*""more categories"

What would you suggest?

-JH."*

What is wrong with a commercial post about a Poser product in the Poser forum? Who's really complaining? Whoever they are they really should speak up and explain why this is such a pain for them.

I don't always have the time to visit the product showcase forums or galleries. There are a number of forums here and I suspect I'm not the only one that merchants - Renderosity Merchants - are missing. The store isn't set up very well either to catch items I might be interested in. In 3D Accessories there are 310 pages of what's new and no helpful categories. If I want to find a texture I'd like to be able to look in "textures". If I'm reading the Poser forum, I'd like to see Poser products as well as the free stuff, and WIP's.

What really is the complaint about products in the poser forum? Competition? Jealousy? Over saturation? Request that merchants limit products to 2 or 3 per member per week and suggest to all merchants that they rise above competition and they are not the only one's out there with a product.

Seems to me that Renderosity is making problems where there shouldn't be any.

"who made this list of allowable sites"

There is no list of allowable sites, just no DIRECT links to "e-commerce or subscription pages".

"How do you make everyone happy in asituation like this? All the people- the ones who want to post helpful links, the ones who want to just learn, the merchants- everyone? If someone suddenly told you "okay, it's your call" what would you do?" A fair and intelligent question from Micheleh, so I'll start from there: I'd let people go back to posting ads in the Poser Forum, on the grounds that they activate an "Advertisement" flag, just like the "Nudity" and "Violence" flags already in place. That way anyone who doesn't want to see ads can clearly tell which threads to avoid, and yet anyone who may interested can see them. Any attempt to simply remove mention of commercial products from the regular forum was doomed from the start, especially when it involves Poser, which, to be frank, is pretty much worthless without third-party add-ons. And sticking merchants in some forum ghetto is a mistake that will damage Renderosity far more than all of their competitors combined could ever hope to. An "Advertisement" flag should satisy both sides, and it shouldn't be too hard to put in place. As for the Product Showcase forum, it should be just that: a showcase, a place for people to post a more extended look at their products, as opposed to a merchant concentration camp. Also, it should still be handy for people who are planning to do some shopping and want to take a peak at the newest stuff. If I were a vendor, I'd definitely post an in-depth look at my newest products in the Product Showcase forum. I think it would be a mistake for vendors NOT to post there. But at the same time, I'd want to drop a notice in the Poser Forum for the folks (like me) who don't go to the PS forum but may still whip out the credit card if they stumble across something unusually interesting. So what do you think? One thing I must add (no pun intended), though: the people complaining about ads in the Poser Forum would do well to remember that our vendors are not coincidentally some of our most knowledgeble members, and if their ads do clutter up the forum at times, the knowledge they share with us in answering our questions and even creating tutorials more than makes up for any inconvenience you may feel their ads pose. Renderosity is a valuable resource, but it's in these people that that value lies.

Sounds like a cool idea X2000. Workable too. Violence and Nudity are already in place, what's another tag? Vendors get to post the "heads up" that drums up business without flooding the place with adverts and wips and lookee here posts. I like it, which probably means it's doomed to failure. Anything I like usually falls at the first fence. :(

I beg to differ based off of the following quote: "Posting a link to www.uvmapper.com or www.daz3d.com is fine and so is www.soft-rabbit.com, but no direct links to e-commerce or subscription pages." Isn't Daz an e-commerce site? I know soft-rabbit is totally free with nothing sold there, so that fits. uvmapper.com is starting to grey this line. Does he not sell the pro version from his site? So based off of the inclusion of DAZ being allowed how can you say that there is no allowable list when one was given here? Granted I only see one item in that list that goes against the e-commerce rule fully. With this I have to ask again who made this list of allowable sites and by what criteria? I can understand soft-rabbit, uvmapper is a little grey but I can accept it, but Daz is a full e-commerce site. Maybe one item doesn't make a list, and with that you would be correct when you say there is no list. But that would lead to another question as to why one e-commerce site but not another? You see, I'm just asking for an explaination of the criteria and everytime I ask this I never get an answer.

Okay now I see your confusion, you don't differentiate between a "Page" and a "Site" - there is a difference.

Hope that clears it up.

