Would be interesting to know if Poser will go on a subscription in Future and where it would lead to. Has there been any official statements ? The search for a statement that opposes it is not found in these forums, so it could be assumed that this will be the future plans of Renderosity.

There's plenty opposed to it in this thread as far as I can tell, it really would be the kiss of death to Poser, and here's why:

• Those that have been tinkering with blender over the years will jump completely into the new improved blender.
• Those that don't get along with blender will jump into DAZ studio if they want a free alternative that isn't blender.
• Those that don't get along with blender will jump into iClone if they want a paid alternative that isn't blender.

Bondware need to work big-time on attracting users back to Poser, not driving them away. The "subscription" system for software would be fair ONLY if it were law that if a person decides to stop subscribing, the get to keep the licence perpetually for the version of software they had reached while under that subscription. Unfortunately, modern governments are there to serve industry, not the citizen, which is why there is no such law in place to protect the citizen from such monetary abuse.

Even the term used to describe what Adobe are doing, is blatant deception. When you "Subscribe" to a magazine for example, that magazine lands through your mailbox once a month (or whatever the frequency is for your magazine subscription). If you later decide to cancel your subscription, they don't send someone round to collect your old magazines just because you cancelled.

What Adobe and those with the same abusive ethics as them are doing, is "Software Rental" not "Subscription". It's unethical, deceptive, and should be outlawed. Every person that has paid a "Subscription" to Adobe, should be granted one, by law, meaning a perpetual licence for every product they "Subscribed" to. Subscriptions do not remove a purchasers right to access what they paid for while under that subscription, only "Software Rental" does that.

Those Adobe snakes should be hit with a big-ass lawsuit, one that effects the whole industry and puts the citizen first, then thankfully none of us would ever have to concern ourselves with such monetary abuse again.

Retrowave: BINGO!

I think the issue with letting people keep the software forever when they un-subscribe is that you can subscribe for just one month. So I subscribe to Photoshop and Lightroom for one month for $9.99, cancel my subscription, and get to use them forever? That doesn't seem right.

Even if it applies to yearly subscriptions only...I'm paying $120 a year for both Photoshop and Lightroom. That's a fraction of the cost you would have paid before they went subscription-only. Photoshop alone was $700.

randym77 posted at 7:40AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374607

...but is it true that Poser is aimed at hobbyists? Most of us here at Rosity are, but as someone has previously mentioned, we may not be not representative of the average Poser user.

It is definitely not true... and never really was. The vast majority of entities who have a working copy of Poser and a populated runtime are either prosumer or outright pros. Most CG houses keep a few copies of Poser around for little projects, one-offs, and things that pop up with unrealistic deadlines. For the longest time, proof of this was as close as the nearest self-checkout stand at the local grocery store (where Posette happily showed you how to use the self-checkout stand.)

I've seen pro houses using it here and there, and most will easily admit to it when asked. The small shop Intel kept around to show off their gfx chips even dragged me into their section once to show the diffs between Poser and DS, and to give input into various bits (no, I'm not special, just that the group I was in and their shop were in the same building at the time - Intel's now-defunct Cornell Oaks R&D site. I hung around the smoking shelter with a lot of 'em). They very often had reps from bigger CG houses stopping by, so I got to ask a lot of questions at the time. It's also where I learned that being a codemonkey would be a way less stressful career choice. :)

Anyrate, yeah... most owners of Poser don't hang in the forums here, and they're definitely not hobbyists.

randym77 posted at 7:50AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374664

I think the issue with letting people keep the software forever when they un-subscribe is that you can subscribe for just one month. So I subscribe to Photoshop and Lightroom for one month for $9.99, cancel my subscription, and get to use them forever? That doesn't seem right.

It wouldn't be, but could they not offer an amortization plan, where you can buy a permanent license/copy for 50% off after a 12 month sub, and for 75% off after two years, etc?

Subscriptions are quite hostile to the hobbyist/consumer, and they (Adobe) are fully aware of that. However, the hobbyist isn't Adobe's target market, and their target market (SME/Corps) don't care because they can have their AP department handle that. But the biggest reason is that they don't have to dork with upgrades and/or massive CapEx with each new version. This is the process whereupon you have to go to the beancounters and beg for a big chunk of cash to buy version $latest, have to justify it, have to get RFQ/RFP bids from resellers, have to wait for a PO, and generally blow a lot of time and headache just to upgrade once in awhile. Subs are way easier, and the BSA audits go just that much easier as a bonus if you ever get hit with one...

I agree that the current "software subscription" model should be called "software rental".

Still jumping the gun to wonder about this for Poser though. I've only seen the matter be not-dismissed. But no signs that it will become a thing for Poser in any near future. Assuming that a software will go rental just because it won't get rid of phone-home security is a biiiig jump.

Penguinisto posted at 12:18PM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374668

Subscriptions are quite hostile to the hobbyist/consumer, and they (Adobe) are fully aware of that. However, the hobbyist isn't Adobe's target market, and their target market (SME/Corps) don't care because they can have their AP department handle that. But the biggest reason is that they don't have to dork with upgrades and/or massive CapEx with each new version. This is the process whereupon you have to go to the beancounters and beg for a big chunk of cash to buy version $latest, have to justify it, have to get RFQ/RFP bids from resellers, have to wait for a PO, and generally blow a lot of time and headache just to upgrade once in awhile. Subs are way easier, and the BSA audits go just that much easier as a bonus if you ever get hit with one...

Spot on. I remember having to make do with Photoshop 6 when I was in college (2003-2006) when I had I think Photoshop CS2 at home - or it was CS, I remember it wasn't even the latest. But yeah that was graphics design college and we had all very old versions of everything in our study computers. Likely because the professors couldn't convince administration of the large expense to upgrade.

Penguinisto how do you know how many hobbyist users of poser there are? I'm not disputing your knowledge of the professional market, just the fact that as far I'm aware nobody other Bomdware, and perhaps not even them really knows the breakdown of the poser user base.

