SydneyInPeril posted at 9:48 PM Sun, 4 August 2024 - #4488048

RHaseltine posted at 3:34 PM Sat, 3 August 2024 - #4488013

In fact daz was very clear that the images used were its own store images in their blogs and, as I recal, in the emails.

It should have said so on the page for the generative engine. Not in a blog (that not everyone will have read) or in emails (which not everyone will have received, I know I never got any).

Basically, the indication of what the engine is trained on wasn't posted as visibly as it should have been. Hence, we have to make assumptions, and the assumption trained into us that it's being trained on whatever happens to be vacuumed up, whether it be from everywhere, or from all site posted content via changes to the TOS.

I will also comment that @DarkElegance has a view pretty close to my own. I like Studio over Poser. But my friend has had experiences regarding the mentality of the moderators when they pushed back on the advertising on the gallery thing, that they told me made it felt like they were being expected to couch 100% of their commentary in a very non-aggressive way or shut up, which caused them to delete all of their content in response and walk away from it.

So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.

It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.

There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.

And of course, Daz mods are obligated to delete posts like mine above from Daz site, so don't act surprised when words like mine get deleted. And it could happen here but maybe it won't?

To NeverTrumper, IME the mods here are a lot more tolerant than Daz site. Just look at my contributions to this thread and know that so far, my text remains unmolested. Yes, I once have had an issue with the mods here. It happened not long after I deleted my gallery. No, I did not actually get banned, though I did decide to take a lengthy break from the forums here  Yes, it was about AI art, though the ultimate result of all that was far different here than it would have been on Daz site.

Yes, I agree moderators are not our friends as you stated. I have never been to forums on 'Rotica or Rhub - TBH, I've no reason to go to the forums there. I heartily recommend staying away from DA forums - It's a cesspool. Also, everyone I know of who got kicked off of DA got kicked off because they did something or said something that offended a forum mod; and that was pretty much it for them. The danger on DA is, admins and site volunteers participate in their forums, not just as mods but as participants. It's possible there is no more actual moderation there, but I haven't visited a DA forum for a long, long time.

Torquinox posted at 7:47 PM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488115

 I heartily recommend staying away from DA forums - It's a cesspool. 

Yes, it is :-D
I always wondered at Moderators there anyway. 
There are so many pedophiles and Nazis active at DA

Nevertrumper posted at 11:14 AM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488106

In my experience, forum moderators are not your friends. They are to enforce forum and company rules, since in many ways the website owner can be made responsable for forum post.
Forum moderators also make sure, that no forum posts or threads are damaging the website owner's business model.
Just house rules.
So what do you expect?
You don't like DAZ moderation?
That's fine, you don't have to.
Just don't believe, it would be better here.
It isn't, neither at rotica or RenderHub.
DeviantArts is different as they don't seem to have an active moderation. 
Instead you'll see MAGA fascist all over at DA in their forum threads. 

I do get that. It's just frustrating that seems like even constructive criticism of DAZ, unless couched in the most milquetoast language, will get edited/deleted.

And to be fair, I don't like spending my money with any business that runs their forum like that. DAZ is not an outlier in that regard.

Torquinox posted at 7:40 PM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488114

So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.

It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.

There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.

That's the biggest frustration. There isn't a commitment to "delete it all and start over to placate the artists we screwed over", and anyone who thinks artists are "overpaid" are very much trying to jump on this and make it work - hell, anyone who thinks people are overpaid for anything are trying very very hard to jump on this and make it work.

It also shows how broken the entire copyright system is, since it pretty much is expecting the artists to go after the companies in court for enforcement, and otherwise is basically slanted in the direction of the biggest coffers. As long as the companies in question get to basically rake the internet, it takes away the biggest and best forms of advertisement from the artists because it's a serious risk to put anything on the internet because it will get fed into one of these engines without a lot of work to attempt to poison the input, and that only really works if enough artists agree to do the poisoning without so many doing it that all the engineers have to do is add a special case to inoculate against the poisoning. Granted, that was already a problem (just look at the art that gets downloaded and slapped on t-shirts!), but Generative Imagery Engines make the problem so much bigger because now an artist's style can be "emulated", and is much harder to point at in a court as a direct copyright violation.

