Hello, everybody. I'm a longtime 2D animator who is looking to expand his horizons a little bit. I was gifted a copy of Poser 8 (if I can learn it enough to be useful, I intend to get a full current version, this is just a way to try it without spending too much money) on a late 2009 Macbook running 10.6 (before Apple blocked Flash, so all features are enabled, as far as I can tell).

I've been playing around with it, and I'm running into some confusion. I'm a tinkerer, I like playing around with things while learning. To that end, I found a few free Poser compatible models to try and incorporate. But I'm confused by the whole concept of the runtime environment. I can put the downloads in a separate file folder (which I would prefer to do, so I can sort my stuff by rights management responsibilities) and import them into the Content Library just fine. One tutorial told me to just drag and drop the new runtime folder into the proper Poser runtime folder and it will merge everything (I created a clone of the drive and tried it. Nope, it overwrote the folder and crashed Poser 8).

So, what happens if I just keep using separate folders for new Poser content instead of putting it in the "proper" runtime directory? If I try to manually merge the stuff in the new runtime with the proper directory under Poser, how do I make sure the correct model/name/etc. is seen? Am I overthinking this, or will it cause conflicts and crashes if I don't do it the "proper" way?

So, you are saying that merging folders does not happen on your system. That is rather unfortunate but I believe there may be software to help you with that. Can't advise, I'm a PC man. There is nothing preventing you from keeping content in their own separate folders under these particular circumstances. However, you will quickly generate a multitude of runtime folders, and keeping track of them will be a logistical nightmare. I have 84 runtime folders in my Library, categorized under different topics and content types. A management gambit that can become tedious if I'm doing a large scene. But, in your case, textures for a particular figure, prop, or hair might be in a separate runtime when it would make sense that they coexist with their corresponding content. My suggest, open your compressed files, study the hierarchy of each folder within, and manually move them to each corresponding folder in your library runtime folder of your choosing. Do it slowly and carefully so that when you open Poser, your content will be clearly visible in the Library. Do this until you can figure out the merging problem.

The purpose of a runtime structure is to allow all items to use the same file paths, regardless of which type of computer they're on or how the user has organized their computer. So everything from the top level Runtime folder on down to sub-folders should stay "as is" so that all file path references will continue to work. If you open a Poser library file with a text editor (I recommend BBEdit for Mac), you'll see that OBJs, image files, and other kinds of files are referenced with a file path that starts with :Runtime: That means Poser doesn't need to know the full root path of the item (like MacintoshHD:Users: etc.), just the path from Runtime on down. I hope that makes sense!

That's not to say that there's no flexibility for organizing your stuff, because there is, but only within the Libraries section. You should not attempt any custom organization of what's in the Textures or Geometries sections of the Runtime b/c then you'll disrupt the file paths for various items in your Library. Consider, for example, adding a prop to your scene. You'd go to your Props library within Poser and double click on a file. If Poser can find all of the elements referenced in that file, it will load. But if you've changed where some of those elements are stored, then Poser can't immediately find them. (It may find them eventually if you have "deep search" enabled, but that's beside the point b/c the elements should never have been moved in the first place!)

In other words, a prop in your Props library is basically just a text file with a bunch of info about the prop, including where on your hard drive Poser can find the prop's OBJ file (in the Geometries folder) and where it can find the prop's textures (in the Textures folder). So you don't want to mess with where those things are, unless you're prepared to do a LOT of text file editing!

When someone prepares a prop (or other item) to deliver for sale or as a freebie, they put all the component parts of the prop into the Runtime structure to make it easy for you to know where the components parts need to go. Whatever top-level folder they put inside the Geometries folder is what you should put into yours. Same with Textures. Often these top-level folders contain the vendor's name, and inside will be another folder with the product name. As you accumulate more stuff, you'll appreciate having things organized this way.

When you're just starting out, you might as well put whatever's in the Libraries folders in the same places the creator put them in as well. But most items for Poser (if done correctly) will not contains path references to elements within the Libraries section of the Runtime, only to the Geometries and Textures sections, so that will give you some flexibility in how you organize your Libraries sub-folders. (You could, for example, create a top-level folder in your Props library folder called KITCHEN STUFF and put all kitchen prop library files you get into that folder, and everything should still work -- provided you put the Geometries and Textures files where they're supposed to go, not into the library folder).