Bondware/Rendo seems to be looking to the synergy between content sales and poser sales. I can't imagine professionals spend their time and money stocking up their runtimes with content they might, but probably never will, use, that's the domain of the hobbyist. Whatever SM's target market was, I can't see Rendo targeting the professional market at the expense of the hobbyist market.

Well, they did say they had people on both sides of the subscription issue, so they're at least considering it.

It's a big jump to assume Poser will go subscription in the future. It's not a big jump to wonder about it.

randym77 posted at 12:24PM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374678

Well, they did say they had people on both sides of the subscription issue, so they're at least considering it.

It's a big jump to assume Poser will go subscription in the future. It's not a big jump to wonder about it.

True enough. But the solution to that would be simple: offer both, like Marvelous Designer does.

Penguinisto posted at 10:22AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374668

randym77 posted at 7:50AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374664

I think the issue with letting people keep the software forever when they un-subscribe is that you can subscribe for just one month. So I subscribe to Photoshop and Lightroom for one month for $9.99, cancel my subscription, and get to use them forever? That doesn't seem right.

It wouldn't be, but could they not offer an amortization plan, where you can buy a permanent license/copy for 50% off after a 12 month sub, and for 75% off after two years, etc?

Subscriptions are quite hostile to the hobbyist/consumer, and they (Adobe) are fully aware of that. However, the hobbyist isn't Adobe's target market, and their target market (SME/Corps) don't care because they can have their AP department handle that. But the biggest reason is that they don't have to dork with upgrades and/or massive CapEx with each new version. This is the process whereupon you have to go to the beancounters and beg for a big chunk of cash to buy version $latest, have to justify it, have to get RFQ/RFP bids from resellers, have to wait for a PO, and generally blow a lot of time and headache just to upgrade once in awhile. Subs are way easier, and the BSA audits go just that much easier as a bonus if you ever get hit with one...

That would be reasonable, but honestly, I think the subscription plan is actually very friendly to hobbyists, at least as Adobe has implemented it.

Photoshop was wicked expensive for a hobbyist. Even if you didn't upgrade often, it was pricey. I personally know several hobbyists who gave up their pirated software when Photoshop went subscription. They couldn't afford $700 for a legal copy, but they can afford $10/month.

Basically, you can subscribe for almost six years, for what Photoshop used to cost. (And you get Lightroom, too.) For a lot of people, it's worth it.

I think pricing would have to be similar - a tiny fraction of what Poser costs now - for the subscription model to be attractive to hobbyists.

Nails60 posted at 10:34AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374677

Bondware/Rendo seems to be looking to the synergy between content sales and poser sales. I can't imagine professionals spend their time and money stocking up their runtimes with content they might, but probably never will, use, that's the domain of the hobbyist. Whatever SM's target market was, I can't see Rendo targeting the professional market at the expense of the hobbyist market.

Possibly, but I wonder if that might be a mistake. Just judging from where I see Poser used - that checkout thing, forensic animations, industrial training videos - a lot of users are not the Rosity pinup crowd. I think there's a reason why Poser figures have traditionally come with everyday clothing, not the skimpwear that's popular here.

If they move more toward the hobbyist market, they move more into direct competition with DAZ. We hobbyists may like that, but I'm not sure that makes financial sense.

To be fair, I never started this thread over subscription suspicions, I started it over internet requirement suspicions. The subscription discussion is most welcome though, and actually, I very much doubt Poser would go "Subscription", and this is for one simple reason, that reason being DAZ.

DAZ and their DAZ Studio software, are direct competitors of Bondware and their Poser software. This is because both softwares are geared towards the same market, and DAZ Studio is completely free. If anything, far from the subscription route, Bondware might even have purchased Poser with a view to making Poser free too. Maybe they have seen that it is DAZ Studio being free that is attracting their content-buying customers to DAZ by the shipload.

And how could Bondware put an end to their content-buying customers moving over to DAZ?

• Buy Poser and offer it for free, naturally

No one should start getting excited over that comment, I could be completely wrong, but it would not surprise me if it happened, because remember, DAZ Studio was once quite an expensive product to buy (especially the pro version). So who knows, with good default base meshes designed to withstand permanent residence in the Poser Runtime, and a bunch of much needed updates to the Poser software, we just might see hoards of new people signing-up to the Poser forum on the release of Poser 12, these could be content-buying people who would not otherwise have been here if Poser had not gone free!

So to hazard a guess between:

• Poser going for subscription, driving content-purchasing customers away from Poser.
• Poser going for free, attracting content-buying customers to Poser by the shipload.

Personally, my cash would be on the latter of those, cause I doubt Bondware are commercially suicidal

Nails60 posted at 10:49AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374677

Penguinisto how do you know how many hobbyist users of poser there are? I'm not disputing your knowledge of the professional market, just the fact that as far I'm aware nobody other Bomdware, and perhaps not even them really knows the breakdown of the poser user base.

Smith Micro would know precisely, but consider that hobbyists alone wouldn't have kept Poser alive all these years, mostly because piracy of the Poser software suite was (and likely still is) so easy to accomplish for the hobbyist crowd. (Pros won't pirate anything if they're smart, because 1) they can afford the 200 bucks per seat (or bulk rates), and 2) the BSA would rape their financials the moment they tried and a disgruntled employee blew the whistle.) The other really big reason is that hobbyists, especially newbies, are going to go with something free first, then maybe get around to Poser (no, I won't mention the competition directly, but you know what I mean.)

All of this means someone had to keep CuriousLabs/EGISys/SM's bills paid... hence pro customers.

Now is this a static ratio that always was and always will be? Hells, no - which is likely why Bondware is weighing the issue and not just going for it.

I can't imagine professionals spend their time and money stocking up their runtimes with content they might, but probably never will, use, that's the domain of the hobbyist.

Pretty sure the pros aren't loading up their runtimes with lingerie and impractical armor either... in most cases, pros are going to use the stock stuff for cheapie illustration/animations, import homebrew stuff from FBX or similar and rig it to taste, or use cheap-enough bridging software to drag in their own content.