@SydneyInPeril : Yes, totally agree with everything you said!

Nevertrumper posted at 11:14 AM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488106

In my experience, forum moderators are not your friends. They are to enforce forum and company rules, since in many ways the website owner can be made responsable for forum post.
Forum moderators also make sure, that no forum posts or threads are damaging the website owner's business model.
Just house rules.
So what do you expect?
You don't like DAZ moderation?
That's fine, you don't have to.
Just don't believe, it would be better here.
It isn't, neither at rotica or RenderHub.
DeviantArts is different as they don't seem to have an active moderation. 
Instead you'll see MAGA fascist all over at DA in their forum threads. 

You are aware, that 1-forum mods are there to uphold the ToS of a site, they keep abuse down and to make sure that posts adhere to the conversation thread. They are not there to abuse their power or unnecessarily censor customers. And 2-they are not supposed to allow their personal preference interfere with what is and isnt expressed, as long as it is within the ToS

Any professional forum I have been on, has adhered to those standards. If a site, a consumer site is so panic stricken, so fearing its customers as to have to slam the hammer down on someone saying,

“Some companies will go after you and some wont” in regard to fan art/IP that is a red flag of the biggest kind.

If customers simply asking (what is their legal and ethical right) if they have the valid IP right to sell materials on a specific Movie/book set(because it is not clear), scares them and makes them delete a forum post...red flag!

If they allow their own personal likes and dislikes to favour certain members and censure others, that is not PROFESSIONAL.

I am a forum moderator on a chat site, and we are NOT allowed to “I dont like that member, so I am going to chase their post” behaviour.
We are not allowed to base a decision if a post is "ok” or not, on if we “like” the person or not. If it doesn't break the ToS, it doesn't get removed. Its that simple.

They are standing on the statement they are “one of the biggest 3d marketplaces online”. Then they should act like it!
They should respect when their customers do the “Hey, uhm, you sure it's OK to sell that”? and simply(and proudly) go “Yes! We have procured the licence for....” and be done with it. Ends all speculation, promotes further sales, and shows they are being very proactive in both respect for the companies and in their customers.

Do they?
No!
Do they freak out, and go ban happy when someone dares to ask?
YES.
That is a red flag. End of.

If you are going to be in the public as a marketplace, that is not the same as some wee, personal gallery site that is held by a fan.
That is stepping up to cover things like consumer rights and laws. To step up and accept there are going to be questions you should be prepared to answer. There are going to be things like “Hey you messed up on this advert” (when they do).
If they can not handle that, perhaps....they need to do abit of self reflecting!

As for DA...I have gone up and questioned their leniency on underage images MANY times. I have questioned and challenged their leniency on copyright infringement etc. I still have my account there and still question certain behaviours of theirs.
This is not a "Daz" specific issue.

The moderators at Daz allow their personal friendships, likes/dislikes to colour their decisions. They have an issue with anyone even daring to say the site may make a mistake. Not even out right, doing something wrong! But just a mistake!
That...shows a very shaking base on fairness and legality.

SydneyInPeril posted at 9:02 AM Thu, 8 August 2024 - #4488173

Torquinox posted at 7:40 PM Tue, 6 August 2024 - #4488114

So, there is a layer of reality that has been excluded from the conversation. Daz will say they "trained the AI with their own data" but that's only the top layer of data, the frosting. The underlying layer is made of stolen data, the same as every other AI generator out there. There are no ethical data training sets. They're all based on mass theft. That's because it takes billions of images and enormous volumes of text and enormous computing power to make the ai "smart enough" to do anything with the layer of frosting on top, the actual Daz data.

It all goes back to the Laion data sets. It's well documented that those are made of stolen data. Of course, you're not allowed to say "stolen data" on Daz site because it implies that some company did something wrong - Which of course all the AI companies did when they stole everything from everyone on the internet to train their AIs under the false auspices of research and fair use. Now the AI companies are making money off it and the AI industry has billions and billions of dollars being pumped into it. This apparently makes it all ok because we're all just little people dumb enough to share our work on the internet. So, it's ok to steal from us. And it is theft. When a company takes our work and incorporates it into their AI training data sets without our consent or compensation, that's theft. It was also ok to steal from famous artists and from Stephen King, too.

