I think the average person is becoming much more sophisticated in what they can do with Poser and what they want to do with Poser. The community has helped Poser grow to the point where it is almost so useful it is indispensable as a product for 3D shops.

Almost.

But they need to take that next step. Some things absolutely have to change. Poser is good... but it's abilities are not completely unique - what is currently unique is the cost of the props/items.

The reality is - I can use all this stuff in Max pretty much directly. it would be fairly easy (if somewhat expensive) to purchase a human for Max and map her to take Vicki textures. Set up the joints in Character studio and I am all set - event he morphs are possible. Poser is a nice application for experimentation - but if it continues to fall short when the time comes to use this stuff then they will find that the high end companies/communities respond and this whole market (in the high end) for Poser goes away.

1. As I was thinking about it... I realized that for this purpose there is really no good reason to upgrade Poser's rendering engine... I am never really going to use it for professional work anyway ... other things are more useful (even as a higher priced upgrade)...
2. The pro-pack plug-in for Max (and others) should give us access to Poser's character morph dials at the very least. This would let me essentially stay in Max much, much longer - I could animate the smile and blinks and so on without leaving that environment.
3. Much, much better clothing conformation handling. Even if it adds time - even if it ads a lot of time there is simply no reason to have to hand tweak and edit the clothing so much in Poser. The program should avoid poke-through and that would allow the clothing to fit much, much better. One of the reason so much clothing looks so ... bulky? now is to try and avoid this.
4. A "mesh smooth" system built into Poser. It would be a real problem to try and get everyone to move to higher rez poser figures all at once... so Poser itself should have the option to divide the mesh and smooth the vertices - this would allow us to use all the current geometry and morphs but get much better output.
5. Rework the join deformation system. You might need ti have it only work with characters built for it (additional joint params) but there is no reason for all the destruction ad crimping of the mesh when limbs bend. Posing figures is what poser DOES... and it doesn't actually do that good a job.  !Fix it!.
6. Daz needs to bring out higher rez versions of Vicki2 and Mike2. They should be able to wear the old cloths and so on but they need to be natively higher res - but LOOK like Vicki2 and Mike2... with all the morphs we are used to and the shape that already fits our clothing and textures.
7. Poser should let me export my poser scene as a boned, IK linked character studio figure. I could use Poser to dress up and morph the character, then pose her native in max using the superior animation tools of the higher end system.

In short, the frustrations with Poser (and I love the program) have had me looking at the options... and Poser isn;t really goign to make inroads int he bigger markets unless it grows up some more. The higher end (and not millions of dollars, Max/Char studio and a plug in or two) give us IK, bones, animatable hair that actually flexes correctly, collision detection (cloths and hair will NOT have poke through) and so on.

It IS possible to give Poser a serious power place in mid to high end shops (we are a low/mid range shop and even we need it to do more) and still keep it easy to use and not alienate the community.

soulhuntre, you read my mind :-) i agree easily with all but the seventh point (no, it's not point, that was german, ahhh... don't know any more). at least from the marketing point of view it would be self destructive for cl to make it work like this. who would go back to poser? who would work with poser if it would be possible to pose your meshes and to morph them within max? but maybe as a third party plug in? i don't even think that it should be hard to translate poser ik-system to character studio... what i'd really like to see is ability to pick single vertices (with the soft selection from max) in the next update. protruding body parts could be easily solved this way, without having to write the whole engine anew...

or how about pushing magnets as addition to pulling magnets?

