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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Dec 27 2:49 pm)
Subject: Personal grumble...feel free to reply....
A Piece of art is not finished until the artist says it is. Therefore, it may go through any number of processes and mediums until it is completed. 3D Rendering often leaves an image too sharp, for example. What you end up with is hyper-realism that is so real it actually causes disbelief or allows the flaws of the program to shine through in great contrast. Therefore, grain, noise, blur...these three elements alone, used sparingly, go a long way in helping achieve realism by taking away realism, if you get my drift. Photoshop or other programs like it do this efficiently. Furthermore, Poser has the worst rendering engine. Why not take it into a better process to get things like reflections and specularity? Not to mention the ability to generate your own terrain or other surroundings quickly and easily. In the end, what counts is what hangs in the gallery, on the fridge, or above the mantel. There is no reason at all to limit yourself to one program if you have choices. -WTB
I have mixed feelings about this. Certainly still images can gain from post work, but sometimes similar effects could have been obtained without the post work if the artist had planned more carefully in Poser. However, Poser's rendering engine is NOT the best, as stated above. In addition, it seems arbitrary to draw lines about which process(es) are "fair" and which aren't. My dislike of post work arises from my seeing Poser as primarily an ANIMATION tool. (I'm disappointed that most people use the program only for still images.) Once you start animating, extensive post becomes impractical. Getting the best possible results in Poser saves airbrushing several hundreds of frames of animation.
I am no purist as far as programs or even paint. My theory goes for all of my art. Whatever it takes to get the job done and done well. Now if it was a poser only contest, challenge or something then I could understand it but otherwise I see it as fair game to use whatever. That is just my 2 cents. Later
is there a "pure poser" virus going round? :-) what does poser do? bend meshes that were made in maya, textured with bitmaps made in numerous different 2d-apps, with props that were made in numerous different 3d-apps, over background made in bryce/vue/world builder and then render it rather poorly. no big deal is it?
If you use only Poser for your artwork, you are limiting yourself severely in what ou can accomplish, don't get me wrong Poser is amazing for what it does, I know firsthand how hard it is to bone and constrain a human body. But the render engine although improved is IMHO nowhere near professionnal quality. If you want to take it a step further you have to have other apps, a 3d app for modelling and rendering and an image editing program. Even 3d animation gets heavily post processed. Most elements in a 3d animation are rendered individually in layers and then composited afterwards for more control on lighting etc....
Well Cujo,
It seems that we 'Bastards' aren't wanted anywhere!
Here are some statements from the rules posted by the moderator of the Lightwave forum:
"I don't care if it is rendered in Lightwave or not. If you have a poser model as the focal point or the majority of your image...then that image is being moved...That is is the law gentlmen and ladies."
It's also been pointed out that "mixed media" is for images that are comprised of Photography, mixed with 3D, mixed with paintings, etc., not just different 3D programs.
I can understand how all parties might feel the way they do.. but while I think that your 'rant' is constructive.. and inspires good debate.. I think a moderator condemning Poser users, at a site like this, when the possibilities are just being explored, is deplorable.
I have told him so and apparently, so has the management.. because he has resigned. However, instead of bowing out gracefully, and letting the forum recover (the Cinema forum works great with no moderator), this guy is still there, threatening to remove posts that aren't 'constructive' (translation: don't agree with him)
I'm not sure what the solution to these issues is.. but I suppose it will involve tolerance.. and not little dudes who are on power trips.
There are those who work very hard to create an image that is direct from poser, or direct from Bryce, no post work...some are successful, some are not. The problem I faced when learning to do things in poser was that there just was a limited amount of things I could have at hand to create a scene. My computer would not let me load up a poser scene or a bryce scene without slowing to a crawl. On the other hand, I could render in parts and combine different items to fill in the scene. It is really a work around that results in some post work on an image. I don't have a lot of plant models so I use 2d programs to fill in with nozzles or tubes. I do not have the ability to create skys in poser so I create them as backdrop images... The programs, and all of them, are tools. No different than a specific brush. The key is to get what YOU want out of the program you are using. If you want to create a pure Poser image....do so. I spent many hours just rendering a face, moving the lights, moving the camera, moving the figure, changing textures...all to develop a feel for the program. What it can do and what it did better than any other program. If you think about it, to change programs requires even more planning and work. One must consider that a pure poser image would not allow even background images...no projection onto squares....Poser is limited. Bryce steps in and does more, it allows more props, terrains, skys etc. but then when is Bryce a poser image...when a poser figure is put in, or when a bryce image is used for the backdrop. the key is to use your artistic vision. I think sometimes we are thinking that if there are not a number of comments our work is not good...that is far from true. But with so many images we have to learn to catch the eye of the potential "commentor" to be a bit different from any thing else out there. I see quite a few images which are what I would call flat, they lack a certain depth of character, a certain depth of lighting, or even a personality....there can be improvements in pose, in lighting, in texture work. In my view you still have to master poser to get even a good result with post work.