I have to ask, why would pro's use Poser over DAZ which is free and comes with 2 tons of content? I can't see it. I have to disagree with Pro's keeping Poser afloat, I really do think it's the hobbyists/home user (which is why the naked LaFemme as the opening screen seems to be a rather bad move-I'm sure mom will love it) g

I have seen Poser animations on progs like Cold Case Files and similar and there are more Poser than DAZ (I think I only spotted Genesis once).

The reasons are simple and kind of numerous... Poser they already have, they've already bought the stuff for it (Whatever they did buy), it's the UI they already know so there's no learning a new UI for something they consider less of a priority than the $$$$$$$$$$$-priced stuff they do use as their mainline tools...

movida posted at 3:41AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374742

I have to ask, why would pro's use Poser over DAZ which is free and comes with 2 tons of content? I can't see it. I have to disagree with Pro's keeping Poser afloat, I really do think it's the hobbyists/home user (which is why the naked LaFemme as the opening screen seems to be a rather bad move-I'm sure mom will love it) g

I have seen Poser animations on progs like Cold Case Files and similar and there are more Poser than DAZ (I think I only spotted Genesis once).

That's a rather specious argument, movida, and Penguinisto is right. There are a number of reasons, one of them being longevity. Poser's been around for over twenty years, so many people probably got their first foray into computer graphics with Poser. You might ask yourself why the majority of computer graphics operations use their own tools tomake animations when Studio is free? So's Blender, but let's see, Pixar, Maya, 3DS Max, Sculptris, Houdini, Lightwave. They're all still around. Blender hasn't put them out of business. Not even close. And let's not forget that many professionals actually use Turbo Squid models, which are far more pricey than those we use here at DAZ or Renderosity. Or, they make and rig their own.

EClark1894 posted at 3:18AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374760

So's Blender, but let's see, Pixar, Maya, 3DS Max, Sculptris, Houdini, Lightwave. They're all still around. Blender hasn't put them out of business. Not even close.

True, Blender will never put those big companies completely out of business, but it will reduce them to second-rate citizens of the CG world. Blender will also become industry standard. If you follow those blender conferences you will see the movement towards blender quite clearly. Things have come a seriously long way in recent years, and the goodies that arrived in blender 2.8 will only go to increase the trend.

Today, blender more than any other CG program on the planet, can be considered one of the big names, because more people have blender installed than anything Autodesk ever put out there. And not just because it's free, it's because it's every bit as powerful as those other "big names". Each package has it's pluses and minuses, but the nature of blender being Open Source means, by default, that blender is the only big name out there that will truly develop for the benefit of it's users, not company shareholders.

My personal prediction is that Maya, Max etc will eventually all have to face the reality of the Open Source competition they have in the mighty blender, and will have to decide between a Unity3D-type business model, a blender-type business model, or simply go out of business (and I doubt they'd want that).

Or ! they just pull together, buy Blender adding a call home kill switch subscription on it ( Shit happens ) the perfect deal !

! Better go and download Blender as long as it is Free ! Just in case.

EClark1894 posted at 6:03AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374760

movida posted at 3:41AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374742

I have to ask, why would pro's use Poser over DAZ which is free and comes with 2 tons of content? I can't see it. I have to disagree with Pro's keeping Poser afloat, I really do think it's the hobbyists/home user (which is why the naked LaFemme as the opening screen seems to be a rather bad move-I'm sure mom will love it) g

I have seen Poser animations on progs like Cold Case Files and similar and there are more Poser than DAZ (I think I only spotted Genesis once).

That's a rather specious argument, movida, and Penguinisto is right. There are a number of reasons, one of them being longevity. Poser's been around for over twenty years, so many people probably got their first foray into computer graphics with Poser. You might ask yourself why the majority of computer graphics operations use their own tools tomake animations when Studio is free? So's Blender, but let's see, Pixar, Maya, 3DS Max, Sculptris, Houdini, Lightwave. They're all still around. Blender hasn't put them out of business. Not even close. And let's not forget that many professionals actually use Turbo Squid models, which are far more pricey than those we use here at DAZ or Renderosity. Or, they make and rig their own.

So if the majority of computer graphics operations use their own tools instead of Studio, then it is also instead of Poser. Using Blender (a baby in a given field) as an example is not valid (or, rather specious) - you might ask yourself why? I'm talking about 2 competing, mainstream programs, and their relation to a perceived market (i.e., home hobbyist/professional) not 1, outside the mainstream program, making inroads into the behemoth mainstream, regardless of the status of the end user.

So lets see.... there is a difference. Blender has a bigger hill to climb but has an astute development/marketing team and they're doing it. I still have a hard time with the idea that Poser is being floated by the professionals.

Thankfully, Azath, that can never happen due to Blender being Open Source (technically everyone owns it already).

Can't happen to ArmorPaint, GIMP, or InkScape either, for exactly the same reason

That's the power of the Open Source: It cannot be beaten as a business model because at the end of the day, the "Free and Open" business model is always going to win over the "Expensive and Closed" alternative. A perfect example of how dramatically things have shifted over the years would be to compare Lightwave to Blender. There was a time when Lightwave was the be all and end all in 3D graphics, it was even used to churn-out Star-Trek back in the day.

Forward to today and who would have thought that more people would know about and be using Blender, than Lightwave. I love Lightwave, Cinema 4D, and ZBrush. Fact is though, I cashed-in my licences for all of those programs due to Blender allowing me to do all of that in one program, and that was a long time ago now, I simply did not need them any more.

So yeah, don't worry about Adobe or Autodesk sucking-up Blender, it can never happen (thankfully).

After using allot of expensive 3D apps I also jumped to Blender a while back, it sure replaces all of them with ease. These now are just in case Programs that are used for things Blender can not do, Poser Ds can be seen as entry level for the novice and provides a simplified approach for the ones who wish to be introduced into 3D design. The moment you wish to have your own design in Poser DS you will be forced to use modeler programs, no way around it . In most cases you will not have the need to use Poser DS any further unless you provide creations for these. I Have to agree that poser DS is just a hobbyists Programm, may not of been in the early 2000 as there was hope that it might of grown beyond just being a Posing Programm. Fact is now that it is and will always be a posing program for those who supply it with 3D models and for the novice to be Introduced into 3D. Compared to allot of 3D Games Poser/DS does not even reach that level of interaction with 3D models and quality.

