Good evening every one. My name is Lee Duva. I was wondering if there anyone here who interesting in for a pay commission for rigging a outfit? Over the years I been buying and commission artist for outfits in Deviant art. Here is my gallery. https://www.deviantart.com/ludedwolf/gallery/62648939/characters-outfits Recently I pay 3d modelers to turn some of my outfits into daz outfits bearly. It works but at the same time it doesn't. Due to the modelers not being familiar with Daz/poser. Here are the example of them. https://www.deviantart.com/johngate2014/art/Eira-11-818925588

https://www.deviantart.com/johngate2014/art/Succubus-Heart-2-806257753

https://www.deviantart.com/johngate2014/art/Raven-Stealth-1-803110972

The problem with rigging Daz clothing is how archaic Daz Studio's paint weighting is. It's REALLY bad. Add in the fact that Daz3D essentially sues anyone that uses their rigs "without permission" for "copyright violation", a lot of people, like myself, have no interest in it. In addition, all the extra JCMs you have to sculpt for, it's a lot of work

I tried asking questions on the Daz Forums about creating content for Daz Studio, but was treated like shit by the majority of the forum users and I couldn't even get a reply from Daz3D, when I asked.

My question is what's the problem you're having with riggers? Is it they're unfamiliar with Daz Rigging or are there issues with the paint weighting?

Room101Studios posted at 9:45AM Sun, 09 February 2020 - #4379583

The problem with rigging Daz clothing is how archaic Daz Studio's paint weighting is. It's REALLY bad.

What do you mean here?

Add in the fact that Daz3D essentially sues anyone that uses their rigs "without permission" for "copyright violation"

Not correct, if you mean for making add-ons. If you mean for creating stand-alone figures, then yes it is prohibited.

, a lot of people, like myself, have no interest in it. In addition, all the extra JCMs you have to sculpt for, it's a lot of work

I tried asking questions on the Daz Forums about creating content for Daz Studio, but was treated like shit by the majority of the forum users and I couldn't even get a reply from Daz3D, when I asked.

The problem was that you were unclear as to what you meant - an add-on (such as hair or clothing) or a stand-alone model (such as a new human or monster that wasn't a character for the base figure) and how you meant to use the result (to be distributed in its own right, or content embedded in a game or application)

My question is what's the problem you're having with riggers? Is it they're unfamiliar with Daz Rigging or are there issues with the paint weighting?

@ The OP: for clarification any clothing models you comission will have to be modeled to fit around the base shape of its intended target to conform correctly with the Daz transfer utility when rigged.

Just to BE VERY CLEAR!!!!. That fact that your ORIGINAL SELF MADE MESH (shirt, pants body suit etc) now fits around or encloses ANY PART OF THE of the Daz base figure mesh makes it a "derivative work" and subject to the Daz EULA

This means DAZ CONTROLS how YOUR ORIGINAL MESH can be distributed/sold even shared as freebie item.

I am a Daz content developer for my own internal use. The attached pics show my original low poly base mesh upon which I build my custom clothing for genesis 1,2,3 for animated films using Iclone to retarget motion to Genesis figures.

I tried to GIVE MY ORIGINAL SILO MESH to other Daz studio users FREE with no restrictions

According to an Email from DAZ to me, MY low poly ORIGINAL Silo mesh copies "the unique shape of their model"and thus is no longer my intellectual property.

But becomes theirs to control.?

They did invite me to apply to be a Daz merchant and Sell the base clothing dev mesh in their store.

..I declined. ?

FYI

Room101Studios posted at 2:39PM Sun, 09 February 2020 - #4379583

The problem with rigging Daz clothing is how archaic Daz Studio's paint weighting is. It's REALLY bad. Add in the fact that Daz3D essentially sues anyone that uses their rigs "without permission" for "copyright violation", a lot of people, like myself, have no interest in it. In addition, all the extra JCMs you have to sculpt for, it's a lot of work

I tried asking questions on the Daz Forums about creating content for Daz Studio, but was treated like shit by the majority of the forum users and I couldn't even get a reply from Daz3D, when I asked.

My question is what's the problem you're having with riggers? Is it they're unfamiliar with Daz Rigging or are there issues with the paint weighting?

The modelers who I hired seem to have a difficult time understanding the rigging system of Daz. I did sent them tutorial videos. Some of them were using blenders while the rest was using Marvelous Designer.

"My question is what's the problem you're having with riggers? Is it they're unfamiliar with Daz Rigging or are there issues with the paint weighting?"