My question is only just one.. and personally addressed to JeffH! You took the time to reply so many times here .. don't I deserve that email reply since the message was sent at YOUR IM request? Or is my reply hitting too much on the nail head and "administration" or that clown who composed the alteration haven't come up yet with the appropriate excuse to it? Just wondering AND waiting.. Rena

Maybe I should say a bit more.. :-)

A "Site" has "Pages" and while it's true a site can consist of only one page, if that one page happens to be for purchasing then it's not acceptable.

Hi Rena,

I'll get to your personal e-mail as soon as I can.

-Jeff

*"Okay now I see your confusion, you don't differentiate between a "Page" and a "Site" - there is a difference.

Hope that clears it up."*

*"Maybe I should say a bit more.. :-)

A "Site" has "Pages" and while it's true a site can consist of only one page, if that one page happens to be for purchasing then it's not acceptable."*

Clear as mud. So is R'osity getting rid of it's "Webring Top 15" and links to Daz and Curious Labs? It's hypocritical to ban some yet allow others.
Still doesn't answer the very valid question of "why?".
Is it competition Renderosity doesn't want? Because Renderosity is just a compilation.

So you allow me to just post once a week to announce my freebie... how generous of all of you!!!! I bow to your courtesy! How generous of you! And I'm particularly glad that you chose the last update post as the "commercial" tagged one.. it IS what brought all this up, right? Too much is just more than you can take... Jesus.. you act and react like children! You can be read like an open book.. and it's so sad as you're supposed to be grown ups and responsible people! :o( Avoiding the subject you know.. the questions and issues set by all of us doesn't help much! It just shows clearly to everybody else how swiftly you avoid to reply to the "real" problem and the questions being asked! I guess I'll have to keep on asking till I do get them.. so: 1. WHO is the one who decided suddenly the TOS update? 2. How many subs sites are bugging you in the Poser Forum that they were considered they had to be tossed out? 3. How long is the list of complains for subs sites announcements? Finally..a suggestion.. make a subscription sites forum if you want to shovel us some place... but DON"T mix sub sites like katharina's and poserstyle with the wolves.. as we are niether lambs but not wild cats either to survive in there! Rena Rena

Ok I am a bit confused here but I am wondering. Ok often Rena or Steve posts "previews" under the poser forum? Is that allowed? I actually found out about poserworld via the poser forum and I love it! Also what if I as a person not assoociated with poserworld wanted to say a particular item is kewl and I wanted to say where I got the stuff for those intrested? I just wondering what has changed? I mean I have seen for months PWFW's updates and I am sure it has been much longer. It can't be the first time a moderator has noticed PWFW posts. Also is it ok to post addons to pay items? Would that be considered an ad in freestuff?

just something i've noticed here thats got me more baffled about the whole thing, if i go to the poser forum the first thing that loads is the top bar with the date and time online etc on it, the second thing that loads is A banner advert!.......Steve

Keep your flock of merchants together... but don't mix us up with the store stuff as we don't belong and have nothing to do there as subscription sites! Was that so much of a bright idea to come up with and keep everybody happy and no complains around the block of where to find something or where to post something???? Rena

Thanks for deleting my post JeffH, yes in a way I was playing a game, though probably not the one you think. However, you didn't answer the questions made in that post. I would appreciate an answer to those questions as they might clear some of the confusion.

Now I do know that I don't see things... I saw that post of yours Questor but didn't notice it was deleted... Jeff.. don't let this get out of hand..Please! I BEG you not to play dirty! It helps NONE!

Rena, Jeff was not playing dirty just doing what he is supposed to do under tos guidelines. In my examples I posted a direct link to a commercial area, that is not allowed. Call it an experiment if you will. Jeff thought I was being a smart arse but followed TOS and deleted the post because of that link. Nothing dirty happening, but he didn't answer the questions in my post.

"... Links to DAZ, RuntimeDNA and other places that sell items ONE by one & heavy commercial ARE allowed!!! At least those charge an item of what it would sell to the store too.. they don't offer bargains! That's what's pissed me off!" Rena, I am not posting this to start trouble but to simply clarify that Runtime DNA posts a host of bargains in their freebie section weekly. Neither are we allowed to post any commercial stuff in the Poser Forum, we post in the Showcase Forum and gallery. There are two of us working in a dining room, and working very hard to bring good quality poser products. Thanks, Syyd

I had hoped to clear things up with all of this so I'll try one more time.