Attached Link: http://clik.to/dtoybox

aleks: visit my site, navigate to the tutorials, and look for the magnet deformer tutorial for how to make pushing magnets. In a nutshell, dial negative magnet values on the object having a magnet applied to it. soulhuntre: this is a graphics app that fills more market niches than any other in its price range. If I had to choose between a few less features redundant to hi-end 3D apps and paying twice as much for those features, I'm in the former camp. If Poser had cost four hundred dollars I never would have considered purchasing it. re: subdivision of polys, higher-res DAZ figures. Polygon count is not everything. What do you realistically think you can achieve with Mike/Vicky with twice the number of polys, when you can already do wrinkles without bumpmap trickery? DAZ is serving a market that includes computers which already don't handle more than one Millennium figure in a scene well. The processor cost hi-poly figures incur in rendering will not appreciably improve your work. Look at renders of Latexa, Azura and Mobius' original P4F subdivision and show me a significant improvement. DinaV is another example; higher poly count than Vicky and little to show for it. It's kind of a 3D version of the resolution v. antialiasing argument from the mid-1980s. To me, the poly count thing starts to sound like guys comparing sports cars. A better rendering engine would actually be a more practical choice of improvements to the application, but when 4.0 was being developed it belonged to the same company as Bryce and Ray Dream, so it's understandable they left it out. Moreover they've gone on record to say that their aim is to keep user gratification requirements realistic, and anyone who's worked with Bryce knows ray tracing will test your patience. I agree with you completely about clothing conformation being a necessary feature in upcoming versions of Poser, but remember we only got conforming clothes with the current release, and we should keep our expectations realistic as to what Curious will implement if and when they get to that feature. We're more likely to see simple poly offset adjustments than complex fabric draping algorithms. And when Poser *does* have collision detection, Curious will have to figure out what to do about the default clothes made out of solid, closed objects (rebuild them open and make their UV maps backwards compatible, I'd hope).

I think what poser needs is a true bones/skin system. Perhaps the new system could automatically translate the information from the old JPs to generate this information. This would means essentially, that the skeletal structure of each figure would be more like what you see in higher-end packages, i.e. the elbow is an actual object, to which the forearm is atached and rotates around, with the actual mesh, the skin, stretching more realistically across the surface of it. The may mean, that future poser meshes could have a new skeleton built it, with an actual anatomical bone structure, thus allowing more realistic movement of skin and perhaps eventually, even muscles. Yes, I know that's difficult stuff to find even in the high-end stuff and to do those things it requires a lot of work, but a man can dream, can't he?

duane, the clothing problems you describe are accurate and will be addressed, because we will have a physically driven, dynamic draping system. And a kick-ass renderer. kupa

Oh my :)

I have to disagree with soulhuntre. Keep in mind that poser is not a max plug-in and many of the users have other 3d programs like lighwave and cinema 4d. I use poser as a stand alone program for a lot of my images as do alot of other users. I want better rendering in the program. I don't need higher resolution figures they are already very hi res and better than what is needed for professional realistic renderings. What is really neeeded is better lighting and shading for realism. The new xbox games are concentrating on this and they look great. It is easier and faster to fool the eye with realistically rendered low res models than to accurately model the image to realistic levels. What poser needs is the addition specularity. I do agree with you on the clothing and colistion detection though it would make things much easier. The other features you mention I feel should be plug-ins addons or Pro pack ugrade features.

Steve, that's GREAT to know. I'm really looking forward to it. Anything on Ray-Tracing, and a better lighting system? Real-time reflections, etc. ?

Finally! I won't have to render outside of Poser. You made this old Poser user happy today Steve :-) ScottA

current spec- true raytracer/renderman compliant. that's it for now...that may change, but there's the goal. kupa

"...we will have a physically driven, dynamic draping system." kupa, please forgive my ignorance: "we" as in poser community or "we" as in creative labs? :-) i hope the later! :o)))

I agree with you soulhuntre on most points, even tho I don't have any sophisicated software other than Photoshop. The one thing that I worry about and have always worried about with future upgrades of Poser, especially with the following it has (and I love it), is that the features as they become more and more high-end will make the price of the program more than what hobbyists can afford. I think a LOT of the Poser community and user base is, after all, just in it for the hobby. I spend enough just for things to us IN Poser as it is ;). Laurie

Quoting Kupa : "we will have a physically driven, dynamic draping system" ... thanks :) I remember some months ago people who thought it was unrealistic for me to ask such a thing... Well, Im really happy to see you're listening to us. Better engine... true reflections, reflectivity parameters, soft shadows ? Wow, that would be great :) Poser is now becoming a necessary tool for 3D artist, quite as much as Photoshop. And I love the " Renderman compliant " even if I'm affraid about the license price :) I sent an email with a lot of ideas... wish a lot will be included. Hey, Kupa, I got a lot more of them :) joelegecko P-S : BlackHearted=0 joe=2 sorry Black, just kidding ;)

