bit rusty ;) ,We got the masking ,more or less ,I still wonder of the page from time to time.

I am wondering about the tangent space standards too, for both Poser and DS.

I will try to make some sort of list here, based on information from Preferences in 3D Coat:

3Ds Max: Eric Lengyel's Space

Maya: Maya (Space)

Unity: Unity Space

Blender: MikkT Space

Unreal Engine: MikkT Space

Substance Designer: MikkT Space

ZBrush: MikkT Space

There seems to be some other settings in the program presets that may or not play in also, namely: Normals Calculation Method (5 different options), Normal Maps Export (can be 3DS Max/LW or Maya/Blender) and Triangulation Method (can be Simplest or Delaunay).

I also have Quixel and there are many export settings there.

So it would be really useful to know which normal map export settings to use for Poser and DS! I willl be back to fill in the list once I find out more,

Poser (FireFly) ?

Poser (SuperFly): MikkT

DS (3Delight): ?

DS (Iray): ?

Strange - a quick Google search on "tangent space basis" and Iray turns up nothing... You would think that NVidia at least would have some sort of online documentation. And we need this information for all 4 render engines, that may differ. Important for anyone wanting to make cross-platform content. We may need more than one set of normal maps.

I will do some tests when I have time, to figure out some reasonably safe options, and perhaps which settings to avoid altogether. :)

Sorry, if this was off topic with mentioning DS, but I think a lot of vendors at least wouldn't mind a list that covers correct normal settings for both programs/all the render engines. :D

Best to to test each app ,they all have there quirks.

If I remember right 3Delight ,Firefly both used unity maps.

I've not messed with SuperFly ,Iray ,Cycles.

I prefer real time render engines.