This is an example only, not a specific quote from any sort of list or policy:

"www.daz3d.com" as an example would be fine, but a link to their store or inside their store to a specific product would not be.

-Jeff

So, basically, if I click on a link in the forum, and run smack into a notice saying "you can't look at this page unless you're a member", that's verboten. (Also aggrivating!) ;]

Having one product (donation) in the Marketplace, and a few on a subs site, I thought I'd chime in. Thanx to Rena for bringing the subject to our attention. Personally, I think allowing "infomercials" on the standard Forums is vital to the community, and to R'osity as a site. Trying to divert "ad posts" to another Forum is a waste of time for members and admins alike. We all want all the Poser info we can get - that's why we COME here, folks - and we all learn to recognize the names of pure propagandists real quick. If you consider that o Poser is a commercial product (showcasing DAZ P4 models, too) o A LOT of the Poser stuff we all want to know about (and discuss in the Forums) is commercial (From Curious and DAZ to the humblest subs site) o Many, many "ad posts" turn into an idea and wish list for improvements and new products as members begin to reply - to the benefit of all of us o ANY Poser product (whether from the MarketPlace or elsewhere) that makes a Poser user happy makes said Poser user continue Poser-ing - which most likely includes frequent visits to R'osity. ... trying to remove all commercial-oriented info seems a waste time, information, creativity and energy. So please reconsider - we can all tell hype from info. The only time I ever made a commercial post (plugging the donation item), I titled it "Shameless Plug...", and noone seemed offended by it ;o)

www.daz3d.com" as an example would be fine, but a link to their store or inside their store to a specific product would not be Thank you Jeff. Essentially then to focus this to this particular case a link to www.poserworld.com or www.poserworld.com/free/ is acceptable, but a link to their subscription login page is not. Or a link to www./item/itempage.htm is unacceptable, but linking to the home page is acceptable. One final question as I understand the rest now. I think. What if the home page "is" the commercial page? This is extremely rare admittedly but I know at least two names of vendors who have a store on their front page. I assume that would come under the commercial link policy but also makes pointing anyone there kinda difficult. Though I suppose direct linking could be taken to IM instead of in the forum. Is IM disallowed?

heyas; one thing: you can't say a subscription site is non commercial. poserworld went to subscription format to support bandwidth costs alone. that's only one example. what's that site/group you can subscribe to for like $500 a year and get all the models? (is it the de espona site?) that's a subscription, and that is NOT non-profit. if you need to pay to get the models (pay the model price, pay a subscription price, pay a membership fee), then i agree with the definition 'commercial site.' maybe it should read 'for pay' site, if that is more clear. i think (i COULD be wrong) you are all over-reacting to the no-commercial linking in the poser forum rule. or else the rule is over-stated. heck, in poserforum, you ARE allowed to direct a member to a commercial site (with full link), if the product/site answers their question or need. (unless of course, the link is to renderosity, but we won't get into THAT.) so, charging in and starting a topic like BUY MY STUFF: bad. answering something like 'where can i get a ____' with your commercial site (or anybody else's): okay. if that interpretation is wrong, then something's a little screwy with the tos. as to why the 'advertising' stuff was moved to a separate forum; i believe the main reason was the volume of posts being generated on the poser forum. yes, it might be helpful for newbies to learn who's selling what, but the volume of posts was rather burying the 'help me make poser work' newbie questions. i don't like being shoved into the showcase forum, either, but i have to admit the avalanche in the poser forum section was getting to be too much. the advertising tag idea might work. but people would still have to scroll through the pages of advertising messages, trying to find their non-ad help. so i dunno.

Well Bloodsong, the Poser Forum is a very busy one at any rate, ads or not. But if not just an advertisement flag, how about a filter, like the nudity filter in the gallery? That way anyone bothered by the ads wouldn't even have to see the threads at all. I don't know how much trouble it would be to set something like that up for the forum, but I think in the long run it would spare the admin far more headaches than it would cause them to create it, and certainly keep everyone happier than the current situation ever will. What do you think, folks? Is this feasible/desirable/under consideration?

BUY MY STUFF: bad. answering something like 'where can i get a ____' with your commercial site (or anybody else's): okay From what I can understand from the very slim posts from Jeff, this is fine provided you don't link to the product page itself, but only to a plain home page - and no cheating by putting products on it but a link to a store is ok from that page provided you can't actually get the item in question from that page. Or something like that. :) Same applies to vendors here. They can link to their market place home page, but not to the product page. Daffy isn't it?