Are Forced Subscriptions Driving 3D Users To Open Source Tools?

More and more professional 3D software are now only available on a monthly or yearly subscription basis — you cannot buy any kind of perpetual license for these industry standard 3D tools anymore, cannot offline install or activate the tools, and the tools also phone home every few days over the internet to see whether you have "paid your rent". Stop paying your rent, and the software shuts down, leaving you unable to even look at any 3D project files you may have created with software.

This has caused so much frustration, concern and anxiety among 3D content creators that, increasingly, everybody is trying to replace their commercial 3D software with Open Source 3D tools! Go on any major 3D software forum on the Internet and it is filled with enraged 3D users revolting against forced software subscriptions and threatening to switch to FOSS Blender as soon as possible.

Retrowave posted at 11:55AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374762

EClark1894 posted at 3:18AM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374760

So's Blender, but let's see, Pixar, Maya, 3DS Max, Sculptris, Houdini, Lightwave. They're all still around. Blender hasn't put them out of business. Not even close.

True, Blender will never put those big companies completely out of business, but it will reduce them to second-rate citizens of the CG world. Blender will also become industry standard. If you follow those blender conferences you will see the movement towards blender quite clearly. Things have come a seriously long way in recent years, and the goodies that arrived in blender 2.8 will only go to increase the trend.

The problem with industry standards is that it has to be standard in the industry. A lot of people may know how to use Blender, but odds are their jobs use something else. Pixar, for example, made it's own to use, and they train their people to use it.

Picture this: Bondware releases first Poser SDK, removes phone home, fixes ZBrush-Poser bridge, restarts Fusion development, forever gives up subscription model. Bondware makes a major announcement (I mean major, to the point of being spam g) that users will drive Poser development - you want plug-ins, write them; you want content, make it; you want improvements, get on with it; you need tutorials, write them; you want figures, model them. Do you really think that Bondware wouldn't make some serious profit from vendors and vendor sales? Really? It won't happen overnight, but it would happen. Stop locking users out of the guts of the program, they're the ones who got it to where it is now. DAZ has more tutorials and 3rd party add ons than anybody can keep up with, and they're making money. You make Poser the hub, the gateway to Lightwave/Max/Modo/Blender/C4D instead of locking it out ...whatever. And actually You (Bondware) are not even doing it you're just make it possible and you (Bondware) will reap the financial rewards and solidify Poser. Off soapbox

Penguinisto posted at 1:42PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374667

randym77 posted at 7:40AM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374607

...but is it true that Poser is aimed at hobbyists? Most of us here at Rosity are, but as someone has previously mentioned, we may not be not representative of the average Poser user.

It is definitely not true... and never really was. The vast majority of entities who have a working copy of Poser and a populated runtime are either prosumer or outright pros. Most CG houses keep a few copies of Poser around for little projects, one-offs, and things that pop up with unrealistic deadlines. For the longest time, proof of this was as close as the nearest self-checkout stand at the local grocery store (where Posette happily showed you how to use the self-checkout stand.)

I've seen pro houses using it here and there, and most will easily admit to it when asked. The small shop Intel kept around to show off their gfx chips even dragged me into their section once to show the diffs between Poser and DS, and to give input into various bits (no, I'm not special, just that the group I was in and their shop were in the same building at the time - Intel's now-defunct Cornell Oaks R&D site. I hung around the smoking shelter with a lot of 'em). They very often had reps from bigger CG houses stopping by, so I got to ask a lot of questions at the time. It's also where I learned that being a codemonkey would be a way less stressful career choice. :)

Anyrate, yeah... most owners of Poser don't hang in the forums here, and they're definitely not hobbyists.

This might have been true at one point in time, but I don't think that's the case today. 15 years ago? Maybe. Today, not so much. Let's face it...SM nearly killed this software (or left it to die, whichever way you want to interpret it).

Laurie

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 1:44PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374681

randym77 posted at 12:24PM Fri, 27 December 2019 - #4374678

Well, they did say they had people on both sides of the subscription issue, so they're at least considering it.

It's a big jump to assume Poser will go subscription in the future. It's not a big jump to wonder about it.

True enough. But the solution to that would be simple: offer both, like Marvelous Designer does.

If they do go the sub route, I hope this is exactly what they do. Offer perpetual to those who don't want a sub ;).

Laurie

DAZ hasn't really positioned DS to go after the corporate Poser customers. At first, DS didn't even have a manual. Not many businesses are going to buy into software with no manual.

There's a manual now, but they still don't seem to be marketing DS for the corporate customer. You go to their web site, and the splash screen is fantasy or SF, or pinup type stuff. I remember for awhile, their splash screen was Vicky in a flesh-colored bikini. She looked nude, and I didn't even want to visit their web site at work for fear that people would think I was looking at pr0n.

Poser always had a more corporate look (with the possible exception of when EF was in charge). People in contemporary clothing, toon characters in business suits, human figure schematics without a lot of detail. Remember how surprised people were when Rosity used a glamor/pinup pic of LF for the Poser "box"? Nobody would have been surprised if DAZ used an image like that to represent DS.

EClark1894 posted at 12:07PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374804

The problem with industry standards is that it has to be standard in the industry. A lot of people may know how to use Blender, but odds are their jobs use something else. Pixar, for example, made it's own to use, and they train their people to use it.

But blender is rapidly becoming standard in the industry. How can it not when so many people use it now, and the cost to a new and expanding studio basing their business around it, is zero? What is extremely important to remember is that unlike before, you no longer need to start with an industry standard product in order to start a successful CG studio. The days of Max and Maya being a requirement were shot in the head quite a few years back now.