There are a few artists attempting lawsuits, but who knows how those will go? I do not expect much in the way of legal remedy. It is known that AIs have a habit of regurgitating parts of or entire works in its output. And it is known that earlier models are used as the starting point for later models, and it is pretty much impossible to remove the stolen works from the data set. So, once it's in there, it's in there.

That's the biggest frustration. There isn't a commitment to "delete it all and start over to placate the artists we screwed over", and anyone who thinks artists are "overpaid" are very much trying to jump on this and make it work - hell, anyone who thinks people are overpaid for anything are trying very very hard to jump on this and make it work.

It also shows how broken the entire copyright system is, since it pretty much is expecting the artists to go after the companies in court for enforcement, and otherwise is basically slanted in the direction of the biggest coffers. As long as the companies in question get to basically rake the internet, it takes away the biggest and best forms of advertisement from the artists because it's a serious risk to put anything on the internet because it will get fed into one of these engines without a lot of work to attempt to poison the input, and that only really works if enough artists agree to do the poisoning without so many doing it that all the engineers have to do is add a special case to inoculate against the poisoning. Granted, that was already a problem (just look at the art that gets downloaded and slapped on t-shirts!), but Generative Imagery Engines make the problem so much bigger because now an artist's style can be "emulated", and is much harder to point at in a court as a direct copyright violation.

I agree completely!

@Torquinox Very nice post in the issues with any generative AI model. They can not say it is trained purely on images they own. As if it did, it would start having issues with cannibalizing its own information. There is an amazing article on that that was posted to LinkedIn about that.

@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.

However:
Speaking your mind is not, what a forum is for. Not just the DAZ forums over there, but also here. Just got my post deleted.  

Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.

The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.

So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.

Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.

Bejaymac posted at 7:19 AM Sun, 11 August 2024 - #4488300

Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.

The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.

So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.

Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.

Can you tell me, if that is the principle, what the post:
"Some companies will allow it (under the ideal of fan art), some companies will nail you between the eyes.
(fair use is a defence, not a reason to use. Its suppose to be used in court to defend/explain why you have the right to use something)
It depends on the companies terms"

Was breaking the "No attack" policy? (keep in mind, this was in reply to posts above it, stating flat out that daz was breaking IP right)
BTW the topic of the thread had been in regards to the EL and to fan art.
NOTHING in that post, is wrong. It is factual and provable.
It did not attack anyone. It referred to the fact some companies like Nintendo will, very aggressively pursue almost anyone using their IP and some companies, don't care and will let their fan base make what ever.
INFACT....
Provably(as it was shown via the email chain that followed this)
There were posts in that 18 page thread that were far, far worse in stating flat out daz was wrong and those posts were allowed to stay.
(They finally, after releasing items clearly direct copies of movie and book characters and people were going "hold up, do you even have the permission to do this" they removed the entire thread.)

I have had posts removed that did flat out state "Hey you have made a mistake" and on those times, I held my hands up and had to keep my mouth shut, because I was shown the ToS point it violated.

But the above post....didnt break anything.
That, was when I decided I had enough of their “favouritism” and selective censorship and very selective use of the ToS.


And btw, the "No attack policy"? I made a post in reference to how their wording of certain "sales" was confusing. Particularly to those with things like dyscalculia. I then had to get posts taking the utter mick out of the fact "Oh Daz math is too hard"(an actual post quote).
I referenced in my post that being “inclusive” shouldn't just be products that show a character in a wheelchair but also take into account that some of their customer base is going to be ND(neurodivergent). And it had plenty of posts that made jokes about it.
So that "no attack policy" must be very selective. But it proves the point that the mods, base their exercise of ToS rules purely on personal likes and dislikes and not on what the TOS is actually saying.

Torquinox posted at 8:56 AM Sat, 10 August 2024 - #4488271

@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.

There are a few articles out on it. It's due to the fact that genAI gets its “materials” from the web. What is posted, to "learn" from. But as the web gets saturated with AI gen images and text, it starts “learning” from that genAI material. Causing issues with the outputs. It literally is “eating itself”. (I believe popular mechanic has an article on the text AI and it's starting to have issues in regard to this)

They have done studies that show that with a "limited training field" for GenAI, it gets…well…corrupted.
So if Daz is claiming its AI engine is only, trained on its own images, it should then start “eating itself” faster than one of the big web-wide genAI engines.