Hi Folks! Thanx duane and kupa, for inserting some perspectiove into this discussion. As someone who's been a Poser user sinec it was first released by Fractal Design, I'm perfectly happy with the pace at which ther application is advancing. I've pointed this out before but it's worth noting again: Poser is not a high-end graphics program: it should not try to market itself as one and certainly not try to compete with other apps that are. Without Poser, I would still be drooling over the character animation potential of Electic Image and Lightwave, which have recently become financially within my reach. As an art student I studied life drawing for years, and none of the stuff I ever did then is as visually compelling as the stuff I can do with Poser. When I want to do high end stuff I'll use a high-end app. Let's keep Poser fun--and affordable. This isn't a criticism, soulh--just my 2/100 of a dollar. That all being said--it WOULD be nice to have marquee rendering and true reflections!! Peter (Dr Zik)

kupa: Thanks for finally letting the collision detection cat out of the bag. Larry Weinberg hush-hushed its development to me in an email over a YEAR ago (9/29/00), and it's been no fun keeping my mouth shut about it. Now, about this physically interactive hologram projection feature he promised in the 8.0 release for Linux...

Good news on the renderer. It will make Poser 5 more attractive to newbies (and old-timers) who may not want to have to export scenes to Max or Bryce or Carrara to get effects like

• depth-of-field alpha channel
• fog/haze
• ray-tracing
• true reflection and refraction
• better shadow handling
• et. al.

"re: subdivision of polys, higher-res DAZ figures. Polygon count is not everything. What do you realistically think you can achieve with Mike/Vicky with twice the number of polys, when you can already do wrinkles without bumpmap trickery? DAZ is serving a market that includes computers which already don't handle more than one Millennium figure in a scene well."

Of course polycount isn't everything. I am NOT the biggest fane of high counts just 'cause ... in face that is one of the issues I have with Dina. The reality is, however, that unless Poser goes patch based then polycount WILL matter in some places, for some things.

It doesn't take much looking to find places where Vicky needs more poly's. Her chin, the curve on the underside of her breasts. her earlobes. Her  joints are a good example. All over her are places that are more angular in close up than they need to be. Can Vicky be used professionally? Sure. I do use her that way - but I am constantly working to hide flaws in her mesh that could be alleviated with more poly's in the right places.

The figures can be just that, separate figures. Those people who don't have the hardware to handle them can simply not buy them or use them. Judging from the popularity of Dina - who has a higher polycount than she needs and much higher than it would take to upgrade Vicky there is the ability out there to use them.

"already very hi res and better than what is needed for professional realistic renderings"

Sometimes. They hold their own from a distance if your careful about the lighting - but let's not kid ourselves... under demanding render conditions they fall apart and look blocky unless you are very careful.

"duane,

the clothing problems you describe are accurate and will be addressed, because we will have a physically driven, dynamic draping system. And a kick-ass renderer.

kupa "

This is interesting, maybe someday we'll have some clue about when this is going to happen :) No offense - but the idea of being happy over a vague rumor of some distant future nirvana reminds me too much of my Amiga days.

"This isn't a criticism, soulh--just my 2/100 of a dollar"

No problem, I am not insulted. I develop software professionally too - and most of the worries about cost are only partially founded. Poser can be tiered like so many other programs, let those of us that need the features pay for them.

Yes, poser is a low end program - or it was. With the introduction of the Pro pack and the plug ins to host poser in other places Poser has thrown it's hat ina  whole different arena. Far from being afraid of that, the Poser community should embrace it. Having a Pro version of Poser that sold for 1500$ would do a LOT to help fund new features in the "Home" version.

Well, well, well!
It looks like we have all been given our first piece of hard information about what Poser 5 is going to include.

Thanks Steve. It reassuring to know that the most constant wishlist request, that for a kick-ass rendering system, will be addressed.

Soulhuntre makes some interesting points but forgets that the single biggest cohort in the Poser customer base is that of people that do not own, use or have access to Max, Lightwave, Maya or any of the other high-end tools and are probably unlikely to go that route.

The most common use for Poser is for still or single frame artwork. Animation has always been a minority interest in the Poser customer base (my opinion).

Now while it is nice to expand the customer base (and make more money) no company should ever lose sight of where its' core revenues come from and are likely to continue to come from.

It was the almost unheard-of loyalty of the Poser customers, the unique and amazing nature of the Poser community - spread among the various Poser web sites - and the sheer drive and innovation of many of its members with their discoveries and experiments in the areas of joint control morphs, transparency mapping etc. that helped to sustain and grow interest in the product during the dark days after Metacreations.