Now, as to the issue of "dragging and dropping" a downloaded Runtime onto your main Runtime: as you've discovered, that won't work on a Mac, at least not the way it's described. That's b/c Macs don't automatically offer the option to "merge" contents, which puts all the new stuff in the right place w/o impacting what's already there. But you CAN get the "Merge" option to appear if you hold down the Option key while dragging one onto the other.

However, I think a better method is to always install from an external disk. I have a HD on my wifi network (connected to another Mac) that is the destination for all Poser items I download, and I unzip them while still on that HD. With the downloaded item's Runtime open, I can then drag and drop onto my main Poser runtime (on my Mac's internal drive) and will always get the option to "Merge". I still have to be careful not to accidentally click the "Replace" option, but at least I don't have to remember to hold down the Option key!

Nevertheless, I still don't use the method of copying an entire Runtime onto another b/c I want more control over the process (esp. where items within the Libraries section are placed). But I do drag the top-level folder under Textures onto my Textures folder and the top-level folder under Geometries onto my Geometries folder, and as I've said, those are the most import parts to keep the same as they were delivered to you in the download.

I hope this explanation has been of at least some use to you! But always feel free to ask more questions, as that's a great way to learn more about Poser (as is searching the forums to see what other questions may have already been answered!)

Yes, so far as I know "drag-and-drop to merge" is a Windows-only thing. But possibly someone might have produced some freeware for the Mac that emulates this useful feature?

I would suggest the best way to organise the content in the way you want is to create new runtimes and add these to poser. Somewhere on your drive that poser can write to create a folder named whatever you want ( a descriptive name of the sort of stuff you are going to put in this runtime) and in this folder create a folder called runtime. Now in poser you add this runtime to your content by clicking on the symbol of upright books with the plus near the top right of your library window. This opens a window that allows you to navigate to the folder you have created, select this and poser will add a runtime to your library.

Now if the content is correctly structured within the zip folder you can use the install from zip archive to add content to this runtime.. (If the zip file doesn't have runtime folder as one of its top folders you have to install manually)

HartyBart posted at 3:13AM Sun, 13 September 2020 - #4399193

Yes, so far as I know "drag-and-drop to merge" is a Windows-only thing. But possibly someone might have produced some freeware for the Mac that emulates this useful feature?

No third party software needed. You just hold down the option key while dragging and dropping and then you'll get the option to "merge."

This is an issue which is best solved by the developers. Explaining all of the above to new users one by one by one by one for years is very well intentioned and generous, but also highly inefficient. And also often ineffective, as it would be easy to read this entire thread (and others like it) and still not understand how the system works.

What's not being understood is that while some users like the original poster will ask questions, and others like me will honk their rants, most people who get confused will instead quietly vanish, along with their money. Point being, most of the problem is invisible to us.

In any software, when particular questions come up again and again over a period of years that's not a user problem, that's an interface design problem. As a programmer myself, I will guess that it should be possible for Poser to have a highly simplified point and click product install process requiring no knowledge which dumps all incoming content in to a New Content folder, and then the user can drag the files around within the Library in order to achieve whatever organizational structure works for them.

Why does this matter? As you all know, content creators are increasingly focusing on Daz products. In just my first month in Poserland I've already had a number of people tell me not to bother with Poser because new content for it is drying up. Point being, if it is to survive Poser needs every new user it can get it's hands on. Thus, unnecessary obstacles are the enemy.

Please recall, if Rendo can't make money owning Poser the software may be sold yet again, and we have no idea who would then be in control of the "call home" license checking server. This reality should be of particular interest to those of you who have already invested large sums in building your Poser content library. Don't forget, while it understandably seems like you own that content you spent so much money on, the reality is that whoever owns the license checking server has control over your access to that content, and thus they effectively own it, not you. Thus, it's in all of our interests that whoever owns the license checking server is fat and happy and doing well.