Bejaymac posted at 7:19 AM Sun, 11 August 2024 - #4488300

Main issue is that DAZ have a strict "no attacks" policy on the forums.

The company, it's staff, the forum staff, the content creaters and even the user base is covered by this.

So you can't heavilly crit them, slag them off, make them look bad, or even make them look stupid.

Before you ask, yep I've had thousands of posts deleted over there, and for all of the above, as a result I'm probably going to be one of a small group, who are "Pre Moderated" on a permanent basis.

That is in fact a good thing.

DAZ is desperate at this point to try to make ANY MONEY they can from this DEBACLE of a Genesis model that pushed more "the message" than actually having both meshes stay separate as they should've stayed.  Like you can't even use geografts well at all on gen 9. It is the most SCREWED UP model to date, and not only that, they are selling stuff from IPs in hoping they can get gullible people to buy them to make any sort of revenue.

I'm just waiting for the announcement at this point of Gen 10 and the Female and Male meshes going back to being separate and this gen being forgotten like the Dodo...

I don't see Genesis 9 as a "debacle" at all. Does it have issues? Yes, but so does any other figure out there. My main complaint about G9 is that they have now separated the high definition versions out from the base model.

And the bundle stacking and pricing is a great concern. The number of posts that people make about how cheaply they got stuff is pretty depressing. The more everyone looks for bargain basement prices, the less you will see content creators making things for figures, because it will no longer be worth the many hours that are put into making content.  "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a saying that comes to mind.

DarkElegance posted at 1:34 PM Sun, 11 August 2024 - #4488312

Torquinox posted at 8:56 AM Sat, 10 August 2024 - #4488271

@DarkElegance Thank you :) I should probably read that article.

There are a few articles out on it. It's due to the fact that genAI gets its “materials” from the web. What is posted, to "learn" from. But as the web gets saturated with AI gen images and text, it starts “learning” from that genAI material. Causing issues with the outputs. It literally is “eating itself”. (I believe popular mechanic has an article on the text AI and it's starting to have issues in regard to this)

They have done studies that show that with a "limited training field" for GenAI, it gets…well…corrupted.
So if Daz is claiming its AI engine is only, trained on its own images, it should then start “eating itself” faster than one of the big web-wide genAI engines.

Yes, I have read other articles about that. That's a problem for the AI companies - It's what they deserve. They deserve much worse, but when their generators collapse from eating too much of their own output, that will at least be a start.

Perhaps if those companies were more ethical in their approach to our work, I would feel more kindly toward them and their generated images. As it is, they ripped off all of us and patted themselves on the back for their brazen theft. And other big companies, grateful for the ill-gotten gain, sent those companies a lot of money - Not us, just the thieving AI companies that benefited from our work - As if being an artist isn't already hard enough.

gohanf22 posted at 7:23 AM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488391

DAZ is desperate at this point to try to make ANY MONEY they can from this DEBACLE of a Genesis model that pushed more "the message" than actually having both meshes stay separate as they should've stayed.  Like you can't even use geografts well at all on gen 9. It is the most SCREWED UP model to date, and not only that, they are selling stuff from IPs in hoping they can get gullible people to buy them to make any sort of revenue.

I'm just waiting for the announcement at this point of Gen 10 and the Female and Male meshes going back to being separate and this gen being forgotten like the Dodo...

Not sure why geografts would be a problem. The mesh is a perfectly regular grid, should be no problem to use that as an attachment point. Well-known creator RawArt states the G9 base is excellent for geografting. Also, generalized statements on revenue generated at any site are guesses at best - We have no idea what their revenues look like.

As far as pricing goes, we as customers have been conditioned by the sales run on the content sites to expect certain discounts - We know those are possible and the companies must be okay doing that or the discounts would not exist. I will observe, at Daz site, the best discounts are on DO items - Daz paid the artists for their work and can resell the work in perpetuity at whatever price Daz likes.