Well Said by welcomsite and Lorraine.... I agree that each program is merely a tool and if the majority of it is poser then it deserves to be in the poser area... but I too like the challenge in getting the most outta Poser that I can (which isn't much right now...LOL) But I see both sides of the fence... and heaven forbid we ever start turning our backs on one another and start casting one another out because "she uses this" or "he uses that" Cujo
I can see your point though Cujo..
It really is a competition, to create an image that people admire.. and most hobbyists can't afford to plop down $2000 or so, just so they can render brighter images.. and this places them at a disadvantage to those that have the high end programs.
Maybe the solution is to have a new forum for "Combined Applications", as pnevai suggested in the Lightwave forum?
Of course, as he also points out, this wouldn't merely encompass Lightwave rendering and postwork, if you used any textures created out of poser, or any props, etc.. then you would also be 'ineligible' for the Poser forum.
It's a tricky situation.. and I'm glad you brought it up.
wgreenlee1 ... that's some funny shit!
( 'evildoers' is an inherently funny phrase, despite the severity of the situation )
Art is an expression of one's self. When did everyone lose sight of that? And why not "art for art's sake"? I wouldn't use just a hammer to build a whole house. Name a movie now days that doesn't use green screens to get stuff in it IN POST. There is many a professional 3D artist that do their finals in many different programs (OH! INCLUDING 2D programs folks...IMAGINE!). Yeah, there are lots of Poser images floating around out there that have postwork done to them. I myself am a big believer in postwork and do postwork 9 times out of 10. My questions is, "Why does everyone want to make a big deal outta this????". You purist folks are just gonna ruin it for everybody else. Maybe what the internet needs is a "Use More Than One Program To Make Your Art" artist community. Sheesh!! Laurie
So basicallyPoser would be then a forum with figures with no textures and no props? And by the same token you could disallow anything that wasn't made by you so no Daz stuff, no Vicki or Michael, no stuff from the store etc. Seems like you could go on making all kinds of rules that would exclude anyone from posting anything anywhere. What gallery I put the my art in is dependant on what I am showcasing. If it is just a guy in a generic scene that happens to be Bryce I put it in Poser mostly if the guy is the focus. The opposite is true if I pop the same guy into a complex scene with multiple bryce props and other things. I mean this exclusional thing is getting a bit silly to me. I mean you might as well put it into a category of how much you spend. The same guy that buys Vicki2 and all the props and hair and all with no post work will blow most people out of the water that just use the stock poser person and the stock hair with no post work. Not meaning to flame or anything but I say let whatever it takes make a good picture and go with primarily what the focus is in the pic. Just my two cents. Later
Ok... LaurieA and Ghost.... ....Chill..... No one is talking about excluding anyone..... I certainly am not advocating that at all... Perhaps you missed completely what I said above: "and heaven forbid we ever start turning our backs on one another and start casting one another out because "she uses this" or "he uses that" " I am not trying to segrate anyone here... I am meerly trying to get the community's view on a personal question of my own.... NOTHING MORE.... Cujo
And I was just stating my opinion S Nothing to chill about. Just think there is room for everything without saying people can't post that in one gallery because they used something else or people should be yelled at for posting things in the poser gllery when it has bryce in it and is says underneath the image "poser and bryce." I have seen that before. And I was just showing my view S And I saw it but was just replying to later stuff. I was just showing the absurdity of what could be done. Not because of what you said or anything but once you start impossing restrictions on art process then where is the line going to be drawn. One of the biggest points made above was that poser can't compete with pricey programs ... True. I was jsut taking that statement further. Like I said I like to see good art, however it is done. Most times I see things with poser and postwork it will say "Poser, photoshop" or something like that. Not all but a good bit from what I see. Thats all S