There is a rapidly increasing number of CG production houses who are completely built around blender, so for anyone wanting a job in one of those blender-based studios, the skill requirement is blender, not Max or Maya. It's kinda like Divinos said, the forums of those old dinosaurs Max and Maya, are now filled with enraged users threatening to jump ship to blender.

The best thing those enraged people can do, is go ahead with what they've been threatening to do ASAP. The sooner the better, because the requirement for being skilled at Blender is future-proof, it has a guaranteed future due the business model Blender is built around, a model that cannot change.

So not only will Blender become industry standard, it will have paved its own way in becoming so, because it has literally taken-away Autodesk's ability to throw it's weight around by having people believe that you need to pay their "industry standard" prices in order to succeed with an "industry standard" product.

• Hey, can I have a job?
• Sure, you skilled in Blender?
• No, but I have skills in Max and Maya!
• Then go find a studio that still uses that stuff, we're a Blender-based studio.
• Damn, it's the same story wherever I go these days.
• You have my sympathy, but if you don't mind, we have some blending to be getting on with, and we're pretty damn busy.
• Damn, and to think I used to pay Autodesk all that money for something I'll never own, has no future, and all along I could have kept the cash I paid to Autodesk, and be completely skilled in blender by now!

The good news is that our Autodesk-subscribing friend learnt his lesson eventually, threw himself into Blender, became much better off financially, and now has a secure future running his very own Blender-based studio. He now donates to the Blender Foundation for making it all possible, therefore making Blender, his tool of choice, become even more powerful!

Multiple quotes from multiple sources... sorry about the lack of attributions. With that in mind:

Or ! they just pull together, buy Blender adding a call home kill switch subscription on it ( Shit happens ) the perfect deal !

Blender is open-source... if anyone tried to do that with Blender, someone else would simply fork the codebase, and Blender, Deviation Edition would carry on from there, open and free. For a parallel example, OpenOffice had this happen to it (by the now-defunct Sun Microsystems), but Libre Office rose from that codebase and is still open/free today (meanwhile OpenOffice is IIRC dead or close enough to dead...)

And let's not forget that many professionals actually use Turbo Squid models, which are far more pricey than those we use here at DAZ or Renderosity. Or, they make and rig their own.

To be fair, most of that is done because of IP (Intellectual Property) butt-covering - Turbo Squid backs up any liability issues if memory serves. Also, you get everything associated with your item (maps, mesh and often in multiple formats, etc). Making one's own content ensures that nobody will come along and harass you with lawyers (at least not for very long.)

Rendo does not (and for good reason will not) back up the wares they consign against IP violations, and legally only acts as a broker (or "carrier" of sorts).

Go on any major 3D software forum on the Internet and it is filled with enraged 3D users revolting against forced software subscriptions and threatening to switch to FOSS Blender as soon as possible.

Can you blame them? Threaten my livelihood and I'll revolt too, switching to another, my own homebrew, or an open-source toolset... and f@$k you while your sales drop to the point of insolvency... CG toolkits are a dime-a-dozen these days, and there are at least a dozen ways (and two dozen or more tools) to cobble-up a workable pipeline to get from rough sketch to finished still or animation.

Adobe was able to get away with it because they did it back when they were 'it' in the industry (seriously, Corel PSP was/is not considered competition in the pro illustration world, then or now), they built up a patent portfolio 10 miles deep, and they're ruthless about any competition that dares bare its head (either by M&A or by lawyer). But even they are going to have to face the music as their main software patents begin to expire in the next 5-10 years...

Put this way - only a big boy like Apple is able to make Adobe sit up and take notice (see also the reason why Flash is dead.)

Bondware makes a major announcement (I mean major, to the point of being spam g) that users will drive Poser development - you want plug-ins, write them; you want content, make it; you want improvements, get on with it; you need tutorials, write them; you want figures, model them.

You're not going to out-Studio Studio. Sorry, but that ship sailed back in 2005, and DS is parsecs ahead in that biz model. I do agree that a comprehensive SDK would be a solid idea (and expose as much as you can with it), and allowing actual (modern!) Python and/or a C/C++ gateway for plugins would be a massive benefit, but beyond that, emulating the competition this far after they did it is a recipe for disaster.

This might have been true at one point in time, but I don't think that's the case today. 15 years ago? Maybe. Today, not so much. Let's face it...SM nearly killed this software (or left it to die, whichever way you want to interpret it).

Yes and No. Poser isn't going to be a shop's mainline tool, so as long as you can load and manipulate P4/PP-level tech in it, it'll do what it's supposed to. I doubt you'd find a pro shop who would even think of clicking into the Hair Room, or dig into the intricacies of rigging materials just so... in their eyes, it was made for the slam-bang one-and-done projects, and that's what it gets used for, aspirations be damned. Anything more complex and you go crack open the Real Tools(tm) to get 'er done...

DAZ hasn't really positioned DS to go after the corporate Poser customers. At first, DS didn't even have a manual. Not many businesses are going to buy into software with no manual.

Points of Order:

At first (Version 1.0 release), DS did have a manual - I know because I wrote the thing; all 300+ pages of it, in PDF format. It quickly became obsolete though, and DAZ decided to try a wiki-based thing instead, in an attempt to let the content evolve with the application.

DAZ has always tried, and is currently still trying, to entice corporate customers into using it as part of a dev pipeline. This is why they pour time and effort into bridging to/from multiple toolsets, going all in with FBX import/export, etc... Now its bread-and-butter does come from the hobbyist (those slutware kits aren't buying themselves), but make no mistake - they want some of that sweet corporate lucre. No sane company would turn it down...

Autodesk stock was $20 10 years ago. Today it sits at $185. Yep, looks like everyone's bailing for blender. Poor Autodesk.

I don't believe that Autodesk (or any of them) will be in danger of extinction right now, or anytime soon. However, pointing to any stock ticker, in a massive hot-running Bull market though? C'mon, don't do that.

Personally, I don't see world+dog heading for Blender, but it does have growth. Shops can dictate apps to an extent, but over time the talent pool has an equal amount of influence (...what, you can't hire and keep 50 sufficiently talented employees in your shop who are all fully proficient in Modo anymore? Well that sucks...)