Here, the discounts used to be a lot better, and rPub, the company store, is actually one of the stingiest vendors in the marketplace. That's my opinion. Other vendors can do what they like, but it is unlikely anyone will pay $7 for a decade-old V4 outfit. It's crazy talk when compared to pricing at Daz store. Here, I only buy the items that I want most. THere is no impulse buying. And prices at any store are not comparable to pricing at 'Rotica, because the merch there is specialized - You want it or you don't. I've found RHub has some serious quality control problems and often surprisingly high prices - Buying anything there is a crap shoot. Thus, I buy very little there. So, that's how all that goes. And that does not say anything for the glob of people who won;t shop anywhere except the Daz site.

Torquinox posted at 12:30 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488398

As far as pricing goes, we as customers have been conditioned by the sales run on the content sites to expect certain discounts - We know those are possible and the companies must be okay doing that or the discounts would not exist. I will observe, at Daz site, the best discounts are on DO items - Daz paid the artists for their work and can resell the work in perpetuity at whatever price Daz likes.

Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money.  The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars.  When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then. 

It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you."  I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)

DeeceyArt posted at 12:47 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488400

Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money.  The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars.  When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then. 

It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you."  I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)

Thanks for sharing that. Sounds awful! You definitely need good pay to keep the motivation and to make it worthwhile to do the work. I'll keep that in mind.

Torquinox posted at 2:13 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488402

DeeceyArt posted at 12:47 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488400

Not all the time. I have the nasty habit of creating large sets (5 or more pieces). And I've invested in most of the G9 DAZ Original figures so that I can make sure that the clothing works well on every DO figure for G9. So there is a significant investment in time and money.  The first week of sales is usually the best week, and there were very deep discounts applied to a product I had in my own store (not a DO product) that sold multiple copies for under 2 dollars.  When 2-4 weeks of work results in under 200 dollars in sales, it really puts a damper on the passion of it all. I've cut back substantially on purchases and content creation since then. 

It's another form of "as if being an artist is already hard enough." That's what I meant by "biting the hand that feeds you."  I've been so discouraged by it all that the passion is just gone. It done flew the coop. And I'm probably not alone in feeling that way. 8-)

Thanks for sharing that. Sounds awful! You definitely need good pay to keep the motivation and to make it worthwhile to do the work. I'll keep that in mind.

It is what it is. It's a tough economy. There's no easy solution that would make everyone happy. So I waved the white flag and just make stuff for myself. 

DeeceyArt posted at 4:57 PM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488405

It is what it is. It's a tough economy. There's no easy solution that would make everyone happy. So I waved the white flag and just make stuff for myself. 

That's a healthy enough response. It's unfortunate. From what I can see, you do good work!

DeeceyArt posted at 11:02 AM Thu, 15 August 2024 - #4488395

I don't see Genesis 9 as a "debacle" at all. Does it have issues? Yes, but so does any other figure out there. My main complaint about G9 is that they have now separated the high definition versions out from the base model.

And the bundle stacking and pricing is a great concern. The number of posts that people make about how cheaply they got stuff is pretty depressing. The more everyone looks for bargain basement prices, the less you will see content creators making things for figures, because it will no longer be worth the many hours that are put into making content.  "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a saying that comes to mind.

While pricing is getting steep, the one thing I dont really do is complain about the price of good items.
I know how much a good computer can suck from the energy bill from rendering…I don't want to think of how much it costs just in electricity, to work on sculpting, building, texturing, morphing….a set/figure/item.
I know that when I am running photoshop, Dazstudio(or which ever program I am twiddling in) etc...there is a rather pronounce spike in my daily usage.
So for those creating the items we use as a matter of appreciation and convenience(yes, it is convenient for us to buy an outfit rather than each time making each item), it must cost quite abit to do make.
I may have to wait for a sale, but that is just the way of it at this point.
I though, I would rather give the money directly to the artists that makes the lovely sets though. Because I doubt they are getting 100% of what I pay daz for.

What an interesting thread. And old, too. I've been watching the DAZ Forum devolve for quite a while, but I didn't know other people saw it too.

They do have most of the best models around, although they may be getting too much "direction" from marketing these days.

Unfortunate.

Well Daz have just dropped a big bombshell over on their site. They just changed their entire sub structure, there is now Daz Base (which is free), Daz+ and Daz Premier. They have gone back to having two versions of Daz Studio, there will be Daz Studio free, and Daz Studio Premier an enhanced version only available via the Daz Premier subscription.