That customer base and its wishes should always be paramount in the product development and I believe CL understands this very well and indeed appears to be responding to this. Giving ordinary users the ability to produce top class renders will deepen and sustain the customer base and product loyalty.

Targeting high-end software users can be easily achieved through plug-ins as CL has already demonstrated with the Pro Pack. This is a very fine business model that allows the company to gradually grow a high-end customer base without making the ordinary customers pay for it or alienating them. Long may it continue.

Now I want more insider tips, come on Steve lower the guard a bit and tease us a little more. :0)

Regards
STORM

ummm... but will we have the option of doing the old type of poser render? you know, the fast kind? i mean.... i dont consider myself a 'poser purist' or anything, but if i want ray tracing, i can get that in other apps. sometimes i just want fast poser renders. all my figurative works are poser renders. heck, i tried some of them in vue, and i could NOT get the 'real' lighting to do what i wanted as fast and easy as i could with the cheap, much-maligned poser lights and cameras. i do think they need some better shadow setup.... i can never get unjaggy shadows, no matter what i set the map size to :/ and have you see what happens with kozaburo's wave hair when you turn the shadow map size up?? argh. so, anyhow.... i'd miss the fast poser rendering :/ will it be an option at least!?

Larry and I were discussing today how people still really need the existing Poser renderer... we like it forfast rendering too... can't imagine it going away. Dynamic cloth timeline? great work is being done now, one of the best cloth systems I've ever seen, for the next rev of Poser. kupa

Go on steve. Don't stop now........... :-> !!!!!!

Hmmm...you've got my interest ;) Laurie

I am easy to please. I love Poser (with all its imperfections). That you are even considering making it better is well, frankly, too wonderful to contemplate. I don't want Poser as a plugin for some other ap. I don't know that there is anything wrong with the way Poser renders now. I do sometimes have difficulty figuring out the lights, making the clothes and hair stay on or not show through, getting the dials to respond, or the computer to respond, despite the fact I have over a gig of ram. These are minor in comparison to the fact that for the first time in my life I am able to do art work of a nature that I had only dreamed possible. For that alone I thank you. Now you want to make it better! G Yeah, I may be living in a vacuum but I don't see where the manufactors of these other 3D aps are hobnobbing with the users, asking for feedback, and taking the flack that comes along with a hands on and personal interest. I think the folks at Curious Lab are awesome!

"Soulhuntre makes some interesting points but forgets that the single biggest cohort in the Poser customer base is that of people that do not own, use or have access to Max, Lightwave, Maya or any of the other high-end tools and are probably unlikely to go that route."

Actually, my most important issues would be equally or more usable by those who were using Poser only :)

• Real collision detection for clothing
• Better joint bending
• Optional automatic mesh smoothing for renders
• Better resolution on the models from Daz (or anyone else - as long as it can wear Vicki's clothing/textures and looks as good as V2)

It is always true that a loyal fan base will resist change to a system... this is to be expected. But it is hard to argue that the above is a bad thing for poser in any way.

"The most common use for Poser is for still or single frame artwork. Animation has always been a minority interest in the Poser customer base (my opinion)."

With good reason. Without a reasonable clothing/joint system the animation abilities of Poser are basically impossible to use for large scale work.

"Now while it is nice to expand the customer base (and make more money) no company should ever lose sight of where its' core revenues come from and are likely to continue to come from."

The current Poser user base is not the best source of revenue. A higher priced professionals version that did NOT limit the lower end customers usage would add significant $$$ to curious labs cash flow. It would also do a lot to gain respect for poser int he 3D world at large and significantly expand the market for the items sold by our poser community vendors.

This cannot be a bad thing.

"Targeting high-end software users can be easily achieved through plug-ins as CL has already demonstrated with the Pro Pack. This is a very fine business model that allows the company to gradually grow a high-end customer base without making the ordinary customers pay for it or alienating them. Long may it continue."

Obviously it would be best is users didn't have to "outgrow" poser. If they could learn it to start and keep it with them when they go pro. The 3D animation/modeling field is the fastest growing technology sector around these days - it will be THE hot technology of the next 10 years. Imagine the revenue stream Poser could get as being the "must have" beginners application for that time period?