I think it a little bit of both. But mostly their unfamiliar with Daz3d.

wolf359 posted at 3:02PM Sun, 09 February 2020 - #4379655

@ The OP: for clarification any clothing models you comission will have to be modeled to fit around the base shape of its intended target to conform correctly with the Daz transfer utility when rigged.

Just to BE VERY CLEAR!!!!. That fact that your ORIGINAL SELF MADE MESH (shirt, pants body suit etc) now fits around or encloses ANY PART OF THE of the Daz base figure mesh makes it a "derivative work" and subject to the Daz EULA

This means DAZ CONTROLS how YOUR ORIGINAL MESH can be distributed/sold even shared as freebie item.

I am a Daz content developer for my own internal use. The attached pics show my original low poly base mesh upon which I build my custom clothing for genesis 1,2,3 for animated films using Iclone to retarget motion to Genesis figures.

I tried to GIVE MY ORIGINAL SILO MESH to other Daz studio users FREE with no restrictions

According to an Email from DAZ to me, MY low poly ORIGINAL Silo mesh copies "the unique shape of their model"and thus is no longer my intellectual property.

But becomes theirs to control.?

They did invite me to apply to be a Daz merchant and Sell the base clothing dev mesh in their store.

..I declined. ?

FYI

Damn! I didn't know that! Does that rule applies to selling in Renderosity to? I have a lot of outfits in my devient art account, many of them I purchase from artists. My goal is to have many of them turn into daz3d outfit, to not only to sale. But mostly so that I can use them for renders for my character, and also use them for Game Deving. I have Poser pro 11, Iclone 7,Spriter pro, and UE4. If I may ask. Is Poser Pro policy similar to daz3d. I may just switch from daz3d to Poser pro, if not. Then what about Iclone 7?

@Wolf359

This is not quite the whole story the main issues were in relation to your packaging a figure using the Genesis base rig and seeking to distribute it under an Open Source licence. A practice that would have issue with almost any figure based related EULA out there. Effectively distributing a derivative item under a new license. that included actual Daz 3D content which exists under it's own licence that can be found in the Daz 3D EULA.

The original thread is here: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2910846

Reallusion and practically every other software have similar licensing conditions in some cases even tougher...

For example: "6. Members and Vendors are not authorized to sell, duplicate, sub-license or publish any original, exported, re-purposed or derivative REALLUSION content in any third-party marketplace, regardless of file format." Ouch...

https://www.reallusion.com/Reallusion_Content_EULA.pdf

"3. You are not authorized to sell, resell, sell as, duplicate, share, distribute, sub-license, publish, market, or represent - for re-sale or as free objects, any REALLUSION CONTENT STORE Content or 'The Model', or any derivative thereof.

4. You are authorized to modify, sell modified versions, distribute modified versions, market, or represent - for re-sale or as free objects, any default content, except content designated as official contributing artist content, or any derivative thereof. Content may only be resold in the Marketplace and/or Content Store operated by REALLUSION.

5. DERIVATIVE CONTENT using a 3D mesh that is not significantly modified from the original BASE CONTENT must retain the original DRM protection of the BASE CONTENT. It must also be assigned as a derivative of the BASE CONTENT when publishing in the Marketplace.

6. Members and Vendors are not authorized to sell, duplicate, sub-license or publish any original, exported, re-purposed or derivative REALLUSION content in any third-party marketplace, regardless of file format. This includes Reallusion proprietary file formats, BVH, FBX, OBJ, and all other standard industry formats.

7. Any and all default CONTENT in the Character Creator is the property of and proprietary to REALLUSION, and cannot be published in any third-party marketplace. This includes original REALLUSION default CONTENT, CONTENT sold in REALLUSION content packs, as well as all derivative content created by Member(s) and Vendor(s). Any user-generated content derived from original REALLUSION content can only be sold in the REALLUSION Content Store and Marketplace.

8. For any published CONTENT that is determined, at REALLUSION’s sole discretion, to be substantially similar to other existing CONTENT, REALLUSION will contact the Vendor to request the removal of the aforementioned content. If the content is not removed within 48 hours, the Vendor’s account may be temporarily suspended. "

wolf359 posted at 1:07PM Mon, 10 February 2020 - #4379655

I tried to GIVE MY ORIGINAL SILO MESH to other Daz studio users FREE with no restrictions

According to an Email from DAZ to me, MY low poly ORIGINAL Silo mesh copies "the unique shape of their model"and thus is no longer my intellectual property.

But becomes theirs to control.?

They did invite me to apply to be a Daz merchant and Sell the base clothing dev mesh in their store.