Also forgot it seems that there will be Premier sub 3D content, that by the sounds of it if you let your sub you lose access to that content as well.

And going by some of the comments on Daz's forums some are none to happy more so the changes in the subscription structure.

ghosty12 posted at 6:55 AM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490051

Well Daz have just dropped a big bombshell over on their site. They just changed their entire sub structure, there is now Daz Base (which is free), Daz+ and Daz Premier. They have gone back to having two versions of Daz Studio, there will be Daz Studio free, and Daz Studio Premier an enhanced version only available via the Daz Premier subscription.

Also forgot it seems that there will be Premier sub 3D content, that by the sounds of it if you let your sub you lose access to that content as well.

And going by some of the comments on Daz's forums some are none to happy more so the changes in the subscription structure.

So they make it so you can't get a refund on what you already paid, then ask you to pay MORE on top of it?
Instead of having already paid Daz+ members pay the difference, they just gauge you twice?

I'm posting here as I am sure that thread on Daz will either get the posts removed or vanish completely.

But I have been taking full page screenshots...because, we know that posts will go "poof!" for daring to suggest daz is not pure perfection.

I'm paid up till 2025...and now they want me to double, heck triple pay?

No warning. No loyalty to customers that have already paid, nothing.
Great way to show appreciation for those loyal members…even after being treated like poo by mods.

I still have support tickets a year old…and cant get support, a reply, a refund on the items that don't work...and now they want more money?

SMH

Reading through it again, I noticed something I had missed the first time.

"Unlock access to exclusive Premier Only content*
*Content is active as long as Subscription is active"

So content that you will have in your account but will lose access to if your subscription lapses. Presumably, that means it's content that can't be downloaded and backed-up and/or won't run in future versions of DS (free or Premier) without an active subscription. Which also probably means that you won't be able to use the Premier version of DS and any Premier content on a machine that doesn't have an internet connection, because it won't be able to dial home to verify that subscription. I do all of my work on a machine that is cut-off from the internet, so that's a total deal-breaker for me. And it sounds awfully like some of the arguments that were raised in objection to DAZ's attempt at content encryption several years ago. 

Ah HA. Rentware it is now.

So long as they don't disable what I'm using now, I don't much care what they do. I doubt they'll stop selling 3D models, generally. I rely on their Iray setup, it works well. I don't do animations because the render time is far too long. Let me keep Iray stills and I'll be OK. I think I'll go and see what they're up to.

I smelled a marketing witch at work there when they banned me from the forum a few years ago.

Yeah seems that Daz are doing an Adobe sort of thing. Where to get the better version of the program, you have to pay monthly for it. And can say in all the rumblings at the moment seem to be getting more and more.

Looking at the feature overview, DAZ Studio Premier seems to include a lot of features which considerably enhance the users' QOL.

It is unclear what happens when you unsubscribe from Premier. Does the software revert to DAZ Studio Standard or does it stop working altogether? What about the 3D content and scenes you processed in Premier? When you use the G8 to G9 conversion, for instance – will figures revert to G8? Will dforce simulations edited separately still work or will DAZ Studio Free not be able to open the files in the first place?

There also may be artists who would like the features of DAZ Studio Premier but don't need any of the additional offers, yet find themselves paying for them anyway.

Ugh.

From what I can gather and it is not much, so long as the person keeps their Premier sub going they keep all the benefits. Once the sub expires from what I can gather you lose all that enhanced functionality that is locked behind the Premier sub, as well as access to the Premier tier free content.

ghosty12 posted at 10:05 AM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490064

Yeah seems that Daz are doing an Adobe sort of thing. Where to get the better version of the program, you have to pay monthly for it. And can say in all the rumblings at the moment seem to be getting more and more.

I say no to rentware. I'll pay for iClone first. Ironically, DAZ going over to rentware makes iClone prices look less expensive. DAZ could easily have offered these enhanced features as optional plugins, but with rentware, you will pay for them over and over, many times. DAZ may find rentware less profitable than Adobe does, because DAZ isn't entrenched in the professional market. It is conceivable that DAZ could put itself out of business. If iClone hadn't failed in its attempt to incorporate Iray rendering, they'd be spanking DAZ right now.