It's great that members are willing to assist new members, and I am personally grateful for the help I've received. All I'm suggesting is that such helping is just a highly imperfect patch, and not the real solution. The real solution will arrive when a consensus arises within the Poser community that content installation confusion is an unacceptable threat to the Poser community, including all the experienced long time users.

Welcome to Poser - it is great to have you join us.

This could be you one day:

Your best bet is to build your own runtimes - I put all of mine in a folder cleverly named !! Additional Runtimes

Inside this folder, I have a separate runtime for each figure I own, as well as environmental groupings (Horror buildings, Modern Environment, Modern homes etc - see image above.

Yes, that could be them some day, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on content that they don't actually control access to. Kind of a problem?

BabaBozo posted at 1:48AM Mon, 14 September 2020 - #4399369

In any software, when particular questions come up again and again over a period of years that's not a user problem, that's an interface design problem. As a programmer myself, I will guess that it should be possible for Poser to have a highly simplified point and click product install process requiring no knowledge which dumps all incoming content in to a New Content folder, and then the user can drag the files around within the Library in order to achieve whatever organizational structure works for them.

One of the main reasons I no longer use DAZ Studio is that I can't organize all my stuff the way I want to, as I'm locked into the app's idea of where things should be stored. Yes, they can be rearranged within the app, but I want control over where they are on my hard drive, as I find it so much easier to use the system's file manager (Finder for Mac, Explorer for Windows) to manage content than to let a 3D app try and do it.

I use Finder tags, saved searches, sidebar shortcuts, custom folder icons, and other features to organize not only my Poser Libraries contents but all the 3D-related stuff on my computer's internal drive. So I very much appreciate that I can put just about any library file type into any of the Libraries folders and they'll still show up in Poser's Libraries browser. I also appreciate being able to open those files with a text editor to make corrections or changes, which I do frequently (esp. to fix file paths).

When I first started out, I let DS and Poser install my content where each app thought it should go, but I quickly ran into the problem that not all content available for download is packaged correctly, and if it isn’t packaged correctly, stuff can end up all over the place. I also reached "boiling point" over how frustrating it was to find things in either app in a way that made sense to me. So I took a deep breath, learned how Runtimes are organized, completely overhauled mine (I use only ONE), and started installing all new downloads manually. In addition to gaining control over how everything within the Libraries folders was organized, I also learned so much about what, exactly, I was getting (or not getting) with each new product.

With two Finder (or Explorer) windows open side by side, I can install content from a downloaded runtime in about 30-90 seconds, putting what's in the Libraries section precisely where I want it to be (even renaming folders as needed). And once I've done that, I'm very clear on what I just got and can begin thinking about how to use it. That just works better for me than dumping a bunch of stuff into an "automatic" solution and then trying to figure out the mess later. The automatic solution may seem faster initially, but that time savings is lost if you later have to spend ages figuring out where stuff is.

But I also realize that every user is different, and no one method of content management will work for everyone. I've learned sooooo much from forum posts over the years, so I like to contribute my own experiences every now and then just to offer another perspective on how to accomplish common tasks.

It's always fun to see how other users organize their content, so thanks to ssgbryan for sharing that screenshot!

I just took a screenshot of my runtime in that same "columns" layout b/c it shows the folder hierarchy so clearly, but I don't actually use that layout for everyday viewing. (I prefer having two Finder windows side by side, each in list view and each with additional tabs as needed, with one for my projects in progress and the other for my Libraries folders.)

One thing an experienced user will immediately notice from this view is how many "extra" folders there are in both the Runtime top-level folder and in the Libraries top-level folder. Those are there b/c that's how they were delivered by the folks who offered them for free or for sale, even though those aren't the correct locations for those types of content. In some cases I will move the content to a correct location and then edit all the product's files to point to the new path, but in most cases I just leave the stuff where I find it.

As you can see, all that extra stuff can make it hard to spot the main folders that should be in the Libraries section, so I've used colored folder icons as well as tags to make them easier to spot. (The little colored dots to the right of folder names go with the tags I've assigned them, and I can access all tagged items from a sidebar menu not visible in this screenshot.)