It can happen - but only if they really get their act together.

BTW - I did say I don't mind if this stuff was an add on... but if it isn't there then a lot of young up and coming artists will start to realize they are better off simply starting to work in Max or Lightwave. Especially as there are  good packages for free that allow avatar building.

The current plug-ins are a good start - but they also show a lot fot he weaknesses in Poser right now - if your going to put your hat into the high end ring (and the pro pack did) then you better be prepared to become high end.

"Now I want more insider tips, come on Steve lower the guard a bit and tease us a little more. :0)"

Teaser tips are nice - but they don't really help me much until they have some numbers and dates behind them. "Poser 5 is coming in the distant future and it will be cool" is not much help :) I knew that.

"Dynamic cloth timeline? great work is being done now, one of the best cloth systems I've ever seen, for the next rev of Poser."

This year? Next year? Next decade? Any clue at all? I Like Poser, it will be nice if we can stay with it... but in order to make those choices we need to know what's up.

Soulhuntre, next millenium, if you keep putting up these impossibly long posts that take me away from what I need to do tonight... ...no more for now, too much said already. bye for now click static buzzzzzzzzzzzzz ;-)

Funny when I come to think of it... High-end software users falling back on a "low-end" 3D program to get to accomplish those things the high-end progs dont seem to provide ways for. Even when your complaints about Poser are just, shouldnt you be complaining with the high-end manufacturers to add the features you need, esp. when you consider the high-end prices. Of course, the current Poser version needs enhancements, it has enough flaws that need to be corrected, and yes, new gadgets are welcomed, but in the current discussion I sense a bit of Ferrari owners complaining about their Ford shopping car. Ford has to develop a new, Ferrari alike, model at a Ford price. Obviously Ford cant, at least, not without charging a Ferrari price and if they did that, nobody would buy the car as Ferrari has the name, why buy a clone when you can have the real deal at the same price? I think its not very realistic and personally I am quite happy with the current version, but Im surely willing to pay a $100 more for a new version, but thats about it. I dont need an advanced animation system or all those sophisticated gadgets a 3DSMAX provides. I am happy with my Ford, just looking forward to see their latest model.... Maxx :-)

Yes Maxx...my thoughts exactly. I hate to see Poser go the way of some other programs that were perfectly affordable for hobbyists but now are out of reach or at least that don't justify the price increase. There is a huge aftermarket for Poser-related products and even tho CL doesn't benefit from them directly, they do indirectly from more sales of Poser I'm sure. Laurie

I would love a Ferrari but I can't afford one. Anymore than I, or most of the users of these forums, could afford to shell out $1000 or more for a host of high-end features.

Every development costs money. If CL are willing to give us all of what you want for a $200-$300 price I am with you 110% soulhuntre.

But I somehow doubt it is all going to happen for that amount of money. In the meantime I will go back to hopes that are feasible, like a better library structure and a few other small, but important improvements.

It does strike me that the first of the great car manufacturers was not Ferrari, but Ford with its Model T and over the century they have made far more cash than Ferrari!

Night everyone
STORM

Sigh, in my local currency $300 is fl.720, about a quarter of an average monthly income. Cant they just sell it for say, $50? I promis Ill be a good boy, honest... Maxx :-)

"Even when your complaints about Poser are just, shouldnt you be complaining with the high-end manufacturers to add the features you need, esp. when you consider the high-end prices."

Umm... there are no features missing from the high end systems with one, and only one, exception. Price, not of the software... of the meshes.

Poser is nice, but there is nothing unique about it's abilities - the morphs are completely do-able and the posing system is fairly simple. There are some minor benefits to the UI for simplicity sake but this is not about Poser supplying anything Max doesn't.

What makes Poser useful right now is the vendors. The ability to buy the textures, clothing and characters. The fact that they are in Poser format is (to me) a side effect.

"I dont need an advanced animation system or all those sophisticated gadgets a 3DSMAX provides."

Well I would say that just about everyone who works with Poser would agree that the clothing system needs an overhaul and the joint deformation problems are an issue. Hell, these get in the way of Posers theoretical primary function - to be able to pose models. Skip the advanced stuff - how about just making what is there work better?

"It does strike me that the first of the great car manufacturers was not Ferrari, but Ford with its Model T and over the century they have made far more cash than Ferrari!"