..I declined. ?

FYI

I tried to GIVE MY ORIGINAL SILO MESH to other Daz studio users FREE with no restrictions

You built an "Original Silo Mesh" then transferred the Genesis rigging to that new figure and wanted to distribute it as a new Open Source asset. The Mesh is possibly derivative depending on how you created it. The rig is 100% derivative of Daz 3D owned and copyrighted content. In most cases it is OK to sell, use or share derivative content of Daz 3D models except as spelled out within the EULA which you agreed to.

But becomes theirs to control.

This is simply untrue the only "control" Daz 3D has over it are spelled out in the EULA licence.

Can you name a single commercial 3D figure that allows you to take derivative core content and package and place it under a new Open Source licence to distribute offsite? Many do allow this kind of process under controlled conditions as Daz 3D does.

leeduva posted at 1:32PM Mon, 10 February 2020 - #4379670

Damn! I didn't know that! Does that rule applies to selling in Renderosity to? I have a lot of outfits in my devient art account, many of them I purchase from artists. My goal is to have many of them turn into daz3d outfit, to not only to sale. But mostly so that I can use them for renders for my character, and also use them for Game Deving. I have Poser pro 11, Iclone 7,Spriter pro, and UE4. If I may ask. Is Poser Pro policy similar to daz3d. I may just switch from daz3d to Poser pro, if not. Then what about Iclone 7?

This is kind of difficult to give a straight answer too, tbh.

"I have a lot of outfits in my deviant art account, many of them I purchase from artists."

You need to define purchase, was there an actual license attached to the purchase? Do you now own sole and unlimited usage rights for the content? If so hiring to have them rigged as clothing assets for any of the Genesis figure series and releasing them commercially is unlikely to be an issue.

"My goal is to have many of them turn into daz3d outfit, to not only to sale."

This is entirely possible with Daz Studio dependent on your usage rights of the content.

For example: Purchasing a static jacket from a 3D graphic seller/modeller and then rigging it to work with Genesis 8 is entirely fine, even for most commercial use, as long you meet both the licence agreements of the static jacket seller and of any Daz 3D derivative content terms. If the static jacket was purchased under a personal use type license then you would have an issue. If you purchased or created a new 3D figure mesh then transferred Genesis 8 base rigging to it you would need to talk/work with Daz 3D for any kind of commercial /distribution release of any packaged content.

"But mostly so that I can use them for renders for my character, and also use them for Game Deving."

Both of these usages constitute personal use and are fine in the majority of cases with most software. However Game Development is not considered the same as Game publishing, if you want to ever release/distribute an actual piece of game software you may need to purchase additional extended licences for any 3rd party content used. This may include interactive licenses for Genesis 8 derivative content in my understanding.

"If I may ask. Is Poser Pro policy similar to daz3d. I may just switch from daz3d to Poser pro, if not."

Which policy? Both have various licences and terms in place for their content and usage. Most encourage the creation and sharing of content that supports their content, some even allow it to be resold at 3rd party stores...

You built an "Original Silo Mesh" then transferred the Genesis rigging to that new figure and wanted to distribute it as a new Open Source asset. The Mesh is possibly derivative depending on how you created it. The rig is 100% derivative of Daz 3D owned >and copyrighted content

Wrong.. I tried to give away the empty, hollow NON rigged original Silo mesh ,you see in the pictures, to help others make their own FREE clothing

Daz said no.?

Because MY MESH was pulled with C4D magnet tools to loosely enclose a daz figure shape it becomes subject to their EULA

Razor42 the link you posted is about a Daz studio transfer utility rigged mesh and I conceded that the daz RIGGING should be controled by them ?

Daz considers any static NON RIGGED mesh pushed scaled or pulled to fit around any portion of a genesis mesh (even a torus primitive scaled to fit a wedding ring finger)

to be a "derivative' of their figures "unique shape"

@ the OP do not listen to us third parties!! ?

Ask daz themselves and they will confirm what I have stated regarding ORIGINAL MESHES THAT ENCLOSE THEIR FIGURES Shape.