But I don't see subscription sites as "commerical" because they (well, PoserWorld at any rate, and I'm sure others, too) don't "cash in" on the profits. Their subscription fees go to bandwidth, not to a tri-level home in the country with a Porsche in the driveway (or whatever). Commercial, in my opinion, is when someone's bank account gets larger from the money coming in. I don't think Steve and Rena are getting rich from the subscriptions fees. Just another two cents worth. Melanie

Well finally Jeff has answered my main question simply and plainly. This is what I have repeatedly asked for, tried to give examples of, etc. Now I hope that Rena gets hers answered as plainly. Jeff, finally I thank you for the clarification. I do have one suggestion though. If this is going to be a rule then it definatly does need to be in the TOS in some fashion. Might want to save this post to get an idea of wording.

"But I don't see subscription sites as "commerical" because they (well, PoserWorld at any rate, and I'm sure others, too) don't "cash in" on the profits. Their subscription fees go to bandwidth, not to a tri-level home in the country with a Porsche in the driveway..." Let me offer another scenario. Joe has a site that is, by this definituon, non-commercial. It gets just enough to pay the bills. However, he still has to pay his mortgage, bills, etc, so he has a 9-5 (or more) job. Upside- everything is free, "mom and pop" atmosphere. Downside- less time to concentrate on keeping the site up to date, running, and interesting. Dave has another site. People can give things away, or sell them at a profit. Because they have a larger operating budget, there can be people employed to be available at all times, and site improvements and maintenance can be done. Upside- better service. Downside- a need for a more professional attitude, especially if the site reaches a certain size. Sometimes the "little voice" gets missed. I, and the others really want this site to be great for everyone. If you have complaints, we want to hear them. Just please don't say "that's it, I'm leaving" without at least saying "Look, this is what I don't like. What can you do for me?" Michelle (who wants to know where that site is whose employees drive Porsches.)

OK Michelle.... I have a complaint :) I'd like the PWFW updates put back in the Poser Forum! Now, what can you do for me? Sassy <<< Who invites everyone else who thinks this is a valid complaint to join in :)

Michelle, I know for a fact that RuntimeDNA (Syyd & Colm) do not have a tri-level home or drive a porsche. They are like a lot of us, a standard home, with a very old car in the driveway. In fact you should see mine...the rust and the bird droppings (no covered driveway) is the only thing holding the car together. If u do find the that site where the employees drive porsches...let me know :)

I will! I'll IM you from the Riviera. ;] Well, if I'm not totally off base, any site can put their site link in the Poser Forum, as long as it's a link to the main page, and it isn't in a blatant "Buy this now now!" ad. Is that right, Jeff?

Actually, Rena and Steve's threads are more like pictures and words like "This week's updates are ready for download" which doesn't constitute a "Buy this now" ad. So again, they should be allowed to post in the Poser Forum. :) Sassy