DAZ is missing two very desirable features, and I didn't see them mentioned in their "premier" blurb. Both have been needed for years. One: Export to iClone. They brag about exporting to everyone else on Earth, but this one is conspicuously absent. Two: Scaling. They do a very poor job of scaling for the big screens we use today. Neither are on the horizon.

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LNA_ZPb2U

Rottenham posted at 2:20 PM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490076

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LNA_ZPb2U

I think this page does a better job of outlining v4.23.

We can go ahead working as is normal, and a few upgrades have been included. An "improved UI" is mentioned, but not shown or described. Paying money is optional at this time. The pay stuff is loosely described. v4.23 Public Build BETA is available for download at this time in the Install Manager. And there we are.

Sorry, but with Daz "customer service and support" in the state it is (non-existent) It's not worth the upgrade nor the price hike.

Just not worth it.

I have an eye package that according to the tech support thread, the issue I have, has been reported since 2018! Not fixed, Not usable.
I have VDB package that I provided screenshots of the issue (EVERYTHING in the scene comes out great, but the VDB looks like it was made in minecraft. Totally blocky and not usable) No reply, no fix, no anything. I can't use the packages.
I have repeatedly asked for help, nothing.
Ignored.

Now they want people to pay MORE for items? For “free” items that…really don't make up the difference?

I get my Daz+ when its on massive reduced sale. Otherwise, it's not worth it.

I understand some price increase due to "cost of living" but when I know the artists arent getting the lions share of it? Nah, Im not going to pay their staff to treat customers like crap.

DarkElegance posted at 4:36 PM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490079

Sorry, but with Daz "customer service and support" in the state it is (non-existent) It's not worth the upgrade nor the price hike.

.................................................

DAZ has two things. DAZ has the best catalog of 3D models around. And, DAZ has the best Iray rendering around. These things, hopefully, will not change. But marketing is running the place now, and marketing is about as non-tech as a discipline can get. I think we'll be able to work around their new scheme for now.

Meanwhile, never go near anything that requires a remote server (aka "Cloud"). It has long been known to be a security risk, in more ways than one. And if you're not a big Iray fan, like I am, iClone is not too bad.

Rottenham posted at 6:35 PM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490080

DarkElegance posted at 4:36 PM Mon, 7 October 2024 - #4490079

Sorry, but with Daz "customer service and support" in the state it is (non-existent) It's not worth the upgrade nor the price hike.

.................................................

DAZ has two things. DAZ has the best catalog of 3D models around. And, DAZ has the best Iray rendering around. These things, hopefully, will not change. But marketing is running the place now, and marketing is about as non-tech as a discipline can get. I think we'll be able to work around their new scheme for now.

Meanwhile, never go near anything that requires a remote server (aka "Cloud"). It has long been known to be a security risk, in more ways than one. And if you're not a big Iray fan, like I am, iClone is not too bad.

I have to admit, you are right on the iray part. The models, well, they are the cornerstone of the human figure models for the most part.
But to rely on that, to ignore valid support tickets...really takes the shine off things.

Let's face it. We lost tech when we lost the manufacturing industry. Not only are there no more tech books, there are no more bookstores.  "Push every button and see what happens" is the best school we have now. Forums like this were created so we can answer our own questions. We ourselves have become the QA Department.

I say, "A good craftsman works with the tools at hand."  :-)

All quite true. Sort of the Tail wagging the Dog. Nor am I have .0001% the talent that artists here and Daz have at making things from scratch. Nor do I really care to be. I'd much rather use the talent from others that are.

But that's happened in many other industry's recently too. It's all by committee now, or board of directors, et. al. There's no ONE voice any more for decisions. Isn't it much easier to just shuffle the problem/question off to someone else? Or just ignore it?

And at some point, that will come back & bite them in the tush. History bears it out.

Fortunately, there are alternatives as has been mentioned. Not always the most direct of course, but keep in mind, Daz doesn't innovate anything of it's own, except the scripts to use other code that's available if you understand that sort of thing. I don't. But, once outside of DS, generally much more control.

Rottenham posted at 1:40 AM Tue, 8 October 2024 - #4490087

Let's face it. We lost tech when we lost the manufacturing industry. Not only are there no more tech books, there are no more bookstores.  "Push every button and see what happens" is the best school we have now. Forums like this were created so we can answer our own questions. We ourselves have become the QA Department.