A Suggestion! To get the best results finding someone capable to help getting your Clothes rigged correctly try contacting some Creators directly, In forums like here or Daz you sure will not get the Help required. Your Outfits look very promising and I believe you would have great success with them! Forender, Xurge3D, they are not bound on these big brokers with all these restrictions and limitations making life difficult to have a good startup. I mean get Creators that do not have to much to do with these communities as there is allot of Jealousy and fear of concurrence. Give it a shot contacting a Creator directly showing your base Mesh, look at what they are capable of doing based on there released works, avoid creators that are hanging out to much in the forums, the silent ones are the best :) Make a good deal with a capable poser Ds Creator behind the doors to ensure a good start without disturbing Obstacles.

wolf359 posted at 10:25AM Tue, 11 February 2020 - #4379746

You built an "Original Silo Mesh" then transferred the Genesis rigging to that new figure and wanted to distribute it as a new Open Source asset. The Mesh is possibly derivative depending on how you created it. The rig is 100% derivative of Daz 3D owned >and copyrighted content

Wrong.. I tried to give away the empty, hollow NON rigged original Silo mesh ,you see in the pictures, to help others make their own FREE clothing

Daz said no.?

Because MY MESH was pulled with C4D magnet tools to loosely enclose a daz figure shape it becomes subject to their EULA

Razor42 the link you posted is about a Daz studio transfer utility rigged mesh and I conceded that the daz RIGGING should be controled by them ?

Daz considers any static NON RIGGED mesh pushed scaled or pulled to fit around any portion of a genesis mesh (even a torus primitive scaled to fit a wedding ring finger)

to be a "derivative' of their figures "unique shape"

@ the OP do not listen to us third parties!! ?

Ask daz themselves and they will confirm what I have stated regarding ORIGINAL MESHES THAT ENCLOSE THEIR FIGURES Shape.

So you are saying that it was a mesh shape made using a Genesis figure as a shape guide, to allow the easier creation of clothes for Genesis. But you feel that it is in no way to be considered as to be derivative of the Genesis mesh or figure? Honestly, the terms of use and even for distribution of derivative content are covered in the Daz 3D EULA. And again DAZ 3D gains no ownership of even derivative content, they have the same controls as practically every similar business in the market. Let me ask if Daz asked you to release the item in their store and you rolled your eyes at them and declined, why should they allow the release of what they consider to be derivative content elsewhere? Tell me would Reallusion do the same? Would most businesses do the same?

Incantus posted at 10:53AM Tue, 11 February 2020 - #4379820

A Suggestion! To get the best results finding someone capable to help getting your Clothes rigged correctly try contacting some Creators directly, In forums like here or Daz you sure will not get the Help required. Your Outfits look very promising and I believe you would have great success with them! Forender, Xurge3D, they are not bound on these big brokers with all these restrictions and limitations making life difficult to have a good startup. I mean get Creators that do not have to much to do with these communities as there is allot of Jealousy and fear of concurrence. Give it a shot contacting a Creator directly showing your base Mesh, look at what they are capable of doing based on there released works, avoid creators that are hanging out to much in the forums, the silent ones are the best :) Make a good deal with a capable poser Ds Creator behind the doors to ensure a good start without disturbing Obstacles.

Lol, what? Of course contacting creators directly is an option, but so is broadcasting in forums.

To suggest that because someone participates in a forum indicates that somehow are flawed is a little strange tbh.

they are not bound on these big brokers with all these restrictions and limitations making life difficult to have a good startup

"Bound", "restrictions" "limitations"? Tell me more?

Make a good deal with a capable poser Ds Creator behind the doors to ensure a good start without disturbing Obstacles.

Disturbing obstacles?

Just to note the OP is not looking for just someone to just rig their meshes. But someone to take the clothing items from concept sketches and model, texture and rig them.

Honestly, your first post in the Renderosity forums is to tell people " In forums like here or Daz you sure will not get the Help required.". Makes me question your motives tbh.

The OP stated "clearly"

"Quote" I was wondering if there anyone here who interesting in for a pay commission for rigging a outfit? Recently I pay 3d modelers to turn some of my outfits into daz outfits bearly.

after this clear question no one in here was able to either say " Hey I'll do it, show me your mesh " or " you might want to contact this ?? creator " the answers were rather misleading , the way I read seems that there are allot of excuses that it could not be possible rather then it would, placing rules and Eulas before even any could say that it would be possible to RIG hes outfits.

So I must somehow of missed out something that the OP asked to make the Model from scratch using sketches.If it were it also would be possible, but might make it pretty expensive.

So Razor , if you are looking for a job or a clear assignment in RL the one who gives out the work usually expects a clear answer. either I can or I can't but sure not a list of possibilities, rules, or even teach me.

If like here it is a proposal to hire someone I believe that only the ones capable of doing will get the Job, others will not be taken in consideration. So would you be able to do it, or not , a simple question asking for a simple answer.

anyway I'm out , gave out my opinion , no time for a endless discussion concerning the simple question to hire a Person. " I am not interested in the Job " but someone else might be.