I started this 3d/2d thing from a point of zero knowledge of any programs, slowly I learned what could be done through this forum and through hours of trying to copy the techniques or discover the techniqes I saw here. I personally liked the images that included post work. They appeared to be closer to "traditional" artwork, and looked less stark, less mechanically contrived. Post work should complement the 3d elements and the 3d elements should integrate well into the whole final result. This is not an easy thing, no siree...those 3d models are cranky, that post work can turn a perfectly good poser render to crap. But bluring the torn mesh elbows and knees was a necessary post work around. I also want to point out that poser models have changed. We have been challenged to create realistic, we have been challanged to create "painterly" we have been challanged to create as many different end results as possible. We, each of us. Are challanged to make the best image. The catagory-itis that seems to inflict some of us appears to be related to a certain feeling of isolation that occurs when our art does not "ring the bell" so to speak and generate lots of comments or high scores. At some point in each artists development I believe they reach a crisis point, they question whether or not they can ever create something that another person would like. It is at that point the artist struggles with the reason they create in the first place. I can only speak about myself, I decided that I wanted to create to satisfy my own vision. I had to decide at that point that the images would be made to satisfy that vision first, and quite frankly I have yet to have a worthy image yet. I do however notice that as I struggle with my work, some images take more post work than others. Feathers, hair, some details to the clothing, all require post work due to the inherent limitations of the programs. What is happening though is that there are others out there who are working on perfecting and expanding these areas... I think we should look at what we can do to share our techniques, whether that is post work or pure poser....the more we all learn different tools the more variety we can put into our art.... just because we know how to paint with oils does not mean our charcoal sketches are the only pure artform....as artists we capitalize on all kinds of materials to create...computer images are no different.... It is a mix and match world......what we have with all these programs is a box of crayons, a touch of poser, a dab of bryce and fx are at our fingertips....create ...create...!
Well, I have two "favorites" who post to the Poser gallery. Both of them do alot of postwork. I generally render in Bryce, even though my normal posts are of couples...focal point the characters. I do no postwork...I do not have the time. And, I have a question for you all....Would any of you, in your right mind paint a MURAL in acrylics??? We are talking a big one, too. Just a problem that I incurred in my neverending-work-day. (People are bidding to do the mural in the building where my office is. Most of them are submitting a paper portfolio. Well, one of the "contenders" came in, and, starting painting the area where the mural she is bidding on, is supposed to be. This was not authorized. She claims this is her "portfolio". She is gonna have to repaint said wall back to the same old color...AND...SHE....gasp...gasp...gasp...is using acrylics for the whole thing, it's huge. Geeze, y'all think you have troubles. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!
Cujo31: I don't need to chill...I'm not upset. I just fail to understand people sometimes :). Here is my feelings about "purism" (for want of a better term). I just want to see artwork. No matter what program or medium has been used. Period. I don't care what gallery it's in, because I just want to see it. If my own posted artwork gets no comments I don't care either. Even if someone doesn't comment, maybe they got some enjoyment, or better yet, inspiration from it. Ooos and ahhhss over my artwork is not what I'm here for. I'm here for the help and inspiration. And there are artists here who DO inspire me, and they (most of them) just happen to do a lot of postwork. Would anyone here disagree that Wil Kramer's work is not astounding? And Andy Simmons? And Picky? There are many, many others and I could go on and on. I don't know of one who DOESN'T do postwork. And I think that this whole "purist" thing was started by folks who are jealous that they can't do the same. I strive to increase my skills in postwork personally. I get tired of seeing the same old clothing or hairdos. I'd like to be able to paint them myself so that they are unique. If folks want to do their entire image in one program, that's fine. I'm not going to look down on your for it, but I'm not going to look up to you either. If you want to do post, fine again. It should be left up to the artist to do what he or she wants, even as far as to what gallery they post it in. If folks want to push the gallery issue, make one big gallery and the poster can be responsible for telling what programs were used. I always try to use the programs I use to their fullest abilities (or mine). But I'm not going to tie one hand behind my back by limiting myself :). Laurie