Again, I am in no way suggesting that this is the "right" way to organize a Runtime, just that it's ONE way that might be of interest to others. And, like my user name suggests, my runtime organization remains subject to further revision :-)

What experienced users are not getting is that the very unwelcoming limitations of the content install system presents a real threat to their own often quite extensive investments in Poser content. It's the experienced users who are most at risk from this limitation of Poser.

If new users don't like the content install system, they can just grumble and walk away. If enough of them walk away, Rendo won't be able to make serious money selling Poser software and Poser content. And should be the case then, like has already happened a number of times, Poser may be sold yet again.

Your entire content library which you've invested so much money in could vanish in an instant along with Poser software if whoever owns Poser decides to pull the plug on the license checking server.

That's unlikely to happen so long as whoever owns Poser is making money. And that depends to a significant degree on them being able to successfully engage new users in buying Poser and Poser content.

Dear experienced users. You're the one who has invested a lot of money in Poser content. You're the one at risk here. Do you really want to bet your Poser library on your ability and willingness to teach frustrated new comers the broken install system, one by one by one for years?

Your intentions are good, but your strategy is not.

perpetualrevision posted at 12:36PM Sun, 27 September 2020 - #4399182

The purpose of a runtime structure is to allow all items to use the same file paths, regardless of which type of computer they're on or how the user has organized their computer. So everything from the top level Runtime folder on down to sub-folders should stay "as is" so that all file path references will continue to work. If you open a Poser library file with a text editor (I recommend BBEdit for Mac), you'll see that OBJs, image files, and other kinds of files are referenced with a file path that starts with :Runtime: That means Poser doesn't need to know the full root path of the item (like MacintoshHD:Users: etc.), just the path from Runtime on down. I hope that makes sense!

I apologize for the delay in responding, I've been a bit swamped, and this is my first day where I can catch up on messages. Also, I don't see an option to multiquote messages, so I can only respond to each individual message (I know this is a faux pax on some boards to post multiple responses instead of putting them all in one). So I will try to keep it to a minimum to avoid causing headaches.

Your explanation makes perfect sense. It's a relative filepath, not an absolute. It also explains the options for setting up the custom folder. I definitely see where this is a great idea. In other words, if I'm just playing around with a couple of models to get the hang of the interface, putting content in other folders is fine. But when it's time to get work done, stick with the actual set-up, or things will break.

That said, if I can ask -- I'm seeing models that are marked "rigged." Am I correct in assuming that this is like 2D animation in that, if something is rigged, it has a "skeleton" structure attached to it that enables control and movement, and if it isn't rigged, I will have to add the skeleton myself to make it functional? If I do have to add a skeleton, whether because the download doesn't have one or I create my own model, how difficult is it going to be to do this?

Nails60 posted at 12:43PM Sun, 27 September 2020 - #4399197

I would suggest the best way to organise the content in the way you want is to create new runtimes and add these to poser. Somewhere on your drive that poser can write to create a folder named whatever you want ( a descriptive name of the sort of stuff you are going to put in this runtime) and in this folder create a folder called runtime. Now in poser you add this runtime to your content by clicking on the symbol of upright books with the plus near the top right of your library window. This opens a window that allows you to navigate to the folder you have created, select this and poser will add a runtime to your library.

So, let's say that I am creating a fan animation, Star Trek Meets The Orville (I'm not doing this, and besides, I'd be surprised if there weren't already people working on something like this). So I could create a folder, say, on the desktop called STvTO. Inside this folder, I create another called "runtime" (case sensitive, I'm assuming). And into this folder I drag and drop all the asset files I get, putting each of the geometries into a "geometries" folder and so on. Or I could simply rename each asset folder as long as there is a runtime folder in the top level inside that folder and I'm willing to take the risk of things getting unweildly and confusing to handle. Am I right so far?

BabaBozo posted at 12:48PM Sun, 27 September 2020 - #4399369

This is an issue which is best solved by the developers. Explaining all of the above to new users one by one by one by one for years is very well intentioned and generous, but also highly inefficient. And also often ineffective, as it would be easy to read this entire thread (and others like it) and still not understand how the system works....