I hope this is my LAST post in this thread. My questions have been asked from all the sources I've been in conduct with as well as from this page.. so here are the answers : 1. WHO is the one who decided suddenly the TOS update? Jeff himself as he has admitted privately. Why? He couldn't take up the heat of the merchants anylonger.. Steve & Rena are not important - as was put - but merchants ARE! (that he didn't admit himself but I've managed to find out from a very reliable source) 2. How many subs sites are bugging you in the Poser Forum that they were considered they had to be tossed out? Very few.. but the merchants were the ones who pushed for those to be sent away because we're still competition that kills their sales the way they see it and because they've persuaded Jeff that he shows favoritism by allowing us to post in the forum where THEY can't! 3. How long is the list of complains for subs sites announcements? Long enough..but mostly by merchants who hate our gutts.. Jealousy has been one of the biggest sins and the strongest motives.. I'm not surprised! So here we have at last the final picture! Jeff is not to blame neither a coward, he just got badly cornered and pushed beyond his limits.. nobody can stand up so much extra heat, especially on the lousy moderator compensation fee.. so I don't hold the slightest grudge against him, on the contrary, I sympathize with him for having to deal with green eyed monsters like that.. I'd never wish to be in his shoes! The merchants have got what they want and I'm not surprised as those are the ones that fill in the cashbook! They've managed to excile the enemy in a place that dramatically fewer will have a chance to see her posts and know what's also available or has been created.. that was their original intention, they got it granted! Their ultimate wish "I disappear" almost has been granted as an extra gift by me! As I don't intend to post PWFW previews but only updates in the Merchants Forum from now on as it's obvious that Michelle, Jeff or whoever else don't pay attention to my own request for an extra forum just for 3d party sites that have nothing to do with the store.. and I'm not surprised as we are not important to them so why would they listen? After all we represent only 500 members of Renderosity so far... too much a minority to bother with from the endless members of this site! I'm just wondering how many merchants can say in this place that they have 500 individual customers themselves.., just a side thought, so don't pay attention to that trivial part! For your info, yeah, I've become so rich from PWFW that I still keep my full time job that consumes my time from 9 to 5 while at the same tim I'm suffering from a carpal wrist syndrome caused by the endless hours of the mouse usage! The doctor suggested to give up typing and as much as possible my PC activity to avoid surgery.. Yet I ignore his orders.. You see how greedy I am too? VL grin If I was getting rich I would go for Bondaware software as well instead of having to edit our pages one by one which is hell for my wrists... but I guess I'm too stingy, right? VL grin This thread and issue has also helped me to find out who I can trust around here and who are snakes I'm sheltering at my own chest. What I mean? I've got inside info of WHO is the merchant that's made the biggest fuss and put the hottest heat on Jeff to have my posts removed... and it just so happens that he/she is one I've offered graciously a free lifetime membership to PWFW as a token of friendship! Feeling twice a fool I guess.. but that's how people are.. I try to come to terms with that even at this late age! BUT.. taking all the advice and info provided from this thread (which for your info I'm also saving as proof for future reference and guidelines of what's allowed and what not)I WILL post my previews in the Poser Fourm as I've always done! NO.. I'm not rebelling! I'll just abide by your rules and let's see if you have any of those posts moved out and on what grounds... where there's a will, there's a way as my late dad so wisely used to say! What I mean? You'll find out soon! :o) Final conclusion of mine : Jack Krammer had done Poser and Renderosity and this community.. the biggest harm than anyone else..I think by now most of you agree! At least old timers who know exactly what I'm talking about! Rena (going back at last to her spring cleaning and weekend chores, as she's so darn rich from her "commercial" site that she can't afford a maid despite her wrists condition)

PS: Just an updated correction to the above statement.. as getting out of here I've found this in my inbox! From: "Allen Harkleroad" To: "steve shanks" , Date: 04/27/02 01:43:17 Subject: 1001 subscribers as of 4/27/2002 @ 1:42 am!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well we broke 1000 subscribers tonight. ;-) Allen Yes.. we are not a tiny bit important.. we just speak for ourselves....

Our posts are totally indifferent to the majority of the poser forum visitors.. VL grin

"any site can put their site link in the Poser Forum, as long as it's a link to the main page, and it isn't in a blatant "Buy this now now!" ad. " As a point of information, no it isn't. That's a matter of public record in Comm Ideas forum [and probably poser forum still unless the post was deleted]: AprilYSH was told that she couldn't post links to her download page for her free items in our freestuff or in forum because they linked to a competeing site - 3DArena. And at the time, that was an unlisted "policy" found posted nowheres on this site. Don't take my assertion - look it up.

What a sad thread... R'osity is going downhill and fast, no wonder people are looking for a new "home". Rena, I am proud to be one of those 1000 subscribers and I love seeing all the update posts. Keep your chin up! :)

OK Rena...let's take it a step further (Freedom of Information Act here in the US g) WHICH merchants? a list will be sufficient, doesn't need to be in alphabetical order I want to know because I will not buy from them again. And seeing as it's my money we're talking about here, I think, legally, the information can not be withheld

Ironbear, care to link us to that thread? This is a line I think needs to be taken there rather then here.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=466652