Truth be told though, most pros are smart (and flexible) enough to be proficient in more than one tool (much like the same reason I'm perfectly comfortable in C/C++, Java, Python, Ruby (and Rails)...) You see, just like code, the base concepts are the same, the workflows are similar, it's largely the syntax, plugin-goodies and rules that differ nowadays.

Doesn't matter, Shane, their stock is the result of their expansion since then, which is understandable considering the amount of products they sucked up, forcing users into a subscription in order to keep using what they were already used to using.

Autodesk have their hands in various industries, so while they have some time to go yet before their design market domination is brought to an end, they do not fare so well where Blender is the competing product. It's not surprising their users are aggravated, they constantly pay-out a subscription to access whatever Autodesk announce, and they do so knowing that Blender users will get everything the the Blender Foundation announces, free of charge.

Blender's business model has been sucking subscribers away from Autodesk for some time now, believe it, and as Blender gets more and more powerful, more and more will drop their Autodesk subscription and jump ship to Blender. I think we're at a point now where pretty much all Max and Maya users will have Blender installed anyway, will be getting themselves accustomed to it, and will jump ship completely only when they're comfortable with it enough do whatever they would normally do in Max and Maya.

Blender will become the industry standard, it's not even a matter of if anymore, it's just a matter of when.

The 3D/CGprofessionals that actually matter, are not using Poser/Daz studio or Iclone.

For so many..many reasons

The video Game industry is more lucritive than Both hollywood and the music industry combined.

The gaming & animated film/VFX industries have entrenched linear pipelines that do not involve assets that have not been built for those linear pipelines ...end of story.

Daz has had two major "genesis to Maya "plugins and is working on a third one based on DSON which will be as ignored by the Autodesk user community as the previous ones were. ..ENTRENCHED HABITS

Game companies always build custom assets for each title.

We are at the end of 2019.

NO one today is impressed by 3D models of young the pretty white women you see in every Daz promotional email particulary when they devolve to ordinary weighted bone rigs when taken out of their native Daz studio program

Poser survived the Smith micro years because it was not part of thier primary business and was being subsidized

The notion that "CG professionals" kept poser alive does not seem credible to me.

There is not ONE single, solitary feature in Poser 11.x that a professional 3D/CG game or film company would need or use..not one. Not the vestigial animation tools or ,the crippled fork of cycles, nor the transgendered "male" version of lefemme.

The same is true for Daz studio with its slow brtue force arch vis pathtracer, or its content managment system that is not scalable or portable for team environments

Most professionals have an Adobe subscription and free access to the Adobe Fuse character creator software as well as the entire MIXAMO library of canned motions so no need for poser /Daz or the expensive Iclone pipeline "in a pinch"

Iclone does have great realtime character animation tools as they leased the Autodesk Human Ik system in back 2012,

sadly Iclone lacks scalability for large complex /asset management and is better suited for export of biped only motion to a rig in a real 3DCC program for final renders.

I love blender 2.81 and plan to migrate my custom genesis clothing& morph development over to blender. in 2020

However any pro studios who adapt blender( like ubisoft did) will still need to have their own python gurus/pipeline TD's in houseas there is no official 24 hour tech support to help you through any inevitable pipeline problems as one receives with an autodesk subscription.

I seen this argument alot, and this was the only thing said which could be why at the moment Blender was/is not heavily used in Studios:

large corporations whose bottom line depends on getting stuff done quickly,they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone if their software isn't behaving as they would expect, or if they run into problems. With open source software, there is nobody to call, and nobody invested in making sure you succeed, so using opensource software is seen as more of a risk

I also over heard someone saying that we could just /train/or just staff devs who's sole purpose is to address and fix those issues if any with blender(which to me would make sense) But then the old were just going to go with software that offers traditional support. So its not that simple as it being free and saving money (they have money..lots of it)

Being that its free..could they do that (The Blender Foundation) provide 24hrs a day 7 days a week on site support if needed ? ( I would imagine they are the only ones any studio would want that type of support from) They would have to charge and wouldn't that now be against the license for Blender or does it even matter since they wouldn't be charging for the program but for the support only ?

Oh lol same thoughts wolf...lol

Penguinisto posted at 7:12PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374831

Multiple quotes from multiple sources... sorry about the lack of attributions. With that in mind:

Bondware makes a major announcement (I mean major, to the point of being spam g) that users will drive Poser development - you want plug-ins, write them; you want content, make it; you want improvements, get on with it; you need tutorials, write them; you want figures, model them.

You're not going to out-Studio Studio. Sorry, but that ship sailed back in 2005, and DS is parsecs ahead in that biz model. I do agree that a comprehensive SDK would be a solid idea (and expose as much as you can with it), and allowing actual (modern!) Python and/or a C/C++ gateway for plugins would be a massive benefit, but beyond that, emulating the competition this far after they did it is a recipe for disaster.

Who's trying to out-studio studio? It'd generate income for Bondware is all and I'll bet a lot of other place vendors start moving here. A new SDK will perk interest and creativity and a lot of those vendors are jumping ship anyway, I guess working in the garment district isn't pleasant :)

Over and out, back to Ancient Aliens

wolf359 posted at 7:12PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374851

I love blender 2.81 and plan to migrate my custom genesis clothing& morph development over to blender. in 2020

However any pro studios who adapt blender( like ubisoft did) will still need to have their own python gurus/pipeline TD's in houseas there is no official 24 hour tech support to help you through any inevitable pipeline problems as one receives with an autodesk subscription.

Out of curiosity, Wolf, are you aware of that new plugin for Blender called "DazToBlender8"? Not sure I could post a link to it on here due to it being related to getting DAZ Genesis 8 figures into Blender, but if you search for it on YouTube, you'll see a thumbnail of a Japanese guy in a hat. Just click on his channel and you'll find the videos he made about it. Haven't picked-up a copy yet, so I have no idea whether it also transfers HD morphs, but if the comments on his videos are anything to go by, people are very pleased with it, seems to work flawlessly, so who knows, perhaps it does!