Here Here!!! I whole heartedly have to agree with Lorriane... well said... very well said... Please... each and everyone of you... please know that I am not trying to single any one out...and certainly NOT offend anyone... Perhaps I am just at the crossroad Lorraine spoke of... and need a little guidance... a kind word... Thanks so much for your thoughts and ideas... It continues to remind me why I come back to this site and this community so much... You are a wonderful bunch of ARTISTS and friends... every single one of ya... Cujo
Hehehe...postwork is most definitely allowed ;). I think the question is "where does it belong" in the artistic scheme of things. Are you "purist" or "postworkist" (sorry ;)). They are the 2 sides of the issue :). Or I guess debate is what it really is :P. Some very strong opinions on both sides I must say...LOL. Laurie
Personally I think everyone that does post should for the sake of the exercise create an image or two without post, and those who dont do post work should, for the sake of the exercise do their image with post... it is the learning exercise that is part of the process of art. the point is to create...to experiment and to share our artwork...if you say I tried to do this with no post or I tried to do post work on my image which I prefer to do without post, is that not an artist's statement, isn't that all you need? Art is in the doing, the final result and what other people think of it, well that is icing on the cake,....it is the act of creating...the technique and the fact that we can transform those grumpy pixels or cranky mesh objects into an image that satisfies our inner vision... ...artistic styles come about because the artists create, an artist does not wake up one day and say I wish to create the style of minimalism....the artist says I wish to do something different, something that I envisioned...I want to apply the tools in a different way......because other people then look and say hey...I likes that...what do you call that....we get around to a style...the artist is consumed by the vision and the process of creating...... We have many artists who share their artwork, I love to look at all the work... I am often inspired by the unique vision of one artist or the other, but I am grateful for this place in cyberspace where we can all share...
Reading all these replies in order I get the impression that this conversation is drifting away from the original point. So many people seem to be posing (so to speak) this as a fight between the Yes Posters and the No Posters. I wonder if the heart of Cujo's original question isn't contained in his comment that he's going through one of those "artistic crises" that it seems we all must endure. I won't presume to microanalyze Cujo, but I can say from my own experience that sometimes it seems the direction I'm going, the things that thrill me when I complete them, are the opposite of what everyone else is doing / liking. It's then I wonder if I'm missing the boat somewhere. For in truth 99 out of a hundred artists DO produce and exhibit work for the applause as well as for their inner satisfaction. Those few who don't feel the need for public approval generally keep their work to themselves. They wouldn't get anything from posting it for free on the Internet for millions to see. This isn't a bad thing. It's simply fact. Every artist desires (needs?) a different proportion of of each element, self-satisfaction and public acknowledgement. If one artist feels that what other artists do and admire is significant, then the kind of "crisis" Cujo seems to describe can be painful. For me it has seemed like the horrible dualistic choice portrayed in many of the above replies: do I stay true to myself and have everybody hate my work, or do I follow the trends and maybe lose myself? Tain't no joke. The above is the writer's opinion and in no way pretends to tell anyone else what Cujo is or is not thinking. That's his right, not mine...
"Maybe the solution is to have a new forum for "Combined Applications", as pnevai suggested in the Lightwave forum?"
This is a good idea to my mind. I choose a gallery for my work based on the application that "feels" dominant int hat image. Usually it is Poser, sometimes Max. Having a Voluntary mixed 3D applications category would give me another option that would often be appropriate.
"Of course, as he also points out, this wouldn't merely encompass Lightwave rendering and postwork, if you used any textures created out of poser, or any props, etc.. then you would also be 'ineligible' for the Poser forum."
This is a "bad" idea.
Poser is all about props and textures made in other programs, so excluding such from the Poser gallery would completely empty that gallery if such were the rule. It would also make the Combined Applications one way too big for the groups.
I agree with soulhuntre in that I usually post in whatever I feel was dominant for that picture. I post in Poser mostly because really my work is mostly about the human side of art and so Poser is where all the emotion of people come from and so I use that. If it's scenic or the human is only a small part of the overall picture, then it goes in Bryce.