Rena, Please be careful in making generalizations. I am a merchant here and a subscriber at PWFW and I have NEVER complained about PWFW announcements in the Poser forum. I'm not amerchant to make lots of money - more because I could not afford the bandwidth to gvie anyway certain things so rather than not make them available at all - I've put them in the MP. What money I make goes to paying for bandwidth so that I can host some freestuff , subscriptions to sites like PWFW and buying stuff from other people. I too work a fulltime day job and also help take care of my aging parents and my 2 year old nephew. I like seeing announcements from PWFW and other places and I also like seeing merchant announcements. Both are interesting and informative and provide me with information I want. I think it is silly to try to restrict all posts having to do with any monetary transations to a specific forum. Announcements about Poser products belong in the poser forum. IF people object to seeing them they, having a radio button to label them as adverts is a much better solution than quarantining them off where only the experienced people know where to look for them. Daio

Daio.. you forget something.. I am a recent merchant at the store myself as well! :o) Not for profit of course, just to save my poor credit card as well as steve's from getting overloaded over our addictive hobby! :o) No.. I think it's clear that this generalization is not addressed to all merchants.. just a very few who have seen the whole situation completeley differently from the majority of the rest of us! To them, winning at all and competition is what makes them thrive, no matter how, no matter at what cost.. we have a greek saying about these kind of people.. those who walk on dead bodies to achieve their goals! So I"m just talking about them only and nobody else.. No.. I won't share that specific person's name with anybody.. it's between the person who has trusted the info to me and myself.. it will never go further as I've promised and I DO keep my promises! It was a suspicion of mine judging from other coincedences, I'm just glad that person put his head in the sack to reveal that it IS so, despite how dangerous it was for him! So no.. I won't betray his unexpected trust by saying WHO in public.. it's good enough that I know for myself and I can do my best for self protection from now on. Competition is not everything.. I never believed in that ..I never will! It's the fun of Poser.. it's the fun of creativity, it's the good enthusiastic feeling that makes your day once you achieve the effect you were after and just wish to share with the rest around who will understand and know what you mean! It's also being in love with hard work and never believing what you've done is enough.. so you go on exploring further! THIS is what poser has been to me up to this day.. this is what it'll be till the day I'll have to quit..hopefully when I'm dead! VL grin So please don't all of you who happen to be merchants get offended, as I do know people are not all the same! There have been lots I've bought from and never regretted, and even more who've turned to be nice, generous people and friends of mine.. but unfortunately there are also a few who are not what they seem to be.. it's just sad to realize they can influence the way this place is run sooo much... Politics and Power.. the next couple of worse plagues after commercialism.. and they have all found shelter in Renderosity.. pretty chilly a thought..hum? VL grin Rena

Well, that's the thing Rena... I could do business cutthroat, and well. I had the training... in advertising where "thanking all the little people you climbed over on the way to the top" is the way of things. I'd prefer to never deal that way though. Isn't worth it.

Ironbear.. one thing I've learnt good in my whole life is this.. be always yourself and never pretend of being something else! If you just do that..you're always safe and in great terms with your own self first of all! :o) You're so darn right, it's NOT worth it any other way! But takes some character to realize that I'm afraid! VL grin

Bravo, Daio! I totally agree. I also think the radio button is the solution to fix this situation. If people don't like nudity and violence, they have a tag to watch for. If they don't like ads for new items, they would know what to avoid, although I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to see what new items we can look forward to. Isn't that what the whole concept of this forum is for in the first place? To give information? What's the next thing they'll ban from the Poser Forum, explanations on how to fix Vicki's eyebrows because teaching is a profession and we can't have that! I also notice that a majority of the folks posting here in this thread are on PWFW's side. I have to say that I find it difficult to understand why the admins and mods have sided with a single complaint to make a decision. Shouldn't they go with the majority? Why are they letting one or two merchants bully them into creating a policy that offends the rest of us. I never visit the Showcase forum, because I never remember it's there, so I'd never hear of any of the updates, other than the e-mails that Steve and Rena send out to the members. I'd never get to see what the new items look like until they're actually posted on their site. I love the previews and I really want to continue seeing them here in the Poser forum, where they belong. This place is getting flooded with too many little forums for too many individual topics. I think maybe it's finally getting too big for its own good. Rena and Steve, keep up the great work. You two are among the best. Melanie

snicker That's the problem kiddo... wouldn't be pretending. I can be a ruthless SOB with no problems except that I enjoy it too much. It's the enjoying it too much that scares me - that's why I avoid it. ;]