Regards large production houses needing in-house Python gurus for Blender, sure, but the same is true when they work with Max and Maya. There's a video somewhere on Blender's YouTube channel, might even have been Ton Roosendaal himself, talking about offering official support for Blender, and how it would form a viable business for Blender experts to offer as a service.

So there's more than one route that could take. I think the most important thing of all though (in that respect), is that Blender (being Open Source), can be completely customised to however a user or CGI studio wants it anyway, as long as they have the cash to pay a programmer to do it for them, and like you said, those CGI Studios have plenty of cash!

CHK2033 posted at 6:30PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374852

I seen this argument alot, and this was the only thing said which could be why at the moment Blender was/is not heavily used in Studios:

large corporations whose bottom line depends on getting stuff done quickly,they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone if their software isn't behaving as they would expect, or if they run into problems. With open source software, there is nobody to call, and nobody invested in making sure you succeed, so using opensource software is seen as more of a risk

Microsoft said the same thing about Linux... until RedHat showed up, and provided exactly that. For a subscription fee (which is only a fraction of what MSFT charges, even at EA bulk rates), you have been able to get professional 24/7/366 short SLA support for their RHEL server product, no sweat, and you have been able to do that since 2001 or so. Oh, and they provided excellent patching, even backporting patches to old versions as needed.

I can't see why some enterprising soul couldn't do the same for Blender if that support becomes a large enough demand.

Retrowave posted at 9:34PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374860

wolf359 posted at 7:12PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374851

So there's more than one route that could take. I think the most important thing of all though (in that respect), is that Blender (being Open Source), can be completely customised to however a user or CGI studio wants it anyway, as long as they have the cash to pay a programmer to do it for them, and like you said, those CGI Studios have plenty of cash!

Ironically, if they customize it, then it can no longer be called Open source, can it? :)

Penguinisto posted at 8:53PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374866

CHK2033 posted at 6:30PM Sat, 28 December 2019 - #4374852

I seen this argument alot, and this was the only thing said which could be why at the moment Blender was/is not heavily used in Studios:

large corporations whose bottom line depends on getting stuff done quickly,they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone if their software isn't behaving as they would expect, or if they run into problems. With open source software, there is nobody to call, and nobody invested in making sure you succeed, so using opensource software is seen as more of a risk

Microsoft said the same thing about Linux... until RedHat showed up, and provided exactly that. For a subscription fee (which is only a fraction of what MSFT charges, even at EA bulk rates), you have been able to get professional 24/7/366 short SLA support for their RHEL server product, no sweat, and you have been able to do that since 2001 or so. Oh, and they provided excellent patching, even backporting patches to old versions as needed.

I can't see why some enterprising soul couldn't do the same for Blender if that support becomes a large enough demand.

Sure they can...but the reality is they dont, So they (Studios)would have to hire devs just for that which personally I think they should do (You know...that part you choose to leave out when quoting me )

EClark1894 posted at 5:17AM Sun, 29 December 2019 - #4374867

Ironically, if they customize it, then it can no longer be called Open source, can it? :)

Sure it can, Open Source doesn't stop a person or commercial entity from customising it purely for their own personal or in-house use. But what it does do is prevent that customised version from being sold or distributed publicly, unless the source code is also made available along with it. This prevents companies from infecting Blender's code base with proprietary code, because the Open Source licence dictates the rules, and the rules are you have no licence to use or modify Blender unless the result conforms to the Open Source licence.

Gotta love that licence, Clarkie, much as the likes of Adobe and Autodesk hate it

@Retrowave, yes I have seen all of the various plugins claiming to import genesis into other programs and IMHO, they are all just variations of the same false promise.

Genesis ,outside of the Daz studio environment ,devolves to just another bone rigged figure that will require any truly advanced functionality to be rebuilt using the other programs native character tools.

This means no Daz HD morphs..period

nor any audio based lipsynch,switching of conformers etc ( Unless you use Reallusions Iclone& 3Dxchange or CC3) .

I have decided that my Character animation pipeline will no longer include any third party plugins that are a single point of failure that could bring my work to a halt, via an update that breaks the plugin or the lone plugin developer ceases supporting it for whatever reason.

Remember Smith micro's "Poser fusion" for Max ,Lightwave & C4D?or Riess studio's poser to C4D plugin or the powerful "interposer pro" plugin for C4D??.

All dead and buried, unless you choose to stay with an older versions of poser and those other apps that used the plugins.

This is one of the many reason why I am leaving C4D for Lightwave3D

.Obj/MDD import is built into Lightwave3D and I can run my free DS 4.12 with its .obj/MDD exporter indefinitely.

And before anyone asks,...Yes Blender 2.81 has .obj/MDD import.

However ,unlike Lightwave, which externally references the MDD figure animation data,

Blender loads ALL of the (often multi Gigabyte ) MDD data into the .blend file which chokes blender to a crawl even crashes it sometimes.

@Wolf - But why would you want anything other than the model, rig, and morphs transferring anyway? I don't know if you watched each of his videos through, but he demonstrates figure, rig, morphs, and even facial rig stuff coming across perfectly. It works so well he demonstrates a girl breathing using the rig alone, so that's without even involving the morphs that get carried over.

It's unfortunate to hear you say that HD morphs are not transferred, but I don't see why he would not be able to add that in an update, cause surely, all the HD morphs would demand is for the plugin to make use of Blender's subdivision when importing the figure, and load the HD morphs into a higher subdivision level. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling he will add that ability in an update if he can.

Regards the lip-synch, I don't understand why you would even want to bother with transferring that data anyway, cause surely you would be better off doing that directly in Blender once you have the figure in there? What I mean is, take DAZ's Mimic for example, why on earth would you bother messing around with that old stuff and wanting to transfer it ...

When you can do THIS directly in Blender, to anything with a facial bone rig?