Hi, My $0.02: It seems to me there are two camps here, (and elsewhere in the wider world) there are the professionals, people who understand composition, lighting, mood, etc. Classically trained & educated people who can actually draw, (often with graphics tablets to hand) that like to opine that any idiot can render, and that the artistry comes from the initial idea/design, then patching it up afterwards. That the rendering process simply makes the donkey work of creating original works of art easier. Then there are the people, (like me) who use photoshop to entertain small children, (makes a great 'etch a sketch' :) because they couldn't "colour thier way out of a paper bag" even after reading "learn photoshop in 24hrs" and "photoshop for dummies" etc. It's a great program, but I'm not a great artist, I'm not even a crap one... :) I spend hours trying to get poser to produce something that looks as lifelike, (and desirable ;) as possible, without recourse to postwork, simply because, having tried, I know the results always look "touched up" and frequently a worked image looks worse than the straight render they started off as. You can see this in action on a far higher level in the current issue of 3Dworld mag, where some very famous bloke I've never heard of :) opines that there are perhaps only 6 (or so) true "digital artisits" in the world, and the rest of us are just muppets, (to use the vernacular :) One of you lot has written in (enclosing a poser rendered image) citing renderosity as evidence to the contrary, compaining about this elitist attitude. I believe the same war has been raging between "real" artists and photographers since the advent of the camera. I'm happy to be a muppet, humbled as I am occasionally by what I consider to be art when I find it in the galleries, here or elsewhere. I've even been lucky enough to get a few comments from the few images I've put up here. Though it must be said that the single most commented image I've ever posted was one that was actually professionally "worked over" (litterally :) by a mate of mine, who is good with photoshop, over a picture of me that I left "exposed" online, (and subsequently posted to the users gallery at 3dcommune) so there you go, "talent will out" as they say :) I personally don't think it will matter what new forums/galleries you try to set up, most people will still simply click "what's new" in the galleries and look for the T&A shots just as they do now, (God bless 'em :) later jb
To Cujo,
I recently experienced the "Why am I doing this?" crisis that every artist goes through. What's wrong with my art? Why do I bother? How did that image get to the top 20? I was completely frazzled wondering if I am just a no-talented hack that is posting up images that nobody really likes. The competitive nature that is unintentional, but inherent nonetheless brings this home even more. I don't know if it's the fall or what, but it seems many artists are feeling this sudden doubt. You aren't alone.
The good news is is that the crisis is part of the road to self-realization, a road leading to an oasis. Many things you discover in this time will make you a better artist later on and will help you shed that baggage. For me, it was the following...
1> Don't try to compare your work with those of the ring of pinup artists as you don't have a prayer of winning that game until you learn all their techniques. These artists have found a genre that they excel in and are comfortable in. Fortunately for them, it happens to be the kind of work that is popular as sexily clothed women will beat any medium everytime.
For me, I am too creative to get hooked into a particular genre and after trying two or three, I realized that I didn't want to be a pinup artist no matter how popular it was. It just wasn't what I enjoyed. No offense, but I find the whole medium to be nothing but moving mannequins in front of backdrops. While the post is spectacular, it still lacks (at least for me) the innovation and emotion that I demand in my own pictures for me to feel they are worthy of showing. That's not a dig at those artists, just my own personal observation of what I have realized.
2> Explore different styles until you find one that suits you. I am still on that quest, which is why my gallery is a hodge-podge of different things. Don't be afraid to try something that is not in the mainstream. Maybe it won't do as well, but it's very satisfying to create something that has never been seen or is seen in a new light.
3> Learn all you can about the work you want to do. Often I study the artistic qualities of those that I am interested in. Curious as to how this was done or that was done. Many artists will offer to extend info to you if you ask them or point you in the right direction. I've found many I truly admire to be friendly folk, willing to lend a hand. As thip said in another post to shadownet, there's great books on art that one can use to take up the slack as well.
3> In the Poser gallery, though in others as well, the top 20 and page views are little more than marketing and cliques. So much behind the scene hyping and friendship circles go on that these can only be warped, and have little to do with the quality of the work they represent. I've seen the most exquisite works that didn't even come close to the top 20 or to the views you'd expect. My advice, get over it. If people say they like your work, then that's all ya need. How many people saw it isn't as important as what they thought of it. Try to fight the urge to compete, as art is expression, not competition. Look at the recent "fake thumbnails" experiments. 200-300 views, no picture or a bogus one.
4> Critique is not equal to hating your work. This one took me a bit to come to grips with. A comment can sometimes hurt one's ego, but I realized that everyone sees a work differently and as the artist, you don't always see what is right in front of your face, so it's good that people point it out to you. Most times, when they care enough to comment, it is because they find the work to be promising, but just off in some way. It also does not mean that all suggestions are valid for your picture. They should be weighed with what you, as the artist, are trying to portray and whether you feel the comment is of use. I feel as though I ruined one of my pictures in trying to live up to every suggestion, and so I'm more careful as to what I do with the suggestions I get.