I say, "A good craftsman works with the tools at hand."  :-)

Ah but when asking your customer base to pay more...perhaps actually give support would be a good idea and a way to encourage them to...pay more.

DarkElegance posted at 1:46 AM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490107

Ah but when asking your customer base to pay more...perhaps actually give support would be a good idea and a way to encourage them to...pay more.

Aside from being inherently non-technical, the Marketing mind specializes in one-way communication. Like a stop sign. Here's what you get, and here's where you send the money. It is not realistic in any way to expect a dialog from them. Actually, Marketing is a close cousin of propaganda. Both use the half-truth liberally. Both are one-way.

Such "tech support" as is available today has been taken over by non-native speakers of English. Mumblers, and with minimal technical skills. You're better off without them. I discussed just this with one of my service providers. A decent support person costs about 50K a year. A mumbling ESL type makes about 5K a year. And, the Corporation needs a profit increase of 5% a year to remain viable. When all else fails, reducing the quality of the product or service is normal. This is the way it has always been done.

But there is a bright side, a "silver lining." The 30s, which we may be about to repeat, was the finest period for both fine art and industrial design in the Western world in the 20th century, although this is rarely acknowledged today.

My effort (why I like Iray):

I could be wrong, but now it looks like my DAZ account has been intentionally destroyed. This is the risk we take.

Rottenham posted at 7:01 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490131

I could be wrong, but now it looks like my DAZ account has been intentionally destroyed. This is the risk we take.

What do you mean?

DarkElegance posted at 7:52 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490132

Rottenham posted at 7:01 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490131

I could be wrong, but now it looks like my DAZ account has been intentionally destroyed. This is the risk we take.

What do you mean?

My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it.

Rottenham : "My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it."

Take a look at your account once you've logged back in. It looks like any DAZ+ members have been migrated over to DAZ Plus accounts, with its monthly billing. You don't want to get hit with any surprise charges on your credit card or bank account after the first of the month.

To avoid getting charged that way, cancel your Daz+ account. It will run until its expiration date and you won't get charged when it expires. After you cancel, buttons will appear in the membership management page of Daz account for Auto Renew on Daz+ with expiration date shown and Choose Plan for Premier. Choosing that plan with time remaining on your Daz+ kills that time remaining. So, maybe don't press anything until everything has expired.

There are/were some personalized offers for converting Daz+ time into x months of Premier, but that seemed like a really bad deal. I passed on it.

I've been thinking, at some time in the future, for specific sales and promos, I might pay the membership for one month of something and then cancel it a few days later. The membership would last for that one month period and expire. I'd pick my times carefully. Could maybe get over that way. Or maybe I'm just done with all that. Not sure yet. For now, I still have residual Daz+ time. Not sure it matters.

I'm put off by all this, so I'm not in any hurry to buy anything from Daz now. So much for this year's Daz+ sale. What a mess!

Katsuyaki posted at 8:45 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490135

Rottenham : "My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it."

Take a look at your account once you've logged back in. It looks like any DAZ+ members have been migrated over to DAZ Plus accounts, with its monthly billing. You don't want to get hit with any surprise charges on your credit card or bank account after the first of the month.

I think @Rottenham might be talking about the weird Google "We're sorry..." message that's been popping up randomly since last night.  I looked everywhere to find something about it, but couldn't find a thing.  Seems to be happening sporadically today, too.

And I've had the honor of having one of my very few comments over at their forums deleted.  It was in the thread speculating on whether DS was going to go rentware and I had chimed in with:

"Wanted to add my feelings of dislike for a future of renting the studio and its products.  I'm not keen at all on the idea, but there are signs that it may be creeping closer and I feel like it's important to speak out early with these kinds of things (like with the advent of Daz Connect.)  I've been a loyal customer for quite a long time now, but renting is a bridge too far for me.  Please do reconsider this 'Premier' stuff."

And overnight mine and several others' comments were wholesale deleted by a mod, claiming, "and this is why we do not allow speculation."  I guess the backlash is spooking someone in charge over yonder.  The mod deleted every comment mentioning Premier in a negative light, citing that "there are already multiple threads on the topic," yet interestingly decided to leave the few remarks that were positive/neutral.

Tiring.