So when you consider the sophistication of the rig you get using that new importer, then simply record your own face using any camera you wish, you are left with an incredibly life-like, super-articulated figure that has 100% mo-capped facial lip-synch attached to it, done directly in Blender. The video at the link shows a perfectly fluid, mo-capped way to do it, you don't even need a special camera for it to work.

If the guy demonstrating the breathing on that girl's rig had also captured facial motion using the technique shown at the link in this post, the result would have been even more lifelike, cause you have a perfectly articulated rig and real facial mo-cap combined.

That said, I do normally share your frustration with importers, and up until now I have hated every one of them. But the good thing is that importer actually works properly, and you only ever have to touch DAZ once, to export the figure. Once exported, you have a quality figure complete with rigs and morphs, and even a completely free way to drive it using your own facial mo-cap.

Total Outlay $15 - Blender is free, as is the technique used to drive the face rig, so that's a seriously cool pipeline, Wolf

Bloody hell, have you seen the view-count on that Blender Facial Mo-Cap video? It's reached over half a million in just five months, so it sure looks like everyone's jumping Autodesk to Blender.

Yup, poor Autodesk, right Shane?

The 3D/CGprofessionals that actually matter, are not using Poser/Daz studio or Iclone.

Actually one area of the CG industry makes heavy use of DS, namely 'adventure games.' Well they call them adventure games but it's mostly a basic mystery or adventure plot with some casual puzzle solving and things like finding hidden objects and so on. There's lots of static backgrounds with some lightly animated characters or props. There's dozens of them released every month and they almost invariably use DS, or to put it more accurately they use DS renders of DAZ content with occasional postwork. Anyone whose played one of these 'games' will easily spot the stuff they're using...

Now this was a market that Poser could have seriously aimed for, and in fact once upon a time it did see healthy use in this industry. But once the DAZ split happened and all the best vendors making the best content flocked to DS, so did the industry. To get them back would require serious investment into Poser content by someone with deep pockets but so far all the owners seem to want to crowdfund it's content. Which doesn't really inspire much confidence if you're a business looking for pipeline tools.

@Retrowave I should have mentioned that I primarily use the genesis1- 2 figures that do not have facial bone rigs..

I use only two G3 figures because they are excellent male Characters (Ivan7 and "fat george" HD).

which is Moot because the facial mocap video to which you linked does not use the existing face bone cluster of Daz G3/8 but indeed requires you build your own from scratch, so Again I see Zero time saving benefit in bring in a rigged G3/8 for lip synch in Blender.

.

I use the mimic live plugin or sometimes the old mimic pro 3 for G2 figures.

I have three computers in use so have figured out how to pipe pre recorded audio to mimic live and I hand key my facial expressions on top of the lip synch

.

Also I animate base layer body motion in iclone prop pipeline and retarget to Daz genesis figures and use natural motion Endorphin for any ragdoll character physics. (Endorphin still runs on windows 10).

Blenders Character animation tools are decent.

However MY pipeline is based on realtime motion building in iclone using its Autodesk Human IK system, and instant retargeting directly to Daz genesis figures via BVH.

Thus I find iclone's system Far easier to use with my preferred figure generations daz genesis 1-2&3. as Iclone 3Dxchange auto recognizes Daz figures for instant retargeting of realtime I-motion Data from iclone.

.

obj/MDD maintains perfect mesh/joint fidelity in my rendering app I can even use the Daz decimator plugin for super low res back ground people exported an instanced for crowds in Lightwave or C4D.

Not discounting that genesis to blender plugin and yes he might cobble his blender native "HD process" for his imported Daz rigs, but again... I refuse to have any more third party, non native plugins as single point of failure in my workflow.

Third party, non native plugins come and go, and even the FOSS GPL license does not protect them from not being updated by the author when a new Blender version breaks functionality

.

ghonma posted at 10:43AM Sun, 29 December 2019 - #4374896

The 3D/CGprofessionals that actually matter, are not using Poser/Daz studio or Iclone.

Actually one area of the CG industry makes heavy use of DS, namely 'adventure games.' Well they call them adventure games but it's mostly a basic mystery or adventure plot with some casual puzzle solving and things like finding hidden objects and so on. There's lots of static backgrounds with some lightly animated characters or props. There's dozens of them released every month and they almost invariably use DS, or to put it more accurately they use DS renders of DAZ content with occasional postwork. Anyone whose played one of these 'games' will easily spot the stuff they're using...

As a dude who winds up playing timewasters on airplanes, in airports, etc... yeah, I find it very hard to avoid seeing the ads for those, and there are zillions of them. Those types of games definitely have SME-level budgets, and DS/Poser definitely fit into that level of budgeting. You can almost tick off the catalog numbers of 'em... I hadn't been on Facebook for over a year, but back when I bothered I remember a zillion more html5-based games which carried pre-digested DS-made animation, and I suspect those are still around as well.

But, to be fair, those shops, with very few exceptions, are shoestring operations, with almost no budget for much of anything, but they're competing in a market which demands at least a little CG wow-factor...

CHK2033 posted at 1:42PM Sun, 29 December 2019 - #4374852

I seen this argument alot, and this was the only thing said which could be why at the moment Blender was/is not heavily used in Studios:

large corporations whose bottom line depends on getting stuff done quickly,they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone if their software isn't behaving as they would expect, or if they run into problems. With open source software, there is nobody to call, and nobody invested in making sure you succeed, so using opensource software is seen as more of a risk

Along with that always-on tech support, those corporate studios have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless man hours into developing their own tools and custom UIs for Maya/Max over many years and training their teams on how to use them. Combined with the incentives they receive to continue using Autodesk products and the incentives the schools receive to continue teaching it, there is virtually nothing that will unseat that in the foreseeable future. It would take something completely revolutionary to even attempt it, and even then, in order for said miracle thing to even take hold in the industry, it would still have to play well with Maya/Max in order to get off the ground. People use what they're comfortable with and have the most training in. They'll dabble with other stuff especially when its free, and they'll b*tch and moan in the forums when something comes along to disturb their comfort but they still go back to what they're most familiar with 99% of the time.