The bottom line here Cujo31, is to stay true to yourself and to your work. Enjoy the quest, the learning, the fun, and the community of artists here and relax. You'll find a much less stressful existence once the realizations set in. Hope this helps...
That was well spoken, ShadowWind It brought to mind a Flash movie competition I was just in. People were jockeying for top position in the viewer rankings, even though judges would award the actual prizes. Many 'mystery' voters popped up, who had never been at the site before and who were trashing all the top entries, except for one, which they praised. I realized that there may be many reasons for critisizm of your work. There are also many different 'tastes' among viewers. I advised another contestant, who had been trashed, to not try and satisfy his critics. My advice was; "If you change your art because of critisizm, you are not an artist, you are a conformist" I'm not suggesting that we can't learn from the comments of others, only that we shouldn't change something unless it's to please ourselves.. not someone else. That's the only way to stay true to your vision and ever hope to create something unique.
"It seems to me there are two camps here, (and elsewhere in the wider world) there are the professionals, people who understand composition, lighting, mood, etc."
More than that - and many people are a mix. For example I do design and animation for a living... it took me a long time to get my skills together and I understand a lot of that stuff... but I am not an artist in the way >I< think an artist is.
Then again, neither are most artists :) A friend of mine spends weekends with Boris V (the Boris, as it were) and I remember how crushed I was when I found out Boris used reference photos - I thought that was cheating for a long time.
Again, this isn't to put anyone down - I would >love< to have 1/3 the talent that Skool has for example, and I love the images themselves. I just don't have the skills. Could I leanr to be a passable post artist? Sure. But I think the time it would take >me< is better spent figuring out how to get the lighting in Max to have that quality :) As such I love to when I can do something in the renderer itself.
In other words, I get a LOT more jazzed by a good hair prop than I do a tutorial on how to paint hair :)
Every artist uses reference materials. Michelangelo used to study cadavers by removing the skin and looking at the musculature (yuck). But it helped him in the creation of his art and gave him a better understanding of what he was trying to accomplish. And I don't know too many artist's that don't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy somewhere in their library ;). Laurie
When I look at a painting in an art gallery it doesn't really matter to me if the artist used acryilics and a pallet knife or oils and a fine camel hair brush. What I experiance from the painting is its overall effect which is a little different for each viewer. The same goes for the gallery here, the tools are not as important as the end results. Sure, it's great to have someone ooh or aah over your work, but is that really the reason you spent the time creating the image? We create art because it has meaning to us and even if no one ever comments on it, that meaning is still there. The gallery should not be thought of as a competition but as away to share the spark that exists in all of us with the whole community. Thorgrim
soulhuntre- You have a friend who actually knows Boris? Thats cool. On the rest of this topic. I don't know an artist nor have I ever met one, who at several points in their journey, hasn't thought,"Man, I suck!" However I have seen many things the mainstream considers to be art, that does suck, and is not art.(ie: poop in a jar, ect...)
I rarely do post work and render in Poser, this is well known. Poser is a tool. I have tried to model in Carrara and RayDream. I have tried to paint in Corel and Photoshop. And I have failed miserably. In Poser I manage some margin of success. If I could better use the tools I have, I would use them. I think that it is the end result that matters, and a good artist uses the tools he/she has to best obtain that end. Having said all that. I enjoy seeing pictures done in Poser (this means rendered as well) with no post work. It gives me a much better idea of what is possible in that application. This is often hard to tell though when something is posted in the Poser Gallery, but rendered in Bryce, and touched up in Photoshop, etc., unless it is mentioned in the post. So that would be my request, if you post to the Poser gallery and it is not a straight Poser pic say so. No biggie. Actually, having seen the kinds of renders Bryce and Vue can do has made me really want to get my hands on one or both of these programs. So arranged in Poser, rendered in Bryce (or whatever) can be very informative.
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I am a huge of fan of this site, and absolutely love coming here to look at all the beautiful art that is cranked out by various artists.... But does a image have to be post worked to death before it makes the Top 20 or gets feedback???? I just seem to see a growing trend that everything has to post worked.... What happened to trying to get the best that you can out the program with out rendering it in something else???? or photoshopping it to death? I LOVE the art don't get me wrong or think that I am b*tching.... Just wondered what others feelings were about this??? Thanks... puts on nomex fire proof suit Flame away.... Cujo