And eventually the Model T gave way to a more modern, but still low end, vehicle. As the market improves what customers come to expect even from "low end" systems is bound to change.

"discussion I sense a bit of Ferrari owners complaining about their Ford shopping car."

And that is perfectly reasonable when the problem is not that the Ford isn't the Ferrari - but that it needs to move on if it is going to be a decent Ford.

Even if the Ford is your second car after a while you have the right to ask for air bags and FM radio :)

Look, this isn't about slamming CL, or insulting them so they won't make Poser anymore. This isn't about turning Poser into Max.

This is about not being afraid or feeling guilty about pointing out that while Poser is a great program... there are some glaring problems that desperately need to be patched.

That's all.

I am using Poser for animation and here the poly count issue is critical - the p4 is useless for modelling real emotions, because there are no polys where the wrinkles have to be, the polys on vickies face on the other hand go sometimes in the wrong direction, so you can not model bulges for some muscle movements correctly. If you wann a do close ups with realistic emotions during speaking for instance, the polycount in vickes face have to doubled at least in some places of the face - why not making more polys where they really count. ? So a system where I can change polycounts would be usefull, many for closeups a few for distant renderings in order to speed up the rendering process. Karl

heyas; one thing that hasnt been addressed here, is scaling. individual body part scaling needs a serious overhaul. you know what i mean. you can morph the dog head into a basset, you can scale the legs down real short... but it poses like a do-- er, really badly! if you try to scale the horse's chest on the x-axis.... have you ever seen what that DOES? you get a broken horse. something as useful and simple as changing the length of limbs should not be this nasty and difficult to do. when i made the frog arms longer and thinner to create poison arrow tree frogs.... the things just cant pose! the finger bits go flying one way, the hand breaks, the elbow collapses.... anyway, beefing up the joint editing for scaling might take care of this. scaling has to affect children and their joint center locations, and things just need to go more smoothly. it would certainly eliminate the need for a lot of morphs (i tend to use morphs to scale complicated sets of things), and even the need to create derivative meshes. if you want the shrunken-leg dog (or any 9-lives cat animal) to pose right, you basically have to export the new geometry and make new jps for it. if this necessity were eliminated, figures would become much more versatile.

maybe we need an different approach to poser altogether. that it has a basic structure, more or less like it is now (with all due improvements of course, like bloodsong and soulhuntre to some extent wrote), and a plug-in system that enables users who have money or interest in pro functions to buy them as they like/need them. for example a new raytracer: i don't need it, i won't buy it. but i can still use poser rendering engine. or direct vertices control as plug-in. or bone system, or face expressions system, or batch rendering, or... you name it. there are lots of talented guy who could make some really nifty stuff.

Id really welcome a plug-in approach. With proper and extensive specifications available to software developers (such as me) and a quality system around it supervised by C/L and/or Renderosity then Poser could become quite extensive at minimal cost. A lot of good developers write little gems for fun in their spare time. Why not enable them to hook into Poser... BTW, in another thread kupa suggested that Poser 5.0 has some great new stuff, seems odd to start asking users for suggestions at this stage. A bit late to change course. Trying to give us a sense of involvement? Nevertheless, I sure am anxious to see what theyve come up with. Maxx :-)

who's kupa, and how does he knows that?

Maxx, The Python interface in Pro Pack is the most accessable API for hooking into Poser that we could release to the public at this point. We're seeing a number of resourceful commercial and university based developers and researchers using the interface for their projects; we even use it internally to develop and test some functionality. It's unfortunately been under-utilized by the community here. Even with P5 development underway it's good to get feedback. kupa

aleks, I'm kupa. :-) Steve Cooper President, Curious Labs

"It's unfortunately been under-utilized by the community here." Well, for me I have several Python scripts in mind ... but the API is pretty limited (youc an't delete lights for an example) so for somethings it is awesome... for others there is a little more problem :)

ah. that's why! ;-) thanks, for info, steve.

For anyone wanting to understand "The President's" philosophy, or perhaps perspective as regards 3D and the Poser Market, read the brand new issue of 3D World (issue 19 - just got it) where "Kupa" gives a personal view on Poser and 3D. (power to the people - page 66).
Nice one Steve!
;0)
Regards
STORM