It's great that members are willing to assist new members, and I am personally grateful for the help I've received. All I'm suggesting is that such helping is just a highly imperfect patch, and not the real solution. The real solution will arrive when a consensus arises within the Poser community that content installation confusion is an unacceptable threat to the Poser community, including all the experienced long time users.

Well, to be fair, in this instance, I don't think it's fair to pin this on Rendo. The Poser I'm using is 8, which is (I believe) a 2009 vintage. I had used Poser 6 for artist reference in drawing my comic books at the time, and there are new features in 8 that I don't recall. I would suppose that 11.3 has a lot of advancements and is a lot more intuitive than 8 simply because they've had 10 years or more to refine and improve it. Remember, the only reason I'm testing out with Poser 8 is because 1) I want to see if I have the ability to make 3D animations work and 2) it was waaaaaaaay cheaper than a current version of Poser. Making things intuitive for the end user is a laudable goal. But when you have to bargain hunt, you don't always get the best options. An imperfect patch that enables you to get things done is better than no patch at all. Not dismissing what you say, just saying I appreciate having help even with outdated software.

ssgbryan posted at 12:56PM Sun, 27 September 2020 - #4399376

Welcome to Poser - it is great to have you join us.

This could be you one day:

Your best bet is to build your own runtimes - I put all of mine in a folder cleverly named !! Additional Runtimes

Inside this folder, I have a separate runtime for each figure I own, as well as environmental groupings (Horror buildings, Modern Environment, Modern homes etc - see image above.

I would probably start with a main content folder, and inside that, have separate folders for what usage rights the contained assets have, and subdivide from there. I cut my teeth in the FOSS community researching licenses, so that is always my first concern when it comes to acquiring content I can use. I even go berserk with fonts, combing over ever last sentence to make sure what I can and can't get away with, and even crosssearching other font sites to make sure what I have isn't someone else repackaging something with a different license he has no right to issue. I once spent $40 on a music library for my cartoons, only to find out his "royalty free music" was actually from Incompetech and, if I used it the way his "license" was saying to, I would be in a lot of trouble (Kevin MacLeod seems like a great guy, but for me, there's no substitute for simply staying out of trouble in the first place).

TheBlueSkyRanger posted at 3:35PM Sun, 27 September 2020 - #4400446

That said, if I can ask -- I'm seeing models that are marked "rigged." Am I correct in assuming that this is like 2D animation in that, if something is rigged, it has a "skeleton" structure attached to it that enables control and movement, and if it isn't rigged, I will have to add the skeleton myself to make it functional? If I do have to add a skeleton, whether because the download doesn't have one or I create my own model, how difficult is it going to be to do this?

If something is rigged, it has a skeleton as you said. It can be posed, portions of it moved, waving hands, opening doors etc. If it doesn't, you can still move it around, turned, scaled. It also can have morphs to allow some changes, like static hair may have morphs to simulate wind blowing it or to help it match the bending of the figure. There are also dynamics (cloth room or bullet physics) and magnets that can allow movement.

So, let's say that I am creating a fan animation, Star Trek Meets The Orville (I'm not doing this, and besides, I'd be surprised if there weren't already people working on something like this). So I could create a folder, say, on the desktop called STvTO. Inside this folder, I create another called "runtime" (case sensitive, I'm assuming). And into this folder I drag and drop all the asset files I get, putting each of the geometries into a "geometries" folder and so on. Or I could simply rename each asset folder as long as there is a runtime folder in the top level inside that folder and I'm willing to take the risk of things getting unweildly and confusing to handle. Am I right so far?

You can have a setup like this:

The name Pauline can be changed to anything. The other folders need those names. it doesn't matter if it is capitalized or not. In each of these folders, you can have other unique folders. Such as I have runtimes for each of my figures. In each clothing is sorted by genre, modern, historical, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.

You can also move the files in the library folders to other library folders. You will find hair that comes in the character folder because it is rigged. You might decide to move it to the hair folder so you only have to look in one place to pick out the hair you want. If you do this, don't forget to move the corresponding png file with it. Also this only is more the folders under the library. It doesn't include the textures or geometries.