Despite what you believe Incantus forums are for sharing information people will talk. sometimes endlessly. It doesn't need to be cut and dry answers only.

Discussion with others who are already actively doing exactly what the OP is looking for can provide insight and suggestions even if they do not have the time or are interested in the position themselves. I know for a fact that Wolf359 has produced many custom outfits for use in DS and other apps. And even though at times we may disagree his opinions are always measured and well worth considering. I myself have produced numerous custom outfits that have been commercially released for DS.

To be honest I can't see any harm in discussion around the OPs post, I am sure any who are interested in the role will reach out with any further questions or express their interest directly. If the OP is interested in making these commissions commercially available in the future it would seem important to have some kind of understanding of how EULAs and the way copyright works may affect their investment moving forward.

"So would you be able to do it, or not , a simple question asking for a simple answer." Yes. Am I interested in the role? Not at this point in time, but I am happy to take the time to offer advice that may be helpful to the OP in reaching his/her goals.

And I am sure the OP can clear up any confusion over what exactly he/she is looking for here.

Someone to do some DS rigging or someone who can make a fully functioning DS/Poser product from a mock up sketch?

I'm confused about how Daz can claim ownership of a home-made, not-Genesis, generic, 3D human that near as I can tell was never actually loaded into Daz. What's up with that?!

Also, I found a couple youtube channels that are overflowing with incredible how-to videos. But I suddenly don't feel this is the place or the thread to mention them :(

Copyright and derivative are rather complex legal issues and honestly it can come down to just pure opinion and it can be an expensive and lengthy process to prove yourself right against the opinion of a company or business that have an interest in defending their IP.

Mesh derivatives can also be a very fine line these days with tools available such as mesh shrink wrapping that see an entire mesh being labelled as derivative simply from the way it was formed into shape. I think the main issues here in wolf359s case has more to do with the figure/mesh being seen as some kind of Low Res Genesis clone, which was likely modelled from the Genesis figure base. This enough would be grounds to see the mesh as some kind of derivative work, using the actual legal definition of the term "is a work based upon one or more preexisting works". The main issue with copyright is when Daz 3D says it feels an item is derivative and move forward to issue a cease and desist notice, if you disagree with that diagnosis, then your only real options are to begin legal proceeding to show that this item is in no way derivative of the Genesis figure mesh.

How strongly do you feel the case here is that this item is in no way 'based' on pre-existing IP owned by Daz 3D?

If this same mesh was marketed as a static low res human shape unconnected to Genesis, I don't think any issue would of arose with distributing the mesh. Context matters.

"Also, I found a couple youtube channels that are overflowing with incredible how-to videos."

Sounds interesting, feel free to share them.

I'm confused about how Daz can claim ownership of a home-made, not-Genesis, generic, 3D human that near as I can tell was never actually loaded into Daz. >What's up with that?!

Hi, it is Daz official position that any of your original 3D geometry that you rehsaped to enclose/fit /flow along any part of their mesh has essentially "Copied the unique shape of their figure" and is subject to the Daz EULA restriction (as determined by Daz).

To be fair you really DO have to import the genesis1,2,3,8 base mesh into your modeling program to properly model clothing that is going to conform correctly with the super easy Daz transfer utility.

As you can see ,in my pic, the green skinned guy is the Daz genesis2 male base mesh with my hoodie & sweat pants modeled around him from my Silo created base dev mesh.

I can make an entire outfit head to toe out fit in one afternnon from that Silo base mesh as I have one fitted for G2,G3,G8.?

Is Daz's postion legally defensable in court?? only an expensive legal challenge would shake that out for certain?

Do I actually care??...NO... as it does not effect my pipeline where I create my own clothing &custom morphs for any genesis generation for animation rendering in Iclone, lightwave, Blender and do not ever spend one single penny at the daz store (or anywhere else) for 3D content anymore.?

Others will have to learn to model and make their own as the current DAZ PA's have

I Felt that the OP of this thread ,needed to understand all of the potential pitfalls of hiring third parties to build Genesis clothing content as many might be surprised to learn that their original shirt/pants/Shoe model meshes become subject to the DAZ EULA the very second they fit them in the way required for proper rigging/conforming

That's interesting. I agree, without the expensive legal test, we will never really know. Something to keep in mind. Thanks for sharing, both wolf359 and Razor42. I do spend some money in the stores, because I think the vendors are doing some beautiful work and different than what I'm working on. I doubt that will change any time soon. :)