I have been a member of Renderosity for quite sometime. I also belong to PWFW. I don't post messages because I am a little shy and I suppose kinda backward. I hate that one of my first posts is because of the situation we find ourselves in at the time. I have to back Rena and Steve though in this cause. I enjoy the update anouncments and seeing what is being worked on at PWFW. If my opinion means anything, I can't understand the problem with PWFW posts. Most people that belong to PWFW as far as I know, also buy from renderosity MP. I know I do. They are not hurting any other sales that I can see. People are going to buy what they want regardless. From the time I have been reading the forum, I thought we we're all one in our poser interest and was suppose to help each other. I don't understand how alienating good and honest members is in any way helping each other. I also can't understand how one vender can overrule the majority. I am behind Rena and Steve on this one all the way. Thanks Rena and Steve for all you have done for the people that love poser.

Melanie, in case you hadn't noticed your not allowed to discuss Poser gallery images in the Poser forum either. I don't entirely understand that but what the hey, it's easy enough to take the discussion to another site that does allow some freedom and there's enough choices out there now to suit almost anyone's taste in forum. Unfortunately we can't post links to them as they're almost all commercially oriented, but they're easy to find. I can in a way understand the restriction of posts regarding the market place in Poser Forum because some people don't understand "reasonable behaviour", so flood the place with multiple threads on the same topic rather than revisiting one they started earlier. But, enough noise was made that the vendors were segregated. In a way it's not that bad, if they're allowed to post a link into Poser forum to their product display in the vendor gallery when someone asks for something they can take a good look at the renders in there, and I suppose find a link to the store front. This helps a bit so the Poser chat doesn't get buried. I really fail to understand though why vendors can't announce products in Poser forum. after all, that's where their customer base lives. To ban other sites and linking is patently ridiculous. That's centrism gone insane. If a site cannot link to it's own pages, then there's no reason to maintain a favour link back to here. It's that kind of attitude that kills sites. This might be currently the largest forum site available for 3d users but it's not the only one. How long can it really survive by isolation, segregation and centrism? Good examples of this kind of thing and the damage they do is the Paramount witch hunt of Star Trek fan sites that did untold damage to them and the inane legislation enforced by TSR that prevented AD&D fans from creating sites, so well designed that TSR themselves couldn't have one until recently. Do people not learn from this kind of silliness? New users search the net for Poser and poser related stuff. It won't be long before Renderosity no longer appears at the top of the list and marketing only works to a certain level before the benefits no longer apply. Upsetting large numbers of people is counter-productive. OK, so new members are signing up every day. Big deal, so too are they signing up elsewhere. Not because any one site is better than another but to get information and freebies from multiple sources. It's that healthy form of greed that makes life fun rather than the bitter sour tasting spite of a certain few who want to own everything and control everything. Whatever the long term outcome of this particular fiasco is going to be remains to be seen but I doubt it's the end of the argument even if Rena does have her answers and a way of operating inside TOS. Thing is, the more the PTB step on the user base to create their Disney paradise, the more harm they're doing to themselves. Unfortunately there's too many pc guardianistas around now and they want total control, their way, regardless. A lot of good people have been lost to this community over the years from a variety of bullshit. It's a shame that lessons seem to be very hard to learn and memories are short when a little bit of power is up for grabs. How many more have to be alienated and/or driven away before someone actually learns something? In fairness the renderosity site does not belong to the public. It is a private business concern and the owners may run it into the ground and oblivion anyway they wish. Just so long as they remember that without people, without the experience of some of the site members there is nothing except a fancy set of pages, some fancy code and a waste of space. I only hope that the other forums out there watch this site carefully and learn from it's sometimes glaring errors of judgement and do not repeat these mistakes, or other mistakes of the past that are so rapidly arriving here. Not of course that my thoughts matter a damn, I'm just one person, one piece of noise who really isn't very active around here anymore. Can't imagine why.

My first preview in full competence to the new rules has been posted guys.. in the POSER FORUM! :o) Let's see now if it stays there .. and just in case it gets moved, I want same as you.. detailed explanations on WHAT grounds.. so we can get back here! LOL Hope not to see you soon! VL grin

"Do people not learn from this kind of silliness?" Generally not. Never overestimate the human ability to do the same thing over and over expecting different results - this time. But at least this can serve a useful function to someone - as a bad example. ************ "They got a message from the Action Man "I'm happy, hope you're happy too"